Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[sikh78910]

dear sikh78910

if killing animals is such a wrong thing then why guru hargobind ji and guru gobind singh ji went on hunting along with the sikhs.guru gobind singh ji kept falcon and it is a deadly bird to whom feeding meat is must so it is quite clear that meat was not tabboo to them.let me show you first sermon of guru hargobind ji in which he ordered sikhs to go on hunting
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phorum - message board
Then, Guru Hargobind Sahib rose and gave his first sermon to the Sikhs:

“Today the offerings that are beloved to me are good weapons and good youth. If you want my happiness, then exercise your bodies, wrestle, play gatka, go into the jungles to hunt and learn to ride horses. Weakness is now a crime to the Nation that cannot be forgiven for anyone.
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hi kds ji,

i understand where u are coming from, but where does it have guru Hargobind ji saying to eat the slaughtered animals? hunting, gatka, wrestling and working out help to mould a warrior proficient at fighting in warfare. hunting increases alertness, awareness and develops a good eye for detail. practice in hunting for these sikhs may have dertermined life and death for a sikh on the battlefield in these times. it was not to EAT the meat or the guru would not have included hunting in the same paragraph as the words gatka, riding horses, excercise and wrestling which are all associated with Battle! it is also a known fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji also went hunting as an act of compassion towards animals, relasing them from this stage of reincarnation. it does not again, say to eat them!!! the reasons for taking the life of one of gods creatures should be a valid one, as in an accident or like this one or hunting to improve vital and life saving battle skills. to me it is about compassion, to kill an animal without mercy and with a sadistic nature or just to feed on its flesh just doesnt seem right to me! that is my opinion!

Sikh

 

[Lionchild]

hi kds ji,

i understand where u are coming from, but where does it have guru Hargobind ji saying to eat the slaughtered animals? hunting, gatka, wrestling and working out help to mould a warrior proficient at fighting in warfare. hunting increases alertness, awareness and develops a good eye for detail. practice in hunting for these sikhs may have dertermined life and death for a sikh on the battlefield in these times. it was not to EAT the meat or the guru would not have included hunting in the same paragraph as the words gatka, riding horses, excercise and wrestling which are all associated with Battle! it is also a known fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji also went hunting as an act of compassion towards animals, relasing them from this stage of reincarnation. it does not again, say to eat them!!! the reasons for taking the life of one of gods creatures should be a valid one, as in an accident or like this one or hunting to improve vital and life saving battle skills. to me it is about compassion, to kill an animal without mercy and with a sadistic nature or just to feed on its flesh just doesnt seem right to me! that is my opinion!

Sikh

That totally does not make any sense. So you are saying that killing an animal for sport or to "practise" is any better?

in my culture, we hunted the animal, and used all of it's parts to make food, cloths, tools, and live on. That is the good way to do things. That was all we had in norther alberta, of course, it's different today. We have all this man made processed food, probably why we have such a high rate of diebeties and malutrition.

Anyways, sikh78910 if really think that it's so unethical, perhaps next time you drink coffee, or eat your veggies, you will think that there are animals and even people who die to get that food too you. I would imagine all the forest land, and road kill from trucks is not "compassion"

 

[kds1980]

hi kds ji,

i understand where u are coming from, but where does it have guru Hargobind ji saying to eat the slaughtered animals? hunting, gatka, wrestling and working out help to mould a warrior proficient at fighting in warfare. hunting increases alertness, awareness and develops a good eye for detail. practice in hunting for these sikhs may have dertermined life and death for a sikh on the battlefield in these times. it was not to EAT the meat or the guru would not have included hunting in the same paragraph as the words gatka, riding horses, excercise and wrestling which are all associated with Battle! it is also a known fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji also went hunting as an act of compassion towards animals, relasing them from this stage of reincarnation. it does not again, say to eat them!!! the reasons for taking the life of one of gods creatures should be a valid one, as in an accident or like this one or hunting to improve vital and life saving battle skills. to me it is about compassion, to kill an animal without mercy and with a sadistic nature or just to feed on its flesh just doesnt seem right to me! that is my opinion!

Sikh

dear sikh ji

i agree with you that hunting was a war practice for sikhs.but do you want to say that there is nothing wrong in killing animals for war practice?
as far mukti arguemrent is concerned i don't beleive in it because nowhere guru ji mentioned that he is killing animals for mukti.even if i accept mukti
arguement then what about the sikhs that were hunting along with the guru ji
were they also giving mukti to animals?anway i have a mini suraj prakash in which there are sakhis where meat is mentioned so if anybody want to say that vegetarianism is part of sikhism then that is false there some sakhis where meat is mentioned.even european travellers mentioned that meat was part of sikh diet.
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The Seiks receive Proselytes of almost every Cast, a point in which they differ most materially from the Hindoos. To initiate Mohammedans into their mysteries, they prepare a Dish of Hogs legs, which the Converts are obliged to partake of, previous to admission............They are not prohibited the use of Animal food of any kind, excepting Beef, which they are rigidly scrupulous in abstaining from.
John Griffiths writes in February 17th 1794



The seiks are remarkably fond of the flesh of the jungle hog, which they kill in chase: this food is allowable by their law. They likewise eat of mutton and fish; but these being unlawful the Brahmins will not partake, leaving those who chose to transgress their institutes to answer for themselves.
William Francklin in his writing about Mr George Thomas 1805


It is clear from the above that there is a clear distinction between Sikhs (meat eaters), and those who chose to follow Brahmanical practices (Vegetarians), however there appears to be no dispute over this issue as people are allowed to decide for themselves.
The following is an Extract from an officer in the Bengal Army and is taken from the Asiatic Annual Register 1809:

Now become a Singh, he is a heterodox, and distinct from the Hindoos by whom he is considered an apostate. He is not restricted in his diet, but is allowed, by the tenets of his new religion, to devour whatever food his appetite may prompt, excepting beef.
Asiatic Annual Register 1809
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in the end i just want to say that if your conscience does not tell you to eat meat then don't eat.but please don't give it religious turn.

 

[sikh78910]

That totally does not make any sense. So you are saying that killing an animal for sport or to "practise" is any better?

NO thats not what im saying. read my post again plz. im sayin if ur fighting for the good of mankind and u need practice like guru gobind singh jis warriors did, THEN its ok! thats wat im sayinn, and it most certainly does make sense. only if ur fighting for the good of mankind and not evil. if the gurus said it was ok to kill animals to beconme a better warrior, and like i said if it meant the differemnce between life and death on the battle field for the gurus warriors, which it almost certainly did , then im completely ok. if u dont think it is and would rather have had a moghul victory in our history then disagree with me!

in my culture, we hunted the animal, and used all of it's parts to make food, cloths, tools, and live on. That is the good way to do things. That was all we had in norther alberta, of course, it's different today. We have all this man made processed food, probably why we have such a high rate of diebeties and malutrition.

tools for livelihood n clothes are a necessity, even instruments for kirtan, but food? i think, and this is a wild guess, that there mayyyyyyyyyyy just be other sources of food other than animals!??? if there is no other then of course i condone the killing of meat for food for survival!

