Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

<<Duniyadar,nothing to do with faith and in all wordly affaris.Sikh in such place is more a turbanned Hindu.
>>

Vijaydeep singh ji

thanks for the reply..

can you explain the line quoted above on following points -

How can you use the term "turbaned Hindu" ? do you mean to say that every sikh is a turbaned hindu ?

How can you assume that a Hindu is always in this state only ? Do you mean to say that being hindu means being in worldly state?

How can you assume that only a Turbaned person can follow the four steps? Do you assume that a sikh is always turbaned?

Yes das got from where you are coming.

Anyway das should have writtan that a person with hairs and turban is still a turbaned Hindu.

why das use term Hindu has some other reason.

Hindu means Indian(das will not get into here that wheather it is due to indus or due to derogatory refreance by pagan farsis invaders) and being attached to national boundaris .So das wrote as such.

Soi when as person moves at higher state he/she may not belive in regeonal/racial boundaris and see God in all.so no longer Punjabi or Indian(Hindu),Black or white.Das hopes that that this doubt is cleared.

Yes a non Turban Person can move vide this way.

Sansari-Jigyasu-Sadhu-Sant

As Gyani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen Ji told.

But simlar way in Gurmat goes vide.

Duniyadar-Sikh-Singh-Khalsa.

So sikh can be without Turban but still Singh does undergo baptism.

anyway there are ways for those who do not want to undergo Amrit Sanakar or may not want to wear Turban as per Gurmat.

They are Udasi(in Hindus they are Udaseen),Nirmalas and Seva Panthis.

But in them in place of Singh there can be Sadhu.But when they make some one Singh,them Baptism is needed so Truban also.In Past Taksal also had provision of Sikhs wihtout all 5ks or baptism.

more info can be obtained from Sanatan Sikhi.


And das hoper doubts are cleared or das will again try to clarify.

 

[Randip Singh]

Hello again
Sorry I have been off this thread for a while (busy weekend) – however I managed to grab two hours this evening. There seem to be an overwhelming number of replies that it would take me too long to reply to them all. Even if I did I feel we would be going round in circles as people are just intent to find the smallest faults and apply the maximum spin to the words of this simple Sikh.

Spin or opinions you do not share? Everyone is entitled to an opinion as are you my friend.

Therefore I try my very hardest to make this my last post on this particular thread. However where previously I have only shared some of my own feelings on the issue – instead I humbly endeavour (with my limited knowledge) to reply directly to the issues raised by Randip Ji as the author of the original article. You can then make play of my words to your hearts content for after this you will have lost my attention.


Firstly to summarise the points Ranjit has made:

• Mistranslation and Mis-interpretation of the SGGS.
• Flesh of Animal is the same as the flesh from vegetation.
• Approval from other authors
• Sikhs in History ate meat
• The Gurus – approved of and ate meat
• Hukamnama of 6th and 10th Masters.
• Vegetarian Bhagats, Sadhu’s, Sant’s and Sangat are merely Vaishnav Hindu’s
• Jhatka meat is approved
• Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay
• Final Thoughts

No one is playing with any of your words, I am sorry you feel like that.

1. Mistranslation and Misinterpretation of the SGGS.
Firstly to save retyping everything please reference what Randip Ji has included on page1 (points 1 to 7 in red at the top).

Who is doing the Mistranslation or Misinterpretation – the people you refer to or you yourself. To me there is one clear message in there – do not kill to eat and being veggie alone will not bring union with Akal. Without Naam your being vegetarian will be no good.

Again that is your opinion. The message to me is that your diet will not bring you closer to God, whether meat or Veggie. Each has exactly the same amount of life. No more no less.

You have explained your interpretation of those shabads – so obviously you must be right and everyone else must be wrong..?

Tell me, what is wrong with putting one line into an entire shabad and putting it in context?

Also tell me what is wrong with pointing out flaws in English translation? No matter how people try and spin it Halal and Bismil does not mean Kill, as has been written here. Even a 10 year old child knows that Bismil and Halal is something to do with Islamic ritual. Surely there is no harm in doing that?

Also for years sites like www.akg.org.......it's all in the name.q and Sikh Information Guru Nanak Gobind Singh have deliberately mistranslated and misrepresented the lines from Bani to promote their Vegetarian Agenda……………….what is wrong with redressing these sites?

2. Flesh of Animal is the same as the flesh from vegetation
I have touched on this in a previous post. I have not denied that there is life in vegetables as well as animals. Nor do I deny that killing life is sometimes necessary and/or unavoidable. Nor do I deny my own senses. Akal’s creation is limitless and in-describable.
The animals you choose to kill merely for food are undeniably created with senses similar to our own.

Senses similar to our own is not a measure of life. Tommorow Aliens may land that may have sense totally different from us…………….would they not be a life form?

I disagree on this point………..this is not "undeniable"……………..plants have senses. For example…..I keep plants……….I play music to my plant it grows more……I talk to my plant and it grows more……..I groom my plant and it grows more.

Scientist and lay people (like me) have done experiments on this:

http://www.dovesong.com/positive_music/plant_experiments.asp
http://www.yogamag.net/archives/2000/3may00/plants.shtml

Opinions on this vary, but my own observations have shown my plants thrive with certain music. This to me is proof enough that plants have senses.

In addition to this my plants, breath, they breed, they feed.

In my school days we connected a plant up to a micro meter which can pick up small currents, and found ripping leaves off plants caused massive hifts in current resembling some sort of trauma.

Also Bani tells me:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.​

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.​

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji​

​

​

Therefore we can understand to an extent the cruelty there is in slaughtering it (in whichever manner Halal, Jhatka etc).Just as we can understand how cruel some rulers in India were when they slaughtered the Guru’s Sikh’s.

Totally disagree.

According to Bani there is just as much cruelty in killing a Plant, or Mineral as killing an animal…………………….Human's are on a level above plant, minerals and animal.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji​

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.

ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.

ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.

ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay. ​

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji​

​

​

​

Akal has made it known that there is life in all. However he has made us only able to comprehend (to our limited ability) the suffering of animals rather than vegetation (unless you claim to be able to see that Randip Ji,)

I claim nothing. The message above is clear as daylight from Bani.

On one level you have plants, animal, and minerals, and on the next level you have humans. Bani is clear on this. Re-read the shabad above:

How else to you explain mving from plant incarnation to human next?

in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life

The Guru’s and Waheguru’s Bhagat’s were above us – they by the grace of God had that ability, not us mere men.
The Guru taught us to acknowledge many things of the Lords illusion – but when did he teach us to deny that part of the illusion that we can clearly see..? In fact, did they not teach us that to renounce that which the Lord put before us would be akin to renouncing the Lord..?
Thereby we must acknowledge that before us as well as accept the that things happen that we cannot see or comprehend but can do nothing about as I need vegetation to survive, I do not need animal meat to survive.

I disagree.

For human's to operate at optimum levels they mush have some meat. This I know from power lifting. It is not enough just to exist, but life must be about bettering ourselves. Animal's in the jungle merely "survive"…………..surviving is not the goal of humanity. Betterment and sarbat da bala is the goal of humans.

Bettering oneself mentally and physically is the goal of the Gurmukh. Vegeterians they can do it without meat.....then I say goodluck to them. My experience says otherwise.

Alternatively if you are gifted enough to see that there is as much suffering when you kill vegetation for food as there is when you kill animals for food – perhaps you should not eat the flesh of plants or the flesh of animals.

That is not the debate here at all. The debate is whether the life of a plant is equal to the life of an animal. In terms of Karma it clearly is according to Sikhi.

OR, if all flesh is the same – please kill me and serve me up. However, don’t forget to do Bhog before digging in.

Now you are being silly. Bani clearly states that human life is precious above all:

Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!

3. Approval from other authors
Apologies – but I have no interest in what your meat eating 2 a penny authors have to say in their 2 a penny books just to try and justify there own eating habbits.

To bad you have so much disdain for academics and men and women of spirituality who have dedicated their lives to Sikhism and Sikh History.

These people are far wiser and cleverer than you or me and have far greater knowledge about Sikhi than you or me.

Many of these authors are vegetarians………..and yet they agree that meat eating and vegetarianism has nothing to do with Sikhi.

4. Sikhs in History ate meat
The examples you cite are from after the human lives of our Gurus. However, I do not deny that some Sikhs ate meat during the Guru’s time as well as after it.

However a lot of the pro-meat group states that it occurred during the time of the Guru – and site specific examples in war times when other food had ran out. E.g. Most of this refers to the siege of Anandpur.

None of these references refer to the siege of Anandpur Sahib. We have been careful in making sure we didn't do that.

During this siege the Guru his Sikhs and his family were cut off from food for 9months. It was suggested that Sikh’s under this incredible hardship were forced to eat meat. I don’t necessarily agree that they did – but let us for a moment assume that they did (excluding Guru Ji). They went hungry for nine months and they were fighting for the very survival of Sikhi and were therefore forced to eat what they could in order to keep their strength in the face of the enemy.
Tell me – do you go without for even a day..? What war for mankind are you waging..?

Like I said an irrelevant point, and none of these refrences are to do with Anandpur Sahib. Some are much later, and some at the time of Guru Hargobind ji.

On a side note, I prefer the taste of vegetarian food…..white channay a favourite.

It seems meat eating Sikhs thereafter have used that as justification for there habit.

You are assuming too much. The input for this essay comes from vegetarians too. Don't let your ego feed your prejudices.

