• Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

Explain This In Dasam Granth

ISDhillon

SPNer
Dec 13, 2005
192
14
How can you call a hukamnama a ****? Where is the respect?
How can you call KhalsaFauj ********? Where is the respect again?
you have no respect you have shown none to any of the members on this forum.


You saying chariters are bani isn't hard to belive considering you support Sikhs being gay.
everything the guru wrote is not bani that is the error in youre premise.

What do you mean we Canadians?
Canada is way better than UK even though the govt. screwed up on gay issue.
how old are you? youre govt has legalised same-sex marriages nobody gives a toss what vedanti ****s, i wouldnt ask a plumber how to give a lecture on nuclear physics, he speaks outside of his remit, and also homosexuality is not against sikhi, prove it!!!

For my post on gays and lesbians. Read the bati thread. You didn't rip anyone in that thread and didn't win anything.
then why am i wearing a gold medal loooooser!!!!!
As for who am I? You will find out in future when I go to Punjab.
why is there a pedaphile convention that nonnes told us about,****-off a get a life you peice of ***!
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
Why don't you keep the homosexuality stuff in the homosexuality thread? This thread is about dasam granth and tria chariters. What do you mean I haven't shown respect to other members? Tria chariter followers don't deserve respect because they are Guru Nindaks.

As for get a life, I don't need a homo life. Bati boi!
Please take the S out of your name, you are not a Singh. If you hate Vedanti so much then why don't you go to punjab and talk to him and debate and beat him in a debate?

Why do you care about my age? I am not telling a gay promoter my age. I like to keep my honor safe!

What pedophile convention? You attend. I don't need to. I am not a pedophile.
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
Keep the promotion of homosexuality to yourself and don't bother me. As for doing my nindya, keep on doing it. Make a thread to bash me, I don't care.
Isn't being a child molester being gay if the child is a boy? So there you go. How can I support that if I am against homosexuality?
You don't make sence and all you are doing is making baseless, useless and false allegations which are 100% false and don't bother me as it is just nindya.
Why don't you just make a bati religion and take 24 avtar, chandi/durgaa stuff, and tria chariters. Remove chariters 15,16,20,21,22,23 or any other chariters doing nindya of my Guru and make your religious granth. Feel free to add more sex stories to your granth. All gays and other perverts would be happy to join your religion.

Now lets get back to dasam granth. Great post by Akashdeep Singh Ji and Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji Arshi.
 

ISDhillon

SPNer
Dec 13, 2005
192
14
Keep the promotion of homosexuality to yourself and don't bother me. As for doing my nindya, keep on doing it. Make a thread to bash me, I don't care.
Isn't being a child molester being gay if the child is a boy? So there you go. How can I support that if I am against homosexuality?
You don't make sence and all you are doing is making baseless, useless and false allegations which are 100% false and don't bother me as it is just nindya.
Why don't you just make a bati religion and take 24 avtar, chandi/durgaa stuff, and tria chariters. Remove chariters 15,16,20,21,22,23 or any other chariters doing nindya of my Guru and make your religious granth. Feel free to add more sex stories to your granth. All gays and other perverts would be happy to join your religion.

Now lets get back to dasam granth. Great post by Akashdeep Singh Ji and Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji Arshi.


lol after reading this and the other waffle i know what type of sikh you re I used to see them at uni they walk around telling people off about ninda and stuff, now you can go to youre rainsbhai and hi5 all youre homophobic buddies, the sikhism you people have does not hsare a brain cell with our gurus the quicker youre dismantled the better.

kind regardations,

Indster
 

Admin

SPNer
Jun 1, 2004
6,692
5,240
SPN
Admin Note: Please everybody mind your language!! Using bad language/personal attacks does not make you sound wiser. If anybody does not adhere to decent behaviour with a fellow SPiaN, then I am afraid very strict SPN Rules will come into force, which include a permanent ban from the network for a lifetime.


Thank you for your support.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

Bhai Akasah Deep Singh Ji today most time of das was made to post typed matter in two thread posted below.

Das will address isues by you regarding the Letter soon.


And also das is posting some more things.

Gurfateh


Respected Gyani Sahib JI,Bhai Akashdeep Singh Ji and Bhai International Akali,

By mercy of Akal,das has replied may wrong things ben preached by this guy The Khalsa Fauj.

Main reason for das’s being annoyed with him is due to the fact that he called himself from AKJ(he at present says that K stands from Katha and not Kirtani).He also used derogatory language for role model of Das,S.Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana.He called Sirdar Sahib as Kala.

Das tolerated blame on integrity like being tagged as agent of GOI,RSS and trying to divide Sikhs over meat issue plus being told non Sikh only thinking that often AKJ guys misunderstand das due to his support for UK Budhadal and Kala Afghana Sahib Ji.

He has been changing his stand and after that das will write back logical anser he will fight with abuses.
And personal attack.Proof can be seen in AKJ Amabala Sahib follower at tapoban.org.There also he did not say that he is not from AKJ,which Tapoban.org is related.

Das’s Target aodiances are yourself and das’s target is falsehood being spread by Khalsa Fauj.


Das will as told in Triya Charitar 266 will right truth but reality is when Akal allows.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/14772-answering-worng-doubts-aboout-bani-onto.html#post49722

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/14771-wrod-word-translation-triya-charitars-21-a.html


Also if gets time.some werse misused by Muslim with same logic as TKF is using were clarified By Bhai Bijala Singh regarding ladies(Muslim used same logic for Darbar Sahib).Das will past them also.
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
Vijaydeep, you still don't have it right man. It is not Akhand Katha Jatha. There is no such thing as Akhand Katha. Doesn't make sence.

It is Akali Katha Jatha. I have said it all along.
I post Akali Katha Jatha and you misread wrong again. It always said Akali Katha Jatha so I can't belive you keep misreading it as Akhand Kirtani Jatha or Akand Katha Jatha.

Once again, it has always been Akali Katha Jatha.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

If you want any help even to preach your idealgy,Das is happy to help you.But use logic and not slander against one who is opposing you.Else in the yes of other you and we will be proved wrong.It is good to have Josh or enthusisam.But we need to recogansie the differance between the foe and the frind.

Before das jopins you das would like to say that Das is a supporter of Kala Afghana Sahib.Are you still ready to take das.

As per him not singel Bani is from Tenth Master.Das is even ready to support him.Panth needs to respect wise man.

Problem is not with him over Dasham Granth Sahib but what explantion he read from Pandit Naryan Singh Ji.The way we can not have faith as a missionary over Fareed Koti Teeka of Darbar Sahib in the same way,the way our Prof Sahib Singh Ji carried out correct interpetaion of Darbar Sahib.Das only seeks an oppertuntt to reinterpret it.

If it makes him agent of GOI,RSS,Weed drinker,Canbis eater,One trying to divide the faith so no probelm.Das is ready for that.

But even if you want that,your ideolgy should be spread in India,Das knows mnay of rather most of his buddis who are Anti Dasham Granth.Das will let you have contact with them.They are having a good hold at Faridabad,while das's whom is further south in Palwal.

They were planing to burn the copys of the book or black day.Yet das has no hatered towards them.

Gurmat teaches that no one is to be seen out side.Koye Na Dese Bahra.What is in das same is in you and in all.No second and no Duja.

So das is ready to help you.And try to preach to non Sikhs also.Thats what das wants more.Akal Bless.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

I have doubts that Bhai Mani Singh ji ever wrote that letter.
Bhai Mani Singh ji were martyred in 1734 AD. This so called letter which people say that Bhai Mani Singh Ji wrote to Mataji mentions the rumor of Banda Singh Bahadar escaping the prison. Banda Singh Bahadar was martyred in 1716 AD. Therefore, if this letter was written (which people argue) then it could only have been written between 1716 AD - 1734 AD. Now lets see some issues associated with this so called letter.
In all the Gurmukhi prose writings of that period (e.g., the Hukamnamas of Guru Gobind Singh and Banda Singh Bahadar), words constituting a sentence were joined together, without leaving blank spaces between them. And, this method of writing continued to be followed right upto 1867 A.D., as shown by a copy of the newspaper 'Akhbar Sri Darbar Sahib' published in that year. But the words in the so-called letter of Bhai Mani Singh are not joined together, and are separated by blank spaces.
The following are different from the writings of Bhai Mani Singh's period.
The shape of letters, and
The liberal use of bindi of the Gurmukhi script in the letter.
Trying to associate the name of a learned person like Bhai Mani Singh ji with Chritro pakhyan through this letter puts the final stamp on fakenss of this letter. It is unimaginable that a learned person like Bhai Mani Singh ji could ever send something like Chritro pakhyan to Mataji. No respectful Sikh can read Chritro Pakhyan in the presence of a lady or in sangat, then how can a learned person like Bhai Mani Singh send that to Mataji?
Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep

