Existence Of Abrahamic God

[prakash.s.bagga]

We should have a very clear concept regarding the meaning of the reference of DUALITY
In Gurbani the reference is for the DUALITY of Thoughts.This is related to living with DUAL THOUGHTS Of CREATOR.
Nowhere Gurbani negates the Dual Character of SINGLE CREATOR.
Let us understand what actually Duality of thoughts is.?

Living with concept of GuRU and GOD is Duality of thoughts Our thought is required to
be the word GuRU only .How one can think of GuRU {WITHFORM}and GOD{WithoutFORM} together.

Like thinking of any figure other than EKANKAAR is Duality as per Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[spnadmin]

parkash.s.bagga ji

Thanks for adding your clarification.

Let us give a thought to some of the quotes from Gurbani as



1.......Tum Mat Pita Hum Barak Tere

2......HARi Ji Mata,HARi Ji Pita HAR Ji Pratipalak

3.....MeRa Mat Pita HARi Raaiyaa

We can see that the use of words Mata and PITA in Gurbani and these words are the references for some Masculine and Fiminie Character of the CREATOR.
Is it not So.

No it is not so. Because in the shabad with the memorable words Tu meera pita, Tu meera mata, on Ang 103, Guru says:

ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਤਾ ॥
तूं मेरा पिता तूंहै मेरा माता ॥
Ŧūʼn merā piṯā ṯūʼnhai merā māṯā.
You are my Father, and You are my Mother.

But Guruji also says in the next line,

ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਬੰਧਪੁ ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਭ੍ਰਾਤਾ ॥
तूं मेरा बंधपु तूं मेरा भ्राता ॥
Ŧūʼn merā banḏẖap ṯūʼn merā bẖarāṯā.
You are my Relative, and You are my Brother.

And Guruji follows up in the same shabad with:

ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਖਾ ਸਭਨੀ ਥਾਈ ਤਾ ਭਉ ਕੇਹਾ ਕਾੜਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
Ŧūʼn merā rākẖā sabẖnī thā▫ī ṯā bẖa▫o kehā kāṛā jī▫o. ||1||
You are my Protector everywhere; why should I feel any fear or anxiety? ||1

You left a lot out. And by your logic, as below:

3......In Gurbani the CREATOR is a pair of two opposite characters whereas the word GOD being Singular can not be used to represent a pair.

given the shabad on Ang 45, Akaal has a 5 in one nature which is starting to sound very Vedantic to me. But that is what happens when tuks are quoted out of context of a whole shabad. On Ang 131, Guruji likens Akaal to a mountain, which is true.

Alas you did not post the full shabad. Please do so in the future.

But to make a stronger point, let's look at a similar and related shabad where the point is made clear by Guruji. Akaal does not have 2 parts or 3 parts or 5 parts or 1000 parts, but rather There is only One. When we say He is pura/poora/puraan/pooran we mean not only perfect, but perfect in the sense of whole, complete, unbroken. There is no breakout into parts. Tuks that seem relevant to this discussion are in bold font.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 5.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:

ਇਕੁ ਪਛਾਣੂ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਇਕੋ ਰਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
Ik pacẖẖāṇū jī▫a kā iko rakẖaṇhār.
The One is the Knower of all beings; He alone is our Savior.

ਇਕਸ ਕਾ ਮਨਿ ਆਸਰਾ ਇਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
Ikas kā man āsrā iko parāṇ aḏẖār.
The One is the Support of the mind; the One is the Support of the breath of life.

ਤਿਸੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
Ŧis sarṇā▫ī saḏā sukẖ pārbarahm karṯār. ||1||
In His Sanctuary there is eternal peace. He is the Supreme Lord God, the Creator. ||1||

ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਉਪਾਵ ਤਿਆਗੁ ॥
Man mere sagal upāv ṯi▫āg.
O my mind, give up all these efforts.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਆਰਾਧਿ ਨਿਤ ਇਕਸੁ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Gur pūrā ārāḏẖ niṯ ikas kī liv lāg. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Dwell upon the Perfect Guru each day, and attach yourself to the One Lord. ||1||Pause||

ਇਕੋ ਭਾਈ ਮਿਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਇਕੋ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ॥
Iko bẖā▫ī miṯ ik iko māṯ piṯā.
The One is my Brother, the One is my Friend. The One is my Mother and Father.