5. The Gurus – approved of and ate meat
The Gurus had previously merged with the Akal. They were one with the Akal when He sent them to teach us.
You cannot understand their actions any more than you can understand Akal (Sochi Soch na Hovai je Sohci Lakh War). It is people like you who think the Guru merely enacted a theatre play at the birth of the Khalsa by killing goats rather than taking the heads of the Panj Pyare.
Yes, the some of the Gurus did hunt – but don’t for one second bring the Guru down to your level and say they did it in order to eat (when was there ever a shortage in Guru Ka Langar). You cannot understand their reasons for they were one with Akal.
They did it for a higher purpose under hukam from Akal. They did it to eliminate animals that were threatening Sangat or they did it (up-to-the point of the actual kill) for training.

An incredible amount of finger waving and pontificating. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and contemporary History texts are available to verify the Guru's actions.

They killed animals for:

· food
· training
· and killing ferocious beasts.

The first you and your ilk seem to be in denial about. There was no shortage of Guru ka Langaar.

Let us for one moment assume you are right and the Guru’s killed and then ate for food.
The Gurus were our teachers. They taught us many things but above all practised what they taught. Gurus taught us to be above this, to control our emotions and urges if we were to develop spiritually. Something we often find difficult.
For example. Kirt Karna, Naam Japna, Vand Shakna.
The Guru’s believed so greatly in Vand Shakna that they formalised it and institutionalised Langar in Sikhi. The Guru would therefore have had ALL of their meals as part of, or prepared from Guru ka Langar. Langar, even by your own admission has always and will always be vegetarian (and Guru Ji defined that vegetarianism as NOT the flesh of killed animals) – therefore the Guru’s NEVER ate meat.

A smokescreen and a common misconception. Langaar is vegetarian for the reason of Sarbat da Bala…..or everyone's benefit……………with this compromise is needed and vegetarian seemed to be a good compromise that would be acceptble to all faiths. Muslims eat Halal etc.

From the essay:

The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat together in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.

6. Hukamnama of 6th and 10th Masters.
Why do you so easily readily dismiss the Hukamnama of 6th Master. Does it contradict your desires...? Are we above the consequences if you are wrong..?
If as I believe it is genuine - it would apply to all Sikh – then and now.
The Hukam of 10th master for Sikhs in a Muslim land where Kuttha would generally be the only meat available does NOT contradict this in any way.
Note: The Shabad you quote does not clearly define Kuttha only as ritually slaughtered meat.

I am inclined to dismiss both Hukamnama's as the message of the Guru's would not have deviated. The 6th Guru's Hukamnama is always used by pro-Veggie groups……………..what we demonstrated here is an alternative view.

The Shabad does confirm what Kuttha means actually totally. That’s why we published the entire shabad and not a snippet. You are spinning this point…..and just to confirm this point:

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."

Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

This is a clasic tactic employed by AKJ type groups who wish to misinform people on this point.

Just to reaffirm the view of Bani on Kuthaa....note how this shabad refers to Kutthaa specifically as ritualistic of Halal:

page 956
ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:

ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
सच की काती सचु सभु सारु ॥
sach kee kaatee sach sabh saar.
The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.

ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
घाड़त तिस की अपर अपार ॥
ghaarhat tis kee apar apaar.
Its workmanship is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥
सबदे साण रखाई लाइ ॥
sabday saan rakhaa-ee laa-ay.
It is sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.

ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
गुण की थेकै विचि समाइ ॥
gun kee thaykai vich samaa-ay.
It is placed in the scabbard of virtue.

ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥
तिस दा कुठा होवै सेखु ॥
tis daa kuthaa hovai saykh.
If the Shaykh is killed with that,

ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥
लोहू लबु निकथा वेखु ॥
lohoo lab nikthaa vaykh.
then the blood of greed will spill out.

ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
होइ हलालु लगै हकि जाइ ॥
ho-ay halaal lagai hak jaa-ay.
One who is slaughtered in this ritualistic way, will be attached to the Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਦੀਦਾਰਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
नानक दरि दीदारि समाइ ॥२॥
naanak dar deedaar samaa-ay. ||2||
O Nanak, at the Lord's door, he is absorbed into His Blessed Vision. ||2||

7. Vegetarian Bhagats, Sadhu’s, Sant’s and Sangat are merely Vaishnav Hindu’s
The Bhagats were great souls you were at one with the Akal. Why do you dismiss them so readily, is your gyan greater than theirs..? Has Waheguru communicated through them, or do you have that connection..? You are happy to misinterpret the Shabads of Kabir Ji – but you forget that after all is said and done (e.g not plucking flowers etc), he was a vegetarian.
Why do you ignore the other Bhagats in the SGGS..? For example do you forget the reasons why Bhagat Sadhna became vegetarian and become Akal Bhagat..? What food did Bhagat Dhana ask Akal to provide him with..? etc etc

We don't dismiss the Bhagats at all………for example Sheikh Farid was a Muslim………if you read his writings he talks about the way to God through Allah and Islam……….should we follow his example and become Muslims?

Clearly not……the Guru's were selective in what porions of the Bhagats teachings they incorporated the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji……and only that which showed a common belief.

Another example is Bhaghat Kabir stating it is sinful to sit in the company of women……………clearly against the teachings of Bani.

I suggest you read more about the Bhagats and find out what was actually left out.

You accuse contemporary Khalsa Sadhu’s, Sants (not the type who write books etc) as being Hindu vaishnavs. I don’t know how many Sadhu’s & Sants you have met – but the majority I have met have had no agenda other than Waheguru Jaap and Sangat Seva. Some of these Sant Sadhus have performed maha tapasia and seva. They are Guru das – and a lot closer to Waheguru than I am. There are a few even, who our Guru’s still communicate through to Gurmukh Sangat today (although most manmukh will deny this).
Yet if these Guru sevadars say you should not kill animals for food – you much like other academic manmukhs say they must be Hindu Vaishavs..!

I think you need to learn where groups like GNNSJ, AKJ etc had their roots from. KDS knows more about this than me, but many definitely have or have had Hindu Vaishnav links.

8. Jhatka meat is approved
Here none of you have a problem in identifying Jhatka meat as meat of an animal rather than vegetable. Your argument that vegetables are chopped quickly is irrelevant as that is not always the case. Nor are you enlightened enough to understand Time. Besides even you quote Shabad from p143 of the SGGS with regards to what the sugar cane experiences AFTER it is cut down.
You say Jhatka is approved over other meats as it is not sacrificial but killed in a certain way. Sacrificial e.g. Halal generally means that at kill time animal is offered to appease God before consumption.
So what is the difference between that and offering meat to God for blessing after it is killed? A Sikh should offer all food for Bhog (or at least say a prayer over it) before consumption.

You are confusing the issue.

Halal is an attempt to appease God……….Jhatka or Langar is of any kind, a prayer said afterwards is thanking God for the food. A massive difference. Too bad you cannot understand this.

The fact that the plant suffers still after being cut shows how humane Jhatka is………….because after Jhatka the animal is dead. Nowhere in Bani does it say the animal suffers for ages……but it dos so say about plants.

9. Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay.
You have interpreted the Shabad in your way. I would offer my humble thoughts on that. However, I DO NOT like to do this for who am I to interpret Shabad for others – therefore I will offer an interpretation by another person which I agree with.

deeper study of the whole hymn brings out:

Herein, Guru Sahib is addressing a Vaishnav Pandit who believes that he can achieve his spiritual goal only by avoiding meat as food and not trying to obtain the true wisdom through meditation. Guru Ji has stressed that only avoiding meat will not lead one to the achievement of Spiritual Bliss if one does not do Naam-Simran. This equally applies to all, including non-meat-eating Sikhs.

It relates to the flesh or meat in general and not to any particular type of flesh - whether prepared by Halaal or Jhatka method. The Sikh supporters of flesh eating do not accept at all the intake of all types of meat, but according to them, only Jhatka meat is permissible and Halaal is totally prohibited. In other words, what does the term "Kuthha" denote?

The flesh of the mother's womb wherein the human body is born, the flesh of the mother's breasts which feed the infant, the flesh of the tongue, ears, mouth, etc., used for perception of various senses of the body, the flesh in the form of wife and off-springs referred to in the Shabad, is flesh no doubt and one cannot escape it, but is it the flesh to be eaten as food by the humans? Does the love for this type of flesh involve any cruelty or slaughter of living bodies? Obviously, the Shabad has a deeper meaning telling Vaishnav pandits that merely escaping from the flesh does not take one anywhere. Nor can anyone get rid of the flesh (i.e., attainment of salvation from the cycle of birth and death) by his own futile efforts without the Grace of the True Guru.

I probably agree with a lot of this, but the shabad is all embracing…..it talks about flesh in all its uses and about consumption as well. This shabad is addressing people like you who seem to think they have the spiritual and moral higher ground because they don't eat meat. If Guruji thought so lowly of people who eat meat and work with meat he never would have included shabads from Sheikh Farid or Sadana.