When Guru nanak ji establsihed His sucessor guru..Bhai lehana Ji into Guru angad Ji..and up till Guru Gobind Singh ji....no MEHL of any Guru Sahib was ever in any "leadership".."consultation" position. There is no evidence that Guru Angad ji ever sent any letters to Mata Tripta Ji..or ever "consulted" her on any matters....same for Mata Khivi ji.. Mata Ganga Ji...Mata Gujree Ji..or any others. Guru Hargobind Ji was a BALAK GURU..but there is No evidence that He ever depended on his mother Mata ganga Ji for any advise on SIKHISM..Guru Gobind Singh ji was also a BALAK GURU...there is absolutley no evidence that mata gujjari Ji advised Him or changed any of His decisons..Guru Har Krishan ji was also Balak Guru....no evidence He asked any advise etc from the Mata Jis.
Guru GOBIND SINGH JI passed on His Gurgadhi to Guru Garnth ji Sahib and the KHALSA PANTH ( Punj Piyaras). In His LIFE TIME guru Ji BOWED to the PUNJ on many ocassions to Clearly ESTABLISH this FACT of Gurgadhee - at Vasakhi 1699, At Chamkaur..and also at the Grave of some Muslim Pir.
Such stories and FALSE LETTERS, sent out under august shaheeds names like Bhai mani Singh ji are an attempt to UNDERMINE the Gurgadhee of SGGS and Guru Khalsa Panth by bringing in "Mata Ji"..... Equally nefarious stories were put out that this same Mata Sundari ji, couldnt stand the death of Her Sahibzadah Ajit Singh and "ADOPTED" a boy who looked like Ajit Singh...and later on this boy SHAMED his ADOPTED MOTHER and made her REGRET her action of adopting him. This is an attempt to make out Mata sunder Kaur Ji as an "ordinary mortal" who PINES for Her sons..and NOT as Guru Gobind Singh Ji declared..Chaar moeeah to kia hooa.JEEVAT kaee HAZAAR...so what if my FOUR sons dies..the Khalsa Lives on in its Thousands..all my SONS !! and this same "mortal" mata ji is pursuing the "Human dream" of collecting her husbands literature,banis etc ?? ( Everything that Guru Gobind Singh ji threw away in the Sirsa River )
The Truth is that Mata Ji lived in "house arrest" in Delhi under the watchful eyes of the Mughal Govt ( as the wife of Mortal Eenmy of the State Number One)..and the Govt was successful in DIVIDING the SIKHS into Two groups and thus DEFEAT the Mighty baba banda Singh bahaduir and avert the danger from SIKHS in one stroke. IF one group of SIKHS had NOT DESERTED Banda Singh..he wouldnt have been defeated and the Mughals would have lost earlier. Mata sundari Jis name is also connected to thsi DIVIDE and RULE trategy of the Mughals.
Gyani jarnail Singh

Respected Gyani Sahib and Bhai Sahib,

Das is thankfull to yuorself to raise the doubts.Although das is ready with the answers yet das will give it an another look as memoray of das is weak.Das had some texts in past which were burnt.So das willtry to have look on them within a days of two and then will make an answers.

Today das wrote a large letter of apology to TKF,but by some fault in wire it was lost.

Das is Very busy with Prabhat Pheri and perhaps Gatka till GurPurab,yet das will try to be back after again verifying the things again,which das saw about 2 years back.

Das is sorry for delay.And thank you for job you have gave to him.For him this job is gift from Guru on Gurupurab.

Das is anyputting some Prmans from Gurbani over something which das left last week as openended.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

Gurfateh

what is meant by dervived and forced interpetation and what is priamry data collection you will know here and now.


So here we start.


Katha Chatur Das Nrip Ko Mantri Kari Bakhan
Misnter described the 14th stroy to king(head human or Nrip)

Sunat Rejh Ke Nrip Rahe,Diyo Adhik Teh daan.
After lstening King became Happy and gave him good lot of donation.

Ek bimatra Bhan KI Ramdaspur Bech
One Step mother of Bhan in Ramdaspur

Bahu Purkhan Se Rati Kare Uch na Jane Neech

Use to indulge(Rat(i)) with mnay men.Did not know high(that lower)
Use to love(Rati)/indulge(Rat) act with many men without knwoing ups and downs.

There is no caste but in the mind of TKF.


Ta Pati mari Gayo Jabe Tahi Bhayao Awdhana
After her husbad died,during that time she had pragnency.

Adhik Hride Bhitar Dari Lok Laj jiye Jan
she became to much afraid,understading (-ve impact)Self respect in public in mind.

quderet
Bhan Mati tiha nam Bakhaniyat
Bhan Mati was her name described.
Badi Chhinar Jagat mai janiyat
big Bad Lady she was understood in world.

Chhinar means chercterless lady.Chhi in hindi stands for filthy exclamtion.But big {censored} is prevert word.Sangat may decide that who has prevert mind.Tranlator or reader?

Jab Tak ko Rahi Gyao ADhana.
when she had feotus withn her/Pregenecy.

Tab Abla Ko Hridaye Darana
Then heart of powerless became afraid.

so das just wanted to put your tranlation and dases opver here.

Then reaming story.

she calls some men in Party.

Lied dowen and got up suddennly and with a plan(charector) in her mind she had name of her husband and said.


when her husband died,she was told by him to thay if she dies of brubbubg now(with him) She will go to hell.
Bhan is young
serve him
rear him and make him grow
the day he eats after earning.

I wil give you a dream after coming.

Bhan has been done big(Grown up0 and husband has givne dream after coming.(After Bhan has grown husband has ocme into dream,time to die).

from that I go to world of Guru Har Rai Kiratpur.

People prevent ut she did not concede thier say.
she let her wealth be looted and moved with great stuborness embedded in mind.

After leaving Ramdas pur and coming to kiratpur
she stood one one leg and burnt her self with playing Mridang(a Sort of Drum).

Many people saw her being Burnt with standing at one leg.

They saw and became happy but did not know the secret.

In whole world if man has faith in female(instead of Akal).
within seven days he is destroyed.

(Gurbani referacne Janani Pita Lok Sut Banita Koi Na kiski Dharya).

A man who give away his mind to female.
That person gets bad's sitution of him daily in world.(mind should be givne to god ajnd not opposite sex).

so das will elborate.

After Sixth Master went to Kiratpur Sahib,in amritsar Sahib we all know that unworhty guys took control.

Ninth Master was not allowed to enter Darbar Sahib and Ladies from Vala took him into Darbar Sahib.Tenth Master did not visit Darbar Sahib.

so under Sodis wrong things can happend there.God only know that when did Sitala Mandir finds place in City made by Sikh Gurus.That could be period.

Then a wrong lady is there in Amritsar Sahib.Duirng the time of Fifth Master itself within Sodi family bad people were there.

So inorder to conceal her abdultrous habit.she tried to get herself devine she became Sati.People who thought her great were befooled and for them it is told that should not trust female with all faith and givng self intellect.

This Charitar actuly tells that Satis in Hindus is more having many immoral things behind.and only fools tend to respect Sati as godess.

Then another thing over here TKF can ask for why did not Guru prevented her from doing so.

It is no where writan that Guru was over there.Had Guru been there then Guru would have prevented her.As Gurmat is Anti Sati.It is writtan that she did this in comman people and not in front of Guru.Then another question

If Guru knew everthing then why should not Guru be able pre empt her coming and prevent here?

Guru may let hewr kill her self and in Tenth form or maybe withing Seventh Form there oraly should have told guys about her wrongs.And she should not be made Heroine.

Guru had an Army and intelligence from Amritsar was to reach him.He did get news about Dar Shikohs comeing and did escort him once.That was only military mission of Seventh Guru.(Auranga Probelm with Guru had this reason also Ram Rai was sent).

Das has to move to duty by knwo and rest will be addressed tommorow.

(to be continued..)


Last lines can be treated as Anti female if not taken into correct context.A Muslim guy gace such wrong out of context things for Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Bhai Bijla Singh Ji actuly did correct interpetaions.

“Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.” – SGGS Page 304, Line 13
By quoting only one line it does not show the context of the verse. The verse applies to those men who due to lust try to appease and woo women become subservient to them and act according to their orders. The very next verse in this shabad says “The impure man is taken by lust and does all action after asking the woman”. To lose one’s own decision-making power due to lust is wrong and the verse makes it quite clear. Nowhere does it say that women are unequal or their opinions should not be considered.
“The fool loves Gold and Women” – SGGS Page 416, Line 3
Referring to those engrossed in worldly pleasures, how does this demean women? It is a fact that people lost in love for maya (materialism) seek out wealth and women. How does this demean women? Isn’t yearning for 72 virgins and wealth in paradise foolish when what one is only doing is becoming enslaved to their sexual desire (Kaam) and greed (lobh) and losing their opportunity to actually experience and have union with God Himself.
“They wander from house to house, with impure minds, like wicked, forsaken women.” – SGGS Page 651, Line 15

This is a reference to the woman who has been abandoned by her husband, which was a phenomenon seen in those days and even now. These women were rendered homeless and indeed had to go from house to house. It is a comparison between the person who does not accept the order of God and is lost in the world to a woman who has been abandoned by her husband. How does it say women are bad?
“Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters, Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food. Modesty has left her home, and honor has gone away with her.”- SGGS Page 1243, Line 1
Look at the context. It refers to men who under the influence of lust obey orders of women to appease and woo them.
“For the sake of pleasure, you have become subservient to your woman, and now your feet are bound.” - SGGS Page 1352, Line 13

At the risk of sounding repetitive, this again refers to the man who for the purpose of lust obeys women to woo them.
When referring to husband/wife relations Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is clear that not only should the husband “consult” with his wife, but “They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. ||3||”
“Woman is one half the complete personality of man, and is entitled to share secular and spiritual knowledge equally.” (Bhai Gurdas Ji, Var 5, Pauri 16:59)

In Pingla Devi Charitar for Example we have writtan that True Sati is not the one who burns with her husband but is one who dies after separation.
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
What is the purpose of tria chariters?

