Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[kds1980]

ek musafir ji it looks like what you say is gurmat and what other says is manmat
there are many scholars of gurbani on this site not even a single one has blamed this article of propagating manmat
akal takhat rehat maryada which was prepared after decades of research by sikh scholars says that only halaal
is banned.but people like you think that those scholars were wrong
akal takhat issued hukamnama that amritdhari can eat jhatka meat.but people like don't have any respect for it
guru nanak dev ji wrote a full shabad that there is nothing wrong in meat but people like you just try to ignore
that shabad and search single lines from other shabads to prove that meat eating is wrong.and then you people talk of panthic unity.

if your conclusion that meat eating is objected in above lines is true
then what about the whole shabad that guru nanak dev ji dedicated to this
meat issue

मासु मासु करि मूरखु झगड़े गिआनु धिआनु नही जाणै ॥
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.


ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
कउणु मासु कउणु सागु कहावै किसु महि पाप समाणे ॥
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?


ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਏ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥
गैंडा मारि होम जग कीए देवतिआ की बाणे ॥
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.


ਮਾਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥
मासु छोडि बैसि नकु पकड़हि राती माणस खाणे ॥
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.


ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥
फड़ु करि लोकां नो दिखलावहि गिआनु धिआनु नही सूझै ॥
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.


ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥
नानक अंधे सिउ किआ कहीऐ कहै न कहिआ बूझै ॥
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.


ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
अंधा सोइ जि अंधु कमावै तिसु रिदै सि लोचन नाही ॥
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.


ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥
मात पिता की रकतु निपंने मछी मासु न खांही ॥
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

it looks like that you are completely ignoring this shabad.while you are picking quotes from other shabads to prove your point.

so does it mean that in 1 shabad it is written that there is nothing wrong in meat and in other shabad it is written meat eating is wrong. are there contradictions in guru granth sahib.?

 

[Randip Singh]

Most of the comments above are constructive....you have not demonstrated one salient point, Ekh Musafir. In fact you seem to confirm the premise of the essay.

Note to Mod.....where are my missing posts?

 

[Randip Singh]

On Murdaar page 469

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:

ਲਬੁ ਪਾਪੁ ਦੁਇ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਹਤਾ ਕੂੜੁ ਹੋਆ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੁ ॥
लबु पापु दुइ राजा महता कूड़ु होआ सिकदारु ॥
lab paap du-ay raajaa mahtaa koorh ho-aa sikdaar.
Greed and sin are the king and prime minister; falsehood is the treasurer.

ਕਾਮੁ ਨੇਬੁ ਸਦਿ ਪੁਛੀਐ ਬਹਿ ਬਹਿ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
कामु नेबु सदि पुछीऐ बहि बहि करे बीचारु ॥
kaam nayb sad puchhee-ai bahi bahi karay beechaar.
Sexual desire, the chief advisor, is summoned and consulted; they all sit together and contemplate their plans.

ਅੰਧੀ ਰਯਤਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ਭਾਹਿ ਭਰੇ ਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ ॥
अंधी रयति गिआन विहूणी भाहि भरे मुरदारु ॥
anDhee rayat gi-aan vihoonee bhaahi bharay murdaar.
Their subjects are blind, and without wisdom, they try to please the will of the dead.

ਗਿਆਨੀ ਨਚਹਿ ਵਾਜੇ ਵਾਵਹਿ ਰੂਪ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ॥
गिआनी नचहि वाजे वावहि रूप करहि सीगारु ॥
gi-aanee nacheh vaajay vaaveh roop karahi seegaar.
The spiritually wise dance and play their musical instruments, adorning themselves with beautiful decorations.

ਊਚੇ ਕੂਕਹਿ ਵਾਦਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋਧਾ ਕਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
ऊचे कूकहि वादा गावहि जोधा का वीचारु ॥
oochay kookeh vaadaa gaavahi joDhaa kaa veechaar.
They shout out loud, and sing epic poems and heroic stories.

ਮੂਰਖ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਹਿਕਮਤਿ ਹੁਜਤਿ ਸੰਜੈ ਕਰਹਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
मूरख पंडित हिकमति हुजति संजै करहि पिआरु ॥
moorakh pandit hikmat hujat sanjai karahi pi-aar.
The fools call themselves spiritual scholars, and by their clever tricks, they love to gather wealth.

ਧਰਮੀ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਗਾਵਾਵਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
धरमी धरमु करहि गावावहि मंगहि मोख दुआरु ॥
Dharmee Dharam karahi gaavaaveh mangeh mokh du-aar.
The righteous waste their righteousness, by asking for the door of salvation.

ਜਤੀ ਸਦਾਵਹਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਛਡਿ ਬਹਹਿ ਘਰ ਬਾਰੁ ॥
जती सदावहि जुगति न जाणहि छडि बहहि घर बारु ॥
jatee sadaaveh jugat na jaaneh chhad baheh ghar baar.
They call themselves celibate, and abandon their homes, but they do not know the true way of life.

ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਪੂਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਟਿ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ॥
सभु को पूरा आपे होवै घटि न कोई आखै ॥
sabh ko pooraa aapay hovai ghat na ko-ee aakhai.
Everyone calls himself perfect; none call themselves imperfect.

ਪਤਿ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਤੋਲਿਆ ਜਾਪੈ ॥੨॥
पति परवाणा पिछै पाईऐ ता नानक तोलिआ जापै ॥२॥
pat parvaanaa pichhai paa-ee-ai taa naanak toli-aa jaapai. ||2||
If the weight of honor is placed on the scale, then, O Nanak, one sees his true weight. ||2||

Her one can clearly see the word Mudaar is used to refer to the dead. It does not mean meat at all. Like I have stated previosly, it is the differnce between a blade of grass and a loaf of bread. The bread may have come from a form of grass whish is wheat but it is NOT grass. To imply so is wrong and gross misinterpretation of Bani.

 

[Randip Singh]

Words used to describe fleah/meat in Bani:

Page 142, Line 12
ਕਿਆ ਮੇਵਾ ਕਿਆ ਘਿਉ ਗੁੜੁ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੈਦਾ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਸੁ ॥
किआ मेवा किआ घिउ गुड़ु मिठा किआ मैदा किआ मासु ॥
ki-aa mayvaa ki-aa ghi-o gurh mithaa ki-aa maidaa ki-aa maas.
What good are fruits, what good is ghee, sweet jaggery, what good is flour, and what good is meat?
Guru Nanak Dev -

Page 144, Line 10
ਘਾਹੁ ਖਾਨਿ ਤਿਨਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਖਵਾਲੇ ਏਹਿ ਚਲਾਏ ਰਾਹ ॥
घाहु खानि तिना मासु खवाले एहि चलाए राह ॥
ghaahu khaan tinaa maas khavaalay ayhi chalaa-ay raah.
And those animals which eat grass-He could make them eat meat. He could make them follow this way of life.
Guru Nanak Dev -

Page 168, Line 6
ਜੈਸੇ ਕਾਤੀ ਤੀਸ ਬਤੀਸ ਹੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਰਸਨਾ ਮਾਸ ਰਤੁ ਕੇਰੀ ॥
जैसे काती तीस बतीस है विचि राखै रसना मास रतु केरी ॥
jaisay kaatee tees batees hai vich raakhai rasnaa maas rat kayree.
Just as the tongue, made of flesh and blood, is protected within the scissors of the thirty-two teeth -
Guru Ram Das -

Page 168, Line 6
ਕੋਈ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਮਾਸ ਕਾਤੀ ਕੈ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਵਸਗਤਿ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਕੇਰੀ ॥
कोई जाणहु मास काती कै किछु हाथि है सभ वसगति है हरि केरी ॥
ko-ee jaanhu maas kaatee kai kichh haath hai sabh vasgat hai har kayree.
who thinks that the power lies in the flesh or the scissors? Everything is in the Power of the Lord.
Guru Ram Das -

Page 553, Line 4
ਗੁਣ ਮੰਡੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਘਿਉ ਸਰਮੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥
गुण मंडे करि सीलु घिउ सरमु मासु आहारु ॥
gun manday kar seel ghi-o saram maas aahaar.
Make virtue your bread, good conduct the ghee, and modesty the meat to eat.
Mardana -

Page 553, Line 6
ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁੜੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਮੰਡੇ ਭਉ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥
गिआनु गुड़ु सालाह मंडे भउ मासु आहारु ॥
gi-aan gurh saalaah manday bha-o maas aahaar.
So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, the Praise of God your bread, and the Fear of God the meat you eat.
Mardana -

Page 659, Line 3
ਹਾਡ ਮਾਸ ਨਾੜਂ*ੀ ਕੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਬਸੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
हाड मास नाड़ीं को पिंजरु पंखी बसै बिचारा ॥१॥
haad maas naarheeN ko pinjar pankhee basai bichaaraa. ||1||
The framework is made up of bones, flesh and veins; the poor soul-bird dwells within it. ||1||
Devotee Ravidas -

Page 660, Line 12
ਸਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਸਭੁ ਜੀਉ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਤੂ ਮੈ ਖਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ॥
सासु मासु सभु जीउ तुमारा तू मै खरा पिआरा ॥
saas maas sabh jee-o tumaaraa too mai kharaa pi-aaraa.
My breath, my flesh and my soul are all Yours, Lord; You are so very dear to me.
Guru Nanak Dev -

Page 898, Line 15
ਦੀਸਤ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਇ ਬਿਲਾਈ ॥
दीसत मासु न खाइ बिलाई ॥
deesat maas na khaa-ay bilaa-ee.
The cat sees the meat, but does not eat it,
Guru Arjan Dev -

Page 1180, Line 10
ਸਿੰਘ ਰੁਚੈ ਸਦ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਮਾਸ ॥
सिंघ रुचै सद भोजनु मास ॥
singh ruchai sad bhojan maas.
The tiger always wants to eat meat.
Guru Arjan Dev -

Page 1216, Line 7
ਊਹੀ ਤੇ ਹਰਿਓ ਊਹਾ ਲੇ ਧਰਿਓ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਸਾ ਮਾਸ ਦੇਤ ਝਾਟੁਲੀ ॥
ऊही ते हरिओ ऊहा ले धरिओ जैसे बासा मास देत झाटुली ॥
oohee tay hari-o oohaa lay Dhari-o jaisay baasaa maas dayt jhaatulee.
You move things from here to there, like the hawk swooping down on the flesh of its prey.
Guru Arjan Dev -

etc....point is Bani is specific when it wants to describe meat.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

KDS 1980,

मासु मासु करि मूरखु झगड़े गिआनु धिआनु नही जाणै ॥
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
कउणु मासु कउणु सागु कहावै किसु महि पाप समाणे ॥
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਏ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥
गैंडा मारि होम जग कीए देवतिआ की बाणे ॥
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

ਮਾਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥
मासु छोडि बैसि नकु पकड़हि राती माणस खाणे ॥
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥
फड़ु करि लोकां नो दिखलावहि गिआनु धिआनु नही सूझै ॥
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥
नानक अंधे सिउ किआ कहीऐ कहै न कहिआ बूझै ॥
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
अंधा सोइ जि अंधु कमावै तिसु रिदै सि लोचन नाही ॥
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥
मात पिता की रकतु निपंने मछी मासु न खांही ॥
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

KDS1980
I understand the text of this shabad. I will come back to this shabad in due course. Thank you very for its introduction.

akal takhat rehat maryada which was prepared after decades of research by sikh scholars says that only halaal is banned.but people like you think that those scholars were wrong akal takhat issued hukamnama that amritdhari can eat jhatka meat.but people like don't have any respect for it

I accept I have used the word "Manmat" but let us not go astray from the main topic. I have agreed with Randip Singh to refrain from the use of these words. I hope you too will respect that.

