Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Shaheediyan]

Sorry forgot to say, as per my veer Randip Singh, whatever you eat, eat organic - veg without 1000 dangerous chemicals and animals which have lived an humane life and been fed on natural food (not steroids and other animals).

Sikhs.... don't forget to buy a live organic animal though, so you can ensure 10th Masters Jatka tradition is observed...

 

[kds1980]

However, that is a very poor justification arguement, the demand for meat eaters is not satisfied through consuming "useless" animals, rainforests, eco-systems etc are destroyed to satisfy the ever growing "daily" demand for meat. The cattle population is only so stupidly huge because of mans monstrous greed.

the reason i called those animals useless because in india cows,buffaloes, are not bred for meat.they are mainly bred for milk.so milk is equally destructive for environment.majority of vegetarians do shift their demand of tasty food to milk products.

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip Singh Ji,

I am not talking about modern cultures where meat is avaiable for pennies, I am talking about societies before the onset of factory farming, as close as 40 years ago, things were a lot different.

By luxury, I am insinuating that meat was not part of the daily diet. You can do some research to check this, prior to factory/mass farming, growing an animal was resource and time intensive, the animal had a value, unlike today.

Meat was therefore eaten consideratly i.e. once a week, this was true in most cultures. Today is a different story, greed and demand are strife.

.

I think it has to do with demographics and climate etc. Let me give you an example. The plains Native Americans Pawnee, Sioux etc had a staple diet of Bison. There culture depended on this. In order to wipe their culture out the white man slaughtered the Bison in their hundreds and thousands. (The herds of Bison numbered over 30 to 60 million Attractions in Denver Mountains, Colorado - Buffalo Herd).

The Maori's New Zealand had a staple diet of the Jungle Hog.

Interestingly in "Sicques Tigers or Theives" talks of Sikhs in times of peace hunting the Jungle Hog and being fond of it.

If we want to talk about decimation of the planet, I would argue that one of the greenest cultures that has ever graced the planet has been the Native Americans, who were hunter gathers............the least green being the Egyptians who used factory farming methods to grow wheat and decimate the land (much like the dust bowls in the 1920's America).

It is true that meat is available in vast quantities but do not let us forget other luxury foods such as sugar, milk, cheese, butter also can be banded in this category. Also fruit like Banana's, Oranges etc are all luxury foods.

 

[Shaheediyan]

Few quick points...

Wild Boar was introduced to New Zealand by the Europeans, so hardly a traditional Maori diet.

Native Indians, you will find that their were many tribes, all who lived in diverse environments and had diverse diets, depending on their locality.

Bison were not 365 days a year food, they are migratory animals. Corn, fish, birds, lizards, herbs, berries, many types of indigineous vegetables also feature on the natives diets.

In any case, I am not talking about native tribes, they lived in complete harmony with their environment and consumed resources wisely, as proved by your note re the decimation of the Bison herds by the west, who now continue to decimate and encourage other to, what remains of the Earths health.

Your point re non-meat decimation is valid to. I went to Borneo 4 years ago, the last largest tract of virgin rain forest in the world, and the Chinese are destrying it illegally for logging and palm oil plantations.

 

[spnadmin]

Veeren

The conversation has taken a different twist. It seems that the ethical issue associated with eating meat has shifted from "suffering" to the "health of the planet." We may still be talking about Sikhism, but we should explain why.

BTW;
Bison herds were not exterminated in order to destroy Native American cultures and peoples. They were exterminated to make way for the railroads - and to settle the American west. Yes this did have a negative impact on Native Americans but so did the Winchester rifle, small pox, veneral disease, and alcohol. Once again the 5 Thieves at work - and not necessarily the result of eating meat, keeping cows for milk, or shooting a goat or wild boar.

 

[Shaheediyan]

Veer ji,

My point was simply to correct Randip Singhs re Natives lived purely off Bison, which was incorrect. This thread is about meat, which is what I am trying to discuss, benefits and disadvantes, but you guys seem very defensive and keep shifting trajectory to other points (as mentioned above) which although correct, are not related.

In any case, another main reason for the slaughter was the hides. Have a look at some of the beautiful old pics with 10,000's of skinned and wasted carcusses litttering the plains and natives crying at this demonic act of the new settlers.

And actually, part of teh reason was also to weaken and destroy the native threat to these peoples western migration, destroy their sustenance, destroy them. As much as you may like to deny it, these are the sort of tactics Europeans (and their descendents) employed everywhere.