Why were they written?

Why do the waste almost half of bachitter natak granth?

Are poet shyam, kal, saam soofi, and raam your Gurus?

What if tria chariter are thrown in the garbage or burned? Is it paap?

Were Sikhs reading tria chariters before bachitter natak granth got created?

What the need to write tria chariters?

Why do they say that even God is regretting after creating women?

Why is the chariter count wrong and why is the shund count messed up?

Why wasn't time used to write wiser things?

What was the need to describe sexual positions and use abusive/adult words?

Why is there no rating on it? What if some 10 year old kid reads that ****?

Are dasam granth promoters willing to read it with their family and relatives and others listening?

Where has the sharam and dharam gone?


"Munda Santokh Sharam Putt Jholee Dhiaan Kee Krai Bebhoot"

"Sharam Dharam Doaye Shup Khloaye Korr Firray Pardhaan Vay Laalo"

Has the word lund or land been used in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

If no, then why not?

Why is it used in dasam granth then?

What happened to answering those questions I posted? Only like 2 were answered and they weren't answer with valid points either.
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
Please read the recently published book called Dasam Granth Daa Likhaaree Kaun to get more information and thorough analysis on koke shaster aka tria chariters.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
What is the purpose of tria chariters?


Why were they written?


There are mnay reasons a few

1.To let Sikhs know that there could be sin benath pous looking Hindus or Muslims.
Why do the waste almost half of bachitter natak granth?

It is not a waste.

Are poet shyam, kal, saam soofi, and raam your Gurus?

Kal,Ram and Shyams are name for Akal and so is name Mahakal,This tells that this is work of Akal and not human.There is no other Guru but Akal.Where is Saam Soofi writtan?

Saam has some meaning in Arebic and Sufi has some meaning in Farsi.

What if tria chariter are thrown in the garbage or burned? Is it paap?

If you want you can do it,In Gurmat,there is nothing Pap or Punya.Later on you can say that as Sinfull Raagmala is part of Darbar Sahib,whole should follow the same fate?

Were Sikhs reading tria chariters before bachitter natak granth got created?

Were Sikhs reading Bani of Ninth Master when Fist Master complied Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?

What the need to write tria chariters?

another one.
2.To send Decoded message which Sikh can only understand and non Sikhs should not even have imagination that it could be a work of Guru.

Why do they say that even God is regretting after creating women?

Bidhna is Brahma and he wanted to marry own doughter.Brahma is not God.
Why is the chariter count wrong and why is the shund count messed up?

It is done intentional and works on descreate structure with clar ways been told and not in continuiess fashion.We can say that Digital era strated much before Charels Babbage.

Why wasn't time used to write wiser things?

sometime we are unwise to recoganse something much wise then time and call it unwise.

What was the need to describe sexual positions and use abusive/adult words?

Is Posture only means sexual postion or Asan word makes us arose then it is our own inner ******* mindset.

Abuse and Adult sort of the things are made up by upper caste people,who look lower caste people using such language as bad.So such mindset is that of a Brahmin.

Why is there no rating on it? What if some 10 year old kid reads that ****?

Well if you come to India and stay in village or poor people.Mothers tells 6 year old child to take his cow near bull for let Sex happen.It is Urban and rich class or caste baseed inner ego which makes us think such things.Better is to ask some old person who has lived a life of poor and /or rural.Truth is naked and often bitter.

Are dasam granth promoters willing to read it with their family and relatives and others listening?

Das has talked about one episode with his mother where a lady breakes an egg on bed and misguides as men that this is seman.

further things also das talked.In Educated families,where no gender bia of mother and father is there,We can talk.

Where has the sharam and dharam gone?

Sharam or shame is in hand of Akal.Dharam is to have rithiousness.So what is fuss about it.Brahmins have made them secreative.


"Munda Santokh Sharam Putt Jholee Dhiaan Kee Krai Bebhoot"
Here Saram can also means labour or kirat and other word is Uddam.
"Sharam Dharam Doaye Shup Khloaye Korr Firray Pardhaan Vay Laalo"

That is there to counter cruototion and injustice.

Has the word lund or land been used in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

did not word Bhug(vagina) and Jon(Yoni again Vagina) used in Guru Granth Sahib?If female Organs can be talked about then why not male one?Did world
Khalsa Panth used?Did Pahil used?Did Singh as surname or Kaur used as Surname?What about 5ks?

If no, then why not?

If not then why not?

Why is it used in dasam granth then?
why can not this be used?

Sikhi Rahit Maryada can come over here.Sarbloh is used in there which may not be before.

What happened to answering those questions I posted? Only like 2 were answered and they weren't answer with valid points either.

go to this special thread and your all questions are answered.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/14772-answering-wrong-doubts-about-bani-onto.html
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
Why did you make a new thread? So we don't know and you act as if no one can answer your replies? I will read them and answer them. Next time you make a thread about something posed by someone, notify the person. I request the Admin to delete such threads and move the content to the related thread next time.

I will respond to your statements and why do you keep saying that I lie? Are you lacking confidence to debate properly so you have to resort to personal attacks? Why do you keep saying i prefer prostitutes? Am I the one promoting {censored} kavita (tria chariters?).
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh
Why did you make a new thread? So we don't know and you act as if no one can answer your replies? I will read them and answer them. Next time you make a thread about something posed by someone, notify the person. I request the Admin to delete such threads and move the content to the related thread next time.

I will respond to your statements and why do you keep saying that I lie? Are you lacking confidence to debate properly so you have to resort to personal attacks? Why do you keep saying i prefer prostitutes? Am I the one promoting {censored} kavita (tria chariters?).

As text is too much and let debate here do not lost.Das does this.And das is exposing that who is racial and tell lies.

If you use term Kanjer in India,This is a lower caste of Hindus,which is been made sexual slave for upper castes since ages.

yuo actualy talk like Brahmin when you talk ill of any caste.

Another term used for Kanjer a Shcduled tribe is Gihara or Khunjarh.

Yuo can be sued for using caste based or racial marks both in India and in you countary.

Anyway Guru did made these Kanjers also beating upper castes.Triya Charitar is strory of foundation for revolt.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh
Work Das did for Bhai Akashdeep Singh Ji and Gyani Sahib.

I have doubts that Bhai Mani Singh ji ever wrote that letter.
Bhai Mani Singh ji were martyred in 1734 AD. This so called letter which people say that Bhai Mani Singh Ji wrote to Mataji mentions the rumor of Banda Singh Bahadar escaping the prison. Banda Singh Bahadar was martyred in 1716 AD. Therefore, if this letter was written (which people argue) then it could only have been written between 1716 AD - 1734 AD. Now lets see some issues associated with this so called letter.
In all the Gurmukhi prose writings of that period (e.g., the Hukamnamas of Guru Gobind Singh and Banda Singh Bahadar), words constituting a sentence were joined together, without leaving blank spaces between them. And, this method of writing continued to be followed right upto 1867 A.D., as shown by a copy of the newspaper 'Akhbar Sri Darbar Sahib' published in that year. But the words in the so-called letter of Bhai Mani Singh are not joined together, and are separated by blank spaces.
The following are different from the writings of Bhai Mani Singh's period.
The shape of letters, and
The liberal use of bindi of the Gurmukhi script in the letter.
Trying to associate the name of a learned person like Bhai Mani Singh ji with Chritro pakhyan through this letter puts the final stamp on fakenss of this letter. It is unimaginable that a learned person like Bhai Mani Singh ji could ever send something like Chritro pakhyan to Mataji. No respectful Sikh can read Chritro Pakhyan in the presence of a lady or in sangat, then how can a learned person like Bhai Mani Singh send that to Mataji?
Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep

Gurfateh
Let us talk of rumour regarding Banda.

Bhai Sahib were sent to settle the matter between Tat Khalsa and Bandai Khalsa.

As per Pracheen Panth Prakash,version as per Bhai Veer Singh Ji.

Due to meditation, Banda was alive and where his limbs were thrown he threatened the passer bye to join his body.So his body was joined.

He fled to Jammu, by threatening some man married his daughter and had sons,who used sodi surname,claiming to be adopted son of Guru.

Apart from the book,we still have a community of Bandai Sikh in Haryana(they celebrate their function during monsoon).Thier seat is at Rohatk under Baba Teja Singh Sodi.Also there is place related to Banda Singh at Jammu and that is after his death.

Akal knows the truth but there was a hoax like this and still is.
Comng to the style.
But Banda getting free and running away may also means his fleaing the fort surrounding him.As per Sau Sakhi,it is written that he fled and gone into Indus.