"People like you" - Please do not jump to conclusions on my character. You may feel comfortable with a blind fold and follow the mainstream but I do not want to.

As a sikh, I would like you also to come forth with an open mind and make a fruitful contribution. At the end of the day it may turn out that I am wrong. I will gladly accept that. At least it will not be on my conscience. I can rest in peace. But if I am proven right then............just imagine how many potential souls will be helped.

Short of the Gurus or interference by some devine authority coming down to resolve this matter this issue probably cannot not be resolved. People are set in their ways. My belief is that Sikhism is based on logic. Take any verse in SGGS and you will find a logic behind its existance. So I request you and all other members to join forces and with the blessings of our Gurus we will come to know the righteous path and avoid possible mis-interpretations in the future.

You may have come across many cases where the Courts of the law have come to wrong conclusions and sentenced the individual and after many years it is realised that the decision made at the time was wrong and the case re-opens. We are living in Kalyug under its rules. It is bound to put a blindfold over our eyes. Evil/negative thoughts shall only flourishes under its regime.

I accept your sentiments with regards to Akal Takhat, the final authority in making decisions for the Sikh Panth. Those people up there are still ordinary human beings. There is a lot of politics going on there. A Lot goes on behind the scenes that does not get to the likes of you and me.

My conscience does not accept this line of thought. And yes all those scholars can be wrong. In order to come to a conclusion we have to start somewhere. And yes I start with the assumtion that those scholars are wrong or mistaken. I do not wish to be sheep among the herd. If you can make a useful contribution to this subject then I would very much appreciate your assistance. Otherwise please watch this space.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Originally Posted by randip singh
No a dead body is not meat.......it is a dead body. I see a dead body on the road I would not classify it as meat. In the same way I would not classify a blade of grass as bread.

Randip ji a dead body is a body without life whether it is lying in the street or a slaughter house. It can belong to human or for that matter to an animal. You may not see meat in it but for a hungry animal it is a source of food - it is flesh - it is meat.

I am now getting the impression that you are denying the existance of the word meat. Are you ?

If it makes you happy to refer to me as a "Pandit" then that is fine. A Pandit is a person with knowledge. I will put my argument forward with a backing and you do the same.

The above nonsense you have written makes no sense to the explanation. You have disproved nothing.

I have given you a constructive response and had requested you to respond in a similar way. The information presented is very legible. I have broken it down as much as possible so evry one can understand it. As an authority on this subject please back your statements like a professional would do.

Allow me access to your research data on this topic so that I can satisfy for myself that all the t's have been crossed and i's dotted.

You are pushing forward your Hindu Vaishnav virews forward. This has nothing to do with Sikhism.

I am not pushing any views forward. I have presented your with my understanding of the translations. I have backed up the translations with references to data from our Sikh Encyclopedias without which your translation would have not have existed. What do you have to hide. Allow me access to your research. Please also do not jump to conclusions.

Be mature with your response. Tackle me with factual information which you should have.

Nonsense.....people like you are on the defnsive....you lack any argument so you perpertrate insult and inuedo to make your point. What a shame, this shows the total desperation you suffer from.

It is sad to see such comments coming from a learned person like you. I will not stoop down to your level again. I did that in the past.

If you do consider your self to be a historian/researcher on sikh philosophy then please behave accordingly and with honour. Present your aguments in a civilised manner.

"Changa nao rakhie ke jas kirat jag le, Je TIS nazar na aavaee ta vaat na pushe ke" I have gone beyond that many lifes ago. I have the blessing of my gurus with me.

Just give me a straight forward answer. Yes or No.
Can you backup your research?
What is the source of your information?
Whose translations are you using and why?
Are the translations your interpretation?

If you are or consider yourself a follower of Guru Granth Sahib.Your reply would be "YES" and you will provide me your research information.
If you are an iimposter only set to gain fame by disgracing the memory of our Gurus. Then your answer will be "No".
Answers in between will mean "Malice" then May god have mercy on you.

Dhan Guru Amar Das ji.

 

[Randip Singh]

Now lets us examine take the following verses from Bhagat Kabir Page 1374 as used in the essay.

Before we proceed futher, let us see how our historical reference books interpret these verses:

FARIDKOT WALA TEKA
Fridkot Wala Teeka is classical exegesis of Sri Guru Granth Sahid in “Brij Bhasha” by a team of scholars of Nirmala Sect. It was the first attempt in this field prompted by tRulers of Fridkot State in 19th Century. For all future attempts in this field, it became an ideal prototype. As it was patronized by the Rulers of Fridkot State, it came to be known as “Frdikot Wala Teeka”

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

Sri Kabir ji kehte hain, Hey bhai kicharee ka khanna khoob hai meaning asha hai, jis kichadee mein amrit ke saman loon padda hua hai.
Kion ke (hera) shikar mein jivon ko mar ke maas ke saath roti khane ke karan se pishey apne ko kon katave - bhav - jeev ko marne karke phir apna sheesh tis se katvana padta hai

In case people do not know who Nirmala's are:


The members of the sect are called Nirmala Sikhs or simply Nirmalas. The sect arose during the time of Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708). Guru wanted his followers not only to train in soldierly arts but also to have interests in letters. He had engaged a number of scholars to translate Sanskrit classics into Punjabi, in order to bring them within the easy reach of people.
Guru Gobind Singh sent five of his Sikhs, namely Karam Singh, Vir Singh, Ganda Singh, Saina Singh, and Ram Singh, dressed as upper-class students, to Varanasi, the centre of Hindu learning. These Sikhs worked diligently for several years and returned to Anandpur as accomplished scholars of classical Indian theology and philosophy. In view of their piety and their sophisticated manner, they and their students came to be known as Nirmalas, and were later recognised as a separate sect.
After the evacuation of Anandpur in 1705, the Nirmala preachers went to different places outside Punjab, particularly to Haridvar, Allahabad and Varanasi, where they established centres of learning that exist even today — Kankhal, near Haridwar; Pakki Sangat at Allahabad; and Chetan Math and Chhoti Sangat at Varanasi. When, during the second half of the eighteenth century, the Sikhs established their sway over the Punjab, some of the Nirmala saints came back here and founded centres at different places.
It was customary for Nirmala scholars to attend, along with their disciples, religious fairs at prominent Hindu pilgrimage centres such as Haridwar, Allahabad and Gaya, where they, like other sadhus, took out shahis or processions and had philosophical debates with scholars of other religious denominations as a part of their preaching activity. During the Haridwar Kumbh in 1855, at a general meeting of the Nirmalas held in their principal dera at Kankhal, the first step was taken towards setting up a central body by electing Mahitab Singh of Rishikesh, reputed scholar of the sect, as their Sri Mahant or principal priest. This tradition is continuing and the present head in Sri Mahant Nam Dev Singh.

This is one view point. In anycase, where and who made this analysis? Date, time's, author's name? In any case I have read criticism's that Nirmala's but too much of a Hindu bias in their works.

Also, this still does not mean one should not eat meat. It merely means one would not cut one's own throat to eat, which takes us back to the point the essay is making. How sects twist this Shabad to mean something does not.

SRI GURU GRANTH DARPAN – by Professor Sahib Singh
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Hey Kabir! (Mullan nu beshak aakh de ke kurbani ke bahane mass khan nallon) kichadee kha leni change hai jis vich sirf suaadla loon paya hoya hove. Main te iss gal lye tyaar nahi han ki maas roti khan dhi niyat meri apni hovey par (Kurbani da hoka de de ke kise pashoo nu) jabar karda phiran
From the later text it appears the Kabir ji has directed his remark towards the Mullans (Religious Muslim leaders) of that time. This is what Kabir ji says in Guru Granth Sahib. This is a universal message for the sikh.
Now let us analyse this verse:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Meaning of words-

• Khoob – plentiful
• Kheechree - food prepared from lentils and rice
• Jaa meh - Jis wich – one that contains - for it is (flavoured)
• Amrit lon - flavour equivalent of Amrit (refering here to the purity and simplicity) lon i.e. only with simple salt.

Kabeer, Eat plentiful of Kheechree , for it is flavored simply with salt.

Again this does not mean that one form of dish is prevalent over another. Taking one sentence out of the shabad destroys the meaning of the shabad. The entire shabad reads from the article:


4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut? (SGGS p1374)
Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.

divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.​

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served “
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.​

​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written: ​

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


​

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

in addition to this the line:
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

The mention of Mullahs here and the fact it is directed at Mullahs shows it is not directed at hunters hunting for meat.

So what is Bhagat Kabir referring too. Clues to this are easy to find when one analyses the time frame when Kabir ji lived. He lived at the time Timur?Tarmalane invaded India. He sacked Delhi killing 100, 000 innocent Hindu's. He also sacked Benares, his is an extract of his memoirs:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/742629/posts
Quote:

Massacre of 100,000 Hindus At this Court Amir Jahan Shah and Amir Sulaiman Shah, and other amirs of experience, brought to my notice that, from the time of entering Hindustan up to the present time, we had taken more than 100,000 infidels and Hindus prisoners, and that they were all in my camp. On the previous day, when the enemy’s forces made the attack upon us, the prisoners made signs of rejoicing, uttered imprecations against us, and were ready, as soon as they heard of the enemy’s success, to form themselves into a body, break their bonds, plunder our tents, and then to go and join the enemy, and so increase his [p. 53] numbers and strength. I asked their advice about the prisoners, and they said that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and foes of Islam at liberty. In fact, no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword. When I heard these words I found them in accord with the rules of war, and I directly gave my command for the Tawachis to proclaim throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners was to put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiru-d din ‘Umar, a counsellor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives.


Now bare the above in mind when reading the shabad.