Anyways, sikh78910 if really think that it's so unethical, perhaps next time you drink coffee, or eat your veggies, you will think that there are animals and even people who die to get that food too you. I would imagine all the forest land, and road kill from trucks is not "compassion"

yup i do all the time and feel very sad when i think of this. i do intend to campaign agaist this kinda stuff cuz i dont agree with it at alllllll!!! farming in punjab is the only right way to get "ethica"l veggie food in my book, but unfortunately i dont live there so i gotta put up with this kinda ****!! as for roadkill, theyre accidental, just like trucks and cars kill humans, roadkill is almost always accidental and when its not, which i have never heard of a case when it wasnt, its pretty messed up aswell.

i agree with you that hunting was a war practice for sikhs.but do you want to say that there is nothing wrong in killing animals for war practice?

yup, if its for the good and savior of mankind cos the intention is pure. just like moguls were killed for the good and defence of mankind.

.even if i accept mukti
arguement then what about the sikhs that were hunting along with the guru ji
were they also giving mukti to animals?

perhaps, if their intention was pure then why not? or perhaps they were training for battle? lol.

Seiks

ok this dude cant even spell the word sikhs......hmmm...

Mohammedans into their mysteries, they prepare a Dish of Hogs legs, which the Converts are obliged to partake of, previous to admission............

so what? this is just a test of faith, not a pleasurable macdonalds big mac experience.......

The seiks are remarkably fond of the flesh of the jungle hog, which they kill in chase: this food is allowable by their law. They likewise eat of mutton and fish; but these being unlawful the Brahmins will not partake, leaving those who chose to transgress their institutes to answer for themselves.

did our gurus do this> and even if they did, i aint saying its against sikhi, im saying its wrong spiritually n pples conciousnces shuld tell them so.

William Francklin in his writing about Mr George Thomas 1805

is this dude sikh or is this just a made up quote by muslims or the british who have committed so many atrocities to sikhs over history , have stolen from sikh libraries, and therefore have absoluetely no reason to undermine sikhi in any way possbile! lol this makes me laugh. if the hindus could bomb amritsar and change our history and alter or even conjure the dassam granth, then the british who also killed thousands upon thousands of our sikhs and committed jalianwalla bagh, waheguru ji, are capable of EXACTLY the same. why should i trust ANYTHING said to have been written by them? and even if this is a real account, so what, times have changed, we are in a deeper state of kaljug and evil will enter us using any means possible......................

 

[sikh78910]

oh and by the way i still think a spiritual sikh eating meat is a bad idea, unless like i said before hes already at a high stage and is bodybuilding and training.......- these two things together.

 

[Randip Singh]

oh and by the way i still think a spiritual sikh eating meat is a bad idea, unless like i said before hes already at a high stage and is bodybuilding and training.......- these two things together.

If you think this then you are dwelling in duality.

In Sikhism does not perscribe a diet............it is left to the individual to make a choice.

 

[Randip Singh]

oh and im sure guru gobind singh ji would never have killed his horse or eagle that was always by his side. he seemed to have great affection for them, even named his horse Dilbag. One of his sikhs went to great lengths to get Dilbag back for the guru and this sikh was rewarded with a state of chardi kala. what is the difference between these animals and any other? u liken meat to vegetables but dont liken meat with other meat ie.

I have plants around the house which I nurture and grow. I would never dream of eating them. Some even have names. Same principle with animals here…..sometimes we get an affinity to things and to give them a more human appearance……….however they will never be human.

As for naming things we do so, so we can differentiate from others. Can you imagine the entire Sikh cavalry with a horses all called horse….utter confusion. Horses and their riders often develop a bond because the rider chooses a horse because it has certain attributes….swiftness…can carry heavy loads etc. Each owner knows its horses characteristics.

the Dilbag, the bird and a cow or pig? would u eat ur faithful pet dog if it was common place to eat dogs? my dog is like family to me, its so intellegent, sits at command, jumps at command and has kind and loving eyes when it sees me. i once had a pet chicken and i had the same feelings towards it, it follwed me around everywhere! i just dunno about this whole meat eating thing, i just personally dont agree with it n dont think i ever will. has anyone else got these same feelings or is it just me??

That’s the point….thats your personal feeling………….and that is what the entire point of the essay is. It is a personal choice.

The bean (Rajma) releases a toxin to prevent us eating it….yet we soak it (ineffect drowning it), to remove this beans natural defence mechanism………it has a right not to be eaten surely?

i really havent read into the whole hindu aspect of things so get thrown when ppl say i have a brammin outlook on this issue, like i say in all other threads of this nature, its my concience and gut feelling, along with other very unbrahmin reasons which most narrow minded people would never accept so i wont post them......

The brahmin and Hindu dimension to this entered in around the 19th century….mass conversion of Hindu's to Sikhism.

This issue had raised itself during the time of Bandha Bahadhur when Sikhs split over this………..Bandha - a Bairagi advocated vegetarianism…………….he started taking Sikhism down an Alien route from what the 10th Master advocated………………he banned use of Onion etc too. A compromise was reached with Bandahi Sikh's being amalgamated into mainstream Sikhism. This issue was laid to rest……….until the 19th Century when Sant Mat groups influenced by Hindu converts resurrected it.

 

[Randip Singh]

is this dude sikh or is this just a made up quote by muslims or the british who have committed so many atrocities to sikhs over history , have stolen from sikh libraries, and therefore have absoluetely no reason to undermine sikhi in any way possbile! lol this makes me laugh. if the hindus could bomb amritsar and change our history and alter or even conjure the dassam granth, then the british who also killed thousands upon thousands of our sikhs and committed jalianwalla bagh, waheguru ji, are capable of EXACTLY the same. why should i trust ANYTHING said to have been written by them? and even if this is a real account, so what, times have changed, we are in a deeper state of kaljug and evil will enter us using any means possible......................

There are a number of eyewitness accounts from European travellers as to t the eating habits of Sikhs. Although there is no prohibition on Sikhs for eating beef, it is clear that Sikhs as a mark of respect for their Hindu neighbours did not partake in eating beef:​

The Seiks receive Proselytes of almost every Cast, a point in which they differ most materially from the Hindoos. To initiate Mohammedans into their mysteries, they prepare a Dish of Hogs legs, which the Converts are obliged to partake of, previous to admission………………..They are not prohibited the use of Animal food of any kind, excepting Beef, which they are rigidly scrupulous in abstaining from.
John Griffiths writes in February 17th 1794​

The seiks are remarkably fond of the flesh of the jungle hog, which they kill in chase: this food is allowable by their law. They likewise eat of mutton and fish; but these being unlawful the Brahmins will not partake, leaving those who chose to transgress their institutes to answer for themselves.
William Francklin in his writing about Mr George Thomas 1805​

It is clear from the above that there is a clear distinction between Sikhs (meat eaters), and those who chose to follow Brahmanical practices (Vegetarians), however there appears to be no dispute over this issue as people are allowed to decide for themselves.
The following is an Extract from an officer in the Bengal Army and is taken from the Asiatic Annual Register 1809:​

Now become a Singh, he is a heterodox, and distinct from the Hindoos by whom he is considered an apostate. He is not restricted in his diet, but is allowed, by the tenets of his new religion, to devour whatever food his appetite may prompt, excepting beef.
Asiatic Annual Register 1809​

Clearly, this gives us an idea that even independent observers of Sikhs who saw their eating habits. These Sikhs were around some 100 years after the demise of the last physical Sikh Guru and represented hardcore Sikh philosophy at that time

From my years at University many years ago, I remeber that one had to rely on evidence when putting forward a point.

