Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Randip Singh]

Mr Randip Singh,

You are limited by your "Hukam" as everyone is too. I cannot teach you what you refuse to learn which is presently beyond your understanding.

I take it you are limited by your "Hukam" too, if that is the case then you are by definition incapable of teaching anyone, therefore there is nothing to understand. You have cited your opinions (as well as some very unkind extreme comments), and I disagree.

Who is representing the "Ugly face of Sikhism" here, Future holds the secret to this or for that matter who face is going to be ugly.

Using statements such as Blasphemy to describe a piece of researched work is UGLY. Such usage of words on this forum are uncalled for. My experince of people who use such words are that they are usually quite intolerant people.

There is no case of loosing debate. This debate is not on equal par. As per the second part of the verse says:

Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue over flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

The rest of this tukh states:

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

Stating one line is a classsic ploy by those who seek to mistranslate and misrepresent is to quote one liners from Bani out of context.......what you have done is a good example of this.

What do you mean by equal par? If by this you mean we should take everything you say as truth then I will disagree again. Clearly quoting one liners from Bani is not the truth.

When you do gain some spiritual wisdom (if)one day, you will not feel the need for any discussion. I stand by all of my statements. Future shall reveal the results of your input in this topic. It is not part of my "Hukam" to educate you. If it is part of your "Hukam" to mislead people then you are part of the bigger plan.

Who are you to state whether I have spiritual wisdom or not? We have discussed and you were proven wrong in all your assertions. My "Hukam" is not to mislead but to explore the truth and expose those who would define something by their own prejudices.

I was bewildered the first time but then I spent some time and looked into you translations, They all have been originated by one Dr Sant Singh Khalsa. There are considerable errors in them. Just check them against those of Prof Sahib Singh (Punjabi) for yourself and see if justice has been done. I can understand that there are difficulties in translations, since you refer your self to be an authority over these matters then why not spend time on the task of correcting these translation. .

Actually if you bothered to read the essay it actually challenges these translations, and states they are inaccurate. You would know this if you had bothered to read the essay. It states at the begining:

One thing that has incensed us is the use of incorrect History and mistranslation to back up arguments. It was these points that we felt needed clarification and we hope the reader will find that this essay does that.

I consider myself no authority, but I am easily able to challenge your arguments and translations. Also there are many other translations. Devinder Chahil has done a good job too.

I have no enmity with you and hold no grudges. This musafir is in the Divine Protection of the Gurus, it will be your misfortune and your own fault to get punished. So do not let your tongue too loose again.

I bid you farewell once again.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

Your virtriolic statements say otherwise, and using staements such "as it will be your misfortune and your own fault to get punished. So do not let your tongue too loose again." and "If it is part of your "Hukam" to mislead people" say otherwise. I will continue to speak my mind, and neither you or anyone else will not be able to stop me from speaking my mind. No threats of divine punishment by you will frighten me. You are not the only person under the protection of the Guru's, to assume so is just pure Hankaar.

I will have to warn you to stop making statements of a personal nature and start debating the issues.

Thanks

 

[Astroboy]

[Everything starts with one thing-EGO; when one thinks 'I am better than others'.]
So many misconceptions have been raised in the Panth by this “I-ness” and are responsible for creating unnecessary controversies.]

I agree with you on the above matter. The cause of trouble in one's life is always the self-centred ego. But if this topic could really result in reduce animal suffering by making more people vegetarians then its all worth it. Animal's are being slaughtered every minute somewhere in the world and sometimes via methods beyond our wildest nightmares. Youtube is full of video clips. Need I say more?

So are you going to be the one who raises questions in forums but fail to act to save these innocent animals? If herbiverous animals end up like this, what would be the fate of the meat-eaters?

 

[Randip Singh]

I agree with you on the above matter. The cause of trouble in one's life is always the self-centred ego. But if this topic could really result in reduce animal suffering by making more people vegetarians then its all worth it. Animal's are being slaughtered every minute somewhere in the world and sometimes via methods beyond our wildest nightmares. Youtube is full of video clips. Need I say more?

Ironic you recognise that egotism is the cause of the problem yet you state that the vegetarian diet is somehow better than a non-vegetarian one. That is pure egotism, and is something our Guru's addressed head on:

Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

First Mehl:
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

Sadana was a butcher who slaughtered animals yet his philosophy was included within Bani. If Sikhism thought so lowly of those that killed animals their Bani would have been excluded. Bhagat Ravi Das too slaughtered animals for their leather? Should his Bani be excluded? According to your Youtube videos Bhagat Sadana and Bhagat Ravi Das would be eternal sinners.

So are you going to be the one who raises questions in forums but fail to act to save these innocent animals? If herbiverous animals end up like this, what would be the fate of the meat-eaters?

What makes these animals so innocent? What is your reason behind this? In any case are plants not innocent?

What about plant eaters? According to Bani below one can be a plant in one life then human the next, surely you are commiting a sin by eating plants then....read on:

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

In this case an aborted innocent baby becomes a plant in their next life and then become human. Are you not commiting a sin in killing that plant?

Guruji describes planst as feeling pain:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

If poor plants end up like this then what of the fate of eaters of plant flesh? What will their fate be?

 

[simpy]

Respected and Righteous begum ji,

your words-

So are you going to be the one who raises questions in forums but fail to act to save these innocent animals?

seems like you are posing a question for me neech....

if you think it is due to my lack of action, i accept it. tuhada keha sir mathe te dear begum ji......i really dont know why i am a failure in this case though.

can you please explain why it's my failure, just for THE SAKE OF INFORMATION.

thanks endlessly




TU KARTA SACHEYAAR MAINDA SAAEE


humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

 

[Astroboy]

No this question was posed for the general public, not you, Surinder Jee. Sorry for not clarifying earlier. You're doing a good job, so don't be distracted.