ਇਕਸ ਕੀ ਮਨਿ ਟੇਕ ਹੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਦਿਤਾ ॥
Ikas kī man tek hai jin jī▫o pind ḏiṯā.
The One is the Support of the mind; He has given us body and soul.

ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਤਾ ॥੨॥
So parabẖ manhu na visrai jin sabẖ kicẖẖ vas kīṯā. ||2||
May I never forget God from my mind; He holds all in the Power of His Hands. ||2||

ਘਰਿ ਇਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਇਕੋ ਥਾਨ ਥਨੰਤਰਿ ਆਪਿ ॥
Gẖar iko bāhar iko thān thananṯar āp.
The One is within the home of the self, and the One is outside as well. He Himself is in all places and interspaces.

ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਾਪਿ ॥
Jī▫a janṯ sabẖ jin kī▫e āṯẖ pahar ṯis jāp.
Meditate twenty-four hours a day on the One who created all beings and creatures.

ਇਕਸੁ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਸੋਗ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ॥੩॥
Ikas seṯī raṯi▫ā na hovī sog sanṯāp. ||3||
Attuned to the Love of the One, there is no sorrow or suffering. ||3||

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥
Pārbarahm parabẖ ek hai ḏūjā nāhī ko▫e.
There is only the One Supreme Lord God; there is no other at all.

ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Jī▫o pind sabẖ ṯis kā jo ṯis bẖāvai so ho▫e.
Soul and body all belong to Him; whatever pleases His Will come to pass.

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਪੂਰਾ ਭਇਆ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੯॥੭੯॥
Gur pūrai pūrā bẖa▫i▫ā jap Nānak sacẖā so▫e. ||4||9||79||
Through the Perfect Guru, one becomes perfect; O Nanak, meditate on the True One. ||4||9||79||

Everything is contained in ONE.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Prakash ji, Spnadmin ji, Harry ji, and Ishna ji.

I think together you have all laid out the Oneness of Multiplicity. He is not only the mother, father, guru, and other associations. But also One. It is in the Nature of one to appear as separate. And it's in the nature of the separate to appear as one.

Now a physical example of what this points to cannot be given in the language of One. We use the language of Multiplicity to provide examples.

I am meditating on Harry ji's comment about Infinite nature of One. (Harry ji, It could also be stated that the dual nature is contained within the infinite nature and the infinite nature is contained within the one and the dual.)

Like how a flame dances through many appearances.
Like how the ocean throws wave after wave.
Like how one member writes so many posts.
The one forum contains all those members.
The one earth is a host for such forums.
The one universe churns up such earths.
Even the universe has been said to arise from a single point.
Multiplicity has then essentially arisen from One.
Both are true, and both are to be meditatd upon.

Can one reject the dual nature? Can one reject the many dances, waves, members, posts?
Similarly, one cannot reject the flame that dances, the ocean that waves, the member that posts.

Acceptance is key.

Realize that the play of One and Many is what we see. When we give attention to this play. Then we experience "Sab gobind hai sab gobind hai gobind bin nahi koi" and we further realize: "Some call him Ram, Some call him Khuda"

 

[Ishna]

Some call him Ram, some call him Khuda... Which brings up back to the initial thread topic I guess...

But aren't they speaking only of a PART? Ram, Khuda-- they do not encapsulate the all-encompassing and infinite nature of the creative force... Can we humans ever relate to the ONE? By looking at any created God by any name, we're pointing at the trunk of the elephant and saying "look! there is the infinite creator!".

Even when we speak of Waheguru, someone said recently you're still only able to encapsulate a little bit...

How can we possibly reflect on the ONE when it can't be seen for the MANY?

ie. The creative force is the forest but all we can see are the trees!

Is it possible? Is the way to do it just to give up trying?

 

[Harry Haller]

Bhenji,

I think with greater knowledge comes greater understanding. As long as you keep asking the questions, as do we all, at some point some conception of this huge infinite creative force that resides in everything will come to you and it will sit with you comfortably for the rest of your life as a foundation to base your ultimate understanding on. I envy you, you have the spirit, determination and the questions to see this through, however, when you find it, it will be your individual conception that will be personal to you, just like Prakashji's conception may be individual to him, I know how hard it is to express something like this in words, which is why we are all having so much difficulty!