The Muslim invader and Mullahs, hunted these poor Hindu souls down, to steal their wealth, women and food.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

Meaning of words-
Hayraa – Shikar – hunt ( meaning killing animals – causing death of animals )

This is not the meaning " meaning killing animals – causing death of" is spin added by the source.

Below are many examples of where hunter is used and no mention of meat.

Page 143, Line 4

jamraajai nit nit manmukh hayri-aa.
The King of the Angels of Death hunts down those self-willed manmukhs, over and over again.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 432, Line 14

jam raajay kay hayroo aa-ay maa-i-aa kai sangal banDh la-i-aa. ||5||
The hunters of the King of Death come, and bind him in the chains of Maya. ||5||
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1367, Line 6

laakh ahayree ayk jee-o kaytaa bancha-o kaal. ||53||
Thousands of hunters are chasing after the soul; how long can it escape death? ||53||
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1354, Line 8

marigee paykhant baDhik par-haarayn lakh-y aavDhah.
Seeing the deer, the hunter aims his weapons.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
This last example specifically mentions hunting an animal by name.

• Roti – Bread – Food for eating
• Karnay – For the reason of or for the sake of
• Roti Karney – An activity done for the sake of eating
• Galaa – Throat
• Kataavai – to have it slit – to have it cut.
• Kaun – Who should, Why Should.

Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, Why should I have my throat slit in return.

Sorry, no mention of animal or meat….this is an addition by someone mistranslating.

Putting it together-
Kabir ji Says “I rather eat plentiful of Kheechree for it is flavoured simply with salt.
Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, why should I wait to have my throat slit in return.”

Ok apart from one FACT. No animal or mention of meat. There is no mention of "I"……it it a question "Kaun" or "who"………the question being asked is who would cut their throat just to eat?

Keeping in mind the Invasion of Timur, one ses a completely different picture emerging.

"Hey Mullahs, you do all these fasts and things, yet you commit tyranny…….tell me who would cut your own throat just to hunt for food……..so why are you commiting this tyrrany on others?"

or words to that effect….absolutely and nothing to do with meat eating.

What Kabir ji is telling us in this verse is that when ever you kill an animal ( here although Kabir ji only mentions an animal killed in shikaar – the hunted – by what means it does not matter - you are the cause of the death of that animal), time will come in the future where you will have to take turns i.e. you will have to make the same sacrifice for this animal when it takes human form and you shall take the animal form. Just as this animal has sacrificed itself for your sake (for the pleasure of your tongue ) you should be prepared for pay back. (This philosophy is widely accepted also in hindu scripturers. When ever hindus carry out sacrifices, they confess in those verses that they are accepting full liability that should this animal need our sacrifice in the future, we will be ready to make the sacrifice in retun.

Falls down on several accounts:

1) No mention of animals or meat.

2) Pleasure of the tongue is a silly argument, that would imply meat food tastes the best. The fact is that in India especially, vegetarian food tastes the best.

3) No mention of sacrifice. Sacrifice = Halaal or Bismil according to Bani.

4) We are not Hindu's, so reference to Hindu philosophy is irrelevant. No where does Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji say we should use Hinduism as a template for Sikhi.

5) Sikhism accepts there is an much life in a plant as there is in an animal or mineral, so the same could be applied to a plant.


6) Does not take into account the reference to Mullahs.

7) Breaks shabad up into a few lines:
Here is another example:

Page 1379, Line 7
॥२८॥
jinaa khaaDhee choprhee ghanay sehnigay dukh. ||28||
Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||
Sekh Farid -

Does this mean we avoid bread and butter? Of course not…….but taking one or two lines distorts the shabad. That is what has happened here.

Please present your argument with shabad arth for comartive study so that we can come to a conclusion.

Also please tell me what is the source of your translation ?

Kind Regards

See references of sources in the essay……..

Copies of Bani I think have been taken from www.srigranth.org and also from Pritam Singh Chahil's translation.

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip ji a dead body is a body without life whether it is lying in the street or a slaughter house. It can belong to human or for that matter to an animal. You may not see meat in it but for a hungry animal it is a source of food - it is flesh - it is meat.

I am now getting the impression that you are denying the existance of the word meat. Are you ?

If it makes you happy to refer to me as a "Pandit" then that is fine. A Pandit is a person with knowledge. I will put my argument forward with a backing and you do the same.



I have given you a constructive response and had requested you to respond in a similar way. The information presented is very legible. I have broken it down as much as possible so evry one can understand it. As an authority on this subject please back your statements like a professional would do.

Allow me access to your research data on this topic so that I can satisfy for myself that all the t's have been crossed and i's dotted.



I am not pushing any views forward. I have presented your with my understanding of the translations. I have backed up the translations with references to data from our Sikh Encyclopedias without which your translation would have not have existed. What do you have to hide. Allow me access to your research. Please also do not jump to conclusions.

Be mature with your response. Tackle me with factual information which you should have.



It is sad to see such comments coming from a learned person like you. I will not stoop down to your level again. I did that in the past.

If you do consider your self to be a historian/researcher on sikh philosophy then please behave accordingly and with honour. Present your aguments in a civilised manner.

"Changa nao rakhie ke jas kirat jag le, Je TIS nazar na aavaee ta vaat na pushe ke" I have gone beyond that many lifes ago. I have the blessing of my gurus with me.

Just give me a straight forward answer. Yes or No.
Can you backup your research?
What is the source of your information?
Whose translations are you using and why?
Are the translations your interpretation?

If you are or consider yourself a follower of Guru Granth Sahib.Your reply would be "YES" and you will provide me your research information.
If you are an iimposter only set to gain fame by disgracing the memory of our Gurus. Then your answer will be "No".
Answers in between will mean "Malice" then May god have mercy on you.

Dhan Guru Amar Das ji.

Point 1 - That is not the reply I sent. That was my sarcastic response to the diatribe you posted before.

Point 2- I have posted 3 responses to your points and they have dissapeared I do not know why.

Point 3 - Stop being such a drama queen. You are probably the nastiest person I have ever encountered on these forum's. The fact you are writing more politely is because I reported you to the moderator.

Point 4 - Do not ever try and twist my words, if you do then you will be a mischief maker.

Point 5 - The refrences are in the essay. The fact you cannot read them is not my fault. Everone else seems to read them OK.

Point 6- Stop praying for my soul. I do not wish people like you to pray for my soul, God knows what malice and bad intent there is in your mind.

Point 7 - Reveal your sources. You are talking about other people revealing theirs, then reveal yours. You have reference to so and so said that, but what page, and what books?

Point 8 - read the essay, make your criticisms, I really don't care. I am not going to waste time on a self righteous person like you.

PS

Point 9- I really feel sorry for the fact that you see a dead human being the same as a dead animal. How sad. :shock:

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Point 1 - That is not the reply I sent. That was my sarcastic response to the diatribe you posted before

I had put my weapons down first and requested you to do the same. But you could not help it having a last punch.

Point 2- I have posted 3 responses to your points and they have dissapeared I do not know why.

Now what can I say to that.

Point 3 - Stop being such a drama queen. You are probably the nastiest person I have ever encountered on these forum's. The fact you are writing more politely is because I reported you to the moderator.

I am a polite person. This is the real me. I am a calm and collective person. I respect people for their opinions. Every has an opinion that is based one what they have experienced in life. For them that is the truth. I was also giving my opinion from experience before you caused the chaos.
Did you really report me uuuummmm!

Point 4 - Do not ever try and twist my words, if you do then you will be a mischief maker.

"Jabbi baan lagge , tabbhi ros jaggey". Hurts does it not. Incidently my quote was "I am now getting the impression that you are denying the existance of the word meat. Are you ?". There is not twist here.

Point 5 - The refrences are in the essay. The fact you cannot read them is not my fault. Everone else seems to read them OK.

This shows your level of patience. How much you of a smaritan you are. You appear to be taking revenge here I feel. The war of the words is still going on with you.

Point 6- Stop praying for my soul. I do not wish people like you to pray for my soul, God knows what malice and bad intent there is in your mind.

Only if I could show you the mirror. Consider it your good fortune. Goes to show I have no enmity with you.

Point 7 - Reveal your sources. You are talking about other people revealing theirs, then reveal yours. You have reference to so and so said that, but what page, and what books?

You being a historian and researcher in this field. I did not unnecessarily wanted to embarass you with petty references. You must be well conversant with them all. On the other hand you have written an Essay. It is our right as readers to enquire where this stuff is coming from. Incidently I did mention the names of the Encycloperdias in my interpretations.

Point 8 - read the essay, make your criticisms, I really don't care. I am not going to waste time on a self righteous person like you.

Criticism for the sake of criticism. I do not do that. If I have nothing to say I keep quite and observe. That is my moto.
You have now begun to copy paste my words. Surely you could have used another word from the theusaurus. It also shows how willing you are to help. Your articles are meant to be informative and inspire the Young generation. So that they can take a step forward to shape their future. "I really do not care" explains it all - no comments.

Point 9- I really feel sorry for the fact that you see a dead human being the same as a dead animal. How sad. :shock:

Prepare your self and I will personally drive you to the London Zoo. There you can then lie down in front of a Lion and let it decide. I do not think he is going to turn his face away saying I think I will wait for the Real meat. This is a murdaar. This is Randip Singh. I do not think so. He will enjoy it thoroughly. Go on make some one happy.

As far as your threat of report to the Moderator goes. They are very wise people. You have not been a saint yourself either. I promised to you and to them that I will not be rude and I believe I am keeping my bargain. Let them decide.

Finally, Chotte Veer. Life is too short to quarrel with each other. Let these lines put an end to this unnecessary feud. You too like everyone else have a valuable contribution to make to this forum. Although it is good to have a Devils Advocate but akin to the India Politition "Do not HOG the chair".

My best wishes be with you.

PS. I am still happy to take the Challenge on to do more research on this topic.

 

[kds1980]

KDS 1980,


KDS1980
I understand the text of this shabad. I will come back to this shabad in due course. Thank you very for its introduction.



I accept I have used the word "Manmat" but let us not go astray from the main topic. I have agreed with Randip Singh to refrain from the use of these words. I hope you too will respect that.

"People like you" - Please do not jump to conclusions on my character. You may feel comfortable with a blind fold and follow the mainstream but I do not want to.

As a sikh, I would like you also to come forth with an open mind and make a fruitful contribution. At the end of the day it may turn out that I am wrong. I will gladly accept that. At least it will not be on my conscience. I can rest in peace. But if I am proven right then............just imagine how many potential souls will be helped.

Short of the Gurus or interference by some devine authority coming down to resolve this matter this issue probably cannot not be resolved. People are set in their ways. My belief is that Sikhism is based on logic. Take any verse in SGGS and you will find a logic behind its existance. So I request you and all other members to join forces and with the blessings of our Gurus we will come to know the righteous path and avoid possible mis-interpretations in the future.