 

[spnadmin]

Dear brother

You have a tendency to criticize people and then correct them for things they never said in a comment, and probably never thought. Please try to stay a little closer to what is there. That would make it a friendlier discussion.

Thank you

 

[Shaheediyan]

Dear sister,

Thanks for the kind observation, I will try and be more careful.

And may humbly I suggest likewise.

Cheers.

 

[Randip Singh]

Few quick points...

Wild Boar was introduced to New Zealand by the Europeans, so hardly a traditional Maori diet.

You are right.

My mistake. Don't know what I was thinking about. I was thinking of Guranis.....and wrote Maoris.

Native Indians, you will find that their were many tribes, all who lived in diverse environments and had diverse diets, depending on their locality.

Yes I am aware of the diverse diet but was focusing on the plains Native Americans. This article talks about their diet Guts and Grease: Diet of Native Americans. If you want to know more about native american diet I suggest to pm Bindy (who is a native American Sikh on this forum).

Bison were not 365 days a year food, they are migratory animals. Corn, fish, birds, lizards, herbs, berries, many types of indigineous vegetables also feature on the natives diets.

I am aware of this too......however reliance on the Bison was heavy for a number of things.

In any case, I am not talking about native tribes, they lived in complete harmony with their environment and consumed resources wisely, as proved by your note re the decimation of the Bison herds by the west, who now continue to decimate and encourage other to, what remains of the Earths health.

Interesting that herd of 40 to 60 million roamed America and the environment was not decimated? Yet a million live there now and the environment is now deemed as decimated. I would argue still that farming for crops has decimated environment far more than any herds of Bison. Dust Bowls in the 1920's in America being a case in point.

Buffalo eat the plants then produce manure. Their stampeding churns the ground and stops it hardening.

Your point re non-meat decimation is valid to. I went to Borneo 4 years ago, the last largest tract of virgin rain forest in the world, and the Chinese are destrying it illegally for logging and palm oil plantations.

The point is factory farming for vegetables or animal can decimate the earth.

 

[Shaheediyan]

I agree with all you have said brother. I have studied Native Ameircan history many years ago, Temcumseh being one of my favourite personalities, so got a grounding on how varied natives environment, diet, cultures and even languages used to be (most of which a lost today).

However, the Bison herds had evolved to live in perfect harmony with the plains, with the Natives replacing the original carnivores who used to control the Bison population.

My point was specifically refering to the decimation of raniforests, particlary the greatest, the Amazon Basin, which has mostly been cut down to feed Americas craving for beef, and destroyes the fragile soil which the tress hold together, and which is washed away once the soil is no longer afforded protection....

But I think we are pretty much singing off the same hymn sheet!

I would like to end quoting from Randip Singhs article on the point that if you are going to eat meat, then ensure it's Jhatka, and the only way of ensuring that is doing Jhatka yourself or witnessing it.

Unfortunately, I see this point "always" conveniently being overlooked by meat eating Sikhs and most Muslims today, otherwise, there meat, would not be the staple/daily diet for anyone...

>WHY JHATKA MEAT?
>
>What is Jhatka Meat and Why?
>
>Jhatka meat is meat in which the animal has been killed quickly without
>suffering or religious ritual.
>
>We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved
>food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only
>such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of
>the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption.
>However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political
>hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for
>food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher
>meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the
>animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a
>sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind
>Singh
>took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He,
>therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole
>theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to
>impose
>iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those
>Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.
>Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt
>Press

Nice talking to you.

 

[Randip Singh]

I agree with all you have said brother. I have studied Native Ameircan history many years ago, Temcumseh being one of my favourite personalities, so got a grounding on how varied natives environment, diet, cultures and even languages used to be (most of which a lost today).

However, the Bison herds had evolved to live in perfect harmony with the plains, with the Natives replacing the original carnivores who used to control the Bison population.

True. The same could be said of the Egyptians that cleared vast swathes of land to farm wheat on destroying natural environments and evetually creating desert.

My point was specifically refering to the decimation of raniforests, particlary the greatest, the Amazon Basin, which has mostly been cut down to feed Americas craving for beef, and destroyes the fragile soil which the tress hold together, and which is washed away once the soil is no longer afforded protection....

Its not only for beef but for other things too: Rainforest Destruction

But I think we are pretty much singing off the same hymn sheet!

True.