These eyewitness accounts are by observers who were infact tryig to gain an understanding into the Sikh faith and culture, with a view to one day subduing them.

So these reports would have been as accurate as possible.......to not do so would have compromised any inroads the Brits wished to make........so this pretty much contradicts what you are saying.

I've said this before and I'll say it again....read more Sikh History and Bani together, you will get some answers.

 

[Randip Singh]

tools for livelihood n clothes are a necessity, even instruments for kirtan, but food? i think, and this is a wild guess, that there mayyyyyyyyyyy just be other sources of food other than animals!??? if there is no other then of course i condone the killing of meat for food for survival!

How do you reconcile this fact that people like this cannot achieve spiritual salvation?

So you are saying people who eat meat can achieve spiritual salvation?

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

"IT IS FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH TO FEED THEIR ANIMAL INSTINCTS"

This out to be the conclusion of this discussions.

Our Gurus never had to contend with this issue so strongly because either the question did not arise or they did not feel it was important enough at that time, for the spread of Sikh Faith. People joined the Sikh Religion from different backgrounds with different eating habits. It would have given a wrong message. I presume if this issue had been emphasized in the times of our Gurus, it would have deterred muslims or other meat eating communities from joining. Today the number of Sikhs in the world would have been far less or this faith would have collapsed like many others before it.

It is futile to keep arguing whether Sikhism allows eating meat or not. If the word “Meat” is not mentioned directly in Guru Granth Sahib then that does not mean that it is permitted.

Let us not split words here/lets us not probe into “Gurus Angs” here to justify our means. It should be concluded here that if your conscience allows you to eat meat then choice is yours and conversely if it does not then don’t. Why drag Guru Granth Sahib ji into this argument. There are other more pressing issue that need attention. If you consider yourself to be a Sikh then pray to the Gurus to give you the guidance. A wise person only needs a hint. How much of this message is received/absorbed by an individual, that is dependent on the mental and spiritual state of that person and his devotion to the Gurus. It is gross “MANMAT” trying to justify the need to satisfy ones “EGO”.

Only the our Gurus know the true meanings of Gurbani. We can only still interpret it. Just because some individual has learned a few meanings that he keeps emphasising and arguingabout, that does not make him an authority.

Let the Guru’s be the judges.

 

[Randip Singh]

​

"IT IS FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH TO FEED THEIR ANIMAL INSTINCTS"
This out to be the conclusion of this discussions.

This is your conclusion…..fair enough!!
However,
The only Animal Instinct displayed here is by those who wish to impose their will on others.

​

Our Gurus never had to contend with this issue so strongly because either the question did not arise or they did not feel it was important enough at that time, for the spread of Sikh Faith. People joined the Sikh Religion from different backgrounds with different eating habits. It would have given a wrong message. I presume if this issue had been emphasized in the times of our Gurus, it would have deterred muslims or other meat eating communities from joining. Today the number of Sikhs in the world would have been far less or this faith would have collapsed like many others before it.​

​

​

It was never an issue during the times of the Guru's and is not an issue now. Guru's did not bother about eating habits then, and they shouldn't matter now. The reason why they didn't bother with it was because it has nothing to do with spirituality.

​

It is futile to keep arguing whether Sikhism allows eating meat or not. If the word "Meat" is not mentioned directly in Guru Granth Sahib then that does not mean that it is permitted.​

​

​

The Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not mention any diet whatsoever, but there are those who presume that Bani is a cheap menu that’s sole purpose is to recommend one diet over another. The work of Surinder Singh posted by you is an example of this. It is unacceptable because it not only dismembers Angs of Bani but mistranslates words.

​

Let us not split words here/lets us not probe into "Gurus Angs" here to justify our means.​

​

​

Ironic since your very essay by Surinder Singh splits shabads in order to promote a vegetarian diet. It makes Bani look like a cheap restaurant menu.

​

It should be concluded here that if your conscience allows you to eat meat then choice is yours and conversely if it does not then don’t.​

​

​

Agreed. Eating meat or not eating meat is a personal choice, it has nothing to do with Sikhism.

​

Why drag Guru Granth Sahib ji into this argument.​

​

​

Again Ironic because you has done exactly that by posting your essay by Surinder Singh.

This essay was an attempt by Vegetarian and Meat eating Sikhs to show how Bani is being twisted by quoting single lines rather than whole shabads.


​

There are other more pressing issue that need attention. If you consider yourself to be a Sikh then pray to the Gurus to give you the guidance. A wise person only needs a hint. How much of this message is received/absorbed by an individual, that is dependent on the mental and spiritual state of that person and his devotion to the Gurus. It is gross "MANMAT" trying to justify the need to satisfy ones "EGO".​

​

​

Again, precisely the point of the essay. Vegetarians and some Meat eaters have been committing Manmat to justify their particular diet by using Bani to back it up. This essay proves that Bani has nothing to do with that.

​

Only the our Gurus know the true meanings of Gurbani. We can only still interpret it. Just because some individual has learned a few meanings that he keeps emphasising and arguingabout, that does not make him an authority.
Let the Guru’s be the judges.​

​

​

Well the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru, and our remit as learners or Sikh's in to try and interpret and understand that Bani………….not to twist it because we have a Vegetarian or Meat eating agenda!!​

 

[sikh78910]

How do you reconcile this fact that people like this cannot achieve spiritual salvation?

So you are saying people who eat meat can achieve spiritual salvation?

probably, but it would prob take hundreds of year cos their body aint cleansed, so they may aswell be drinkin alcohol aswell.

In Sikhism does not perscribe a diet............it is left to the individual to make a choice.

yup and its only the INTELLIGENT individuals who realise that u can literally get no where spiritually if u eat meat! lol, just like i could not when i was eatin it!

There are a number of eyewitness accounts from European travellers as to t the eating habits of Sikhs. Although there is no prohibition on Sikhs for eating beef, it is clear that Sikhs as a mark of respect for their Hindu neighbours did not partake in eating beef:​

The Seiks receive Proselytes of almost every Cast, a point in which they differ most materially from the Hindoos. To initiate Mohammedans into their mysteries, they prepare a Dish of Hogs legs, which the Converts are obliged to partake of, previous to admission………………..They are not prohibited the use of Animal food of any kind, excepting Beef, which they are rigidly scrupulous in abstaining from.
John Griffiths writes in February 17th 1794​

The seiks are remarkably fond of the flesh of the jungle hog, which they kill in chase: this food is allowable by their law. They likewise eat of mutton and fish; but these being unlawful the Brahmins will not partake, leaving those who chose to transgress their institutes to answer for themselves.
William Francklin in his writing about Mr George Thomas 1805​

It is clear from the above that there is a clear distinction between Sikhs (meat eaters), and those who chose to follow Brahmanical practices (Vegetarians), however there appears to be no dispute over this issue as people are allowed to decide for themselves.
The following is an Extract from an officer in the Bengal Army and is taken from the Asiatic Annual Register 1809:​

Now become a Singh, he is a heterodox, and distinct from the Hindoos by whom he is considered an apostate. He is not restricted in his diet, but is allowed, by the tenets of his new religion, to devour whatever food his appetite may prompt, excepting beef.
Asiatic Annual Register 1809​

Clearly, this gives us an idea that even independent observers of Sikhs who saw their eating habits. These Sikhs were around some 100 years after the demise of the last physical Sikh Guru and represented hardcore Sikh philosophy at that time

From my years at University many years ago, I remeber that one had to rely on evidence when putting forward a point.