You may have come across many cases where the Courts of the law have come to wrong conclusions and sentenced the individual and after many years it is realised that the decision made at the time was wrong and the case re-opens. We are living in Kalyug under its rules. It is bound to put a blindfold over our eyes. Evil/negative thoughts shall only flourishes under its regime.

I accept your sentiments with regards to Akal Takhat, the final authority in making decisions for the Sikh Panth. Those people up there are still ordinary human beings. There is a lot of politics going on there. A Lot goes on behind the scenes that does not get to the likes of you and me.

My conscience does not accept this line of thought. And yes all those scholars can be wrong. In order to come to a conclusion we have to start somewhere. And yes I start with the assumtion that those scholars are wrong or mistaken. I do not wish to be sheep among the herd. If you can make a useful contribution to this subject then I would very much appreciate your assistance. Otherwise please watch this space.

ekmusafir ji

first of all i am really sorry to say word people like you.i am too here want constructive debate

from past 1.5 years i have participated in many debates including many on meat issue.i ahve mostly read all the arguement from veggie camp,and non veg camp.honestly speaking mostly it is vegetarians that are misinterprettting gurbani ,changing history.there are many evidences in sikh history that puratan sikhs ate meat which very strict in following guru's order.
they would have preferred to die rather than disobeying guru's order.there are many evidences that preffered death rather than cutting hair but there is no evidence that puratean sikhs prefered death over not eating meat.even if you look at some of the families which are strictly following sikhi from generations also eat meat.so it is quite clear that diet was not an issue
in sikhism.on internet i have found this obsession of vegetarianism mainly in sikhs living in western countries

now coming bcak on guru granth sahi.guru granth sahib is written in mystical metaphorical poetry with many examples of that time.it is better to understand the whole meaning of shabad rather than picking single line to to prove our point.
if we all start picking single lines then we will find too many contradictions in sggs.

Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

in the above shabad dogs eating rotten carcasses in just an example.obviously whenever an animal eat a carcass
people just don't like it .i think thats why this example is used.nowhere the shabad is dealing with whether someone should
eat meat or not

similarly the shalok of kabir ji is mainly dealing with issue of hypocracy of mullahs and not whether meat eating is right or wrong

on the other hand if we analyse shabad maas maas kar moorakh jhagrey that shabad is totally dedicated to this issue
so it is quite clear that diet was not an issue in sikhism.if our guru's really wanted to promote vegetarianism they then they
had clearly added shabads which directly says not to eat meat and shabad maas maas kar moorakkh jhagrey had not been in guru granth sahib.

even if we look at environment then it is clear that human always eat what is available in their environment.the people
living in coastal areas eating seafood from centuries because it is the only thing that is available in their environment
so it too indicate that our guru's were quite practical on this issue.

 

[Randip Singh]

In case people do not know who Nirmala's are:


The members of the sect are called Nirmala Sikhs or simply Nirmalas. The sect arose during the time of Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708). Guru wanted his followers not only to train in soldierly arts but also to have interests in letters. He had engaged a number of scholars to translate Sanskrit classics into Punjabi, in order to bring them within the easy reach of people.
Guru Gobind Singh sent five of his Sikhs, namely Karam Singh, Vir Singh, Ganda Singh, Saina Singh, and Ram Singh, dressed as upper-class students, to Varanasi, the centre of Hindu learning. These Sikhs worked diligently for several years and returned to Anandpur as accomplished scholars of classical Indian theology and philosophy. In view of their piety and their sophisticated manner, they and their students came to be known as Nirmalas, and were later recognised as a separate sect.
After the evacuation of Anandpur in 1705, the Nirmala preachers went to different places outside Punjab, particularly to Haridvar, Allahabad and Varanasi, where they established centres of learning that exist even today — Kankhal, near Haridwar; Pakki Sangat at Allahabad; and Chetan Math and Chhoti Sangat at Varanasi. When, during the second half of the eighteenth century, the Sikhs established their sway over the Punjab, some of the Nirmala saints came back here and founded centres at different places.
It was customary for Nirmala scholars to attend, along with their disciples, religious fairs at prominent Hindu pilgrimage centres such as Haridwar, Allahabad and Gaya, where they, like other sadhus, took out shahis or processions and had philosophical debates with scholars of other religious denominations as a part of their preaching activity. During the Haridwar Kumbh in 1855, at a general meeting of the Nirmalas held in their principal dera at Kankhal, the first step was taken towards setting up a central body by electing Mahitab Singh of Rishikesh, reputed scholar of the sect, as their Sri Mahant or principal priest. This tradition is continuing and the present head in Sri Mahant Nam Dev Singh.

This is one view point. In anycase, where and who made this analysis? Date, time's, author's name? In any case I have read criticism's that Nirmala's but too much of a Hindu bias in their works.

Also, this still does not mean one should not eat meat. It merely means one would not cut one's own throat to eat, which takes us back to the point the essay is making. How sects twist this Shabad to mean something does not.





Again this does not mean that one form of dish is prevalent over another. Taking one sentence out of the shabad destroys the meaning of the shabad. The entire shabad reads from the article:


4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut? (SGGS p1374)
Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.
divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.​

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served “
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written: ​

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

​

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

in addition to this the line:
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

The mention of Mullahs here and the fact it is directed at Mullahs shows it is not directed at hunters hunting for meat.

So what is Bhagat Kabir referring too. Clues to this are easy to find when one analyses the time frame when Kabir ji lived. He lived at the time Timur?Tarmalane invaded India. He sacked Delhi killing 100, 000 innocent Hindu's. He also sacked Benares, his is an extract of his memoirs:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/742629/posts
Quote:

Massacre of 100,000 Hindus At this Court Amir Jahan Shah and Amir Sulaiman Shah, and other amirs of experience, brought to my notice that, from the time of entering Hindustan up to the present time, we had taken more than 100,000 infidels and Hindus prisoners, and that they were all in my camp. On the previous day, when the enemy’s forces made the attack upon us, the prisoners made signs of rejoicing, uttered imprecations against us, and were ready, as soon as they heard of the enemy’s success, to form themselves into a body, break their bonds, plunder our tents, and then to go and join the enemy, and so increase his [p. 53] numbers and strength. I asked their advice about the prisoners, and they said that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and foes of Islam at liberty. In fact, no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword. When I heard these words I found them in accord with the rules of war, and I directly gave my command for the Tawachis to proclaim throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners was to put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiru-d din ‘Umar, a counsellor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives.


Now bare the above in mind when reading the shabad.

The Muslim invader and Mullahs, hunted these poor Hindu souls down, to steal their wealth, women and food.





This is not the meaning " meaning killing animals – causing death of" is spin added by the source.

Below are many examples of where hunter is used and no mention of meat.

Page 143, Line 4

jamraajai nit nit manmukh hayri-aa.
The King of the Angels of Death hunts down those self-willed manmukhs, over and over again.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 432, Line 14

jam raajay kay hayroo aa-ay maa-i-aa kai sangal banDh la-i-aa. ||5||
The hunters of the King of Death come, and bind him in the chains of Maya. ||5||
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1367, Line 6

laakh ahayree ayk jee-o kaytaa bancha-o kaal. ||53||
Thousands of hunters are chasing after the soul; how long can it escape death? ||53||
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1354, Line 8

marigee paykhant baDhik par-haarayn lakh-y aavDhah.
Seeing the deer, the hunter aims his weapons.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
This last example specifically mentions hunting an animal by name.


[/i][/b]

Sorry, no mention of animal or meat….this is an addition by someone mistranslating.


[/i][/b]

Ok apart from one FACT. No animal or mention of meat. There is no mention of "I"……it it a question "Kaun" or "who"………the question being asked is who would cut their throat just to eat?

Keeping in mind the Invasion of Timur, one ses a completely different picture emerging.

"Hey Mullahs, you do all these fasts and things, yet you commit tyranny…….tell me who would cut your own throat just to hunt for food……..so why are you commiting this tyrrany on others?"

or words to that effect….absolutely and nothing to do with meat eating.


[/i][/b]

Falls down on several accounts:

1) No mention of animals or meat.

2) Pleasure of the tongue is a silly argument, that would imply vegetarian food tastes the best. The fact is that in India especially, vegetarian food tastes the best.

3) No mention of sacrifice. Sacrifice = Halaal or Bismil according to Bani.

4) We are not Hindu's, so reference to Hindu philosophy is irrelevant. No where does Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji say we should use Hinduism as a template for Sikhi.

5) Sikhism accepts there is an much life in a plant as there is in an animal or mineral, so the same could be applied to a plant.


6) Does not take into account the reference to Mullahs.
7) Breaks shabad up into a few lines:
Here is another example:

Page 1379, Line 7
॥२८॥
jinaa khaaDhee choprhee ghanay sehnigay dukh. ||28||
Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||
Sekh Farid -

Does this mean we avoid bread and butter? Of course not…….but taking one or two lines distorts the shabad. That is what has happened here.

[/i]

See references of sources in the essay……..

Copies of Bani I think have been taken from www.srigranth.org and also from Pritam Singh Chahil's translation.

I see one of my posts has appeared....now I wonder where the other is?

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

KDS 1980,

Sikhi is a vast Ocean. It has the ability and space to absorb people from all walks of life.The teachings of the Gurus should not be just taken as words of a text. It is their soul, their life experiences for the benefits of us mortals so that we can follow it. It shows us a path to salvation. Unless you reach that stage of maturity of thinking you will not fully understand the word of our Gurus.

People enter sikhi from all walks of life. The four doors to Shri Hari Mandir Sahib (Our Gurus did not call it The Golden Temple) is a proof of it. It is also a proof of what the amateurs of sikh faith are capable of doing – they have put Gold on it and almost renamed it “The Golden Temple”. They name by which the whole world now knows it. If our Gurus wanted to do that then they themselves would have done it. This is only to highlight the attitudes of a vast majority of the Sikhs.

Coming back to the topic, Some one has translated this text as follows:

Salok mehlaa 1.
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.


Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

Our Sikh literature translates Murdaaras follows:.

Ref: Encyclopedia of Sikh Literature - Mahankosh - Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha
defines Murdaar as follows:

Loth – Shav – Dead body
Svastkar te Soorveerta rehat - ……….and without bravery?
Pran rehet deh - Body without life
Apwitter cheez – Impure item
Dharam anusaar na khane yogya – Not worthy of eating according to Dharmic values
Haraam – Forbidden, Famous
Vaddi – Money not earned by honest means

As you see there are several meanings to this word. The most appropriate in this text is “Dead body”. Now relate the dead body to the dog. How does a dog see this dead body. For the dog it is food and nothing else. By eating it he will satisfy its hunger. Now you can give a name to whatever he is eating. You can say that he is eating intestines, muscles, nerves. The argument is Mr Randip Singh refuses to accept that it is meat.