Bhai Gurdas goes further and sings the praises of Goat Meat in particular:

Pauri 13 (Bakari de alankar ton upades)
Hasati akhaju guman kari sihu satana koi na khai
Hoi nimani bakari din duni vadiai pai
Maranai paranai maniai jag bhog paravanu karai
Masu pavitr grihast no andhahu tar vichari vajai
Chamare dian kari jutia sadhu charan saran liv lai
Tur pakhavaj maride kiratanu sadh sangati sukhadai
Sadh sangati satigur saranai
Pauri 13 - (Lesson from goat)
The proud elephant is inedible and none eats the mighty lion. Goat is humble and hence is is respected everywhere. On occaissions of death, joy, marriage, yajna, etc only its meat is accepted. Among the householders its meat is acknowledged as sacred and with its gut stringed instruments are made. From its leather the shoes are made to be used by the the saints merged in their meditation upon the Lord. Drums are mounted by its skin and then in the holy congregation the delight-giving kirtan, eulogy of the Lord is sung. In fact, going to the holy congregation is the same as going to the shelter of the true Guru.

11. Final Thoughts
My very first post on this thread stated.
I am a fool for writing these comments, just as you are a fool for writing the original article. For I will not change your outlook on the issue just as though you will never change mine.

Personally I don’t give a hoot if you eat non-veg food. If I wrote a list of a million things I care about, your diet would still not feature.
What I do care about though is when academic manmukhs like you try to propagate your personal brand of Sikhi to the sangat.

Manmukh…….I have been civil till now with you and I suggest a civil tongue from you. You suffer from the malady that many vegetarians and meat eaters suffer from and that is Egotism………………..Hankaar clouds your judgement and when someone has an answer for your every question you resort to cheapshots?!!!

I won't play that game……………..If I am a Manmukh in your eyes, then I consider that a blessing……………..I must be telling the truth.

Have you given the smallest, slightest most miniscule passing thought to the possibility that you may be wrong..? Even if there was a 1 in 10billion chance that you may be mistaken about non-veg being acceptable – is that a risk you are willing to take..?

I maybe wrong, but you have not come out with a single coherent point to convince me otherwise. If anything you have reconfirmed my view and that of Bani that people who espouse a certain diet whether Vegetarian or meat eater are full of Egotism.

As for risk…..my conscience is clear…..I have no guilt…..I accept food in good faith…..meat or vegetarian.

Surely as for the vast majority of us meat avoidance is viable and non-veg food is NOTHING BUT an option for you – would you not rather tread the line of caution..?

Who says you are the majority? Most Gursikh's I know don't quibble about diet. Some are Vegetarian and some are Meat eaters. All Amritdhari's and United Sikh brothers. Your statements I feel are nothing but divisive to that Union.

Why should I deny my body essential Amino's you only get from meat? Essential oil from fish that help my joint and brain? You don't want to eat meat……I respect that…………….so please respect my choice as a Sikh not to be vegetarian.

Anyway – like I said at the start, I will not be posting any more reply’s on this thread. Goodbye for now (until we meet on another thread).

I thought this thread was going to be constructive………..unfortunately you have ended it on a sour note with personal attacks. I hope and pray you do not carry on other debates like this.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Huqamannamaha is from Ganda Singh Jis book and that is perhaps been preceded by Guru Guru Karo Janam Saverge and Masu Machchhi Ke Nera Na Jana.That is more to do with Nam Abhyas being told by Sixth Master.

And in fact it was not included by Tenth Master in Damdami Beerh.Yet it should be respected.

By the way if maas kar Murakh Jagre was addressed to only Vaishnav Pandit and not to all of of us then in Huqmanmaah attributed to Six Master clearly state adreesed to Sangat of east.And that also of that time.

Also if some Pandit is told to not to do Pakhand or Shamming,does it means that Sikh can do Pakhand as this is only for that Pandit.

Is this not twising the logic.

And do not bring Sants or Taksal in it as they may also tell us to stay away from some veggi things also.

 

[Randip Singh]

Gurfateh

Huqamannamaha is from Ganda Singh Jis book and that is perhaps been preceded by Guru Guru Karo Janam Saverge and Masu Machchhi Ke Nera Na Jana.That is more to do with Nam Abhyas being told by Sixth Master.

And in fact it was not included by Tenth Master in Damdami Beerh.Yet it should be respected.

By the way if maas kar Murakh Jagre was addressed to only Vaishnav Pandit and not to all of of us then in Huqmanmaah attributed to Six Master clearly state adreesed to Sangat of east.And that also of that time.

Also if some Pandit is told to not to do Pakhand or Shamming,does it means that Sikh can do Pakhand as this is only for that Pandit.

Is this not twising the logic.

And do not bring Sants or Taksal in it as they may also tell us to stay away from some veggi things also.

Look.

Hukamana's were being issued left right and centre by Masands...........that is why Guru Gobind Singh ji got rid of them.............many were signing in the Guru's name.

I would not pay too much heed to Hukamnama's from those times.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Most of the Hukmanamas collected in Dr Ganda Singh's book are FALSE. What Randirp ji says si correct..anybody could falsify such hukmnamas.
2. Second reason to falsify "hukmnamas" was to justify the False bansi beign circulated..hence a FALSE letter from Bhai mani Singh to mata sunder Kaur ji that He is collecting the works of Guru Gobind Singh ji to compile the so called Dasam Granth. in this Letter Bhai mani Singh ji confesses that he has READ the TAAP Mantar to get rid of the Malaria fever. This action is HINDU ritual who beleive that Taap is a Being ( like Small pox is a DEVI Mata who needs to be appeased !!) Siksh know that fevers and small pox are VIRUS Caused diseases...not GODS. This one slip by the writer of this Letter masquarading as Bhai mani Singh reveals that he is a FRAUDSTER.
Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh
Respect Gyani Sahib Ji,

virus can never be killed by medicine but in body by some stimulant we make anti bodis to over come that.

Then coming to Bhai Bani simngh Ji can not be takne well with Nam Abhyas.When low level breath controlike Vipysana of Budhists or Kapot Leshya of Jains can stop malfunctioning of Body then Nam abhyas of us is evoloved a lot.

So yoga is being talked over here.which only Missioanries do not know in Gurmat.and thier Singh Sabh Gurudwars and schools Call for Hindu Yoga teachers.

The chickned cooked in house is like lintells.(in yoga very light food is adivised and little sleep also).But in Raj yoga or Gurmat we are fre from such things.

to much control breathing,controls energy level in our body,which if we are tension while we are sick can otherwise make our probelm verse.In stable psycho semmatic condition,we are able to let our Body gain strenght and take on anti bodies to kill virus.More study is needed and at that time such imposter wil be a scintific hero.

why is Nam being told as Medicine of all unhappines(ailment is one of the gruop)?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Sarab Rog ka Aukhad NAAM..is for SPIRITUAL....
Gurbani is NAAM..Food for the MIND/MANN/SOUL/AATMA....
That is why we EAT normal FOOD for the BODY...
From Guru nanak Ji we have had two Guru Ka Langgar..One SHABAD KA LANGGAR in the Darbar Sahib..and the Second Guru Ka Langgar of Kheer and such stuff in the Langgar hall
Scientists have discovered that MOST "diseases" of the BODY emanate from a SICK MIND?MANN....that is also why Sarab rog ka Aukhad Naam..yes we cna CURE most body diseases through GURBANI....BUT still there are soem things of teh BODY that we have to sercice OUTSIDE....such as we ahve to EAT to appease HUNGER..we have to Take Medicines to appease diseases..GURU HAR RAI JI had established and ran a very Large DWAKHANA - Pharmacy of Herbal Medicine.... WHY ?? WHY did Guru Ji....maintain a huge herbal stock..IF GURBANI dirtect from the GURU..could have cured every disease ?? The TRUTH is that GURBANI CANNOT Grow back a diabetic foot surgically removed....an arm cut off in an industrial accident....a tooth that has been pulled out by a dentist....and eye that has been blinded by glaucoma/cataract/burnt by acid..ALL these are NOT in the ambit of GURBANI and our Gurus are CLEAR about it... Small Pox/TB/Leprosy/ is NOT curable by doing paaths ONLY....lets not mislead people....GURBANI is the CURE for millions...mental as well as physical....BUT not all..its mainly for SPIRITUAL HEALTH.

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh
Das Agrees to Gyani Sahib Ji .

Anyway das has copy of letter now from Bhai Mani Singh Ji to Mata Ji.

Das will put contraversial part.

Thing here to rember that some great Sikh missionay teacher of das doubted about it said that it was writan in later Nintenth Centuuray and by Pen nib.While in that part of time no Sikh could have tried to talk illogical things else Prof Gurmukh Singh's Lahore Singh Sabha would have censured this.

But let us talk of text.

first in tranlitration.

Ek Oankar Akal Sahai
Pooj Mata Ji De Charana Par Mani Singh Ki Dandaut Bandana.
On the feet of worshipworhty/respected Mother postratte worship/bowing of Mani Singh.

Bahure Samachar Vachna Ki Idher Aun Par Sada Sarir Vayu Ka adhik Vikari Vikair Hoi Gaiya Hai.
Other news (kindly/do) read that on coming here our(my) body has become Malfunctioning of air.(Gastric Trouble or Vai as per Ayur Veda).
Suasat Nahi Sahiaya.
No longer(remained) healthy.
Tap Ki Katha Do Bar Suni.
Twice heard the story of fever/heat.
Par Mandir Ki seva Mein Koi Alku Nahi.
But in service of Darbar Sahib,there has beeen no laziness.

Das will not talk about another work of Bhai Mani Singh Ji and copies of which as old as 1738 culd be still here with us(Bhaghat Mala realted to Gurmat)one at Darbar Sahib could be lost duing 1984.

But from this textg above Bhai Mani Singh did not say at all that story made him well while he still says that he is unwell yet one the service.

Then what could be tap/ailment/bad health about which he heard twice.