These eyewitness accounts are by observers who were infact tryig to gain an understanding into the Sikh faith and culture, with a view to one day subduing them.

So these reports would have been as accurate as possible.......to not do so would have compromised any inroads the Brits wished to make........so this pretty much contradicts what you are saying.

I've said this before and I'll say it again....read more Sikh History and Bani together, you will get some answers.

man for someone whos always on about brahmins n hindus u sure seemn to love the europeans. LIKE I SAID, i dont TRUST or want to hear any "EYEWITNESS" accounts from european. they stoile from our libraries like the hindus, they massacred our sikhs, raped our women and DISRESPECTED sikhi as much as INDIRA GANDHI DID, n she tampered with ALOT of our history so hoW can u TRUST ANYTHING THEY'VE WRITTEN OR APPARENTLY "WITNESSED" when their prime aim when they took over rule was to CRUSH SIKHI????!!!!

im sorry mte but u sound like a MUSLIM to me cos ur trying to stray the people off the path to WAHEGURU using any means or FAKE evidence u can......plz remeber, u have alot to lose in the court of Dharam Raj if ur wrong,m and u definitly are- eating meat affects spirituality, n ur preventing anyone who may believe u from doing effective naam japp and acheiving this oneness. i really hope u know what kind of a crime ur committing by telling pple it doesnt, u have alotttt to lose...i have nothing, except the taste of meat, but im strong enough not to desire it....unlike some.....

 

[sikh78910]

Never forget 1984

and Jallianwala Bagh......


Waheguru ji.

 

[kds1980]

yup and its only the INTELLIGENT individuals who realise that u can literally get no where spiritually if u eat meat! lol, just like i could not when i was eatin it!

if meat is such bad thing for spirituality then guru ji should have clearly prescribed sikhs not to eat meat.guru ji is silent on this issue so it is clear that diet do not affect your spirituality.

i have a question to you if a person who is living in coastal area or in icy region want to be spritual then what should he/she do.there are many parts in this where eating meat is absolutely neccessity.so does it mean that those people cannot become spiritual.

the reality is it is not meat that is harmful for spirituality.the main culprit is taste and addiction of tasty food which is harmful for spirituality.the taste
arguement is equally applicable on veggie food like halwa ,puri,dal makhani
gulab jamun etc.of course meat is harmful for those who are addicted to it
because of it taste.just like veggies are addicted to tasty vegetarian food.

 

[Randip Singh]

probably, but it would prob take hundreds of year cos their body aint cleansed, so they may aswell be drinkin alcohol aswell.

yup and its only the INTELLIGENT individuals who realise that u can literally get no where spiritually if u eat meat! lol, just like i could not when i was eatin it!

man for someone whos always on about brahmins n hindus u sure seemn to love the europeans. LIKE I SAID, i dont TRUST or want to hear any "EYEWITNESS" accounts from european. they stoile from our libraries like the hindus, they massacred our sikhs, raped our women and DISRESPECTED sikhi as much as INDIRA GANDHI DID, n she tampered with ALOT of our history so hoW can u TRUST ANYTHING THEY'VE WRITTEN OR APPARENTLY "WITNESSED" when their prime aim when they took over rule was to CRUSH SIKHI????!!!!

Sorry to say this but now you sound like one of the illiterate paidoo's you meet and not a law student. A Law student gather's evidence to counter the oppositions evidence.....not resort to hearsay and inuendo.

Case Dismissed mr Sikh.....get out of court...you are disbarred.

im sorry mte but u sound like a MUSLIM to me cos ur trying to stray the people off the path to WAHEGURU using any means or FAKE evidence u can......plz remeber, u have alot to lose in the court of Dharam Raj if ur wrong,m and u definitly are- eating meat affects spirituality, n ur preventing anyone who may believe u from doing effective naam japp and acheiving this oneness. i really hope u know what kind of a crime ur committing by telling pple it doesnt, u have alotttt to lose...i have nothing, except the taste of meat, but im strong enough not to desire it....unlike some.....

Well well......now I am a Muslim.....you are showing your true colours now. Last refuge of a scoundrel hey? Debate lost so lets attack messenger. Sorry Sikh you fail. Everyone knows me here from Welcome to website about history of the sikhs ...........some know me personally.....however no one knows you? We have had plenty of RSS VHP people come here and other sites....maybe you are one of them?

Also I am a criminal now?......more blackmail and fear mongering.....is this what real "Sikhs" resort to when they lose a debate? Cheapshots and inuendo's. You have a long way to go my friend even before you can be called a Sikh.

Damm Shame....I thought you may know how to debate...but clearly you do not.

 

[sikh78910]

Case Dismissed mr Sikh.....get out of court...you are disbarred.

LOLLLL!!! errrrrrrrrrr...............NAH! lol ur a funny guy!
blackmail, and fear mongering?! kindly point out to me where in my post i tried to blackmail u..lol ....... and if ur scared, thats your own fault, i only told u what uv got to lose if u happen to be wrong about all of this!! lol im sorry if my words had such an effect on you!

n if u think ur meagre efforts to put people down as a way of making urself look big are gonna work, ur talking to the wrong person! u really seem to have an inferiority complex which needs immediate attention......!

and when did i EVER call u a criminal! if u were able to interpret in context, u would realise i wrote crime as in potential misdeed or an immoral act. u need to take a chill pilllll yaarrr and relax abit! i bleieve in univeral love an harmony stemming from the love of Waheguru, not hate. i have nothing against u but was merely pointing out a few facts and potential consequences of ur potential miscalculations and potential misconceptions and the spreading of these misconceptions!

On top of this, i never called u a Muslim mateee...let me take u back right about nowwwwwwww....

u sound like a MUSLIM

LOLL. you've literally called sooooooo many poeple on this forum BRAHMINS that ive lost count!! i really think u need a serious reality check.

Ohhhhhh and by the way, (i think ill say it again cos its so funny, haha)...i said u SOUNDDDDD like a muslim!! hahahahaha. let me just point out what a COMPLETEEE HYPOCRITE u are, and mate i feel very sorry for u if poeple on here know u cos ur making a COMPLETE FOOL out of yourself!! lol

now seriously paaaaaaa leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesseeeeee stop HATING ON THE LAW STUDENT ..and get ur either uneducated or un- legally informed (cos u obviously arent a law student if u hate on them so much!), insecure and hypocritical self some new reading glasses, cos it definitly aint me thats got the reading problem!


Nice attempt at trying to twist my words mate, ill give u that i still love u.

love n light

Sikh.