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

HARRY HALLER ji,
You have given a wonderful description about the way any ones conception can become part of his life long thinking.This is exactly so.
I remember how a single line of grammer understanding mentioned in grammer book of Prof Sahb Singh ji drmatically changed my overall view of Gurbani understanding.I just caught that overlooked line and personaaly verified from within SGGS and the outcome is most surprising.
Therfore understanding is a continuous process .What you think right today may prove to be wrong at other point of time or vise versa.But a real Holisitic knowledge comes from the understandind provided by GuRU .So we should keep deliberating on the way GuRU wants us to understand.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Bhagat Singh ji,
You have rightly understood the concept of ONE.I greatly appreciate the way you have enunciated the basic essence of the whole of Gurbani understanding.You are so close to the Basic concept of Gurbani.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

The creative force is the forest but all we can see are the trees

Lol what do you mean all you can see are the trees? What is a forest if not trees?

What is Waheguru if not this life, this moment... the screen which you are staring at?

This is why I used the word Obvious. *facepalm* is good analogy for enlightenment. Now you just stated the obvious in your post but it may not have appeared to be obvious to you.

As soon as the obvious is put into words, it ceases to be obvious. That is, the words may be obvious to some and not so obvious for others. But what is obvious to some and not obvious to others is there, is Waheguru. But when you try and describe it, again it is obvious to some and not obvious to others. "That's it!" Realize that Waheguru must be seen outside the realm of words, if he is not already being seen in the words.

I think this would be a good time to quote Tao Te Ching. Seeing it from another language might help you out.

1

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

2

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

3

If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

Practice not-doing, [Hint: It's not telling you to be idle.]
and everything will fall into place.

Read further: http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html#20
I just bolded some stuff, etc but each line should be meditated upon.

Take several minutes to just dwell on those words.
.
.
.

I warn you to not turn the above into a belief. Realize that most of us live in beliefs... not with them. This is a dead end.

One needs to step out of beliefs, which are essentially thoughts you take to be true (how can Truth be realize if you take thoughts to be Truth?). One does initially starts from a particular set of beliefs. These must be transcended and seen to be only one small part of Waheguru. This is why I quoted another spiritual text.

You are right. At any given time you are only seeing one small part of Waheguru. Do you realize this when you are in a situation where you are in a fight with someone? Perhaps they said something offensive to you.

Do you realize that when you are with your parents and they keep lecturing about the obvious stuff you know about? Are you annoyed at that or seeing it as part of Waheguru's Hukam? If you are already annoyed... are you no seeing your own annoyed-ness as Hukam?

Bottomline: Are you observing and then accepting the Hukam as it arises?

It's not a question of belief. It's about being ready to live in it.

Recall Pauri One from Jap ji Sahib. Guru Nanak says that by accepting and dwelling in the Hukam, the Truth is realized.

Your hunger will not be satisfied no matter how much you feed it.
Your intelligence (thoughts, analysis, etc) will not help you in the end.
How can this illusion be torn apart and the truth be realized?
Nanak says truth is realized when one lives in harmony with the Hukam. (japji sahib)

Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth/36035-why-so-much-talk-about-enemies-3.html#post148670

 

[Ishna]

Fantastic post Bhagat bhaji, thank you. I am fond of the small sections of Tao Te Ching I've read for their striking similarity to Gurbani (a clear trunk/tail example). In fact I was given a copy last Christmas-I should try reading it more.

The "can't see the forest for the trees" comment is a common saying where I live which means you're looking too close at something and can't get the bigger picture. The trees all together make up the forest but you just look and see each tree by itself and so can't see that put together, seen in their entirety, they make a forest.

I have enjoyed this thread and will be reading it for a while! Thank you everyone for your thoughts!

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

To understand How that ONE is a pair this would require the understanding of Gurbani in terms of waves of Divine word GuRU,
Unless we rcognise the WAVE STRUCTURE of Gurbani it is not possible to grasp the concept of ONE being refered as Pair.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[spnadmin]

prakash.s.bagga ji

You are far adrift by at least 3 posts from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

 

[Ambarsaria]

prakash.s.bagga ji

You are far adrift by at least 3 posts from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

spnadmin ji, we all get trapped sometimes. I am sure I have done that with Babey/Sant stuff.