Just se the lines to come.
Des Vich Khalse da Bal Chhut Gaya Hai.
In Country the force of Khalsa has been lost/detached from them.

Singh Parbatan Babana vich Ja Jai Base Hain.
Singhs have settled in hills and Jungle after going in there.

Malechhon Ki Des Mein Dohi Hai.
Filthy people have power in country.

Basti Mein Balak Juva Istari Salamat Nahi.
In Habitation Childern,youht and ladies are not safe.

Muchh Muchh kar Marde Hain.
(they) kill after cuting into pieces.

Guru Darohi Bhi Uhanan De Sang Mil Gaye Hain.
Enimies of Guru have also joined them.

Hindaliye mil Kar mukbari Karde Han.
After joining Hindliyas act as informers.

Sabhi Chak Chhod Gaye Han.
All ahve left Chak(Guru Ki Chak or Amritsar Sahib).

Mutsadi Bhag Gaye Hain.
scribes have run away.

Sade Par abi Tom Akal Ki Rachha Hai.
So far We(I) have protection of eternal on me.

Kal Ki Khabar Nahi.
no News of tommorow/no gurante of future.

Sahiban De Huqam Atal Hain.
Lord(s) orders are inrevokable.

Binod Singh De Putrele Da Hukam Sat ho Gaya Hai.
Son of Binod Singh had made orders true(he has died).

Pothiyan Jo Jhanda Singh de Hath Bheji Thin.
Books which were sent with hands of/vide Jhanda Singh.

Uuna Vich Sahiban De 303 Charitra Upakhiyan Di Pothi Jo Hai so Sihan Singh Nu Mahak vich Dena Ji.
In them Lord's 303 Charector subexplaning/Chairitra Upakhiyan's book ,which is, that should be givne to Sihan Singh in palace.

and it further continueee....


It is no where writtan that Bhai Sahib did got well after listening to any stroy or even if listening of story had anything to do with ailment of Bhai Sahib's Physical health.

Rather Taap may mean trouble over Singhs.There are three types of Tap anyway.

One more thing here could be that perhaps some Sakhi related to ailment(perhaps cure of Sixth Guru of small pox?) was listened by Bhai Sahib.That could have motivated him to take initiative.

Das hope that speell and magic issue related to this letter is sorted and if more info needed das will try to post more.But Vayu vikar is more to do with gastric trouble then say Maleriya and he did not say that he was OK but wrote that he is still unwell.There is no Tap Manter but stroy of Tap.

 

[sikh78910]

I question to all.... now if we were really supposed to eat meat, which we are not and on request i will happily post u evidence from gurbani and interpret it for you, then WHY do we not eat it in the gurudwarra? because we do paath there n the guru granth sahib is there. any TRULY religious sikh or Saint will tell you that you should not eat meat. if we are not supposed to take our shoes into the gurudwarra or eat meat there mainly because of paath then what do all u MEAT EATERS do at home? do you do paath then EAT A MEAT DINNER then do KIRTAN SOHILA afterwards. meat eating sikhs are a bunch of hyporites, get ur vitamins n supplements from vege food like the gurus did and like is served in the GURUDWARRA instead of doing what u know is wrong but do just because meat TASTES GOOD. surely if it is even a potential issue you should not risk it cos uv always got that 50% chance you COULD BE WRONG.

GODS WORTH MORE THAN THAT 50%.

 

[sikh78910]

ttha ? (Part 1)

"Everything is life! Microorganisms are in water, air etc. When you drink water, cut vegetables, or chop down wheat, you are taking the lives of living things. Is it murder and killing? Who says there is difference in life... there is killing in cutting vegetables which have a souls as with an animal."

(Left) A farmer cutting crops, (right) a butcher cutting the throat of sheep​

Everyday we kill countless organisms just through breathing or stepping, but that is much different than Kuttha. Kuttha is the meat of an animal that has been 'butchered' and then 'intentionally' eaten.

The reason why a Sikh doesn't eat meat is not related to 'ahimsaa' or "respect for all life" like the Jains. The reason is 'daya'. Mercy evaporates when we butcher and eat meat. A carrot may have life but it will never run away screaming when you go to the garden to get it. Guru Sahib is clear in Gurbani that life must sustain itself on life. There is no lack of mercy or daya (mercy) excercised when cutting a vegetable as it does not reacts to being cut. Contrast that with animals. These animals beg and cry and little calves cling to their mothers in terror when they sense they will be slaughtered. The word "gardener" has no pejorative connotation. The word "butcher" on the other hand stands for someone who has no mercy. If one's heart doesn't melt at seeing the shrieks and anguish of animals, why would it matter when a human does the same? Why is it Muslims can do Halal on humans? It's because they have so much experience with animals that the jerking, gasping of dying animals and blood is something usual for them. A butcher will have the heart of a butcher. A butcher can never be a 'Dharmi' (spiritually pious) person.

The concept of "Jhatka" as it is known today is a Hindu one borrowed from the Rajputs who still do it today and have done it for ages before the Sikhs. Proponents of this practice explain this concept as a "Singh" cutting the head of a goat with one blow while shouting a Jaikara (the cry of "Sat Sri Akal" (God is True)). But in Gurbani we are faced with the question:
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥2॥

"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing "religious" killing for meat, then what is A-dharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher? ||2||"
(Ang 1103)

"Doctors say eating meat is healthy - you get vitamins and good things - so there are benefits in eating meat, like with anything its about how much you eat."
The health aspect we all know and there are lots of resources on the Internet on this issue. One site, which highlights the main risks of eating meat, is:

http://www.healthandgoodness.com/nutritiondiet/health_risks_meat.html.
Meat is disease-ridden and is a dirty thing to eat.

Dead rotten carcasses of pigs ready to processed as meat​

Gurbani tells us:
ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

"O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating which, the body is ruined (i.e. are unhealthy), and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||"
(Ang 16)

The fact is that a human's own flesh is exactly like that of meat. Observing surgery or perusing internal medicine books, one notes that we are the same substance. That's why Guru Nanak Sahib jee has said not to hate meat. We are meat. But at the same time we cannot eat it because it would be like eating a dead body. It's foul and really unthinkable.

 

[sikh78910]

now people will u read that n tell me that that within itslef does not make a killer argument!!! hehe. if anyone eats meat after that, ur just sick n like your KFC wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much!!

 

[sikh78910]

there is also a page one of this which i have not added, heres the link though Panthic Weekly: What is Kuttha? (Part 1)

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

This Article is a "Gem" whcih is being used by me on every Forum I write on..it says exactly what i have been propogating for decades - SIKHISM and GURMATT has nothing whatsoever to do with DIET. Guru nanak ji used such "harsh" language as FOOLS - MOORAKH to drive home His point..we must be real hard-core FOOLS not to bother about what our Guru Nanak ji Says.
Eat or dotn eat--just dont bring in Gurmatt/gurbani to back YOU up.
Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Lionchild]

ttha ? (Part 1)

"Everything is life! Microorganisms are in water, air etc. When you drink water, cut vegetables, or chop down wheat, you are taking the lives of living things. Is it murder and killing? Who says there is difference in life... there is killing in cutting vegetables which have a souls as with an animal."

(Left) A farmer cutting crops, (right) a butcher cutting the throat of sheep​

Everyday we kill countless organisms just through breathing or stepping, but that is much different than Kuttha. Kuttha is the meat of an animal that has been 'butchered' and then 'intentionally' eaten.

The reason why a Sikh doesn't eat meat is not related to 'ahimsaa' or "respect for all life" like the Jains. The reason is 'daya'. Mercy evaporates when we butcher and eat meat. A carrot may have life but it will never run away screaming when you go to the garden to get it. Guru Sahib is clear in Gurbani that life must sustain itself on life. There is no lack of mercy or daya (mercy) excercised when cutting a vegetable as it does not reacts to being cut. Contrast that with animals. These animals beg and cry and little calves cling to their mothers in terror when they sense they will be slaughtered. The word "gardener" has no pejorative connotation. The word "butcher" on the other hand stands for someone who has no mercy. If one's heart doesn't melt at seeing the shrieks and anguish of animals, why would it matter when a human does the same? Why is it Muslims can do Halal on humans? It's because they have so much experience with animals that the jerking, gasping of dying animals and blood is something usual for them. A butcher will have the heart of a butcher. A butcher can never be a 'Dharmi' (spiritually pious) person.

The concept of "Jhatka" as it is known today is a Hindu one borrowed from the Rajputs who still do it today and have done it for ages before the Sikhs. Proponents of this practice explain this concept as a "Singh" cutting the head of a goat with one blow while shouting a Jaikara (the cry of "Sat Sri Akal" (God is True)). But in Gurbani we are faced with the question:
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥2॥

"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing "religious" killing for meat, then what is A-dharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher? ||2||"
(Ang 1103)

"Doctors say eating meat is healthy - you get vitamins and good things - so there are benefits in eating meat, like with anything its about how much you eat."
The health aspect we all know and there are lots of resources on the Internet on this issue. One site, which highlights the main risks of eating meat, is:

http://www.healthandgoodness.com/nutritiondiet/health_risks_meat.html.
Meat is disease-ridden and is a dirty thing to eat.