 

[Randip Singh]

LOLLLL!!! errrrrrrrrrr...............NAH! lol ur a funny guy!
blackmail, and fear mongering?! kindly point out to me where in my post i tried to blackmail u..lol ....... and if ur scared, thats your own fault, i only told u what uv got to lose if u happen to be wrong about all of this!! lol im sorry if my words had such an effect on you!

In case you missed it....it was also pointed out by Giani Arshi too.....scroll up.

The fact you :

1) Imply that people who eat meat will be punished in some sort of Semitic judgement day is fear mongering.

2) Seem to imply that spirtuality cannot be reached by meat eaters is fear mongering.

Fear always leads to hatred and anger.....a very unstable state for a Sikh to be.

As for being scared young man, I really don't think so. I think your belief system is guided by fear rather than Love and compassion. My is guided by the Sikh never say die, Chardhikalan attitude. You are but one in a billion I meet on the journey for life.

Fear is when you are set upon by 20 skinheads who wish to curt your hair and cut NF into your skin to remind you of the encounter with them. Fear is when 3000 hindu's come to burn you to death and you overcome that fear and fight them (even though you know you will die), like my reltives back in 1984 in Delhi.

So you know nothing about real fear.

n if u think ur meagre efforts to put people down as a way of making urself look big are gonna work, ur talking to the wrong person! u really seem to have an inferiority complex which needs immediate attention......!

People who need to look big are those motivated by ego......they usually are people with self doubt and try to fear monger. I have no doubts in Waheguru and I fear nothing.

and when did i EVER call u a criminal! if u were able to interpret in context, u would realise i wrote crime as in potential misdeed or an immoral act. u need to take a chill pilllll yaarrr and relax abit! i bleieve in univeral love an harmony stemming from the love of Waheguru, not hate. i have nothing against u but was merely pointing out a few facts and potential consequences of ur potential miscalculations and potential misconceptions and the spreading of these misconceptions!

Poor Law student....let me refresh you:

i really hope u know what kind of a crime ur committing by telling pple it doesnt, u have alotttt to lose...i have nothing, except the taste of meat, but im strong enough not to desire it....unlike some.....

Your words....not mine....and more fear mongering.

On top of this, i never called u a Muslim mateee...let me take u back right about nowwwwwwww....

Let me refresh your memory again:

im sorry mte but u sound like a MUSLIM to me cos ur trying to stray

Sounds like you called me a Muslim?

LOLL. you've literally called sooooooo many poeple on this forum BRAHMINS that ive lost count!! i really think u need a serious reality check.

I can prove that the present meat vege nonsense has its origins in Hindu Vaishnavism and Brahminism.........that is what I base this on.

Ohhhhhh and by the way, (i think ill say it again cos its so funny, haha)...i said u SOUNDDDDD like a muslim!! hahahahaha. let me just point out what a COMPLETEEE HYPOCRITE u are, and mate i feel very sorry for u if poeple on here know u cos ur making a COMPLETE FOOL out of yourself!! lol

I don't really care if I look like a fool........if I am a fool then God be praised I am being called a fool by you. I would rather be a fool that have your wisdom.

now seriously paaaaaaa leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesseeeeee stop HATING ON THE LAW STUDENT ..and get ur either uneducated or un- legally informed (cos u obviously arent a law student if u hate on them so much!), insecure and hypocritical self some new reading glasses, cos it definitly aint me thats got the reading problem!

Actually I work with Barrister and Lawyer everday in my career....I act as a legal witness. I am pretty familiar with legal goins on.

Nice attempt at trying to twist my words mate, ill give u that i still love u.

love n light

Sikh.

Word of advice.....think very clearly and concisely about what you are writing. The only person being twisted up here is you with your own words. Know what you mean and be clear that what you have written reflects what it means when you write it.

Best Wishes.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH


Manmat Explanation of the Originator of this Article:

Salok mehlaa 1.
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.


Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.


Rotting Carcasse – This is not the meaning of Murdaar.

Furthermore a very crucial word has been very cleverly omitted from the interpretation
“khaaj” – meaning favourite

Let us see what Murdaar means:

Ref: Encyclopedia of Sikh Literature - Mahankosh - Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha
defines Murdaar as follows:

Loth – Shav – Dead body
Svastkar te Soorveerta rehat - ……….and without bravery?
Pran rehet deh - Body without life
Apwitter cheez – Impure item
Dharam anusaar na khane yogya – Not worthy of eating according to Dharmic values
Haraam – Forbidden, Famous
Vaddi – Money not earned by honest means

There are many more……………

Shalok
ਸਲੋਕ ਮ ੧ ॥ ਕਲਿ ਹੋਈ ਕੁਤੇ ਮੁਹੀ ਖਾਜੁ ਹੋਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ ॥ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਭਉਕਣਾ ਚੂਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਨ ਜੀਵੰਦਿਆ ਪਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਮੁਇਆ ਮੰਦੀ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1242}

Meanings of words used:
Kal – Kalyug , Kutay muhee – faces like dogs , Murdaar – Dead bodies, Khaj – favourite Koorh – lies, Chooka – finished, passed away, Patt – respect, Soa – honour, Mandee soa – evil reputation, Likhaa hove – predestined,

Now let us put this the translations together as per the Shalok

Shalok, First Mehl:
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; their favourite food is a dead body
(What I ask you is the favourite food of a dog. Is it Makki di roti and sarson da saag?, Is it another vegetarian dish? or Is a by dead body – meaning flesh- meaning MEAT)
Is this not a mis-interpretation of the Verse. Important information left on purpose to mis-lead people to suit your agenda. Disgraceful. This cannot be the work of a sikh.

They bark repeatedly and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.


Translation in Gurmukhi
Meanings of words used:- kil—kljugI isRStI, auh lukweI jo r`b qoN ivCuVI hoeI hY (gur AwSy Anuswr auhI smw ‘kiljug’ hY jdoN gurU-prmwqmw ivsr jwey; ijvyN, “iek GVI n imlqy qw kiljugu hoqw”) [ kuqy muhI—ku`qy dy mUMh vwlI, ku`qy vWg ijs ƒ Kwx dw hlk ku`idAw hovy [ murdwru—hrwm, v`FI Awidk hrwm cIz [ kUVu—JUT [ cUkw—mu`k igAw [ piq—ie`zq [ soie—soBw [ mMdI soie—bdnwmI, kusoBw [ iliKAw hovY—m`Qy qy iliKAw lyK hI au~GVdw hY [ Kwju—mn-BwauNdw Kwxw [
Meaning of entire verse:- r`b qoN iv`CuVI hoeI lukweI ƒ ku`qy vWg Kwx dw hlk ku`idAw rihMdw hY qy v`FI Awidk hrwm cIz ies dw mn-BwauNdw Kwxw ho jWdw hY (ijvyN ku`qy dw mn-BwauNdw Kwxw murdwr hY); (ieh lukweI) sdw JUT boldI hY, (mwno, murdwr KWdy ku`qy vWg) BauNk rhI hY, (ies qrHW ies dy AMdroN) Drm (dI AMs) qy (r`b dy guxW dI) ivcwr mu`k jWdI hY; ijqnw icr Ajyhy lok (jgq ivc) jIauNdy hn iehnW dI (koeI bMdw) ie`zq nhIN (krdw), jdoN mr jWdy hn, (lok iehnW ƒ) BYiVEN Xwd krdy hn [
(pr) hy nwnk! (iehnW dy kIh v`s? ipCly krmW Anuswr) m`Qy auqy iliKAw lyK hI au~GVdw hY (qy aus lyK-Anuswr) jo kuJ krqwr krdw hY auhI huMdw hY [1[
As noted above, there are several meanings of the word Murdaar. The authour of this essay shows a distinct lack of knowledge of Gurbani and keeps trying to justify Murdaar as Meat is all the verses. This person or persons cannot be true Sikhs.