It feels like a paddle boat with rudder stuck. One keeps going in circles whereas with same effort you could understand so much more. One might as well be in a backyard pool versus the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ocean of wisdom. Same for understanding Gurbani. You get stuck (say Gur Guru, waves, etc.), you ain't coming unstuck and learn anything further unless you get your rudder unstuck.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

Ambarsaria ji

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji written to make spiritually accessible to the masses, and to rid us of enslavement to sants and babbeys, who were needed to bridge the gap between the abstractions of the vedas and the ignorant fools who wished salvation. In other words, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was compiled to make spirituality accessible. And I am still wondering why the impulse persists to make its study a murky proposition at best.

 

[Ambarsaria]

spnadmin ji, it is Business opportunities (for Babeys/Sants to live the styles of kings and queens like Brahmins used to do in large numbers and many still do) to make tons of money by claiming enlightenment (Sants/Babeys, etc.) and declaring darkness in masses. There is much information and wisdom in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that there is no limit on how many people can take even small pieces of wisdom/concepts and use such for exploitation of the gullible or vulnerable.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

SPNADMIN Ji,
I like what all you say because I understand the limitations of everyone sharing the views.You always have exclusive right to reject anything you want to.
But I know What I am saying.Nothing is in the air.At this time perhaps only GuRU knows.

I am greatly thankful to your suggestions all the times I have been receiving from you tme to time.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

This recent thread got me thinking. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/34683-does-sikhism-confirm-existence-hindu-gods.html

1. Are YHVH (Jewish God), the Trinity (Christian God) and Allah (Muslim God-no prizes for guessing!) the same God? I've always thought so since they all share common history, mythology and trace their roots to Abraham.

2. If you subscribe to the idea that gods and goddesses like Shiva and Durga are (or have been) part of creation, do you think the Abrahamic God is on the same level as all other gods and goddesses? Or do you think there is something special about this particular god?

Thanks
Ish

Ishnaji it is very interesting to note that Sikhism does not believe in a personal God which some may have claimed or been assigned being Prophet (Islam), wise man (I am not sure but Judaism), son of God (Christianity), messenger of God ( many smaller religions/faiths), conduit to God or God's Executives (Hiduism). This pretty much depicts the total humanity mosaic other than atheism.

Other than atheism, Sikhism puts everyone in the same category of part of creation where none is different from anyone. Each may have a different level of understanding as the only difference.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Sikhisim is not a path to GOD via GuRU.

Sikhisim is a path to GuRU via GuR as envisaged in Gurbani.

This is important to understand for all of us

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Sikhisim is not a path to GOD via GuRU.

Sikhisim is a path to GuRU via GuR as envisaged in Gurbani.

This is important to understand for all of us

Prakash.S.Bagga

Sorry prakash.s.bagga ji the way you are writing the combinations of letters (g, u, r, u) with capitals/lower case in all combinations makes little sense to me. At timest it becomes confusing and at worst mis-leading. Perhaps you can use the actual words from Gurbani in Punjabi (cut and paste) and then use English phonetic of lower and upper case letter combos as you please. Then perhaps I can follow.

On a side note, are you a follower of a Guru (sant, baba, babey, etc.) other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji right now? You don't need to answer this if you believe it is personal or otherwise none of my business to know. I may be totally wrong but I see hints written or otherwise of the same every once in a while.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Since you have asked a very personal question so I feel I should respond so that
you dont remain confused.

I appreciate your expertise in making the judgements about the personal character of me without knowing my antecidents.

Well for your information I am follower of SABADu GuRU JOTi {GuR-JOTi or GuRU-GuR}

I am,Gursikh and exclusively follow SGGS .I read only Gurmukhi script .Although I know

and understand English but I find that English version of SGGS eraatic in words with

respect to matras Which I consider most significant

I hope that this introduction should satisfy your goodself if not then I am helpless.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

prakash.s.bagga ji I get lost with your English Phonetics writings and the use of lower and upper case letters. I seek help to understand if you can use Punjabi words along with the English words you are using from Gurbani.

I am sorry it is not my job to judge and in my frustration I may be not right.

Sat Sri Akal.