Dead rotten carcasses of pigs ready to processed as meat​

Gurbani tells us:
ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

"O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating which, the body is ruined (i.e. are unhealthy), and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||"
(Ang 16)

The fact is that a human's own flesh is exactly like that of meat. Observing surgery or perusing internal medicine books, one notes that we are the same substance. That's why Guru Nanak Sahib jee has said not to hate meat. We are meat. But at the same time we cannot eat it because it would be like eating a dead body. It's foul and really unthinkable.

Cute. You failedto realize that not all placed in the world have the same access to vegatables or races that have different dietery needs. Not that it matters how one eats, have sex, and what color they are. Get over it, if you don't want to eat meat, then don't, just don't cry wolf to everyone else about it.

 

[Akashdeep Singh]

Khalsa Ji,

Some of the Gurbani has been misreprented by people at various forums by just picking a few incomplete lines and then doing word to word translation to English without explaining properly (thanks to a friend of mine for noting this and bring to notice). I keep re-iterating that without knowing the Gurbani related history and understanding the context in which it was said, to whom it was said and in what conditions it is not possible to understanding Gurbani.

At many places the following lines have been presented in the argument against meat eating. In reality, they are not refering to meat eating.

1. ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ
2. ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਿਹ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
3. ਬੇਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਮੀਠੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਜੀਆਂ ਕੁਹਤ ਨ ਸੰਗੈ ਪਰਾਣੀ ॥
4. ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਿਹ ਚਲਿਹ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥

Now please note where these lines were said and in what context. To get the whole picture yours truly is also including the lines adjacent to the above lines in Gurbani in the form of paragraphs rather than picking just a line or two.

• The 1st line above has been taken from: -

ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਪਡੀਆ ਕਵਨ ਕੁਮਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ ਬੂਡਹੁਗੇ ਪਰਵਾਰ ਸਕਲ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਭਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਗੁਨੁ ਖਰ ਚੰਦਨ ਜਸ ਭਾਰਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥ਮਨ ਕੇ ਅੰਧੇ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝਹੁ ਕਾਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਵਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਨ ਬਿਦਿਆ ਬੇਚਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਈ ॥੩॥ ਨਾਰਦ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਆਸੁ ਕਹਤ ਹੈ ਸੁਕ ਕਉ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਮਿ ਛੂਟਹੁ ਨਾਹਿ ਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1102-1103}

At this place Bhagat Kabir was questioning the pandits at the place near Kashi where there was tradtion of performing the sacrifices of animals and also of humans at one point of time. In addition to challenging their shallow knowledge, Kabir is challenging the pandits here of their dual-policies as well. He is telling them "On one hand you people(the pandits) call the meat-sellers as sinnners and on the other hand you yourself are performing the "bali" (sacrifice of animal or human). How can you have such dual policies?. If you can perform the "bali and yet like to be called as best sages then how can the meat-sellers be sinners??"

To me this agrument of Bhagat Kabir ji seems more like ridiculing the hypocrisies of the pandits than ridiculing the meat eater. One has to also understand where,with whom and in what context the speaker was speaking. This talk from Kabir ji was related to the pandits of Kashi, their shallow knowledge, bali and hypocrisies. Not about eating or not-eating meat.
​

• The 2nd line above has been taken from: -

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਿਹ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥ ਅਵਿਰ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥{ਪੰਨਾ 140}

These lines have been said in context to those who do "namaaj" but whose hearts are not clear and they trouble other humans. The meaning here is,

"Its believed that if the jama (worn clothes) get tarnished with blood one cannot do namaaj. How can be those people untarnished (pure) who earn by illegitimate means and oppress others humans?. O Nanak! remember the Almighty with a pure heart all other external showcasing is useless"

In Punjabi, metaphorically speaking we say, "Mera khoon na choos"- it means "Do not irritate/trouble me". Similarly, the phrase in Gurbani above is a metaphorical use of the phrase "jo ruth peevehi maanusaa"
​

• The 3rd line above has been taken from:-

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਧੋਤੀ ਖੋਲਿ ਵਿਛਾਏ ਹੇਠਿ ॥ ਗਰਧਪ ਵਾਂਗੂ ਲਾਹੇ ਪੇਟਿ ॥੧॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਰਤੂਤੀ ਮੁਕਿਤ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਮੁਕਿਤ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਪੂਜਾ ਤਿਲਕ ਕਰਤ ਇਸਨਾਨ ॥ ਛੁਰੀ ਕਾਢਿ ਲੇਵੈ ਹਿਥ ਦਾਨਾ ॥੨॥ ਬੇਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਮੀਠੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਜੀਆਂ ਕੁਹਤ ਨ ਸੰਗੈ ਪਰਾਣੀ ॥੩॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੈ ॥ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਬ ਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥੪॥੧੦੭॥{ਪੰਨਾ 201}

This talk is on the pandits who eat from their "yajmaan" (the host or the follower?). The meaning is -

"The pandits go to the home of their followers/hosts and open half of their "dhoti" (cloth worn for lower half of body) and spread it on the ground and sit and eat there like a donkey. He applies "tilak" (mark on forehead) and takes bath and perform "pooja" (a form of worshipping where the idols etc. are worshipped).

He eats from his host but does not think once while betraying the same host by misguiding him by telling lies about heaven and hell and frightening them. From his mouth, the pandit pretends speaking very sweet and speaks of vedas, but from the inside he is a cheat and never feels ashamed of betraying his host.

O Nanak! the one who has been blessed by the Almighty that person remembers the Almighty from his heart"
​

• The 4rth line above has been taken from:-

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
ਸਿਭ ਰਸ ਮਿਠ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਾਲੋਣੇ ॥ ਖਟ ਤੁਰਸੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਮਾਰਣ ਨਾਦ ਕੀਏ ॥
ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਭਾਉ ਏਕੁ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਨਦਿਰ ਕਰੇਇ ॥੧॥ ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਿਹ ਚਲਿਹ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 16-17}

This whole para is metaphorical and is telling what is the ideal food for thought. Here the remembrance of Almighty is compared with all the tastes of the world. Its mentioned that living life according to Gurus knowledge you feel like having all the dishes and then later it is mentioned that other "dishes" which case disease of the body and mind are bad. What could be other (antonym) of "Guru's Knowledge"? -clearly, "manmatt". I see no reference to meat eating here.

Translation :-
"If mind gets involved in the remembrance of the Almighty, then it is like all the sweet dishes of the world. If the conscience becomes one with the Almighty, then it is like salty dish. Speaking of the knowledge of the Guru from mouth is like a sour dish. The appreciation of Almighty and singing of his orders is like spices. Uniform love for Almighty is like dishes of various tastes that you can think of. But this great gift is only won by those who get blessings of the Almighty. Oh Beloved! those feedings cause destruction whose eating causes diseases in the body and mind."

​

And now please note the lines from Gurbani that have been said various times and still people fail to understand

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥
ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥

O Pandit, you do not know where did flesh originate! It is water where life originated and it is water that sustains all life. It is water that produces grains, sugarcane, cotton and all forms of life.
AGGS, M 1, p 1289.*

ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥

Only fools quarrel over the partaking of flesh, as they do not have knowledge and understanding of the subjectwhat is flesh and what is vegetable? Why the eating of one is sin, not the eating of the other as both are obtained from living things? *

* These 2 translations are courtsey of Dr. Baldev Singh ji.

Why is it so hard to understand? Gurbani is very clear about this issue. Nobody will be a sinner just because he/she ate meat. Water is the source of life on this earth and you drink water everyday, it also has life. Vegetation also has life. If you are thinking one life is greater then other then you are wrong. Also, Gurbani does not tell you that by eating meat you will become a better Sikh. It clearly says that lust of anything is wrong. The summary is very simple - meat eating is neither encouraged nor discouraged in Sikhism. If you need it, eat it. If you feel bad eating it, just don't eat it but don't call others as less Sikhs. Just by eating or not-eating meat you cannot be one with the Akaal.



Copyright: Please do not pick the translation lines from here and present them in distorted form on other forums. Feel free to use them if you keep the words intact, also drop me note where you will be using them.

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep

 

[kds1980]

now people will u read that n tell me that that within itslef does not make a killer argument!!! hehe. if anyone eats meat after that, ur just sick n like your KFC wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much!!

the article you have posted is from akj site who just present their own mat as gurmat.the article is saying that kutha means killed meat take a look what kutha really means
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE KUTTHA MEAT ARGUMENT â€" KUTTHA MEANS ALL MEAT OR DOES IT?

What is Kuttha meat?

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."
Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

In the Rehit Marayada ( http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:
The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided
1. Dishonouring the hair;
2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha);
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse
4. Using tobacco.
Sikh Rehit Maryada


There have been some quarters who have been at pains to create confusion over the word Kuttha. There is no confusion over this word, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is proof of this.
In the following Ang Guru Nanak condemns Brahmins, who serve their Muslim rulers stating they are acting like pseudo-Muslims. In this Ang there is a line which clearly refers to Kuttha as meat which has had Muslim prayers read over it. Kuttha, however, can meat any meat that is killed in a ritualistic manner.

mehlaa 1.
maanas khaanay karahi nivaaj
.
chhuree vagaa-in tin gal taag.
tin ghar barahman pooreh naad.
unHaa bhe aavahi o-ee saad.
koorhee raas koorhaa vaapaar.
koorh bol karahi aahaar.
saram Dharam kaa dayraa door.
naanak koorh rahi-aa bharpoor.
mathai tikaa tayrh Dhotee kakhaa-ee.
hath chhuree jagat kaasaa-ee.
neel vastar pahir hoveh parvaan.
malaychh Dhaan lay poojeh puraan.
abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa.
cha-ukay upar kisai na jaanaa.
day kai cha-ukaa kadhee kaar.
upar aa-ay baithay koorhi-aar.
mat bhitai vay mat bhitai.
ih ann asaadaa fitai.
tan fitai fayrh karayn.
man joothai chulee bharayn.
kaho naanak sach Dhi-aa-ee-ai.
such hovai taa sach paa-ee-ai.