Now lets us examine take the following verses from Bhagat Kabir Page 1374 as used in the essay.

Manmat Explanation:
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.


Before we proceed futher, let us see how our historical reference books interpret these verses:

FARIDKOT WALA TEKA
Fridkot Wala Teeka is classical exegesis of Sri Guru Granth Sahid in “Brij Bhasha” by a team of scholars of Nirmala Sect. It was the first attempt in this field prompted by tRulers of Fridkot State in 19th Century. For all future attempts in this field, it became an ideal prototype. As it was patronized by the Rulers of Fridkot State, it came to be known as “Frdikot Wala Teeka”
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Sri Kabir ji kehte hain, Hey bhai kicharee ka khanna khoob hai meaning asha hai, jis kichadee mein amrit ke saman loon padda hua hai.
Kion ke (hera) shikar mein jivon ko mar ke maas ke saath roti khane ke karan se pishey apne ko kon katave - bhav - jeev ko marne karke phir apna sheesh tis se katvana padta hai
SRI GURU GRANTH DARPAN – by Professor Sahib Singh
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Hey Kabir! (Mullan nu beshak aakh de ke kurbani ke bahane mass khan nallon) kichadee kha leni change hai jis vich sirf suaadla loon paya hoya hove. Main te iss gal lye tyaar nahi han ki maas roti khan dhi niyat meri apni hovey par (Kurbani da hoka de de ke kise pashoo nu) jabar karda phiran
From the later text it appears the Kabir ji has directed his remark towards the Mullans (Religious Muslim leaders) of that time. This is what Kabir ji says in Guru Granth Sahib. This is a universal message for the sikh.
Now let us analyse this verse:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Meaning of words-

• Khoob – plentiful
• Kheechree - food prepared from lentils and rice
• Jaa meh - Jis wich – one that contains - for it is (flavoured)
• Amrit lon - flavour equivalent of Amrit (refering here to the purity and simplicity) lon i.e. only with simple salt.

Kabeer, Eat plentiful of Kheechree , for it is flavored simply with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

Meaning of words-

• Hayraa – Shikar – hunt ( meaning killing animals – causing death of animals )
• Roti – Bread – Food for eating
• Karnay – For the reason of or for the sake of
• Roti Karney – An activity done for the sake of eating
• Galaa – Throat
• Kataavai – to have it slit – to have it cut.
• Kaun – Who should, Why Should.

Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, Why should I have my throat slit in return.

Putting it together-
Kabir ji Says “I rather eat plentiful of Kheechree for it is flavoured simply with salt.
Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, why should I wait to have my throat slit in return.”

What Kabir ji is telling us in this verse is that when ever you kill an animal ( here although Kabir ji only mention an animal killed in shikaar – the hunted – by what means it does not matter - you are the cause of the death of that animal), time will come in the future where you will have to take turns i.e. you will have to make the same sacrifice for this animal when it takes human form and you shall take the animal form. Just as this animal has sacrificed itself for your sake (for the pleasure of your tongue ) you should be prepared for pay back. (This philosophy is widely accepted also in hindu scripturers. When ever hindus carry out sacrifices, they confess in those verses that they are accepting full liability that should this animal need our sacrifice in the future, we will be ready to make the sacrifice in retun.

This clearly shows how this individual or this goup of individuals have manipulated the verses for the sole purpose of mis-leading the Sikh Youngsters and justify their eating habits.

These manmati individuals have toppled the work of our Gurus up side down. There is a very strong relationship between "Diet and Spirituality" if you cannot see it it is your ill-fate.

It is an insult to the memories of our Guru’s. If this is what Kabir says in Guru Granth Sahib then how can one even contemplate accusing out Guru’s for indulging in the consumption of meat. Are they then also insinuating that our Guru’s have lived double standards?

It appears that Guru ji’s following Shalok is in reality directly towards these perpetrators and supporters of this topic.

Shalok mehlaa 1.
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.



May our Gurus have mercy on your souls.

 

[Randip Singh]

FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH


Manmat Explanation of the Originator of this Article:

Salok mehlaa 1.
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.


Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.


Rotting Carcasse – This is not the meaning of Murdaar.

Furthermore a very crucial word has been very cleverly omitted from the interpretation
“khaaj” – meaning favourite

Let us see what Murdaar means:

Ref: Encyclopedia of Sikh Literature - Mahankosh - Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha
defines Murdaar as follows:

Loth – Shav – Dead body
Svastkar te Soorveerta rehat - ……….and without bravery?
Pran rehet deh - Body without life
Apwitter cheez – Impure item
Dharam anusaar na khane yogya – Not worthy of eating according to Dharmic values
Haraam – Forbidden, Famous
Vaddi – Money not earned by honest means

There are many more……………

Shalok
ਸਲੋਕਮ੧॥ਕਲਿਹੋਈਕੁਤੇਮੁਹੀਖਾਜੁਹੋਆਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ॥ਕੂੜੁਬੋਲਿਬੋਲਿਭਉਕਣਾਚੂਕਾਧਰਮੁਬੀਚਾਰੁ॥ਜਿਨਜੀਵੰਦਿਆਪਤਿਨਹੀਮੁਇਆਮੰਦੀਸੋਇ॥ਲਿਖਿਆਹੋਵੈਨਾਨਕਾਕਰਤਾਕਰੇਸੁਹੋਇ॥੧॥{ਪੰਨਾ 1242}

Meanings of words used:
Kal – Kalyug , Kutay muhee – faces like dogs , Murdaar – Dead bodies, Khaj – favourite Koorh – lies, Chooka – finished, passed away, Patt – respect, Soa – honour, Mandee soa – evil reputation, Likhaa hove – predestined,

Now let us put this the translations together as per the Shalok

Shalok, First Mehl:
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; their favourite food is a dead body
(What I ask you is the favourite food of a dog. Is it Makki di roti and sarson da saag?, Is it another vegetarian dish? or Is a by dead body – meaning flesh- meaning MEAT)

No a dead body is not meat.......it is a dead body. I see a dead body on the road I would not classify it as meat. In the same way I would not classify a blade of grass as bread.

Is this not a mis-interpretation of the Verse. Important information left on purpose to mis-lead people to suit your agenda. Disgraceful. This cannot be the work of a sikh.

It is the work of several Sikhs actually. The work you have posted sounds tlike that of a Pandit! :rofl!!:

They bark repeatedly and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

Yes the Pandits were good at doing this.!