And before that there were instances that say in Fort near present day Haryana Himachal border.He escaped the Moghuls but reappeared later to take over some parts in Majha region.

So timing after his death on the bases of sentence"hoax is that Banda has run away after getting librated" may not sound fool proof.As there had been a history of Moghuls to officially declare their foe dead,while he could be still alive.(as they did with Guru after heft Chamkaur Sahib).

Muslims did use lies in past,like converting rajput queen to Islam,after lieing her that her father is also agreeing,while father use to be in custody.They tried such things on young Sons of Lord at Sirhind. Before killing Anup Kaur also as per legend,they told her to be Muslim as her Father Guru is dead.


Das visited museum of Gurudwara Bangla Sahib and Saw manuscripts written by Fifth Master,Sixth Master,Ninth Master,Tenth Master and letter we are talking about.
Before das writes more about that das will say that carbon dating is the best way to get the time of any thing organic in nature or else we have nuclear dating also for in organic things.When Panth has ample fund or when cost of such testing decreases,then we can carry that out.Das say,the sooner the better,But result from that also das doubts could effect bigot supporters or opposers,They will cook a new story.

Das saw the letters and seals also of that time.

Coming to staye.
Das saw singnatures of the Gurus an writing of Bhai Gurdas JI.

Singatures are in form of Mool Mantra as well as of SatiGuru Prasad(for Tenth Master).

5th Master had all letters broken.
Bhai Gurdas Ji as you have told in line without break.
6th Masters as das wanted it to be.
9th Master one signature without break.
Tenth Master’s signature with Mool Mantra and Satiguru Prasad,with letters broken.

Das swa manuscripts of text and sometime teekas or explations but all were in one line.
1816,1878,1833,1800,1865,1876.All were as you have told.but this passes the time 1867.

So in line as you told continued after time you have given,yet if letter is forged after 1867 then also imposter could have given a al in line.
But main thing to come is that is there any proof that broken existed before 1867.
Answer is yes.

On the third copy of Bhai Bannu Wali Beerh,one page(which is compiled) does has mool Mantra as signature of Ninth Master.This was the time when Seventh Master were Guru.
1750 Vikrami and we can rectfy the date in aD with factor of 56.That is broken and is having the same style that of the letter of Bhai Mani Singh Ji.Words are as single unit and and there is space between them.
1. It is a signature.
2.Mool Mantra is not a poetry and no Gurbani is at all poetary.

Das is aware that when mind is biased then,it is not easy to convince,that applies to das also.So das took help of some text from Ganda Singh Ji Huqmnammah book.Over there das would like to add,that das has seen photo copies of manuscripts and gives more wight on them.While only printed text from Decca’s manuscripts das will only mention but it may not be same so.Reson is that sometimes das also saw in print did not existed over the manuscript so it could not deemed as authentic.So only what das saw on the manuscript and verified could be under stood to be OK for reference.

Das in the first look saw in Gurudwara Bangla Sahib,writings of Bhai Mani Singh Ji nearest to Ninth Master.Way of letters,gap between words and lastly about Bindi,all is common,with that of Ninth Master.

Letters are similar and now das wil talk about Gap in ,with that letter to other writng related to Ninth Master.Das would like to add that Bhai Sahib were two years elder to Tenth Master,so Bhai Sahib,had to have got some education at the time of Ninth Master.

So here we go.
Publication year 1999.
By Punjabi university Patiyala.

Page 1.Has Mool Mantra by Fifth Master. Words are more broken then joined and due to refill of ink few letters are seen broken.
Then from central Sikh meusium Amritsar Sahib another Mool Mantra perhaps by Sixth Master.Here letters are broken.

Another letter by Sixth Master but most letters are broken. And 3 and 4(this has Baba Gurditta’s letter).

Coming to Ninth Master’s writng which shows the broken words ie spave between the words.

Page 75,manuscript 7 and date 11.08.1671.But they are Mool Mantra.

(sikh refreance library Amritsar Sahib).
Page 76 ,Manuscript 8 and letter to Sangat of Patan(Pak Patan?) on Dewali.

Writing of Guru.80% and more words have space between them.
(Sikh reference library).

Page 80.We have 60% space.

Page 84We have 60% again.

Page 86 has faint copy but words of Guru again 80% with space.

Page 92 and Manuscript 16,to Benaras ‘s Sangat.At Gurudwara Barhi Sangat Benaras.

Here 90% and plus both Guru’s and scribe words have gap of spaces.This one das with confidance can give as a proof of words not joined with bar but letters of word are joined.
(das agrees that there are majority of text in this book,where all sentence is in line joined by a bar but in many of them also Bar is sometime broken.Das is not touching them as breaking of bar is unintentional.Das only finds some touching in space over here also as unintentional.).

page(p) 94 and Manuscript(m) 17 again both scribe and Gurus writing is broken into disjoin words 80%.

P 96 and M 18 again both Guru and scribe have left space intiontaoly witj 80%plus.

Page 98 and Manuscript 19 we have proof as whole by Guru and there 100% disjoint.At Gurudwara Barhi Sangat,Benaras.(das can well understand that outside Punjab,due to Nagri or Farsi scripts influence,we have more of disjoint sentences in Gurmukhi.Bhai Sahib also stayed in Delhi for long,serving Mata Ji).

Again a letter at Patna Sahib,we have page 102 and m 21.It has 99% intentional gap.

P104,m22,Message upward 100% broken.Names of addressees 99% broken.
P106 M23,we have same as above but some message with names.But print of both of the above are not good..

P108,M24 at Patna Sahib and to Bhai Diyal Das and Bhai Ram Rai.100% broken bars at top.
P 110 and M 25.60 too 50 % broken at top only ie by Guru scribe has joined bars.

P112 and M26 at Sikh reference library.100% again broken bar and more space between words.
P114 and M27 at same place as above,Upper
Writing of Guru broken and scribes are in line,un broken.
P116 and M28,upper broken with 90% but lower scribe work is unbroken.
Again at P118 and M29,we have Gurus text as above part with 100%.Lower scribe part is in continues lines.

After the above related to Ninth Master

Let us see of Tenth Master’s letter in that style.P136 and M38,100% space between words as intended.

Das has not yet verified one Huqqm Nammah sent to Kabul by Tenth Master.

There is a Huqnammah,again at P234 amd M87,that is from Patna Sahib.4.2.1762.

There some words are broken but most is joint with bar at top.


Das has given at least 3 examples with 100% intentional space between the letters.

So saying that it started to give space only in mid nineteen centuary may not hold good.



Coming to Bindi Affair.

In Japu Ji Sahib we have term Bhanda Bhau Amrit Tat Dhal.Bhanda has Bindi.

Namo Bank Banke has bindi at Bank of Japu Sahib. Has Bindi at Bank.

Then Manjh at start of Barah Maha has Bindi and Gond in Raagmala also has bindi.

Das can give more reference from Guru Granth Sahib Ji of Bindi.

But were they used in letters?

Yes.

First das will write about pages were tippi is shown as Bindi,Page114,148,125 and 235 and see the manuscripts.


Then on pages 107 and 109.We have letter associated with Ninth Master and is Bindi there?
In 107
Term Kanatan has bindi.But first appearance Bindi is joined to bar unlike Tippi in Panj,which is more like a dot.Next Kanatan again does not has very prominent Bindi.It appears more of thicknening of bar.Arhas Matra is also shown as Bindi but below the line.
In 109

Bindi should appear in three places ie Khanche,Saif Khan and Kahran.But Bindi is missing but there in Khanchai we have two bindis,one for Arha and another for nasal.But that is not very convinsing.

Page 114,125,137and 235 has tippi as Bindi

Page 148 has fadly on top right corner bindi over Satran and over here tippi also is there in other words and distinct.

Page 147 Maunscript 43,dated 2.8.1696.we have distinct tippi in word sangat line 2 and distict bindi in line 5’s end in word Dekhdiyan.Letter is in Burj Baba Alam Singh Qila Mubaraq Patiyala and letter is from Tenth Master to Bhai Tiloka and Bhai Rama.
Page 162 and Manuscript 51.Dated 4.11.1700.To Sangat of Patan Sheikh Fareed.By Tenth Master.


One left top margin,First line Jan has distinct Bindi and Tan also has the same,next line has Masanddiye,with tippi.

Very faded Satran also has faded Bindi with left bottam corner.



Page 173 and Manuscript 56,we have Bindi distinctively at bottam left in word Sataran.
It is from Tenth Master to Sangat Pirag at Sikh refreance library Amritsar.Terms like Sangat,Panj etc. has Tippi also given as it is.

Page 230,Manuscript 85.From Mata Sahib Devi to Bhai Man Singh.Dated,30 December 1734.
From Sikh refreance library Amritsar Sahib.
Word Singh at first line has dot in Sihari,weather it is Tippi or not,das can not say.
Line for has word Navan.A hemisphere above the bar,represent Bindi.

But at bottam right side Satran has Single Bindi.Arha no where else has been shown as Bindi in this letter but is shown as shaft bar like half of this "| " while Bindi is like . So we can not say that it is Bindi or Arha.