First Mehl:
The man-eaters say their prayers.
Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.
In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.
They too have the same taste.
False is their capital, and false is their trade.
Speaking falsehood, they take their food.
The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.
O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood. The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;
in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!
Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.
Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.
They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,
but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.
They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.
The false come and sit within them.
They cry out, "Do not touch our food,
this food of ours will be polluted!
But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.
With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.
Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord.
If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


Hence, it is clear that Kutha does not mean all meat at all, it me

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

also please tell me why the concept of daya vanishes when it comes to milk.
basically we just steal milk from animals.a cow is tied in shed for whole of its
life injected with hormones and forced to produce as much milk as she can
but 99% of veggies are are not not ready to give up milk and milk products.

if you want to show real daya towards animal then please be veggie like PETA
no meat,no milk,no wool.no leather,no honey and animal products.
or you are just a hypocrite.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

ttha ? (Part 1)

"Everything is life! Microorganisms are in water, air etc. When you drink water, cut vegetables, or chop down wheat, you are taking the lives of living things. Is it murder and killing? Who says there is difference in life... there is killing in cutting vegetables which have a souls as with an animal."

(Left) A farmer cutting crops, (right) a butcher cutting the throat of sheep​

Everyday we kill countless organisms just through breathing or stepping, but that is much different than Kuttha. Kuttha is the meat of an animal that has been 'butchered' and then 'intentionally' eaten.

The reason why a Sikh doesn't eat meat is not related to 'ahimsaa' or "respect for all life" like the Jains. The reason is 'daya'. Mercy evaporates when we butcher and eat meat. A carrot may have life but it will never run away screaming when you go to the garden to get it. Guru Sahib is clear in Gurbani that life must sustain itself on life. There is no lack of mercy or daya (mercy) excercised when cutting a vegetable as it does not reacts to being cut. Contrast that with animals. These animals beg and cry and little calves cling to their mothers in terror when they sense they will be slaughtered. The word "gardener" has no pejorative connotation. The word "butcher" on the other hand stands for someone who has no mercy. If one's heart doesn't melt at seeing the shrieks and anguish of animals, why would it matter when a human does the same? Why is it Muslims can do Halal on humans? It's because they have so much experience with animals that the jerking, gasping of dying animals and blood is something usual for them. A butcher will have the heart of a butcher. A butcher can never be a 'Dharmi' (spiritually pious) person.

The concept of "Jhatka" as it is known today is a Hindu one borrowed from the Rajputs who still do it today and have done it for ages before the Sikhs. Proponents of this practice explain this concept as a "Singh" cutting the head of a goat with one blow while shouting a Jaikara (the cry of "Sat Sri Akal" (God is True)). But in Gurbani we are faced with the question:
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥2॥

"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing "religious" killing for meat, then what is A-dharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher? ||2||"
(Ang 1103)

"Doctors say eating meat is healthy - you get vitamins and good things - so there are benefits in eating meat, like with anything its about how much you eat."
The health aspect we all know and there are lots of resources on the Internet on this issue. One site, which highlights the main risks of eating meat, is:

http://www.healthandgoodness.com/nutritiondiet/health_risks_meat.html.
Meat is disease-ridden and is a dirty thing to eat.

Dead rotten carcasses of pigs ready to processed as meat​

Gurbani tells us:
ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

"O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating which, the body is ruined (i.e. are unhealthy), and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||"
(Ang 16)

The fact is that a human's own flesh is exactly like that of meat. Observing surgery or perusing internal medicine books, one notes that we are the same substance. That's why Guru Nanak Sahib jee has said not to hate meat. We are meat. But at the same time we cannot eat it because it would be like eating a dead body. It's foul and really unthinkable.

Bhai Das has seen slughet houses and himslef has done Jhataka also.We can keep meat without refirgration in Indian summer for about a day and about 2 day in winter.

What all you ahve shown and misinterpreted does not make any sense.True Sikh is above emotions.do not try to make us Vaishanv who do Bhav Bhagti or emotional devotion.Das feels like to eat pigs in the picture.

 

[Randip Singh]

Sikh78910 this site is a site for grown ups, so please stop using teeny boppy language and debate like a civilised human being.

Let us continue:

I question to all.... now if we were really supposed to eat meat, which we are not and on request i will happily post u evidence from gurbani and interpret it for you, then WHY do we not eat it in the gurudwarra?.

You do not understand the basic's of Sikhism, read what the basics of langaar are about. Read below:

The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat together in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.

because we do paath there n the guru granth sahib is there. any TRULY religious sikh or Saint will tell you that you should not eat meat. if we are not supposed to take our shoes into the gurudwarra or eat meat there mainly because of paath then what do all u MEAT EATERS do at home?

What Saints? What Sikh? Some of the Guru's ate meat some did not. Even vegetarians agree that Guru Nanak ate meat at Kurukshetra, however they come up with a half backed concocted Hindu Vaishnav explanation for it.

The Saints you refer to usually AKJ, GNNSJ, Namdhari's have ties with Hindu Vaishnavism. Even the DT tell's people to respect the black cow (a Hindu Vaiashnav custom). There are links with these Sant Mat organisations and Vaishnav practices from the 1800's…..I can provide evidence. This Vaishnav practice as infected Sikhism………………where there was no division, people like you and your ilk who follow this practice have created it.

do you do paath then EAT A MEAT DINNER then do KIRTAN SOHILA afterwards. meat eating sikhs are a bunch of hyporites, get ur vitamins n supplements from vege food like the gurus did and

The Guru's were not vegetarians, this much we know is clear. Even their descendents today the Bedi's and Sodhi's are not vegetarian, so where you have got this information from is beyond me. Show me verifiable evidence the Guru's were vegetarian, then we will believe you.

like is served in the GURUDWARRA instead of doing what u know is wrong but do just because meat TASTES GOOD.

Taste argument is irrelevant. I love white channay and kheer and will eat that over any meat any day. I love the taste…………so maybe I should stop eating that vegetarian food?

Just as your argument is flawed from the beginning so is your statement.

surely if it is even a potential issue you should not risk it cos uv always got that 50% chance you COULD BE WRONG.

GODS WORTH MORE THAN THAT 50%

Another irrelevant point.

Bani tells us plants suffer from pain……so you must be 100% wrong compared to my 50%: Page 143

mehlaa 1.​

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.​

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji​

Also we can be incarnated directly from plant to human: page 176

In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life


So it must follow we are eating something (a plant) that is one incarnation away from human life?

Surely that is a massive sin?

People like you do not understand the basics of spirituality. Guruji travelled thousands of miles, fought many battles, discoursed with the wisest, sacrificed their live and that of their children, endured hardships, undersstood the nature of the Universe, showed us how to live our lives, uplifted the poor, created equality, freeed women from bondage................and for what purpose? According to you to tell us whether we could eat KFC or not?

Not is only what you say absured, but a slap in the face for Guruji!!! You denigrate the Sri Guru GRanth Sahib ji to a cheap restraunt menu. No wonder outsiders call us Sikh's think. We cannot even see the jewel in our midest without seeing it as a drumstick or a carrot!! Trully FOOLS!!!

 

[Randip Singh]

Khalsa Ji,

Some of the Gurbani has been misreprented by people at various forums by just picking a few incomplete lines and then doing word to word translation to English without explaining properly (thanks to a friend of mine for noting this and bring to notice). I keep re-iterating that without knowing the Gurbani related history and understanding the context in which it was said, to whom it was said and in what conditions it is not possible to understanding Gurbani.

At many places the following lines have been presented in the argument against meat eating. In reality, they are not refering to meat eating.

1. ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ
2. ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਿਹ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
3. ਬੇਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਮੀਠੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਜੀਆਂ ਕੁਹਤ ਨ ਸੰਗੈ ਪਰਾਣੀ ॥
4. ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਿਹ ਚਲਿਹ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥

Now please note where these lines were said and in what context. To get the whole picture yours truly is also including the lines adjacent to the above lines in Gurbani in the form of paragraphs rather than picking just a line or two.