The meaning of Murdaar being rotting carcasees. I have not found any references to it. The following are two of the translatory book that are available on the net. Feel free to research for yourselves. In addition to that the translator has missed out the word Khaaj – meaning favourite from his summation. If we exclude words from translations then we will end up with inappropriate answers. Unless the original translator intended this In the first place.

You can solve a question in two ways:

• By starting from the beginning and coming to an answer. Or
• Deciding on the answer you want and then massaging the figures to fit the question.

Just as we are ready to pick holes in Gurbani – Our Gurus text( Which we should be ashamed of – due to lack of our understanding -especially when they are not physically present here to answer), I was only trying to do the same to the text of Randip Singh.

Just as I am giving you my explanation he should have done the same.

My translation of the tukh is in line with the Encyclopedias of Sikh Literature. And I checked that afterwards. Please look at them youself.

FARIDKOT WALA TEKA (Now translated into English but not available on the net)
Fridkot Wala Teeka is classical exegesis of Sri Guru Granth Sahid in “Brij Bhasha” by a team of scholars of Nirmala Sect. It was the first attempt in this field prompted by tRulers of Fridkot State in 19th Century. For all future attempts in this field, it became an ideal prototype. As it was patronized by the Rulers of Fridkot State, it came to be known as “Frdikot Wala Teeka”
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

SRI GURU GRANTH DARPAN – by Professor Sahib Singh

In the light of Randip Singhs essay, are we now to accept that these volumes is wrong?

Yes the Shalok of Kabir ji is dealing with issue of hypocracy of mullahs. You are absolutely right. But What kabir ji is saying there, Is it untrue and that it has no value in Sikhism and should just treat it as a passing comment. Why did our Gurus include it in SGGS. If it is there then there is message in it for us. This is the feeling and experience of “Kabir ji”. It is his statement.

“Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrey” This shabad is again (In my opinion) being miscommunicated. Let me hypothesize here how this shabad may have come about.

Say for an example, The both of us were arguing over the topic of meat in the congregation at the times of our Guru’s. We had all gathered to listen to Guru ji and we were paying less attention to what Guru ji were telling us and more intresting on our argument. Naturally, this argument would have escalated. In order to diffuse this issue, I would have expected Guru ji to intervene and say those very words.

Guru ji came here to deliver a message for humanity, give us naam, to show how we can escape from the clutches of Nature in this dark time period of Kalyug.

My grievence with Randip Singh was that I had made a statement that if you are following the path of “Enlightenment – Mukti” then one should refrain from eating meat as it becomes a hurdle in your path. And I also said that it is my personal experience and that our Gurus did not eat meat either.

Each of us are at a different level of spirituality. Some at the beginning and some intermediate and some very advanced. We should not compare everybody with ones own yard stick. Just because you cannot understand it, it does not mean that it is untrue. When one grows spiritually, you will automatically get the answers.

KDS1980. You make your own decisions come to your own conclusions. Develop your own awareness. Do your own research instead of being a sheep among the herd. At first I was fooled and started following the thought of Randip Singh. But I could not swallow his arguments and began to research. This is my conclusion and my opinion.

Now you can make yours.

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip Singh ji



FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH

Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

Ok lets take a look at what the essay says:

5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)
Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1.​

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.​

Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
​

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.
The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

I don't think anything contentious has been said here. Pritam Singh Chahil's translation I think refers to Muder as Carrion.

Rotting Carcasse – This is not the meaning of Murdaar.

You are incorrect -


ਅੰਧੀ ਰਯਤਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ਭਾਹਿ ਭਰੇ ਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ ॥
अंधी रयति गिआन विहूणी भाहि भरे मुरदारु ॥
anDhee rayat gi-aan vihoonee bhaahi bharay murdaar.
Their subjects are blind, and without wisdom, they try to please the will of the dead.

again refers to the dead. They may also be refered to as carrion.

Furthermore a very crucial word has been omitted from the interpretation.
“khaaj” – meaning favourite

It makes no difference to the meaning of the ang.

In anycase (I may be wrong) I though Khaaj was something uneatable or forbidden?

Let us see what Murdaar means:

Ref: Encyclopedia of Sikh Literature - Mahankosh - Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha
defines Murdaar as follows:

Loth – Shav – Dead body
Svastkar te Soorveerta rehat - ……….and without bravery?
Pran rehet deh - Body without life
Apwitter cheez – Impure item
Dharam anusaar na khane yogya – Not worthy of eating according to Dharmic values
Haraam – Forbidden, Famous
Vaddi – Money not earned by honest means

There are many more……………

Shalok
ਸਲੋਕਮ੧॥ਕਲਿਹੋਈਕੁਤੇਮੁਹੀਖਾਜੁਹੋਆਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ॥ਕੂੜੁਬੋਲਿਬੋਲਿਭਉਕਣਾਚੂਕਾਧਰਮੁਬੀਚਾਰੁ॥ਜਿਨਜੀਵੰਦਿਆਪਤਿਨਹੀਮੁਇਆਮੰਦੀਸੋਇ॥ਲਿਖਿਆਹੋਵੈਨਾਨਕਾਕਰਤਾਕਰੇਸੁਹੋਇ॥੧॥{ਪੰਨਾ 1242}

Meanings of words used:
Kal – Kalyug , Kutay muhee – faces like dogs , Murdaar – Dead bodies, Khaj – favourite Koorh – lies, Chooka – finished, passed away, Patt – respect, Soa – honour, Mandee soa – evil reputation, Likhaa hove – predestined,

Now let us put this the translations together as per the Shalok

Shalok, First Mehl:
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; their favourite food is a dead body
(I ask you. What is the favourite food of a dog?.
Is it not by dead body – meaning flesh- meaning MEAT)

Not at all. If people are behaving like dogs as this shabad states then their favourite past time is to eat dead bodies...........just like how some people behave when they want grab the rights of another person.

A clear metaphor.

In Bani....look how many times the metaphor for dogs is used:


Page 21, Line 11
ਕੂਕਰ ਕੂੜੁ ਕਮਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਚੈ ਪਚਾਨੁ ॥
कूकर कूड़ु कमाईऐ गुर निंदा पचै पचानु ॥
kookar koorh kamaa-ee-ai gur nindaa pachai pachaan.
Those who practice falsehood are dogs; those who slander the Guru shall burn in their own fire.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 24, Line 13
ਏਕੁ ਸੁਆਨੁ ਦੁਇ ਸੁਆਨੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
एकु सुआनु दुइ सुआनी नालि ॥
ayk su-aan du-ay su-aanee naal.
The dogs of greed are with me.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 332, Line 11
ਪਿਤਰ ਭੀ ਬਪੁਰੇ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਕਊਆ ਕੂਕਰ ਖਾਹੀ ॥੧॥
पितर भी बपुरे कहु किउ पावहि कऊआ कूकर खाही ॥१॥
pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee. ||1||
Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? ||1||
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 350, Line 3
ਕਰਣੀ ਕੁਤਾ ਦਰਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਨੁ ॥
करणी कुता दरि फुरमानु ॥
karnee kutaa dar furmaan.
by their deeds they are dogs - this is the Command of the Lord's Court.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 360, Line 14
ਰਤਨ ਵਿਗਾੜਿ ਵਿਗੋਏ ਕੁਤਂ​*ੀ ਮੁਇਆ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਕਾਈ ॥
रतन विगाड़ि विगोए कुतीं मुइआ सार न काई ॥
ratan vigaarh vigo-ay kuteeN mu-i-aa saar na kaa-ee.
This priceless country has been laid waste and defiled by dogs, and no one pays any attention to the dead.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 372, Line 15
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਹਲਕਾਏ ॥
अंतरि लोभु फिरहि हलकाए ॥
antar lobh fireh halkaa-ay.
Within them is greed, and they wander around like mad dogs.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 493, Line 8
ਸੇ ਕੂਕਰ ਸੂਕਰ ਗਰਧਭ ਪਵਹਿ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨੀ ਦਯਿ ਮਾਰੇ ਮਹਾ ਹਤਿਆਰੇ ॥੩॥
से कूकर सूकर गरधभ पवहि गरभ जोनी दयि मारे महा हतिआरे ॥३॥
say kookar sookar garDhabh paveh garabh jonee da-yi maaray mahaa hati-aaray. ||3||
They are like dogs, pigs and jackasses; they are cast into the womb of reincarnation, and the Lord strikes them down as the worst of murderers. ||3||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 609, Line 11
ਤੀਨਿ ਸੰਙਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਕੀਨੀ ਜਲ ਕੂਕਰ ਭਸਮੇਹੀ ॥
तीनि संङिआ करि देही कीनी जल कूकर भसमेही ॥
teen sanyi-aa kar dayhee keenee jal kookar bhasmayhee.
There are three ways in which the body can be consumed - it can be thrown into water, given to the dogs, or cremated to ashes.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 648, Line 12
ਇਕ ਦਝਹਿ ਇਕ ਦਬੀਅਹਿ ਇਕਨਾ ਕੁਤੇ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
इक दझहि इक दबीअहि इकना कुते खाहि ॥
ik dajheh ik dabee-ah iknaa kutay khaahi.
Some are cremated, and some are buried; some are eaten by dogs.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 692, Line 14
ਸੂਕਰ ਕੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਭ੍ਰਮੇ ਤਊ ਲਾਜ ਨ ਆਈ ॥
सूकर कूकर जोनि भ्रमे तऊ लाज न आई ॥
sookar kookar jon bharamay ta-oo laaj na aa-ee.
You have wandered in reincarnation, as pigs and dogs - did you feel no shame?
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 795, Line 7
ਏਤੇ ਕੂਕਰ ਹਉ ਬੇਗਾਨਾ ਭਉਕਾ ਇਸੁ ਤਨ ਤਾਈ ॥
एते कूकर हउ बेगाना भउका इसु तन ताई ॥
aytay kookar ha-o baygaanaa bha-ukaa is tan taa-ee.
Among so many dogs, I am an outcast; I bark for my body's belly.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 983, Line 17
ਲੋਭ ਲਹਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਸੁਆਨੁ ਹਲਕੁ ਹੈ ਹਲਕਿਓ ਸਭਹਿ ਬਿਗਾਰੇ ॥
लोभ लहरि सभु सुआनु हलकु है हलकिओ सभहि बिगारे ॥
lobh lahar sabh su-aan halak hai halki-o sabheh bigaaray.
The waves of greed are like mad dogs with rabies. Their madness ruins everything.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1029, Line 17
ਕੂਕਰ ਸੂਕਰ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੂੜਿਆਰਾ ॥
कूकर सूकर कहीअहि कूड़िआरा ॥
kookar sookar kahee-ahi koorhi-aaraa.
The false are called pigs and dogs.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1124, Line 16
ਸੁਆਨ ਸਤ੍ਰੁ ਅਜਾਤੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਲਾਵੈ ਹੇਤੁ ॥
सुआन सत्रु अजातु सभ ते क्रिस्न लावै हेतु ॥
su-aan satar ajaat sabh tay krisan laavai hayt.
The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by Krishna.
Devotee Ravidas - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1160, Line 16
ਸੁਆਨ ਸਿਆਲ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
सुआन सिआल माइआ महि राता ॥
su-aan si-aal maa-i-aa meh raataa.
Dogs and jackals are imbued with Maya.
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1242, Line 18
ਕਲਿ ਹੋਈ ਕੁਤੇ ਮੁਹੀ ਖਾਜੁ ਹੋਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ ॥
कलि होई कुते मुही खाजु होआ मुरदारु ॥
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1288, Line 7
ਰਾਜੇ ਸੀਹ ਮੁਕਦਮ ਕੁਤੇ ॥
राजे सीह मुकदम कुते ॥
raajay seeh mukdam kutay.
The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs;
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1288, Line 8
ਰਤੁ ਪਿਤੁ ਕੁਤਿਹੋ ਚਟਿ ਜਾਹੁ ॥
रतु पितु कुतिहो चटि जाहु ॥
rat pit kutiho chat jaahu.
The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1311, Line 17
ਲੋਭ ਲਹਰਿ ਸੁਆਨ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਰੰਗਿ ਲਗਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੭॥
लोभ लहरि सुआन की संगति बिखु माइआ करंगि लगावैगो ॥७॥
lobh lahar su-aan kee sangat bikh maa-i-aa karang lagaavaigo. ||7||
The waves of greed are like packs of dogs. The poison of Maya sticks to the body-skeleton. ||7||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1359, Line 8
ਉਦਿਆਨ ਬਸਨੰ ਸੰਸਾਰੰ ਸਨਬੰਧੀ ਸ੍ਵਾਨ ਸਿਆਲ ਖਰਹ ॥
उदिआन बसनं संसारं सनबंधी स्वान सिआल खरह ॥
udi-aan basanaN saNsaaraN sanbanDhee savaan si-aal kharah.
Living in the world, it is like a wild jungle. One's relatives are like dogs, jackals and donkeys.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1413, Line 9
ਮਨਮੁਖ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਚਲਾਈਅਹਿ ਨਾ ਮਿਲਹੀ ਵਗਿ ਸਗਿ ॥
मनमुख बंन्हि चलाईअहि ना मिलही वगि सगि ॥
manmukh baneh chalaa-ee-ah naa milhee vag sag.
The self-willed manmukhs are bound and gagged and led away; the dogs do not join the herd of cows.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