Translation in Gurmukhi
Meanings of words used:- kil—kljugI isRStI, auh lukweI jo r`b qoN ivCuVI hoeI hY (gur AwSy Anuswr auhI smw ‘kiljug’ hY jdoN gurU-prmwqmw ivsr jwey; ijvyN, “iek GVI n imlqy qw kiljugu hoqw”) [ kuqy muhI—ku`qy dy mUMh vwlI, ku`qy vWg ijs ƒ Kwx dw hlk ku`idAw hovy [ murdwru—hrwm, v`FI Awidk hrwm cIz [ kUVu—JUT [ cUkw—mu`k igAw [ piq—ie`zq [ soie—soBw [ mMdI soie—bdnwmI, kusoBw [ iliKAw hovY—m`Qy qy iliKAw lyK hI au~GVdw hY [ Kwju—mn-BwauNdw Kwxw [
Meaning of entire verse:- r`b qoN iv`CuVI hoeI lukweI ƒ ku`qy vWg Kwx dw hlk ku`idAw rihMdw hY qy v`FI Awidk hrwm cIz ies dw mn-BwauNdw Kwxw ho jWdw hY (ijvyN ku`qy dw mn-BwauNdw Kwxw murdwr hY); (ieh lukweI) sdw JUT boldI hY, (mwno, murdwr KWdy ku`qy vWg) BauNk rhI hY, (ies qrHW ies dy AMdroN) Drm (dI AMs) qy (r`b dy guxW dI) ivcwr mu`k jWdI hY; ijqnw icr Ajyhy lok (jgq ivc) jIauNdy hn iehnW dI (koeI bMdw) ie`zq nhIN (krdw), jdoN mr jWdy hn, (lok iehnW ƒ) BYiVEN Xwd krdy hn [
(pr) hy nwnk! (iehnW dy kIh v`s? ipCly krmW Anuswr) m`Qy auqy iliKAw lyK hI au~GVdw hY (qy aus lyK-Anuswr) jo kuJ krqwr krdw hY auhI huMdw hY [1[
As noted above, there are several meanings of the word Murdaar. The authour of this essay shows a distinct lack of knowledge of Gurbani and keeps trying to justify Murdaar as Meat is all the verses. This person or persons cannot be true Sikhs.

Below is what the essay says:


5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)
Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1.
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.
Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.
The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.


What you have stated above makes no differnce but clearly demonstrates to us that you are desperate to push forward something that is not there - Murdaar = Dead Bodies and NOT Meat. Maas = Meat. You are twisting Bani = That = pure Manmaat

Now lets us examine take the following verses from Bhagat Kabir Page 1374 as used in the essay.

Manmat Explanation:

This sort od abusive tone from you must STOP NOW Ekh Musafir. I am going to report you to the moderator.

How DARE YOU ACCUSE me of Manmaat yet again.

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.


Before we proceed futher, let us see how our historical reference books interpret these verses:

FARIDKOT WALA TEKA
Fridkot Wala Teeka is classical exegesis of Sri Guru Granth Sahid in “Brij Bhasha” by a team of scholars of Nirmala Sect. It was the first attempt in this field prompted by tRulers of Fridkot State in 19th Century. For all future attempts in this field, it became an ideal prototype. As it was patronized by the Rulers of Fridkot State, it came to be known as “Frdikot Wala Teeka”
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Sri Kabir ji kehte hain, Hey bhai kicharee ka khanna khoob hai meaning asha hai, jis kichadee mein amrit ke saman loon padda hua hai.
Kion ke (hera) shikar mein jivon ko mar ke maas ke saath roti khane ke karan se pishey apne ko kon katave - bhav - jeev ko marne karke phir apna sheesh tis se katvana padta hai
SRI GURU GRANTH DARPAN – by Professor Sahib Singh
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Hey Kabir! (Mullan nu beshak aakh de ke kurbani ke bahane mass khan nallon) kichadee kha leni change hai jis vich sirf suaadla loon paya hoya hove. Main te iss gal lye tyaar nahi han ki maas roti khan dhi niyat meri apni hovey par (Kurbani da hoka de de ke kise pashoo nu) jabar karda phiran
From the later text it appears the Kabir ji has directed his remark towards the Mullans (Religious Muslim leaders) of that time. This is what Kabir ji says in Guru Granth Sahib. This is a universal message for the sikh.
Now let us analyse this verse:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Meaning of words-

• Khoob – plentiful
• Kheechree - food prepared from lentils and rice
• Jaa meh - Jis wich – one that contains - for it is (flavoured)
• Amrit lon - flavour equivalent of Amrit (refering here to the purity and simplicity) lon i.e. only with simple salt.

Kabeer, Eat plentiful of Kheechree , for it is flavored simply with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

Meaning of words-

• Hayraa – Shikar – hunt ( meaning killing animals – causing death of animals )
• Roti – Bread – Food for eating
• Karnay – For the reason of or for the sake of
• Roti Karney – An activity done for the sake of eating
• Galaa – Throat
• Kataavai – to have it slit – to have it cut.
• Kaun – Who should, Why Should.

Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, Why should I have my throat slit in return.

Putting it together-
Kabir ji Says “I rather eat plentiful of Kheechree for it is flavoured simply with salt.
Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, why should I wait to have my throat slit in return.”

What Kabir ji is telling us in this verse is that when ever you kill an animal ( here although Kabir ji only mention an animal killed in shikaar – the hunted – by what means it does not matter - you are the cause of the death of that animal), time will come in the future where you will have to take turns i.e. you will have to make the same sacrifice for this animal when it takes human form and you shall take the animal form. Just as this animal has sacrificed itself for your sake (for the pleasure of your tongue ) you should be prepared for pay back. (This philosophy is widely accepted also in hindu scripturers. When ever hindus carry out sacrifices, they confess in those verses that they are accepting full liability that should this animal need our sacrifice in the future, we will be ready to make the sacrifice in retun.

The above nonsense you have written makes no sense to the explanation. You have disproved nothing.

This clearly shows how this individual or this goup of individuals have manipulated the verses for the sole purpose of mis-leading the Sikh Youngsters and justify their eating habits.

These manmati individuals have toppled the work of our Gurus up side down. There is a very strong relationship between "Diet and Spirituality" if you cannot see it it is your ill-fate.

You are pushing forward your Hindu Vaishnav virews forward. This has nothing to do with Sikhism.

It is an insult to the memories of our Guru’s. If this is what Kabir says in Guru Granth Sahib then how can one even contemplate accusing out Guru’s for indulging in the consumption of meat. Are they then also insinuating that our Guru’s have lived double standards?

The only insult here is buy people like you who have made Gurbani into a cheap a-la-carte menu. That is what is so insulting.

It appears that Guru ji’s following Shalok is in reality directly towards these perpetrators and supporters of this topic.

Shalok mehlaa 1.
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.



May our Gurus have mercy on your souls.

Nonsense.....people like you are on the defnsive....you lack any argument so you perpertrate insult and inuedo to make your point. What a shame, this shows the total desperation you suffer from.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Randip Singh ji

I am again posting this article back on the board by removing unnecessary person comments in the hope that you will make a constructive reply. Give me your reasons and Why. Which particular word or sentence do you not agree with in the translation.

FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH

Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.


Rotting Carcasse – This is not the meaning of Murdaar.