• The 1st line above has been taken from: -

ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਪਡੀਆ ਕਵਨ ਕੁਮਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ ਬੂਡਹੁਗੇ ਪਰਵਾਰ ਸਕਲ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਭਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਗੁਨੁ ਖਰ ਚੰਦਨ ਜਸ ਭਾਰਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥ਮਨ ਕੇ ਅੰਧੇ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝਹੁ ਕਾਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਵਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਨ ਬਿਦਿਆ ਬੇਚਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਈ ॥੩॥ ਨਾਰਦ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਆਸੁ ਕਹਤ ਹੈ ਸੁਕ ਕਉ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਮਿ ਛੂਟਹੁ ਨਾਹਿ ਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1102-1103}​

At this place Bhagat Kabir was questioning the pandits at the place near Kashi where there was tradtion of performing the sacrifices of animals and also of humans at one point of time. In addition to challenging their shallow knowledge, Kabir is challenging the pandits here of their dual-policies as well. He is telling them "On one hand you people(the pandits) call the meat-sellers as sinnners and on the other hand you yourself are performing the "bali" (sacrifice of animal or human). How can you have such dual policies?. If you can perform the "bali and yet like to be called as best sages then how can the meat-sellers be sinners??"​

To me this agrument of Bhagat Kabir ji seems more like ridiculing the hypocrisies of the pandits than ridiculing the meat eater. One has to also understand where,with whom and in what context the speaker was speaking. This talk from Kabir ji was related to the pandits of Kashi, their shallow knowledge, bali and hypocrisies. Not about eating or not-eating meat.​

• The 2nd line above has been taken from: -

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਿਹ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥ ​

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥ ਅਵਿਰ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥{ਪੰਨਾ 140}​

These lines have been said in context to those who do "namaaj" but whose hearts are not clear and they trouble other humans. The meaning here is,​

"Its believed that if the jama (worn clothes) get tarnished with blood one cannot do namaaj. How can be those people untarnished (pure) who earn by illegitimate means and oppress others humans?. O Nanak! remember the Almighty with a pure heart all other external showcasing is useless" ​

In Punjabi, metaphorically speaking we say, "Mera khoon na choos"- it means "Do not irritate/trouble me". Similarly, the phrase in Gurbani above is a metaphorical use of the phrase "jo ruth peevehi maanusaa"​

• The 3rd line above has been taken from:-

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਧੋਤੀ ਖੋਲਿ ਵਿਛਾਏ ਹੇਠਿ ॥ ਗਰਧਪ ਵਾਂਗੂ ਲਾਹੇ ਪੇਟਿ ॥੧॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਰਤੂਤੀ ਮੁਕਿਤ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਮੁਕਿਤ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਪੂਜਾ ਤਿਲਕ ਕਰਤ ਇਸਨਾਨ ॥ ਛੁਰੀ ਕਾਢਿ ਲੇਵੈ ਹਿਥ ਦਾਨਾ ॥੨॥ ਬੇਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਮੀਠੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ ਜੀਆਂ ਕੁਹਤ ਨ ਸੰਗੈ ਪਰਾਣੀ ॥੩॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੈ ॥ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਬ ਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥੪॥੧੦੭॥{ਪੰਨਾ 201}​

This talk is on the pandits who eat from their "yajmaan" (the host or the follower?). The meaning is -​

"The pandits go to the home of their followers/hosts and open half of their "dhoti" (cloth worn for lower half of body) and spread it on the ground and sit and eat there like a donkey. He applies "tilak" (mark on forehead) and takes bath and perform "pooja" (a form of worshipping where the idols etc. are worshipped). ​

He eats from his host but does not think once while betraying the same host by misguiding him by telling lies about heaven and hell and frightening them. From his mouth, the pandit pretends speaking very sweet and speaks of vedas, but from the inside he is a cheat and never feels ashamed of betraying his host. ​

O Nanak! the one who has been blessed by the Almighty that person remembers the Almighty from his heart" ​

• The 4rth line above has been taken from:-

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ​

ਸਿਭ ਰਸ ਮਿਠ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਾਲੋਣੇ ॥ ਖਟ ਤੁਰਸੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਮਾਰਣ ਨਾਦ ਕੀਏ ॥ ​

ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਭਾਉ ਏਕੁ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਨਦਿਰ ਕਰੇਇ ॥੧॥ ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ​

ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਿਹ ਚਲਿਹ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 16-17}​

This whole para is metaphorical and is telling what is the ideal food for thought. Here the remembrance of Almighty is compared with all the tastes of the world. Its mentioned that living life according to Gurus knowledge you feel like having all the dishes and then later it is mentioned that other "dishes" which case disease of the body and mind are bad. What could be other (antonym) of "Guru's Knowledge"? -clearly, "manmatt". I see no reference to meat eating here.​

Translation :-​

"If mind gets involved in the remembrance of the Almighty, then it is like all the sweet dishes of the world. If the conscience becomes one with the Almighty, then it is like salty dish. Speaking of the knowledge of the Guru from mouth is like a sour dish. The appreciation of Almighty and singing of his orders is like spices. Uniform love for Almighty is like dishes of various tastes that you can think of. But this great gift is only won by those who get blessings of the Almighty. Oh Beloved! those feedings cause destruction whose eating causes diseases in the body and mind."​

And now please note the lines from Gurbani that have been said various times and still people fail to understand

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥
ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥

O Pandit, you do not know where did flesh originate! It is water where life originated and it is water that sustains all life. It is water that produces grains, sugarcane, cotton and all forms of life.
AGGS, M 1, p 1289.*

ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥

Only fools quarrel over the partaking of flesh, as they do not have knowledge and understanding of the subjectwhat is flesh and what is vegetable? Why the eating of one is sin, not the eating of the other as both are obtained from living things? *

* These 2 translations are courtsey of Dr. Baldev Singh ji.

Why is it so hard to understand? Gurbani is very clear about this issue. Nobody will be a sinner just because he/she ate meat. Water is the source of life on this earth and you drink water everyday, it also has life. Vegetation also has life. If you are thinking one life is greater then other then you are wrong. Also, Gurbani does not tell you that by eating meat you will become a better Sikh. It clearly says that lust of anything is wrong. The summary is very simple - meat eating is neither encouraged nor discouraged in Sikhism. If you need it, eat it. If you feel bad eating it, just don't eat it but don't call others as less Sikhs. Just by eating or not-eating meat you cannot be one with the Akaal.



Copyright: Please do not pick the translation lines from here and present them in distorted form on other forums. Feel free to use them if you keep the words intact, also drop me note where you will be using them.

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep

Excellent work brother................it is high time Sikh's (Vege or non vege) took back Bani from these distortionists who at every turn see a KFC sign.

These Moorakh's are distorting Bani for their own ends. How sad is that.

Keep up the good work and expose the distortionists.

 

[Randip Singh]

ttha ? (Part 1)http://www.panthic.org/news/129/ARTICLE/2910/2006-11-22.html

"Everything is life! Microorganisms are in water, air etc. When you drink water, cut vegetables, or chop down wheat, you are taking the lives of living things. Is it murder and killing? Who says there is difference in life... there is killing in cutting vegetables which have a souls as with an animal."

Nonsense.

Bani tells us otherwise:

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.​

ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay. ​

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji​

So according to Bani we are one level away from a plant or rock or animal. Each carries exactly same amount of Karma when we kill it.

According to Bani plants suffer pain. Maybe you don't believe Bani?

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.​

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.​

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji​

​

Everyday we kill countless organisms just through breathing or stepping, but that is much different than Kuttha. Kuttha is the meat of an animal that has been 'butchered' and then 'intentionally' eaten.

Nonsense.

Kutthaa is sacrificed meat.

What is Kuttha meat?

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."
Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states: ​

The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided
1. Dishonouring the hair;
2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha);
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse
4. Using tobacco.​

Sikh Rehit Maryada​

There have been some quarters who have been at pains to create confusion over the word Kuttha. There is no confusion over this word, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is proof of this.
In the following Ang Guru Nanak condemns Brahmins, who serve their Muslim rulers stating they are acting like pseudo-Muslims. In this Ang there is a line which clearly refers to Kuttha as meat which has had Muslim prayers read over it. Kuttha, however, can meat any meat that is killed in a ritualistic manner.

mehlaa 1. ​

maanas khaanay karahi nivaaj.
chhuree vagaa-in tin gal taag.
tin ghar barahman pooreh naad.
unHaa bhe aavahi o-ee saad.
koorhee raas koorhaa vaapaar.
koorh bol karahi aahaar.
saram Dharam kaa dayraa door.
naanak koorh rahi-aa bharpoor.
mathai tikaa tayrh Dhotee kakhaa-ee.
hath chhuree jagat kaasaa-ee.
neel vastar pahir hoveh parvaan.
malaychh Dhaan lay poojeh puraan.
abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa.
cha-ukay upar kisai na jaanaa.
day kai cha-ukaa kadhee kaar.
upar aa-ay baithay koorhi-aar.
mat bhitai vay mat bhitai.
ih ann asaadaa fitai.
tan fitai fayrh karayn.
man joothai chulee bharayn.
kaho naanak sach Dhi-aa-ee-ai.
such hovai taa sach paa-ee-ai. ​

​

First Mehl:
The man-eaters say their prayers.
Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.
In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.
They too have the same taste.
False is their capital, and false is their trade.
Speaking falsehood, they take their food.
The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.
O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood. The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;
in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!
Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.
Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.
They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,
but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.
They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.
The false come and sit within them.
They cry out, "Do not touch our food,
this food of ours will be polluted!
But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.
With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.
Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord.
If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord. ​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji​

Hence, it is clear that Kutha does not mean all meat at all, it means specifically Halal Meat, but in the wider context it can mean meat that is ritually slaughtered.


I can provide more quotes from Bani to back this up.