They bark repeatedly and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

These lines confirm that Guruji is talking about the deceitful behaviour of people and has nothing to do with meat eating.

As noted above, there are several meanings of the word Murdaar. The authour is concentrating on one Word only and taking one meaning only. We ought to look at it in the right context.

Point 1 - I edited this essay, some are my contributions. It is the collection of works by several Gursikhs, vegetarian and non-vegetarian. All have elected to stay nameless. Some portions have been borrowed from Sradar Sandeep Singh's The Sikhism Home Page.

Point 2 - The essay is pointing out that to view this verse merely as a comment on eating behaviour is akin to some sort of Sharia Law. Bani is higher than that.

Point 3 - It clearly an concisely points out the metaphor behind this shabad because it says "people like" etc.

Sources - Pritam Singh Chahil (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji). Dr Kulbir Thind

Regards

 

[Randip Singh]

People enter sikhi from all walks of life. The four doors to Shri Hari Mandir Sahib (Our Gurus did not call it The Golden Temple) is a proof of it. It is also a proof of what the amateurs of sikh faith are capable of doing – they have put Gold on it and almost renamed it “The Golden Temple”. They name by which the whole world now knows it. If our Gurus wanted to do that then they themselves would have done it. This is only to highlight the attitudes of a vast majority of the Sikhs.

Well I thought your extensive "research " would have recognised the fact that there was no Gold on Harmandir Sahib during the time of the Guru's.

My grievence with Randip Singh was that I had made a statement that if you are following the path of “Enlightenment – Mukti” then one should refrain from eating meat as it becomes a hurdle in your path. And I also said that it is my personal experience and that our Gurus did not eat meat either.

That is your opinion. Why are you forcing your opinion on everyone else? What we are saying is eating meat and not eating meat has nothing to do with Bani.

How do you know that the Guru's did not eat meat. Show me proof? Were your there? Do you know exactly what they ate? What relevance is that of anyway, the Guru's were of such a heightened spiritual state it would not matter in anycase.

Each of us are at a different level of spirituality. Some at the beginning and some intermediate and some very advanced. We should not compare everybody with ones own yard stick. Just because you cannot understand it, it does not mean that it is untrue. When one grows spiritually, you will automatically get the answers.

Precisely….so why again are you claiming to know the mysteries of spirituality?

KDS1980. You make your own decisions come to your own conclusions. Develop your own awareness. Do your own research instead of being a sheep among the herd. At first I was fooled and started following the thought of Randip Singh. But I could not swallow his arguments and began to research. This is my conclusion and my opinion.

Nobody is asking you to swallow anything and if you read the posts above I have demonstrated clearly how I disagree from your "research".

Please cut out the weasel words, you are doing it again. Describing people who don't follow the Ekh Musafir line are not "fools" or "sheep".

One thing I would agree is do unbiased research, and not one based on a Sant-Mat premise.

Regards.

PS For some unknown reason my replies either keep getting held in a queue or apearing much later......I have reposted:

Randip Singh ji


FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH

Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

Ok lets take a look at what the essay says:

5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)
Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1.

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.
Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji ​

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.
The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

I don't think anything contentious has been said here. Pritam Singh Chahil's translation I think refers to Muder as Carrion.

Rotting Carcasse – This is not the meaning of Murdaar.

You are incorrect -

ਅੰਧੀਰਯਤਿਗਿਆਨਵਿਹੂਣੀਭਾਹਿਭਰੇਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ॥
अंधीरयतिगिआनविहूणीभाहिभरेमुरदारु॥
anDhee rayat gi-aan vihoonee bhaahi bharay murdaar.
Their subjects are blind, and without wisdom, they try to please the will of the dead.

again refers to the dead. They may also be refered to as carrion.

Furthermore a very crucial word has been omitted from the interpretation.
“khaaj” – meaning favourite

It makes no difference to the meaning of the ang.
In anycase (I may be wrong) I though Khaaj was something uneatable or forbidden?

Let us see what Murdaar means:

Ref: Encyclopedia of Sikh Literature - Mahankosh - Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha
defines Murdaar as follows:

Loth – Shav – Dead body
Svastkar te Soorveerta rehat - ……….and without bravery?
Pran rehet deh - Body without life
Apwitter cheez – Impure item
Dharam anusaar na khane yogya – Not worthy of eating according to Dharmic values
Haraam – Forbidden, Famous
Vaddi – Money not earned by honest means

There are many more……………

Shalok
ਸਲੋਕਮ੧॥ਕਲਿਹੋਈਕੁਤੇਮੁਹੀਖਾਜੁਹੋਆਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ॥ਕੂੜੁਬੋਲਿਬੋਲਿਭਉਕਣਾਚੂਕਾਧਰਮੁਬੀਚਾਰੁ॥ਜਿਨਜੀਵੰਦਿਆਪਤਿਨਹੀਮੁਇਆਮੰਦੀਸੋਇ॥ਲਿਖਿਆਹੋਵੈਨਾਨਕਾਕਰਤਾਕਰੇਸੁਹੋਇ॥੧॥{ਪੰਨਾ 1242}

Meanings of words used:
Kal – Kalyug , Kutay muhee – faces like dogs , Murdaar – Dead bodies, Khaj – favourite Koorh – lies, Chooka – finished, passed away, Patt – respect, Soa – honour, Mandee soa – evil reputation, Likhaa hove – predestined,

Now let us put this the translations together as per the Shalok

Shalok, First Mehl:
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; their favourite food is a dead body
(I ask you. What is the favourite food of a dog?.
Is it not by dead body – meaning flesh- meaning MEAT)

Not at all. Ifpeople are behaving like dogs as this shabad states then their favourite past time is to eat dead bodies...........just like how some people behave when they want grab the rights of another person.
A clear metaphor.
In Bani....look how many times the metaphor for dogs is used:

Page 21, Line 11
ਕੂਕਰਕੂੜੁਕਮਾਈਐਗੁਰਨਿੰਦਾਪਚੈਪਚਾਨੁ॥
कूकरकूड़ुकमाईऐगुरनिंदापचैपचानु॥
kookar koorh kamaa-ee-ai gur nindaa pachai pachaan.
Those who practice falsehood are dogs; those who slander the Guru shall burn in their own fire.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 24, Line 13
ਏਕੁਸੁਆਨੁਦੁਇਸੁਆਨੀਨਾਲਿ॥
एकुसुआनुदुइसुआनीनालि॥
ayk su-aan du-ay su-aanee naal.
The dogs of greed are with me.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 332, Line 11
ਪਿਤਰਭੀਬਪੁਰੇਕਹੁਕਿਉਪਾਵਹਿਕਊਆਕੂਕਰਖਾਹੀ॥੧॥
पितरभीबपुरेकहुकिउपावहिकऊआकूकरखाही॥१॥
pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee. ||1||
Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? ||1||
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 350, Line 3
ਕਰਣੀਕੁਤਾਦਰਿਫੁਰਮਾਨੁ॥
करणीकुतादरिफुरमानु॥
karnee kutaa dar furmaan.
by their deeds they are dogs - this is the Command of the Lord's Court.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 360, Line 14
ਰਤਨਵਿਗਾੜਿਵਿਗੋਏਕੁਤਂ​*ੀਮੁਇਆਸਾਰਨਕਾਈ॥
रतनविगाड़िविगोएकुतींमुइआसारनकाई॥
ratan vigaarh vigo-ay kuteeN mu-i-aa saar na kaa-ee.
This priceless country has been laid waste and defiled by dogs, and no one pays any attention to the dead.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 372, Line 15
ਅੰਤਰਿਲੋਭੁਫਿਰਹਿਹਲਕਾਏ॥
अंतरिलोभुफिरहिहलकाए॥
antar lobh fireh halkaa-ay.
Within them is greed, and they wander around like mad dogs.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 493, Line 8
ਸੇਕੂਕਰਸੂਕਰਗਰਧਭਪਵਹਿਗਰਭਜੋਨੀਦਯਿਮਾਰੇਮਹਾਹਤਿਆਰੇ॥੩॥
सेकूकरसूकरगरधभपवहिगरभजोनीदयिमारेमहाहतिआरे॥३॥
say kookar sookar garDhabh paveh garabh jonee da-yi maaray mahaa hati-aaray. ||3||
They are like dogs, pigs and jackasses; they are cast into the womb of reincarnation, and the Lord strikes them down as the worst of murderers. ||3||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 609, Line 11
ਤੀਨਿਸੰਙਿਆਕਰਿਦੇਹੀਕੀਨੀਜਲਕੂਕਰਭਸਮੇਹੀ॥
तीनिसंङिआकरिदेहीकीनीजलकूकरभसमेही॥
teen sanyi-aa kar dayhee keenee jal kookar bhasmayhee.
There are three ways in which the body can be consumed - it can be thrown into water, given to the dogs, or cremated to ashes.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 648, Line 12
ਇਕਦਝਹਿਇਕਦਬੀਅਹਿਇਕਨਾਕੁਤੇਖਾਹਿ॥
इकदझहिइकदबीअहिइकनाकुतेखाहि॥
ik dajheh ik dabee-ah iknaa kutay khaahi.
Some are cremated, and some are buried; some are eaten by dogs.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 692, Line 14
ਸੂਕਰਕੂਕਰਜੋਨਿਭ੍ਰਮੇਤਊਲਾਜਨਆਈ॥
सूकरकूकरजोनिभ्रमेतऊलाजनआई॥
sookar kookar jon bharamay ta-oo laaj na aa-ee.
You have wandered in reincarnation, as pigs and dogs - did you feel no shame?
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 795, Line 7
ਏਤੇਕੂਕਰਹਉਬੇਗਾਨਾਭਉਕਾਇਸੁਤਨਤਾਈ॥
एतेकूकरहउबेगानाभउकाइसुतनताई॥
aytay kookar ha-o baygaanaa bha-ukaa is tan taa-ee.
Among so many dogs, I am an outcast; I bark for my body's belly.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 983, Line 17
ਲੋਭਲਹਰਿਸਭੁਸੁਆਨੁਹਲਕੁਹੈਹਲਕਿਓਸਭਹਿਬਿਗਾਰੇ॥
लोभलहरिसभुसुआनुहलकुहैहलकिओसभहिबिगारे॥
lobh lahar sabh su-aan halak hai halki-o sabheh bigaaray.
The waves of greed are like mad dogs with rabies. Their madness ruins everything.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1029, Line 17
ਕੂਕਰਸੂਕਰਕਹੀਅਹਿਕੂੜਿਆਰਾ॥
कूकरसूकरकहीअहिकूड़िआरा॥
kookar sookar kahee-ahi koorhi-aaraa.
The false are called pigs and dogs.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1124, Line 16
ਸੁਆਨਸਤ੍ਰੁਅਜਾਤੁਸਭਤੇਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਲਾਵੈਹੇਤੁ॥
सुआनसत्रुअजातुसभतेक्रिस्नलावैहेतु॥
su-aan satar ajaat sabh tay krisan laavai hayt.
The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by Krishna.
Devotee Ravidas - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1160, Line 16
ਸੁਆਨਸਿਆਲਮਾਇਆਮਹਿਰਾਤਾ॥
सुआनसिआलमाइआमहिराता॥
su-aan si-aal maa-i-aa meh raataa.
Dogs and jackals are imbued with Maya.
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1242, Line 18
ਕਲਿਹੋਈਕੁਤੇਮੁਹੀਖਾਜੁਹੋਆਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ॥
कलिहोईकुतेमुहीखाजुहोआमुरदारु॥
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1288, Line 7
ਰਾਜੇਸੀਹਮੁਕਦਮਕੁਤੇ॥
राजेसीहमुकदमकुते॥
raajay seeh mukdam kutay.
The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs;
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1288, Line 8
ਰਤੁਪਿਤੁਕੁਤਿਹੋਚਟਿਜਾਹੁ॥
रतुपितुकुतिहोचटिजाहु॥
rat pit kutiho chat jaahu.
The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1311, Line 17
ਲੋਭਲਹਰਿਸੁਆਨਕੀਸੰਗਤਿਬਿਖੁਮਾਇਆਕਰੰਗਿਲਗਾਵੈਗੋ॥੭॥
लोभलहरिसुआनकीसंगतिबिखुमाइआकरंगिलगावैगो॥७॥
lobh lahar su-aan kee sangat bikh maa-i-aa karang lagaavaigo. ||7||
The waves of greed are like packs of dogs. The poison of Maya sticks to the body-skeleton. ||7||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1359, Line 8
ਉਦਿਆਨਬਸਨੰਸੰਸਾਰੰਸਨਬੰਧੀਸ੍ਵਾਨਸਿਆਲਖਰਹ॥
उदिआनबसनंसंसारंसनबंधीस्वानसिआलखरह॥
udi-aan basanaN saNsaaraN sanbanDhee savaan si-aal kharah.
Living in the world, it is like a wild jungle. One's relatives are like dogs, jackals and donkeys.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 1413, Line 9
ਮਨਮੁਖਬੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਚਲਾਈਅਹਿਨਾਮਿਲਹੀਵਗਿਸਗਿ॥
मनमुखबंन्हिचलाईअहिनामिलहीवगिसगि॥
manmukh baneh chalaa-ee-ah naa milhee vag sag.
The self-willed manmukhs are bound and gagged and led away; the dogs do not join the herd of cows.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

They bark repeatedly and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

These lines confirm that Guruji is talking about the deceitful behaviour of people and has nothing to do with meat eating.

As noted above, there are several meanings of the word Murdaar. The authour is concentrating on one Word only and taking one meaning only. We ought to look at it in the right context.

Point 1 - I edited this essay, some are my contributions. It is the collection of works by several Gursikhs, vegetarian and non-vegetarian. All have elected to stay nameless. Some portions have been borrowed from Sradar Sandeep Singh's The Sikhism Home Page.

Point 2 - The essay is pointing out that to view this verse merely as a comment on eating behaviour is akin to some sort of Sharia Law. Bani is higher than that.

Point 3 - It clearly an concisely points out the metaphor behind this shabad because it says "people like" etc.

Sources - Pritam Singh Chahil (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji). Dr Kulbir Thind

Now lets us examine take the following verses from Bhagat Kabir Page 1374 as used in the essay.

Before we proceed futher, let us see how our historical reference books interpret these verses:

FARIDKOT WALA TEKA
Fridkot Wala Teeka is classical exegesis of Sri Guru Granth Sahid in “Brij Bhasha” by a team of scholars of Nirmala Sect. It was the first attempt in this field prompted by tRulers of Fridkot State in 19th Century. For all future attempts in this field, it became an ideal prototype. As it was patronized by the Rulers of Fridkot State, it came to be known as “Frdikot Wala Teeka”

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

Sri Kabir ji kehte hain, Hey bhai kicharee ka khanna khoob hai meaning asha hai, jis kichadee mein amrit ke saman loon padda hua hai.
Kion ke (hera) shikar mein jivon ko mar ke maas ke saath roti khane ke karan se pishey apne ko kon katave - bhav - jeev ko marne karke phir apna sheesh tis se katvana padta hai

In case people do not know who Nirmala's are:


The members of the sect are called Nirmala Sikhs or simply Nirmalas. The sect arose during the time of Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708). Guru wanted his followers not only to train in soldierly arts but also to have interests in letters. He had engaged a number of scholars to translate Sanskrit classics into Punjabi, in order to bring them within the easy reach of people.
Guru Gobind Singh sent five of his Sikhs, namely Karam Singh, Vir Singh, Ganda Singh, Saina Singh, and Ram Singh, dressed as upper-class students, to Varanasi, the centre of Hindu learning. These Sikhs worked diligently for several years and returned to Anandpur as accomplished scholars of classical Indian theology and philosophy. In view of their piety and their sophisticated manner, they and their students came to be known as Nirmalas, and were later recognised as a separate sect.
After the evacuation of Anandpur in 1705, the Nirmala preachers went to different places outside Punjab, particularly to Haridvar, Allahabad and Varanasi, where they established centres of learning that exist even today — Kankhal, near Haridwar; Pakki Sangat at Allahabad; and Chetan Math and Chhoti Sangat at Varanasi. When, during the second half of the eighteenth century, the Sikhs established their sway over the Punjab, some of the Nirmala saints came back here and founded centres at different places.
It was customary for Nirmala scholars to attend, along with their disciples, religious fairs at prominent Hindu pilgrimage centres such as Haridwar, Allahabad and Gaya, where they, like other sadhus, took out shahis or processions and had philosophical debates with scholars of other religious denominations as a part of their preaching activity. During the Haridwar Kumbh in 1855, at a general meeting of the Nirmalas held in their principal dera at Kankhal, the first step was taken towards setting up a central body by electing Mahitab Singh of Rishikesh, reputed scholar of the sect, as their Sri Mahant or principal priest. This tradition is continuing and the present head in Sri Mahant Nam Dev Singh.

This is one view point. In anycase, where and who made this analysis? Date, time's, author's name? In any case I have read criticism's that Nirmala's but too much of a Hindu bias in their works.

Also, this still does not mean one should not eat meat. It merely means one would not cut one's own throat to eat, which takes us back to the point the essay is making. How sects twist this Shabad to mean something does not.

SRI GURU GRANTH DARPAN – by Professor Sahib Singh
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Hey Kabir! (Mullan nu beshak aakh de ke kurbani ke bahane mass khan nallon) kichadee kha leni change hai jis vich sirf suaadla loon paya hoya hove. Main te iss gal lye tyaar nahi han ki maas roti khan dhi niyat meri apni hovey par (Kurbani da hoka de de ke kise pashoo nu) jabar karda phiran
From the later text it appears the Kabir ji has directed his remark towards the Mullans (Religious Muslim leaders) of that time. This is what Kabir ji says in Guru Granth Sahib. This is a universal message for the sikh.
Now let us analyse this verse:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Meaning of words-

• Khoob – plentiful
• Kheechree - food prepared from lentils and rice
• Jaa meh - Jis wich – one that contains - for it is (flavoured)
• Amrit lon - flavour equivalent of Amrit (refering here to the purity and simplicity) lon i.e. only with simple salt.

Kabeer, Eat plentiful of Kheechree , for it is flavored simply with salt.

Again this does not mean that one form of dish is prevalent over another. Taking one sentence out of the shabad destroys the meaning of the shabad. The entire shabad reads from the article:

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut? (SGGS p1374)
Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.​

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.​

divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.

kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.

gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.​

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served “
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.​

​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written: ​

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji




​

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

in addition to this the line:
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

The mention of Mullahs here and the fact it is directed at Mullahs shows it is not directed at hunters hunting for meat.