So far das has given some examples of Bindi and space and also informed that letters are more like that of Ninth Master as of Bhai Mani Singh Ji.

As Bhai Mani Singh Ji,had scribed the Damdami version of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and compiled the Dasham Granth.We can say without doubt that he can or his scribe can do improvisation of Calligraphy or Khushnavisi.It is art encouraged by Muslims but Sikhs,who deemed word as Guru also had liking to it.Das will ot write much about that or else writing will expand a lot.

So Bhai Sahib or his scribe can use Bindis or space also.

Language of that letter is nearer to that time.

Another thing das noted was alo slang of Farsi.Guru use Sitabi a lot in Dasham Granth and Letters also.Bhai Sahib use term Biban.People tend to take it for Jungle.While any person who know farsi knows that Biyaban is meant for desert.Sikhs did got into desert and hills.Such slang Sikh used for language in farsi as they did for Sanskrit.

But after talking more about,all such good things related to grammer and writing.Ds would recommend that,we should carry out Carbon or Nuclear dating of letters mentioned.So could be done of copies of Dasham Granth.It is more work or forensic expert.But will the opposer be ready to accept the result?Same could be done for Rahit Nammah Bhai Desa Singh Ji,Work S. Kesar Singh Ji and work of Bhai Mani Singh Ji(other then this letter,some other manuscript is there in Patiyala),should be dated.

If das gets time and resources,das will try for that.Four version of Dasham Granth Sahib,at Delhi,Nabha,Amritsar and Patna can also undergo that.

And there will be many shocking things coming out.









Lastly coming to the part of a Idealogical thing from techniqulities.

How can so called Flimsy or so called pornographic text as Triya Charitars or Chaitar Pakhayan are deemed to be,can be sent to Mother by Bhai Mani Singh Ji.
Three reasons to answer that.
1.Unlike popular propaganda to make Bhai Mani Singh Ji or Bhai Vachitar Singh from high caste Rajput Ancestors.He was actually from Nomands ot Blacksmiths and were not from high caste ancestory.Due to this reason ,he appreciated the language used by Guru at per with lower castes.And he did not bring in Sanskritised Standards of upper castes.Which is more nearer to Brahmanism,which is cursed.He was not biased that Guru was to work with higher caste Brahmanical standards.

2.He was Sikh and Sikhs are objective to tell truth.And not subjective out look.

3.Most important. He as Singh from the time of Gurus. He had no gender bias. They way son could talk to Father, so could son talk to mother. Mother is weak, female should be covered and all such Nordic values(Aryan,Semtic and Caucasians has such thing).But Austriloids or Mongolods or Negoriods have differn

things. Lower castes are either Nordic with influence of Austrilods or with some family relation.Caste in India is itself racialism.Such racial and gender biased things have nothing to do with Sikhs.

At present as in past,young boys are told as well young girls in third world countries,to not let any of their family member come to nearer to them.Police,School staff tells parents to avoid such things.Child abuse,even by father raping minor dougther is common in Third World.If Guru made manual for such info for us,then we should be greatfull to him.40 children and women have died at Nithari.Killer raped their dead bodies,Ate their flesh,both raw and roasted.Das is not encouraging that but only describing that objectively.So that others could be carefull of evil.Same is there in Charitar Pakhyans.

























When Guru nanak ji establsihed His sucessor guru..Bhai lehana Ji into Guru angad Ji..and up till Guru Gobind Singh ji....no MEHL of any Guru Sahib was ever in any "leadership".."consultation" position. There is no evidence that Guru Angad ji ever sent any letters to Mata Tripta Ji..or ever "consulted" her on any matters....same for Mata Khivi ji.. Mata Ganga Ji...Mata Gujree Ji..or any others. Guru Hargobind Ji was a BALAK GURU..but there is No evidence that He ever depended on his mother Mata ganga Ji for any advise on SIKHISM..Guru Gobind Singh ji was also a BALAK GURU...there is absolutley no evidence that mata gujjari Ji advised Him or changed any of His decisons..Guru Har Krishan ji was also Balak Guru....no evidence He asked any advise etc from the Mata Jis.
Guru GOBIND SINGH JI passed on His Gurgadhi to Guru Garnth ji Sahib and the KHALSA PANTH ( Punj Piyaras). In His LIFE TIME guru Ji BOWED to the PUNJ on many ocassions to Clearly ESTABLISH this FACT of Gurgadhee - at Vasakhi 1699, At Chamkaur..and also at the Grave of some Muslim Pir.
Such stories and FALSE LETTERS, sent out under august shaheeds names like Bhai mani Singh ji are an attempt to UNDERMINE the Gurgadhee of SGGS and Guru Khalsa Panth by bringing in "Mata Ji"..... Equally nefarious stories were put out that this same Mata Sundari ji, couldnt stand the death of Her Sahibzadah Ajit Singh and "ADOPTED" a boy who looked like Ajit Singh...and later on this boy SHAMED his ADOPTED MOTHER and made her REGRET her action of adopting him. This is an attempt to make out Mata sunder Kaur Ji as an "ordinary mortal" who PINES for Her sons..and NOT as Guru Gobind Singh Ji declared..Chaar moeeah to kia hooa.JEEVAT kaee HAZAAR...so what if my FOUR sons dies..the Khalsa Lives on in its Thousands..all my SONS !! and this same "mortal" mata ji is pursuing the "Human dream" of collecting her husbands literature,banis etc ?? ( Everything that Guru Gobind Singh ji threw away in the Sirsa River )
The Truth is that Mata Ji lived in "house arrest" in Delhi under the watchful eyes of the Mughal Govt ( as the wife of Mortal Eenmy of the State Number One)..and the Govt was successful in DIVIDING the SIKHS into Two groups and thus DEFEAT the Mighty baba banda Singh bahaduir and avert the danger from SIKHS in one stroke. IF one group of SIKHS had NOT DESERTED Banda Singh..he wouldnt have been defeated and the Mughals would have lost earlier. Mata sundari Jis name is also connected to thsi DIVIDE and RULE trategy of the Mughals.
Gyani jarnail Singh

Respected Gyani Sahib,When First Master use to go to Udasis,who use to take care of Kartarpur Sahib or house hold?when Second Master was away at first Master place who took care of his shop?

Our Mothers(wives of Masters) were no where less in any work and Mata Khevi Ji did take care and there is mention of her in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Also there is something being told about her kheer(pudding of rice and milk with suger) of Ghee(purified butter).
There is an instance also which tells that Third Master got attracted to Gurmat after listening to Gurbani sung by a lady,who was his doughter in law and doughter of Second Master.(this proves that ladies wee aware of Gurbani at that time).Then Service done by doughter of Third Master to him.And there is story of a lady who use to bring rice lintil Khichairi for him.One day he did not eat as that lady prayed to Akal,to let way be paved and thunder strom is over.Guru told that it was will of God and Sikh should not give self wishes to Akal.

Wife of Fifth Master is mentioned doing service to great Sikhs(that could be only thing and getting Son as blessing from Baba Budda Ji is made up).

There many huqamnamah attributed to Mata Gujari Ji and Mata Sundari Ji and Mata Sahib Devi Ji regarding the matter of funds.

Mata Gujari took good care of her Son at Patna Sahib.Then there is an instance perhaps in one old book(das is forgetting the name but will try to privde the name as soon as possible but das did read that,it could be Sau Sakhi but das is not sure).There when Guru asked for heads of people.Masands said that Guru has gone insane after meditation under eye peak and Guru Gaddi should be as Tikka be given to elder Sahib Zada.

Guru adrresed his mother (das may not be putting it exactly)Sun Mata Gujari,Sun Jag Ujari.
Later words tell of that Khalsa will forward the name of him and Khalsa is perhaps given the Guruship.

Masands going to Mata tells the position of lady in Gurmat.Then as per Bhangu’s book Mata Sahib Devi put sweet suger cakes in Amrit.

Later Mata Gujari had unprecedented tests.
1.To motivate her Grand Sons to make ultimate sacrifise.\
2.She herself made suprime sacrifise(it is as per missionaries wrong that she died but was killed).

Then coming to Mata Sundari Ji

From historical facts mentioned above three things das wanted to prove.
1.Sikh ladies did take part in logistics of Guru Panth including the Mata Khivi as from family of Guru.
2.Sikh ladies including the family member of Guru knew Gurbani as we see that family member of Second Guru,interoduced Third Guru to Gurmat.
3.Sikhs ladies were well versed to take unto unforeseen circumstances.Mata Gujari motivaded young princes to sacrifise and her gave sacrifise.If this did not happen before then that does mean that it can not happen later.

Say if previous Nine Gurus did not make baptism of saber or surname as Singh,then Tenth can not make so.

Mata Sahib Devi her self was a party of bestowing Guruship to Panth.

So coming to weather Bhai Mani Singh ji got verification of Dasham Granth by Mata Sundari Ji,yes or no.Let us see.

Previously Gurus were there to verify or get the Bani collected but now Guru were not there and Guru Panth under the Bhai Mani Singh Ji did the work.Though more then verification,only progress report is given,to mother.
Mother did know what is Gurbani.As history of Sikh Lady shows.
She was also ready to counter unforeseen circumstances.
She did work for logitics of Panth.If Mata Khivi can take care of langer of food,then why can not Mata Sundari take care Gurbani’s Langer distribution,in the aspects of Meeri and Peeri..