I would like to end quoting from Randip Singhs article on the point that if you are going to eat meat, then ensure it's Jhatka, and the only way of ensuring that is doing Jhatka yourself or witnessing it.

Unfortunately, I see this point "always" conveniently being overlooked by meat eating Sikhs and most Muslims today, otherwise, there meat, would not be the staple/daily diet for anyone...

>WHY JHATKA MEAT?
>
>What is Jhatka Meat and Why?
>
>Jhatka meat is meat in which the animal has been killed quickly without
>suffering or religious ritual.
>
>We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved
>food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only
>such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of
>the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption.
>However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political
>hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for
>food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher
>meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the
>animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a
>sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind
>Singh
>took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He,
>therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole
>theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to
>impose
>iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those
>Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.
>Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt
>Press

Nice talking to you.

Interestingly you point to Jhatka. Jhatka actually means "one blow". This blow can be delivered with a sword, a gun , a bolt.....or whatever modern means are to be used.

To impose a rule that a Sikh who eats meat must kill the animal himself should mean that the vegetarian should also gather and cut there food for their table themselves too. They should plough the field, grow it, cultivate it, cut it down a process it. It don't think either is practical. The assertion that somehow one rule should apply to the meat eater is an argument which I see time and again, and a hypocrital one at best.

Having witnessed ( and done) Jhatka myself it is very quick and fast. Most meat eaters when buying the meat do witness at least the carving up of the animal at the butchers. Many who go organic nowadays select the animal.

Also note the distress to plants Guruji describes in Bani:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Although clearly a metaphor this shows how the Guru's saw life in everything.....something that is convieniently forgotten by many.

 

[Shaheediyan]

Just out of interest, are you saying that a blade of grass has the same worth as an animal that shares over 99% of a Humans gene poo i.e. a Chimpanzee?

 

[Shaheediyan]

Could I ask why the post for the completely relevant videos I had posted has been removed?

Not nice to "see" the truth hey? The subject of modern meat production, greed, consumption can be spoken about all day long, but "seeing" is another issue.

Those who buy packeted meat, justify their ignorence from select posts on this thread and never see an animal killed, need to be aware of where their meat comes from.

Anyone wants to know about the "modern" Jatka mentioned below, pm me, it couldn't be any further from the truth:

"Interestingly you point to Jhatka. Jhatka actually means "one blow". This blow can be delivered with a sword, a gun , a bolt.....or whatever modern means are to be used."

 

[Randip Singh]

Just out of interest, are you saying that a blade of grass has the same worth as an animal that shares over 99% of a Humans gene poo i.e. a Chimpanzee?

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT - ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.
On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Reading this Shabad one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states: ​

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.
har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.
jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.
mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.
lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

 

[Shaheediyan]

Veer Ji,

"idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth."

So you are at least admitting that biologically, animals have a closer form to humansthan animals. Alongside this don't forget that socially, emotionally and politically, animals also have a closer form to humans.

The value of a Sikhs relationship with an animal is evidenced through the age old working and emotional relationship between man and dog (in some societies) and man and horse in others.

Nihang Singhs are the perfect exampe, calling their horses jaan bhai (life brothers), and historical eye witness accounts speak of the emotional attachment Singhs used to have to their horse... in terms of a travelling aid and battle partner (as the horse learns to think and move like it's master during battle).

Words are one thing, if you really want to know the worth of animals, I suggest you go and spend some time in an Orangutan sanctuary in Borneo, and then see if you hold the same views.

Your interpretations of the bani you have quotes are biased. You say Satguru does not speak of heirarchies of life, therefore all life outside of human life has the same worth... this is pure conjecture.

The point of the said tuks is not demonstrate the value of various life, that does not automatically mean that various life has no value.

I am not saying plant has no value, of course it does, all life depends on it. But we should not discount evolution and the advancing journey of life, culminating in its it ultimate self-realising form, insaan.

 

[kds1980]

if i am not wrong chimpanzees and gorillas were part of diet of native africans.

 

[Randip Singh]

Could I ask why the post for the completely relevant videos I had posted has been removed?

Not nice to "see" the truth hey? The subject of modern meat production, greed, consumption can be spoken about all day long, but "seeing" is another issue.

Those who buy packeted meat, justify their ignorence from select posts on this thread and never see an animal killed, need to be aware of where their meat comes from.