So what is Bhagat Kabir referring too. Clues to this are easy to find when one analyses the time frame when Kabir ji lived. He lived at the time Timur?Tarmalane invaded India. He sacked Delhi killing 100, 000 innocent Hindu's. He also sacked Benares, his is an extract of his memoirs:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/742629/posts
Quote:

Massacre of 100,000 Hindus At this Court Amir Jahan Shah and Amir Sulaiman Shah, and other amirs of experience, brought to my notice that, from the time of entering Hindustan up to the present time, we had taken more than 100,000 infidels and Hindus prisoners, and that they were all in my camp. On the previous day, when the enemy’s forces made the attack upon us, the prisoners made signs of rejoicing, uttered imprecations against us, and were ready, as soon as they heard of the enemy’s success, to form themselves into a body, break their bonds, plunder our tents, and then to go and join the enemy, and so increase his [p. 53] numbers and strength. I asked their advice about the prisoners, and they said that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and foes of Islam at liberty. In fact, no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword. When I heard these words I found them in accord with the rules of war, and I directly gave my command for the Tawachis to proclaim throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners was to put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiru-d din ‘Umar, a counsellor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives.


Now bare the above in mind when reading the shabad.

The Muslim invader and Mullahs, hunted these poor Hindu souls down, to steal their wealth, women and food.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

Meaning of words-
Hayraa – Shikar – hunt ( meaning killing animals – causing death of animals )

This is not the meaning " meaning killing animals – causing death of" is spin added by the source.

Below are many examples of where hunter is used and no mention of meat.

Page 143, Line 4

jamraajai nit nit manmukh hayri-aa.
The King of the Angels of Death hunts down those self-willed manmukhs, over and over again.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 432, Line 14

jam raajay kay hayroo aa-ay maa-i-aa kai sangal banDh la-i-aa. ||5||
The hunters of the King of Death come, and bind him in the chains of Maya. ||5||
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1367, Line 6

laakh ahayree ayk jee-o kaytaa bancha-o kaal. ||53||
Thousands of hunters are chasing after the soul; how long can it escape death? ||53||
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1354, Line 8

marigee paykhant baDhik par-haarayn lakh-y aavDhah.
Seeing the deer, the hunter aims his weapons.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
This last example specifically mentions hunting an animal by name.

• Roti – Bread – Food for eating
• Karnay – For the reason of or for the sake of
• Roti Karney – An activity done for the sake of eating
• Galaa – Throat
• Kataavai – to have it slit – to have it cut.
• Kaun – Who should, Why Should.

Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, Why should I have my throat slit in return.

Sorry, no mention of animal or meat….this is an addition by someone mistranslating.

Putting it together-
Kabir ji Says “I rather eat plentiful of Kheechree for it is flavoured simply with salt.
Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, why should I wait to have my throat slit in return.”

Ok apart from one FACT. No animal or mention of meat. There is no mention of "I"……it it a question "Kaun" or "who"………the question being asked is who would cut their throat just to eat?

Keeping in mind the Invasion of Timur, one ses a completely different picture emerging.

"Hey Mullahs, you do all these fasts and things, yet you commit tyranny…….tell me who would cut your own throat just to hunt for food……..so why are you commiting this tyrrany on others?"

or words to that effect….absolutely and nothing to do with meat eating.

What Kabir ji is telling us in this verse is that when ever you kill an animal ( here although Kabir ji only mentions an animal killed in shikaar – the hunted – by what means it does not matter - you are the cause of the death of that animal), time will come in the future where you will have to take turns i.e. you will have to make the same sacrifice for this animal when it takes human form and you shall take the animal form. Just as this animal has sacrificed itself for your sake (for the pleasure of your tongue ) you should be prepared for pay back. (This philosophy is widely accepted also in hindu scripturers. When ever hindus carry out sacrifices, they confess in those verses that they are accepting full liability that should this animal need our sacrifice in the future, we will be ready to make the sacrifice in retun.

Falls down on several accounts:

1) No mention of animals or meat.

2) Pleasure of the tongue is a silly argument, that would imply meat food tastes the best. The fact is that in India especially, vegetarian food tastes the best.

3) No mention of sacrifice. Sacrifice = Halaal or Bismil according to Bani.

4) We are not Hindu's, so reference to Hindu philosophy is irrelevant. No where does Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji say we should use Hinduism as a template for Sikhi.

5) Sikhism accepts there is an much life in a plant as there is in an animal or mineral, so the same could be applied to a plant.


6) Does not take into account the reference to Mullahs.

7) Breaks shabad up into a few lines:
Here is another example:

Page 1379, Line 7
॥२८॥
jinaa khaaDhee choprhee ghanay sehnigay dukh. ||28||
Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||
Sekh Farid -

Does this mean we avoid bread and butter? Of course not…….but taking one or two lines distorts the shabad. That is what has happened here.

Please present your argument with shabad arth for comartive study so that we can come to a conclusion.

Also please tell me what is the source of your translation ?

Kind Regards

See references of sources in the essay……..

Copies of Bani I think have been taken from Pritam Singh Chahil's translation.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

This is a reply to the blog of KDS 1980. It is not directed towards you. I do not have anthing more to say to you on this topic.

I do not need to explain to you or anyone else, the height of my spirituality. I do not want to dwell any further on this topic. We do not see eye to eye on this issue.

So plz let it go to rest.

 

[Randip Singh]

This is a reply to the blog of KDS 1980. It is not directed towards you. I do not have anthing more to say to you on this topic.

I do not need to explain to you or anyone else, the height of my spirituality. I do not want to dwell any further on this topic. We do not see eye to eye on this issue.

So plz let it go to rest.

You have directly refered to me and made comments to the effect that I am some sort of deciever or liar, am I not entitled to answer? or should I just lie down and take what you stated as gospel?

In anycase, I have answered your "research" above.

Your premise is that to be a Sikh you must be vegetarian, in order to reach hightened spirituality.

My premise is Sikhism does not make comments on diet one way or the other. On a personal level I am convinced spirituality has nothing to do with meat eating or vegetarianism.

If we take your premise then figures such as (let us put the Guru's to one side no one knows what they ate) Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses did not reach higher levels of spirituality. Simply is not true.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

You are not prepared to put things to rest.

Your premise is that to be a Sikh you must be vegetarian, in order to reach hightened spirituality.

This is my experience and yes I am at that level and under the guidance of Guru Amar Das ji. My old friend and Guru. I am suffering with several skin problems because i began to enjoy meat in my last life whilst following spirituality. This is my last life. I have been blessed with the ultimate death.

I do not expect you to understand. But remember now that you have told. Do not MOCK me. Read Sukhmani Sahib ji to see what can be the consequences of your actions.

When you or if you ever reach this level you will understand and experience it. I am not going to answer any more questions now. Now that I have exposed my self. Thanks to you. I will not be making any further contributions to this forum.

Be wise. Trust Gurus Message. Those who dis-believe in the Gurus message faces the curse of birth and re-birth. Do not ever make accusations about Our Gurus. It will be your worst misfortune. Do not mis-interpret Gurbani to satisfy your egos and points of views. It is the fruit of your past karmas that you have been warned.

Good bye to you and this Forum.

"Mera muj mein kuj nahi, jo kush hai so Tera"
Dhan Guru Amaradas ji.

 

[Randip Singh]

You are not prepared to put things to rest.


This is my experience and yes I am at that level and under the guidance of Guru Amar Das ji. My old friend and Guru. I am suffering with several skin problems because i began to enjoy meat in my last life whilst following spirituality. This is my last life. I have been blessed with the ultimate death.

Sorry to hear to have a skin problem.

Maybe you have some sort of allergy to meat, or one of the Amino Acids found in meat.

I still cannot understand what this has to do with spirtuality.

What do you mean by old friend "Guru Amar Das ji"?......you have lost me?

Also what makes you think people on this forum are not at that level?

I do not expect you to understand. But remember now that you have told. Do not MOCK me. Read Sukhmani Sahib ji to see what can be the consequences of your actions.

I am not mocking you, but you have my sympathies about your condition of your skin....but this does not mean this skin condition is the same for everyone?

When you or if you ever reach this level you will understand and experience it. I am not going to answer any more questions now. Now that I have exposed my self. Thanks to you. I will not be making any further contributions to this forum.

Don't assume friend that people on this forum are not at a higher spritual level....I have spoken to some of the wisest souls here....Gyani Arshi, KDS, Dr Khalsa, Aman etc etc........the list goes on....each one I have learned from......

Believe it or not I have even learned something from you.........

Be wise. Trust Gurus Message. Those who dis-believe in the Gurus message faces the curse of birth and re-birth. Do not ever make accusations about Our Gurus. It will be your worst misfortune. Do not mis-interpret Gurbani to satisfy your egos and points of views. It is the fruit of your past karmas that you have been warned.

No one is mocking the Guru's, no one is misinterpreting Bani and I think everyone here belives the Guru's message.

So thanks for the warning....and good bye!!:wink:

 

[kaur-1]

You are not prepared to put things to rest.


This is my experience and yes I am at that level and under the guidance of Guru Amar Das ji. My old friend and Guru. I am suffering with several skin problems because i began to enjoy meat in my last life whilst following spirituality. This is my last life. I have been blessed with the ultimate death.

I do not expect you to understand. But remember now that you have told. Do not MOCK me. Read Sukhmani Sahib ji to see what can be the consequences of your actions.

When you or if you ever reach this level you will understand and experience it. I am not going to answer any more questions now. Now that I have exposed my self. Thanks to you. I will not be making any further contributions to this forum.

Be wise. Trust Gurus Message. Those who dis-believe in the Gurus message faces the curse of birth and re-birth. Do not ever make accusations about Our Gurus. It will be your worst misfortune. Do not mis-interpret Gurbani to satisfy your egos and points of views. It is the fruit of your past karmas that you have been warned.

Good bye to you and this Forum.

"Mera muj mein kuj nahi, jo kush hai so Tera"
Dhan Guru Amaradas ji.

Waheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguroo Ji Ki Fateh

Its a shame that you are thinking of leaving this forum. May I suggest leaving this topic rather then the forum.


Subject such as this divide communities and I dont think Sir Guru Nanak Dev ji wanted this to happen. As the title state's "Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh". Well then, lets not argue over this issue anymore.

 

[Lionchild]

Waheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguroo Ji Ki Fateh

Its a shame that you are thinking of leaving this forum. May I suggest leaving this topic rather then the forum.


Subject such as this divide communities and I dont think Sir Guru Nanak Dev ji wanted this to happen. As the title state's "Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh". Well then, lets not argue over this issue anymore.