More likely is Bhai Sahib were abiding the order of mother as we see in Letter then say telling her to verify.

So far we had no verses unto female in Guru Granth Sahib and Panth may not like approve Bhai Bannu Beerh with text by Meera Bai.

Yet vide Dasham Granth he have chance to prove woman’s contribution to Sikh texts.But due to Arya Samaji and protestant influence,who talk of male God and use term he for God.It may not be OK for many pro male lobbies.

Anyway another question.Were mothers in house arrest in Moghuls Delhi?

Was she at all working on behest of Moghuls and Causing divide?

Let us see.

Well her Father in Law,Mother in law,Sons and Husbands,all died but did not conceded of being bullied.So why should she be bullied?

There are a few proofs of her acting independently.

1.She opposed Vaishanavim and Dehdhari Gurudom entering into Panth vide Banda.Tat Khalsa helped Moghuls to end Banda(Bhangu’s book).
2.She there after as Bhai Mani Singh Ji went into Amritsar Sahib,made funds of tenthy to go to Punjab ,over there instead of Patna(Bihar was state,where Moghuls were strongers then Sikhs while Sikhs were their rivals at Punjab)(Bhangu’s book).
3.Further in Ganda Singh Ji’s Huqamnammah book,das sees good lot of funds management being done by Mata.(it may not be possible for an arrested person).
4.She went to Delhi after leaving Anandpur Sahib(with Bhai Mani Singh Ji),came back to Guru later and then went to Deccan(Mata Sahib Devi did go but not sure about Mata Sundari).But she did came back to Delhi while Guru went to Sachkhand.

A few more facts on that.

Some Sikhs say that Matiya Mahal in Delhi does mean Matya(Mothers)Palace but not Mud Palace and mother lived there.That place would have been better then Kucha Dilwali Singh(an).Das will talk about that later.

Later her house was shifted to present day Mata Sundari Gurudwara,where old weapons are still kept.That place is out side the walled city of Shahjahanbad.Can some one be jailed outside the city?

Then during the attack of Nadir Shah,Mother was shifted to Mathura(which was more under the jaat control then Moghuls).Later she came back to Delhi and left for Sachkhand and created where Gurudwara Bala Sahib is located.Why should she come back to Delhi,if she was arrested?

Onr more thing.Duirng the time Nadir Shah was plundering India,Parrallel to him did Singhs under Nawab Kapur Singh,made an expeiditon to south.Looted Bahadur Garh,Jhajjer,Pataudi,Mehrauli and Faridabad,this makes circle fo Delhi from north west to south.Over here they were paid tribute.Then he crossed Jamuna and attacked Farukhbad.Bangash of that Area raised Jehad and first time Sikhs were challenged in this expedition.Over here as expected Sikhs one.Welath obtained was so much that they decided to go back,as only way to take care of wealth correctly.From this wealth only later Sikhs defeated Nadir Shah,starting mission from Akhnur and librating all slaves(Nawab Kapur Singh,a book by person with surname Hoti Mardan).

Well if Mata was at Mathura and Nawab passed Faridabad,then had Mata was arrested Khalsa had have librated her?

Then coming to some more facts.

Mata lost her husband and sons in young age.She was taking care of Khalsa’s affair.If she had capability to raise more Khalsa sons with funds,education and motherly care then Sahib Zada are all Sikhs.

In ltter there has been instance by Bhai Mani Singh Ji about ornaments of 4 tolas about wife of Sahib Zada and from Guru Ke Khadur.Some old text say that Eldest Sahibzada was married and had son Hati Singh.But even if that is in correct,we need to know that mothers keep the ornaments for son’s bride even when son is unmaaried.Das’s Punjab mother has kept such stuff,while das is yet to marry.So talk of ornaments should be taken in that account and that 4 tola was to be used for some other work.

There are three other young men who were taken care of by Guru or mother,
1.Jorawar Singh perhaps,who had carpenter ancestors and,he died fighting Rajputs in Rajasthan,while moving with Guru.(Guru went with Bahadur Shah in Rajputana).
2.Another son who also had past family history with carpenters and Mother took care of him.He was killed in Delhi fighting some Muslims.(this could be story made up of ,to conceal the death of Hati Singh(Grand Son of Guru) fighting Muslims or perhaps this is OK).
3.Last but not the least.First Sikh King.Sultan Al Qaum Jassa Singh of Ahlu from Kalal(lower caste making wine) ancestors spent his child hood under the motherly shadow of Mata Sundari.After making him well educated,he was sent to Nawab for practice military life by Mata.

As he lived in Hindi speaking Delhi,he spoke Hindi,Khalsa use to make fun of him.He complained to Nawab.Nawab Said,"respect the views of Guru’s Army and be humble to them,They made me Nawab,if they are happy,they will make you Sultan".This did happen.How can such child be raised in house arrest?

Mother’s place in Delhi was more a centre to preach Sikhi,Gather info about moghul court,having knowledge and contact with other rising powers.

Then what made moghuls not putting hand on mother?

1.Sikhs like higher caste of Kucha Delwali were weak hearted and caste affected.So they were on fringe.But lower castes like Banjaras around were ample strong in faith.They were and are around Delhi.And had good money power then due to work of blacksmith and trade.Moghuls needed mony
ey.
2.Moghul couort by that time became hub of conspiracy.Some kings were more bothered to have wine and women.Courters like Sayyad Brothers,nizam etc. encouraged weak kings and sometime kings were killed by court people.They were more busy with pulling each other legs or dealing with other powers like Marathas.State of Punjab was more autonoumus under Abu Samda Khan and Zakariya Khan.Who also has Sikh employees like Subeg Singh and father of Jassa Singh Ramgarhiya(who fought against Nadir Shah in Army of Zakariya Khan,his village was Ichhogil).Each Sikh was targeted a bit later then Moghuls giving Nawabi of Dipal pur to Nawab Kapur Singh Ji.Under Moghuls meer mannu vide Kauramal was not Anti to Sikhs,All changed after Abdali took over.
3.Sikhs around Delhi were strong and moghuls been weak and not affecting Sikhs say in Deccan and Patna Sahib outside Punjab also tells about Sikhs being OK in Delhi,then.
4.But there were some great Hindu allies of Sikhs,who were on the door of Delhi and Moghul and Muslims could not touch mother.
a)Jaats of Braj.South of Delhi about 20 kilo meter,there is fort called Ballabhgarh.Named after king Balu or Baldev,who was one of the rescuded king from Gwalior fort.He made a village Dayalpur named after mercy(daya) of Sixth Master.Village is there and Gurudwara is there and their attachment to Gurmat is still there.Ninth Guru was secretly transferred from
Agra to Delhi,fearing these jaats rebelling to rescue Guru.Later on as per Bhangu’s book,there are mnay instances of Sikhs uniting with jaats againsts Ruhellas,Afghans and Marathas.Last king of Ballabgarh died ,at Delhi,in freedom struggle/mutiny of 1857 and was known as Nahar Singh.

b)Gujars of West UP were highly pro Sikhs(from the time of Banda to later Sikhs tribute Area going uptill Kasganj in mid UP).
c)King of Jaipur,Kushwaha Rajput,was host of Eight Master,Later Ram Singh took Ninth Master to Assam,as his Guru.Later when Sikhs attacked Jaipur,their agent said,that we are Sikh of same Guru and Sikhs left that state peacefully(Bhangu’s book).As per Taksal 48 person,who got enlightened at Guru Ki Kashi, one was King of Jaipur and another one was kinig of Jodhpur.

Das has seen one Gurudwara each related to Tenth Master at Jaipur and Pushkar.

Boundary of Khushwaha kingdom also is not much far from Delhi.

Both Tewatiaya Jaats and Kushwaha rajputs were a great power in Moghul court.Had Moghuls touched Mother,they would have created hell for Moghuls.(Jaat churaman also fought a battle against Banda but old book talks of Tat Khalsa also fighting Banda*)

3). Were only Hindus pro to mother?
No!.

In Delhi there are places like Sis Mahal and Matiya Mahal,where Punjabi Muslims live.They were those Khatris,who claim that they were going to Haridwar and met Shamas Tabrez en route.He told then to close their eyes and when they opmed they found themselves at Haridwar.They became Muslim.They are a great force still in Delhi.They have grave yard near Idgah,where they do ot allowe non Punjabi to be buried.

They have great sufi ideology at back.As they became Muslim with the influence of Shamas tabrez.Sufi as we know were main guys behind release of Sixth Master from Gwalior fort.(Moghuls were conselled by Chisti of Punjab,at the place of Hazrat Nizamudeen Chisti(RA) at Delhi.

Till this day,das sees this Muslims with Malhotra,Chawla,Bathla surname bowing to Prabhat Pheris or welcoming the Nagar Kirtan of First Master wide old Delhi. Being from RSS past,das use to feel uneasy,but after knowing brotherly relation of PAnth with Sufis das understood that not the Punjabi Khatri factor but Sufi factor makes them pro Gurmat else Lakhpat,was also a Punjabi Hindu Khatri,who caused the lesser holocaust of Sikhs.