Anyone wants to know about the "modern" Jatka mentioned below, pm me, it couldn't be any further from the truth:

"Interestingly you point to Jhatka. Jhatka actually means "one blow". This blow can be delivered with a sword, a gun , a bolt.....or whatever modern means are to be used."

It is exactly this sort of attitude Bani seeks to redress. In India if someone kills a cow they are usually beaten or sometimes put to death. This sort of attitude where the "right" of an animal, which has no ability to function at a level of higher conscience, over a human being, which functions or has the potential to function at levels of higher conscience, is why our Guru's thought it only fools argue over it.

If you don't like the idea of eating meat then don't do it...there is no need to be a Peta-Nazi and ram your carrots and peas down the throat of someone who respects your right to be a vegetarian. Please respect the right of someone to be be a meat eater.

Thanks

 

[Randip Singh]

Veer Ji,

"idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth."

So you are at least admitting that biologically, animals have a closer form to humansthan animals. Alongside this don't forget that socially, emotionally and politically, animals also have a closer form to humans.

The value of a Sikhs relationship with an animal is evidenced through the age old working and emotional relationship between man and dog (in some societies) and man and horse in others.

Nihang Singhs are the perfect exampe, calling their horses jaan bhai (life brothers), and historical eye witness accounts speak of the emotional attachment Singhs used to have to their horse... in terms of a travelling aid and battle partner (as the horse learns to think and move like it's master during battle).

Words are one thing, if you really want to know the worth of animals, I suggest you go and spend some time in an Orangutan sanctuary in Borneo, and then see if you hold the same views.

Your interpretations of the bani you have quotes are biased. You say Satguru does not speak of heirarchies of life, therefore all life outside of human life has the same worth... this is pure conjecture.

The point of the said tuks is not demonstrate the value of various life, that does not automatically mean that various life has no value.

I am not saying plant has no value, of course it does, all life depends on it. But we should not discount evolution and the advancing journey of life, culminating in its it ultimate self-realising form, insaan.

Bani speaks for itself.

It is not biased. If you do not like its meaning then so be it, but vegtarian spin is not the way to enter a sensible debate.

I am affraid you too like some of the defeated posters on this thread are entering the realm of emotional blackmail, followed with insinuation and insult.

 

[Shaheediyan]

"It is exactly this sort of attitude Bani seeks to redress. In India if someone kills a cow they are usually beaten or sometimes put to death. This sort of attitude where the "right" of an animal, which has no ability to function at a level of higher conscience, over a human being, which functions or has the potential to function at levels of higher conscience, is why our Guru's thought it only fools argue over it.

If you don't like the idea of eating meat then don't do it...there is no need to be a Peta-Nazi and ram your carrots and peas down the throat of someone who respects your right to be a vegetarian. Please respect the right of someone to be be a meat eater."

My friend my post was just refering to the laughable suggestion of "modern" jatka that you made, which in no way resembles the ancient "clean kill" Rajput tradition. So by way of your overly defensive reaction, you my friend are the Nazi, as I have no problem with with sensible and responsible meat consumption, my problem is with ignorent people consuming kutha and cruelly killed animals without knowing it.

Not sure why yo uhad to sensationalise, where did I say an animals life is more or of equal value to a mans?

Like I said, ANYONE INTERESTED IN EVIDENCE, PM ME.

 

[Shaheediyan]

Bani speaks for itself.

Then why continually interpet it how you see fit, just quote it and leave it at that.
It is not biased. If you do not like its meaning then so be it, but vegtarian spin is not the way to enter a sensible debate.

The root of the spin is self evident, you place little value on animal life or worth, where as puratan Singhs do, history speaks for itself.

I am affraid you too like some of the defeated posters on this thread are entering the realm of emotional blackmail, followed with insinuation and insult.

If I have insulted you, kindly point it out, and I will gladly apoogise, this is not my intention.

I am not trying to use emotional blackmail, just state and "SHOW" the facts, which if anyone wants to see, PM me.

Don't worry, I have no intention for competing for your prized position as king of this thread, I actually agreed with much of what you said if you bothered to read my posts, my only issue is with animal cruelty, which traditional Jatka overcomes, but which the very large majority of modern meat production does not, and which I can prove if the administrators let me post some videos.

Like it or not, daya is a necessary gun for a Sikhs spiritual development, by this I am not saying everyone go veggie, I am saying don't be ignorent and create demand for monstrous cruelty in modern meat production, if you really want to eat meat sensibly, ensure it is Jatka - the tradition wasn't introduced and used for nothing.