Furthermore a very crucial word has been omitted from the interpretation.
“khaaj” – meaning favourite

Let us see what Murdaar means:

Ref: Encyclopedia of Sikh Literature - Mahankosh - Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha
defines Murdaar as follows:

Loth – Shav – Dead body
Svastkar te Soorveerta rehat - ……….and without bravery?
Pran rehet deh - Body without life
Apwitter cheez – Impure item
Dharam anusaar na khane yogya – Not worthy of eating according to Dharmic values
Haraam – Forbidden, Famous
Vaddi – Money not earned by honest means

There are many more……………

Shalok
ਸਲੋਕਮ੧॥ਕਲਿਹੋਈਕੁਤੇਮੁਹੀਖਾਜੁਹੋਆਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ॥ਕੂੜੁਬੋਲਿਬੋਲਿਭਉਕਣਾਚੂਕਾਧਰਮੁਬੀਚਾਰੁ॥ਜਿਨਜੀਵੰਦਿਆਪਤਿਨਹੀਮੁਇਆਮੰਦੀਸੋਇ॥ਲਿਖਿਆਹੋਵੈਨਾਨਕਾਕਰਤਾਕਰੇਸੁਹੋਇ॥੧॥{ਪੰਨਾ 1242}

Meanings of words used:
Kal – Kalyug , Kutay muhee – faces like dogs , Murdaar – Dead bodies, Khaj – favourite Koorh – lies, Chooka – finished, passed away, Patt – respect, Soa – honour, Mandee soa – evil reputation, Likhaa hove – predestined,

Now let us put this the translations together as per the Shalok

Shalok, First Mehl:
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; their favourite food is a dead body
(I ask you. What is the favourite food of a dog?.
Is it not by dead body – meaning flesh- meaning MEAT)

They bark repeatedly and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.


Translation in Gurmukhi
Meanings of words used:- kil—kljugI isRStI, auh lukweI jo r`b qoN ivCuVI hoeI hY (gur AwSy Anuswr auhI smw ‘kiljug’ hY jdoN gurU-prmwqmw ivsr jwey; ijvyN, “iek GVI n imlqy qw kiljugu hoqw”) [ kuqy muhI—ku`qy dy mUMh vwlI, ku`qy vWg ijs ƒ Kwx dw hlk ku`idAw hovy [ murdwru—hrwm, v`FI Awidk hrwm cIz [ kUVu—JUT [ cUkw—mu`k igAw [ piq—ie`zq [ soie—soBw [ mMdI soie—bdnwmI, kusoBw [ iliKAw hovY—m`Qy qy iliKAw lyK hI au~GVdw hY [ Kwju—mn-BwauNdw Kwxw [
Meaning of entire verse:- r`b qoN iv`CuVI hoeI lukweI ƒ ku`qy vWg Kwx dw hlk ku`idAw rihMdw hY qy v`FI Awidk hrwm cIz ies dw mn-BwauNdw Kwxw ho jWdw hY (ijvyN ku`qy dw mn-BwauNdw Kwxw murdwr hY); (ieh lukweI) sdw JUT boldI hY, (mwno, murdwr KWdy ku`qy vWg) BauNk rhI hY, (ies qrHW ies dy AMdroN) Drm (dI AMs) qy (r`b dy guxW dI) ivcwr mu`k jWdI hY; ijqnw icr Ajyhy lok (jgq ivc) jIauNdy hn iehnW dI (koeI bMdw) ie`zq nhIN (krdw), jdoN mr jWdy hn, (lok iehnW ƒ) BYiVEN Xwd krdy hn [
(pr) hy nwnk! (iehnW dy kIh v`s? ipCly krmW Anuswr) m`Qy auqy iliKAw lyK hI au~GVdw hY (qy aus lyK-Anuswr) jo kuJ krqwr krdw hY auhI huMdw hY [1[

As noted above, there are several meanings of the word Murdaar. The authour is concentrating on one Word only and taking one meaning only. We ought to look at it in the right context.



Now lets us examine take the following verses from Bhagat Kabir Page 1374 as used in the essay.

Before we proceed futher, let us see how our historical reference books interpret these verses:

FARIDKOT WALA TEKA
Fridkot Wala Teeka is classical exegesis of Sri Guru Granth Sahid in “Brij Bhasha” by a team of scholars of Nirmala Sect. It was the first attempt in this field prompted by tRulers of Fridkot State in 19th Century. For all future attempts in this field, it became an ideal prototype. As it was patronized by the Rulers of Fridkot State, it came to be known as “Frdikot Wala Teeka”
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Sri Kabir ji kehte hain, Hey bhai kicharee ka khanna khoob hai meaning asha hai, jis kichadee mein amrit ke saman loon padda hua hai.
Kion ke (hera) shikar mein jivon ko mar ke maas ke saath roti khane ke karan se pishey apne ko kon katave - bhav - jeev ko marne karke phir apna sheesh tis se katvana padta hai
SRI GURU GRANTH DARPAN – by Professor Sahib Singh
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Hey Kabir! (Mullan nu beshak aakh de ke kurbani ke bahane mass khan nallon) kichadee kha leni change hai jis vich sirf suaadla loon paya hoya hove. Main te iss gal lye tyaar nahi han ki maas roti khan dhi niyat meri apni hovey par (Kurbani da hoka de de ke kise pashoo nu) jabar karda phiran
From the later text it appears the Kabir ji has directed his remark towards the Mullans (Religious Muslim leaders) of that time. This is what Kabir ji says in Guru Granth Sahib. This is a universal message for the sikh.
Now let us analyse this verse:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Meaning of words-

• Khoob – plentiful
• Kheechree - food prepared from lentils and rice
• Jaa meh - Jis wich – one that contains - for it is (flavoured)
• Amrit lon - flavour equivalent of Amrit (refering here to the purity and simplicity) lon i.e. only with simple salt.

Kabeer, Eat plentiful of Kheechree , for it is flavored simply with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

Meaning of words-

• Hayraa – Shikar – hunt ( meaning killing animals – causing death of animals )
• Roti – Bread – Food for eating
• Karnay – For the reason of or for the sake of
• Roti Karney – An activity done for the sake of eating
• Galaa – Throat
• Kataavai – to have it slit – to have it cut.
• Kaun – Who should, Why Should.

Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, Why should I have my throat slit in return.

Putting it together-
Kabir ji Says “I rather eat plentiful of Kheechree for it is flavoured simply with salt.
Killing an animal for the sake of eating it, why should I wait to have my throat slit in return.”

What Kabir ji is telling us in this verse is that when ever you kill an animal ( here although Kabir ji only mentions an animal killed in shikaar – the hunted – by what means it does not matter - you are the cause of the death of that animal), time will come in the future where you will have to take turns i.e. you will have to make the same sacrifice for this animal when it takes human form and you shall take the animal form. Just as this animal has sacrificed itself for your sake (for the pleasure of your tongue ) you should be prepared for pay back. (This philosophy is widely accepted also in hindu scripturers. When ever hindus carry out sacrifices, they confess in those verses that they are accepting full liability that should this animal need our sacrifice in the future, we will be ready to make the sacrifice in retun.

Please present your argument with shabad arth for comartive study so that we can come to a conclusion.

Also please tell me what is the source of your translation ?

Kind Regards