There nearness to Matiya Mahal points about a strong Muslim Class and that was pro mother.

With all that theory that mother was under house arrest seems weak.





* note.In Maas Maas Kar Murakh Jhagre,the conflict of Sikhs with Banda is mentoned by Kala Afghan Sahib Ji. He seems to potray himself nearer to Tat Khalsa vegis near Bandai.Sucham,personal worship,removal of Banda from seat or Gaddi at Darbar Sahib.etc is been talked about by some regarding Banda.Bhangu’s book can be of some help on that.​
 
Dec 1, 2006
315
186
Side Note: We must know that the writer when referring to the king near Satluj river, is directing the talk towards Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It is further made clear when it says that followers from all over the places came and received boons. Not only that, it also talks about the king being young and a religious leader. There should be no doubt that it is directed towards Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
Chariter 16
Dohra
Near the Satluj River, a king lived happily. A prostitute arrived in the city to make money. 1.
Investigation: Anandpur was newly established and was under control of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Sikhs mostly lived there so it is hard to believe that a prostitute would have customers in Anandpur Sahib. Is this not an attack on character of Sikhs?
Arill
Everyone knew her as Shujeeya but her lovers referred to her as Ludeeya. Every man who saw her, became attracted to her and received pleasure in the heart. 2.
Investigation: Who were her lovers? Were they Sikhs? The writer fails to make it clear. Did the Sikhs also become attracted to her and visited her? Is this not an attack on character of Sikhs?
Dohra
She was attracted towards the king but she could not convince him. She thought about ideas to meet the king. 3.
(She thought) He doesn’t for love me so what should be done? He doesn’t come to my house and neither does he call me to his house). 4.
Some way has to be found to meet him fast. She thought that maybe he could be won over through jantars and mantars. 5.
She was exhausted trying jantars and mnatars but he king didn’t visit her. Then she plotted a ploy to allure the king. 6.
She dressed in orange clothing which the Yogis wear and bowed to the king when entering the king’s court. 7.
Investigation: Did the prostitute not know where she was going? Did she think that the Guru would fall for her? Is this not an attack on Guru Sahib? Is this not questioning the character of Guru Sahib? Then the writer says that she tries jantars and mantars. Maybe the writer didn’t know but Gurmat doesn’t agree to performing mantars. It is strictly against Gurmat. The writer again fails to mention that mantars are against Gurmat. Also Guru Ji was so unaware that he could not tell the difference between a woman dressed as a yogi and a man dressed as a yogi? Is this not an attack on the greatness of Guru Gobind Singh Ji?
Arill
Seeing the Yogi, the king was impressed internally and thought about receiving some mantars from the yogi. King called a messenger, told him what to say and sent him to the Yogi (prostitute) so he the king could learn the skill of mantars. 8.
Investigation: Once again, the writer makes Guru Gobind Singh Ji as a king searching for mantars. Someone could say that the mantars here don’t mean the magic spells but it means consultation or virtues. Even if that point is accepted, it still doesn’t make it correct as there is no reason to learn virtues from a yogi or have consultation with yogis on Panthic or even personal matters. Guru is the one who teaches others, not the other way around. However, the mantars here mean magic spells. This will be proven later in the chariter. Is this not slandering Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Could someone promoting this garbage be considered a Sikh of Guru Nanak or Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Is there any shame left?
Chaupai
King’s servant went to the Yogi. Whatever the king had said, the servant repeated to the Yogi. Servant asked the Yogi to give some mantars to the king and to please complete this task for his boss (king). 9.
Investigation: So Guru was sending his servants to make appointments to learn mantars from yogis? Why was Guru Sahib so desperate to learn mantars when they are not even as per Gurmat? Guru Sahib said something and did something?
Dohra
The yogi opened his/her eyes after 3 hours and told the servant to bring the king to her/his house if the king wanted to learn virtues. 10.
Bring him to me at midnight. With Gorakh’s blessing, the king will not go back empty handed. 11.
Investigation: Why did the yogi have her/his eyes closed for 3 hours? Closing eyes is also against Gurmat. Gurbani calls it hypocrisy and the writer again fails to mention this. The writer then says with Gorakh’s blessings; here Gorakh means Gorakh Naath the yogi. Gurmat only says to worship Akaal and look for help from Akaal. Not some deities or humans or saints, no matter how great they are. This is evidenced in the concept of ‘Pooja Akaal Kee’ meaning worship of God. God is worshipped by following Gurbani. Gorakh Naath was the founder of the yogi sect of Hinduism. Was Gorakh Nath greater than Guru Nanak that the 10th Nanak had to go to a follower of Gorakh to learn virtues? Guru Nanak proved the path of yogis wrong as evidenced in ‘Sidh Gost’ written in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Tria Chariter promoters say that those questioning Tria Chariters are questioning Guru and Gurbani. After reading this verse, it should clear on who is questioning Guru and Gurbani.
Chaupai
The servant relayed the message back to the king and woke him up at midnight. He took the king to the yogi’s house. Upon seeing the king, the yogi felt great pleasure. 12.
Investigation: Who cares if the yogi felt pleasure or not. What does it have to do with Gurmat?
Dohra
Yogi asked the king to send all the people away from the site and call for sandalwood sticks, wick lamp, rice, flowers and good liquor. 13.
The king did as asked and told the people to go away. He also received the sandalwood sticks, wick lamp, rice, flowers and good liquor. 14.
Then the king sent all of his people away and stayed there pleasurably to learn the mantar. 15.
Investigation: What does liquor have to do with virtues and what do others items have to do with learning virtues? Items such as wick lamps, sandalwood, rice, flowers, etc. are used in learning mantars (magic spells) and not when learning virtues. Therefore, it should be clear that the mantars here mean magic spells which are against fundamentals of Gurmat. Once again the writer tries to make Guru Gobind Singh Ji look like a person who doesn’t know much about his surroundings. This is a direct attack on Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
Chaupai
When the king was alone, the yogi said that I will show you magic now and will teach you the mantar later. 16.
Investigation: Gurmat also doesn’t accept showing off of magic powers. Once again, the writer fails to mention that this is against Gurmat.
Dohra
From male, I will become a female, and then I will become a male again. Being a male, I will teach you mantar and being a female, I will have sex with you. 17.
Investigation: There should be no confusion here as this is not magic but a fraud. There is nothing special in looking like a woman and then looking like a man. Only a confused person would want to look like the opposite gender. Example, those who shave hair are usually confused as they want to cut hair and look more like females than males.
King Said:
The male who gives mantar is like a father and woman who gives mantar is like a mother. They are to be served and are not be had sexual intercourse with. 18.
Investigation: These statements which seem like the writer is promoting Gurmat are just sugar-coating on poison. Don’t be fooled by these.
Arill
Guru has to be served for mamy years and then after trying hard, the mantar has to be received. Therefore, it is proper to bow to Guru. Hey witty! Then tell me why should sex be had with him/her? 19.
Investigation: So suddenly the yogi becomes Guru of Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Where are the brains of promoters of this slandering of Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Do these people have mental problems? Is their mission to promote these yogis or other anti-Gurmat paths as better than the path of Guru Nanak? Who are the real slanderers of Guru? Promoters of such stories or the ones who oppose these?
Chaupai
Then the yogi said that I performed his clever act to meet you. Now have sex with me my beloved. Now get on my bed. 20.
Investigation: Did the woman think that Guru Sahib was so easily going to get on her bed and have sex with her?
Dohra
My body has been thirsting to meet you and my body parts have become weak. Hey beloved! Come and accommodate yourself on my bed and make love with me today. 21.
If you try to run away then I will get you caught as a thief and if you let me go, I will speak foul to you. Otherwise, have sex with me without a thought. 22.
When a woman, filled with lust, comes to the one who she loves and if the loved one lets her go without fulfilling her desire, that person shall be thrown in deep hell. 23.
If a woman’s body is filled with lust but a man refuses to fulfill her desires, he should be thrown into the deep pit of hell. 24.
Investigation: So people of Anandpur had the character of Guru Sahib in question that they would believe a prostitute and accept Guru Ji as a thief? Guru Ji wasn’t like a lot of the Gurudwara committee members or granthis who steal money from Gurudwaras. Did the prostitute seriously think that her threats and tactics were going to work? What are the threats of being thrown in hell to Guru? Even Sikhs don’t care about hell or heaven so then why would Guru believe in it? Gurmat rejects the hells and heavens after death. Writer again fails to preach Gurmat and keeps promoting Sikhs and their Guru as followers of Hindu philosophy.
Arill
Creator has given me birth in the house of a prostitute. I took the appearance of a Yogi to meet you. Now quickly place yourself on my bed. I will live as your slave. Don’t make me more anxious. 25.
Investigation: So is it Guru’s fault that she is born in a prostitute’s house? She didn’t have to be a prostitute. What is the purpose of writing that the appearance of yogi was only taken to meet the king? Also Guru Sahib didn’t look for slaves. Guru Sahib freed the people from slavery; not made them slaves.
Dohra