The reason why a Sikh doesn't eat meat is not related to 'ahimsaa' or "respect for all life" like the Jains. The reason is 'daya'. Mercy evaporates when we butcher and eat meat. A carrot may have life but it will never run away screaming when you go to the garden to get it. Guru Sahib is clear in Gurbani that life must sustain itself on life. There is no lack of mercy or daya (mercy) excercised when cutting a vegetable as it does not reacts to being cut. Contrast that with animals. These animals beg and cry and little calves cling to their mothers in terror when they sense they will be slaughtered. The word "gardener" has no pejorative connotation. The word "butcher" on the other hand stands for someone who has no mercy. ​

​

​

Nonsense….Bani above says:​

​

After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out​

​

​

​

If one's heart doesn't melt at seeing the shrieks and anguish of animals, why would it matter when a human does the same? Why is it Muslims can do Halal on humans? It's because they have so much experience with animals that the jerking, gasping of dying animals and blood is something usual for them. A butcher will have the heart of a butcher. A butcher can never be a 'Dharmi' (spiritually pious) person. ​

​

Absolute and utter Rubbish!!

Sadana )A butcher) has shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. You are contradicting Bani with this startement. Maybe you know better than Bani?

Maybe Sadana a BUTCHER's Bani should be removed. Maybe Sheikh Farid's Bani too……who ate meat?

Or Ravidas who killed animals for its hide?

The concept of "Jhatka" as it is known today is a Hindu one borrowed from the Rajputs who still do it today and have done it for ages before the Sikhs. Proponents of this practice explain this concept as a "Singh" cutting the head of a goat with one blow while shouting a Jaikara (the cry of "Sat Sri Akal" (God is True)). But in Gurbani we are faced with the question:

Nonsense.

The Cult of Hindu Vaishnavism that is infecting Sikhism is from Hinduism. In any case this is irrelevant.

1) The name Singh is borrowed from Rajputs.

2) Keeping of long hair borrowed from Rajputs.
3) Shastarvidya - Borrowed from Rajputs.

4) Keeping a Kirpan - Borrowed from Rajputs.

5) Being armed at all times - borrowed from Rajputs.

I suggest you drop the above 5 customs too.

"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing "religious" killing for meat, then what is A-dharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher? ||2||"
(Ang 1103)

A Mistranslation and misrepresentation. Classically done by Sant Maat and distortionists to push a Hindu Vaishnav agenda:

Here is the entire shabad, Page 1102:

raag maaroo banee kabeer jee-o kee
Raag Maaroo, The Word Of Kabeer Jee:
ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
padee-aa kavan kumat tum laagay.
O Pandit, O religious scholar, in what foul thoughts are you engaged?
bood-hugay parvaar sakal si-o raam na japahu abhaagay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
You shall be drowned, along with your family, if you do not meditate on the Lord, you unfortunate person. ||1||Pause||
bayd puraan parhay kaa ki-aa gun khar chandan jas bhaaraa.
What is the use of reading the Vedas and the Puraanas? It is like loading a donkey with sandalwood.


raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee kaisay utras paaraa. ||1||
You do not know the exalted state of the Lord's Name; how will you ever cross over? ||1||
jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?
aapas ka-o munivar kar thaapahu kaa ka-o kahhu kasaa-ee. ||2||
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||
man kay anDhay aap na boojhhu kaahi bujhaavahu bhaa-ee.
You are blind in your mind, and do not understand your own self; how can you make others understand, O brother?
maa-i-aa kaaran bidi-aa baychahu janam abirathaa jaa-ee. ||3||
For the sake of Maya and money, you sell knowledge; your life is totally worthless. ||3||
naarad bachan bi-aas kahat hai suk ka-o poochhahu jaa-ee.
Naarad and Vyaasa say these things; go and ask Suk Dayv as well.
kahi kabeer raamai ram chhootahu naahi ta booday bhaa-ee. ||4||1||
Says Kabeer, chanting the Lord's Name, you shall be saved; otherwise, you shall drown, brother. ||4||1||

baneh basay ki-o paa-ee-ai ja-o la-o manhu na tajeh bikaar.
Living in the forest, how will you find Him? Not until you remove corruption from your mind.
jih ghar ban samsar kee-aa tay pooray sansaar. ||1||
Those who look alike upon home and forest, are the most perfect people in the world. ||1||
saar sukh paa-ee-ai raamaa.
You shall find real peace in the Lord,
rang ravhu aatmai raam. ||1|| rahaa-o.
if you lovingly dwell on the Lord within your being. ||1||Pause||
jataa bhasam laypan kee-aa kahaa gufaa meh baas.
What is the use of wearing matted hair, smearing the body with ashes, and living in a cave?
man jeetay jag jeeti-aa jaaN tay bikhi-aa tay ho-ay udaas. ||2||
Conquering the mind, one conquers the world, and then remains detached from corruption. ||2||
anjan day-ay sabhai ko-ee tuk chaahan maahi bidaan.
They all apply make-up to their eyes; there is little difference between their objectives.
gi-aan anjan jih paa-i-aa tay lo-in parvaan. ||3||
But those eyes, to which the ointment of spiritual wisdom is applied, are approved and supreme. ||3||
kahi kabeer ab jaani-aa gur gi-aan dee-aa samjhaa-ay.
Says Kabeer, now I know my Lord; the Guru has blessed me with spiritual wisdom.
antargat har bhayti-aa ab mayraa man kathoo na jaa-ay. ||4||2||
I have met the Lord, and I am emancipated within; now, my mind does not wander at all. ||4||2||
riDh siDh jaa ka-o furee tab kaahoo si-o ki-aa kaaj.
You have riches and miraculous spiritual powers; so what business do you have with anyone else?
tayray kahnay kee gat ki-aa kaha-o mai bolat hee bad laaj. ||1||
What should I say about the reality of your talk? I am embarrassed even to speak to you. ||1||
raam jih paa-i-aa raam.
One who has found the Lord,
tay bhaveh na baarai baar. ||1|| rahaa-o.
does not wander from door to door. ||1||Pause||
jhoothaa jag dahkai ghanaa din du-ay bartan kee aas.
The false world wanders all around, in hopes of finding wealth to use for a few days.
raam udak jih jan pee-aa tihi bahur na bha-ee pi-aas. ||2||
That humble being, who drinks in the Lord's water, never becomes thirsty again. ||2||
gur parsaad jih boojhi-aa aasaa tay bha-i-aa niraas.
Whoever understands, by Guru's Grace, becomes free of hope in the midst of hope.
sabh sach nadree aa-i-aa ja-o aatam bha-i-aa udaas. ||3||
One comes to see the Lord everywhere, when the soul becomes detached. ||3||
raam naam ras chaakhi-aa har naamaa har taar.
I have tasted the sublime essence of the Lord's Name; the Lord's Name carries everyone across.
kaho kabeer kanchan bha-i-aa bharam ga-i-aa samudrai paar. ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, I have become like gold; doubt is dispelled, and I have crossed over the world-ocean. ||4||3||
udak samund salal kee saakhi-aa nadee tarang samaavhigay.
Like drops of water in the water of the ocean, and like waves in the stream, I merge in the Lord.
sunneh sunn mili-aa samadrasee pavan roop ho-ay jaavhigay. ||1||
Merging my being into the Absolute Being of God, I have become impartial and transparent, like the air. ||1||
bahur ham kaahay aavhigay.
Why should I come into the world again?
aavan jaanaa hukam tisai kaa hukmai bujh samaavhigay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Coming and going is by the Hukam of His Command; realizing His Hukam, I shall merge in Him. ||1||Pause||
jab chookai panch Dhaat kee rachnaa aisay bharam chukaavhigay.
When the body, formed of the five elements, perishes, then any such doubts shall end.
darsan chhod bha-ay samadrasee ayko naam Dhi-aavhigay. ||2||
Giving up the different schools of philosophy, I look upon all equally; I meditate only on the One Name. ||2||
jit ham laa-ay {censored} hee laagay taisay karam kamaavhigay.
Whatever I am attached to, to that I am attached; such are the deeds I do.
har jee kirpaa karay ja-o apnee tou gur kay sabad samaavhigay. ||3||
When the Dear Lord grants His Grace, then I am merged in the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||3||
jeevat marahu marahu fun jeevhu punrap janam na ho-ee.
Die while yet alive, and by so dying, be alive; thus you shall not be reborn again.



This shabad has nothing to do with meat eating. It is a mistranslation and is mischief making by you "Sikh".

This shabad is concerning those Pandits that used to perform animal sacrifices on auspicious occasions, and yet were vegetarians? A bit like vegetarians who wear leather belts and shoes, and talk about animal cruelty.

"Doctors say eating meat is healthy - you get vitamins and good things - so there are benefits in eating meat, like with anything its about how much you eat."
The health aspect we all know and there are lots of resources on the Internet on this issue. One site, which highlights the main risks of eating meat, is:

The Health Risks Of Eating Meat.
Meat is disease-ridden and is a dirty thing to eat.

Pure opinion.

Beans release a toxin to prvent being eaten and digested….we humans drown that beans to remove that toxin.

Nuts release a chemical that is used in biologocal warfare.

The list goes on.

As an ex-powerlifetr, I would have to disagree.

Gurbani tells us:

"O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating which, the body is ruined (i.e. are unhealthy), and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||"
(Ang 16)

I love the tase of keer and white channay………….I must give them up!!!


In anycase this line again is taken out of context and refers to mans state without the Guru. More mischief making on your part.

The fact is that a human's own flesh is exactly like that of meat. Observing surgery or perusing internal medicine books, one notes that we are the same substance. That's why Guru Nanak Sahib jee has said not to hate meat. We are meat. But at the same time we cannot eat it because it would be like eating a dead body. It's foul and really unthinkable.

The most foul thing here is twisting Bani to support the arguments of PETA.

Bani does not support any diet. It is not a menu…..it is not Sharia Law.

2 out of 10 for effort.