So what if you are smart and are young adult. I have been pierced by separation from you so don’t leave my desire unfilled. 26.
Investigation: It looks like the woman is lecturing Guru on what to do rather than Guru Sahib lecturing her on what is right and what is wrong.
Arill
Don’t waste the time anymore. I am under control of lust. I am drowned in lust up to my head. Don’t let me off with sexual intercourse and don’t have ego due to my desire like black clouded night. 27.
People come to you from all over the places and receive the boons which they wish for. What wrong have I done that I can not have you? I will be the slave of your slaves. Proceed to my bed. 28.
The king said that he came to learn mantars and that she played this act. Why should I have sexual intercourse with you? I am really scared of falling from my faith. 29.
Investigation: Then the prostitute accuses Guru Sahib of having ego because he didn’t agree to her wishes according to the story. Is it ego to keep moral code of conduct and refuse to participate it morally corrupt acts? So Guru Sahib refused to have sex because of fear of falling from faith and nothing to do with morals and shame? If Guru Sahib wasn’t the Guru of Sikhs, he would have agreed to the prostitute and participated in sexual activity? How low are the Tria Chariter promoters going to fall morally? Don’t these people fear God when they slander Guru by linking such garbage to Guru Sahib?
Chaupai
That woman tried persuasion through many ways. She tried many opinions and persuasions. She tried many jantars and mantars. However, she could not persuade the king into her hands. 30.
Investigation: Mantars don’t work on Gursikhs so forget about trying them on Guru. Shows the lack of knowledge the writer has.
Arill
She went into the veranda and started shouting “thief” “thief”. She tried to scare the king to meet him. She came back to him and said to listen to her. She said that the king can either have sex with her or she will get him tied up. 31.
Hearing “thief” “thief”, people came to the location. Woman told the people that she started talking while in her sleep. When the people were gone, she held the hand of the king. She told the king to have sexual intercourse with or her face being tied up. 32.
Investigation: It says the king’s hand was held by her. Didn’t the king snap his hand away from her? Guru Sahib didn’t mind prostitutes holding his hand? Isn’t this an attack on character of Guru Sahib?
Dohra
Then the king thought in his mind that the concept of mantars is to put on an act and run away. 33.
If I run, I lose honor. If I have sexual intercourse, I fall from religion. Due to both of these issues, the situation has become very hard to handle. May God protect me now. 34.
Then king thought that if a son is born, he will become a pimp and if a daughter is born, she will be a prostitute. By having sexual intercourse, religion is lost and by running, I will be tied up. 35.
Investigation: Does the verse talking about having pimp or prostitute as child according to Gurmat? Does this mean Guru Sahib would have fulfilled her wish had it not been the fear of child being born as prostitute or pimp? Is this not a direct attack on character of Guru Sahib?
Chaupai
King said, “hey beloved! Listen to me. I was just checking you devotion towards me. Whoever finds a beautiful woman like you and lets her go, is a big imbecile. 36.
Investigation: The woman keeps calling Guru Sahib as beloved in a *******ed way and Guru Sahib doesn’t say a word to stop her? How low the chariter promoters going to go to link this garbage to Guru Sahib? Would Guru Sahib ever say that the one who lets go of a beautiful woman is an idiot? When are these enemies of Guru and Guru’s Panth going to stop attacking Guru and Gurmat?
Dohra
If a beautiful woman like you is received, anyone who thinks about forsaking her, his having birth is shameful. 37.
Get a large amount of poppy husk, cannabis, and opium quickly. Being happy from the heart, feed me cannabis. 38.
You drink a lot of liquor and feed me cannabis. I will have sexual intercourse with you for 12 hours. 39.
Investigation: So all those who follow Gurmat had no point in being born? Is this not a direct attack on Gurmat? Is this what the naked legs ones read and promote as Gurmat? Would Guru Sahib ever order drugs? Would Guru Sahib ever tell a woman who doesn’t belong to him that he would have sex with her for 12 hours? Are these stories the reasons why they are often caught in sex scandals or rapes? Can these people ever be considered Sikhs? According to the rehat maryada, they can not be. This is the reason why they reject the rehat maryada and make their own maraydas. Who are the real enemies of Guru? Those who promote garbage like this or the ones who oppose it?
Chaupai
Without knowing, she became joyful after listening to these words. She could not tell between fact and falseness. Being really happy in the heart, she ordered the drugs the king had ordered. 40.
Investigation: The writer seems to have a grudge against women. Maybe his wife ran away or performed one the tricks on someone else. What is so great about fooling women? Is this Gurmat?
Dohra
Poppy husk, cannabis, opium and deep grinded cannabis and liquor prepared seven times were brought. 41.
Investigation: Isn’t this verse promoting drugs? Not once have drugs been denounced in the chariter. Would Guru Sahib not say how bad drugs are? Shows that this isn’t work of Guru Sahib.
Arill
Then the king thought in the mind. Today I will not have sex with her. This is the wisdom from the mantar. I will make her really high on drugs and lie her down on the bed and will run away saving my religion. I will give her 60 coins before going. 42.
Investigation: What did the king mean by not today? King was planning to indulge in sexual activity some other time? What were the 60 coins going to be given for? Was the prostitute a great preacher of Gurmat? Did she invent a special device to help people succeed in day to day activities? Does it mean it is good to give prostitutes money and make them happy? How low are the Panth enemies going to go to promote this garbage? Can these people ever be called Sikhs?
Dohra
She does not understand love. She only cares about money. Are scorpions, snakes and prostitutes ever friends of anyone? 43.
Increasing pleasure, the king made her drink a lot of liquor and to run away, he made her lofty and got her to sleep on the bed. 44.
The king fed her liquor with his own hands and through this act, drugged her up and made her sleep on the bed. 45.
Investigation: So Guru Sahib filled glasses of liquor with his own hands and got her to drink it with his own hands? Can anyone ever think of Guru Sahib filling glasses of liquor and putting them to the mouth of a woman? Is this Gurmat?
Arill
King filled glasses and fed her with his hands. He showed a lot of love towards the prostitute. When she got high and went to sleep, the king placed 60 coins there and ran away. 46.
If a woman loves you, do not love her. If she becomes intoxicated in you sweetness, do not ruin yourself in her sweetness. If you can not understand the feelings of a woman, make sure she doesn’t know the thought of your heart. 47.
Investigation: Why are the same lines being repeated again and again? It seems like the writer was also under influence of drugs while composing this garbage. When he says not to love woman, which woman is he talking about? Does it include the wife? Is it doesn’t then why isn’t it made clear? If it does include the wife, then how can 2 bodies function as one if there is no trust? Is this Gurmat philosophy?
Dohra
Making the woman unconscious (with drugs) and giving her 60 coins, the king ran away. He reached home and no one saw him coming. 48.
Investigation: So the king did indeed run away? If no one saw him coming home, then how did the writer know? The writer is none other than poet Raam. Is poet Raam the Guru of these chariter promoters? Those who do accept that these are writings of poets and say these are accepted writings, do they even know what Gurmat is? Also, who accepted these writings? Is mahant narainu and company or is it is children of narainu (also known as modern mahants)? So if someone wanted to make money, just act as a prostitute and try to lure Guru of Sikhs. Those who sell their souls to RSS are no better than prostitutes like Shujeeya.
Arill
Then the king came home and made a vow that he saved his faith this time with some good tricks. He vowed that he would now spread the greatness of his God throughout many countries and states. He also vowed not to look at other women. 49.
Investigation: Does this verse mean Guru Sahib wasn’t telling people about God or spreading greatness of God before? Does this mean Guru Sahib used to check out women before this incidence? How low are the chariter promoters going to get? How far will they go to ruin the image of great Guru Sahib? Is there no shame or religious conduct left?
Dohra
The lesson from that day is in my heart. Since that day, I have not been looking at other women. 50.
Investigation: Once again, does this mean Guru Sahib used to look at women in a sexual way before this incidence? How low are the promoters of such garbage going to go? D they fear God or Guru? Do they have no shame insulting Guru who sacrificed everything for them? Do they have no shame defaming the Guru, due to whom they have huge bellies and make a living? How far will they go to ruin the image of great Guru Sahib? Is there no shame or religious conduct left? Will anyone take action? If you care and love Guru, then spread this article to everyone you know. Otherwise, you can join the chariter promoters and become an enemy of Guru. So it is up to you to decide on which side to take. Which one will you take? Will you spread this article to everyone you know who claims to be a Sikh?

Some lines such as “sandalwood, wick lamp, rice, flowers and good liquor was brought” are repeated again and again. This shows that the writer wasn’t in the right state of mind when writing these chariters. This turns out to be more of a male chariter rather than a female chariter. Also, not to forget, in the end, the prostitute wins as her motive to collect money was also fulfilled. This is a direct attack towards Guru Gobind Singh Ji. No Sikh of Guru Nanak will tolerate this and can never accept this litter as Gurbani.

Chariter 16 translation and analysis completed!

Please kindly forgive any mistakes and provide any suggestions.

Harmanjit Singh
mannharm66@hotmail.com
 
📌 For all latest updates, follow the Official Sikh Philosophy Network Whatsapp Channel:

Latest Activity

Top