As for you Randip, I am out of words. No issues with you. Thank you for your reminder. But try not to jump into conclusions on whether I support vegetarianism over meat consumption.

My issue was really about making a difference for the animals. Your statement about "making animals look innocent" is both educational and humiliating to my emotional make-up. Looks like the rug has been pulled from underneath my feet. During this emotional ordeal with I am made to feel now, not blaming you, memory files of images have started to run swiftly within me; making me think if I and some of us have let emotions grow to an un-checked size.

Then the problems in the world are merely as one sees it. They have no objective reality. I know you could load me with another round of Gurbani verses, but it will not be of much help right now.

 

[Randip Singh]

As for you Randip, I am out of words. No issues with you. Thank you for your reminder. But try not to jump into conclusions on whether I support vegetarianism over meat consumption.

My issue was really about making a difference for the animals. Your statement about "making animals look innocent" is both educational and humiliating to my emotional make-up. Looks like the rug has been pulled from underneath my feet. During this emotional ordeal with I am made to feel now, not blaming you, memory files of images have started to run swiftly within me; making me think if I and some of us have let emotions grow to an un-checked size.

Then the problems in the world are merely as one sees it. They have no objective reality. I know you could load me with another round of Gurbani verses, but it will not be of much help right now.

Sorry for coming accross very heavy handed, but I used to use the same points as you to promote vegetarianism..........Bani dispelled the idea that my idea of an ideal diet was purely my ideal........

I always have to seprate the me from the we!

 

[Astroboy]

I can understand that you too are no exception as a truth seeker. You apparently are going through a phase right now. And in this phase you want everyone to see things your way. But let me tell you, Randip you are casting pearls before the swine. Not every seeker of truth who makes a comment needs the same dose of medicine that you happen to inject in everyone. You should realize that these forums and threads are visited by people with different levels of consciousness. You might have good intentions but newbies come here to get involved in sikhi in a light and casual manner.

Let it be known that most people who are unhappy with their worldly lives come here to seek 'shelter' and participation just to be cheerful.

This forum therefore needs to categorise the threads into possibly three levels. The advanced level guys who want to take 'pangga' can expect to get the 'shelling' from you. But exempt those who are new or middle level.

I hope you take my comments in good faith.

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear Friend

I some what agree that there should be some distinction with beiginers

The worst thing I can imagine is scaring off the newbie on forum and sikhi with with our heavy guns
I have taken your point for my future posting thanks for this general advise

 

[Parma]

Good Debate. Like The Beginning Articale

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Quote:
I take it you are limited by your "Hukam" too, if that is the case then you are by definition incapable of teaching anyone, therefore there is nothing to understand. You have cited your opinions (as well as some very unkind extreme comments), and I disagree.

Your comment is a vivid demonstration of your lack of understanding of spirituality. I too am under “Hukam” but everyones “Hukam” is different based on their spiritual awareness. Therefore you can be taught by your senior.

You feel very hurt by my comments. How about yours, you are almost saying that our Gurus are hypocrites. One set of rules for Sikhs and the other for Non-sikhs (other religions).

Jabhi baan lagge, Tabhi rosse jagge.

Those comments I made are still valid and I still stand by them and will demonstrate them to you in due course. You need to re-boot your mindset. You are heavily influenced by the Maya virus and depict a personification of Kalyug. It is not your fault, you are bound by Kalyug. “Right will look wrong and wrong right.” Gurbani stands witness to this.

Quote:
Using statements such as Blasphemy to describe a piece of researched work is UGLY. Such usage of words on this forum are uncalled for. My experince of people who use such words are that they are usually quite intolerant people


Your research work is very deficient and is very damaging to the future generation of Sikhism. You are not qualified or experienced enough yet to do research work on Sikhism.
Intolerance? Yes there is always intolerance between a bairagee(bhagat) and the world he lives in. You work is an insult and demeaning to the Sacrifices of “Our Gurus”.

Quote:
The rest of this tukh states:

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
Stating one line is a classsic ploy by those who seek to mistranslate and misrepresent is to quote one liners from Bani out of context.......what you have done is a good example of this.What do you mean by equal par? If by this you mean we should take everything you say as truth then I will disagree again. Clearly quoting one liners from Bani is not the truth.


I am fully aware of what the tukh states but It appears that you are missing the point.
You accuse me for talking out of context. Well let us go right to the beginning and see what is Sikh Phillosophy and what are the underlying values of Sikhism. You and your exteemed colleague appears to have totally misunderstood the philosophy of Sikhism and gone off-course to lay the foundations for yet another misleading religion.
I have taken the base information from Wikipedia as reference and made some important modifications. We will only move forward once we are in agreement. I will answer to all your allegations and prove what I say is right.
Sikh religious philosophy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Sikhism primary beliefs and principles

1. One God: - There is only one God who has infinite qualities and names. S/He is the same for all religions. God is Creator and Sustainer and Destroyer - all that you see around you is His creation. S/He is everywhere, in everything. S/He is fearless and with no enemies. Only God is without birth or death and S/He has and will exist forever.
2. Reincarnation, karma and salvation: – Every creature has a soul. On death, the soul is passed from one body to another until liberation. The journey of the soul is governed by the deeds and actions that we perform during our lives. It is also influenced by the state of ones mind leading to the final breaths (Death).
3. Remember God: Love God, but have fear of Him as well. Only by keeping the Creator in your mind at all times will you make progress in your spiritual evolution.
4. Humanity (brotherhood): All human beings are equal. We are all sons and daughters of Waheguru, the Almighty.
5. Uphold moral values: Defend, protect and fight for the rights of all creatures, in particular your fellow human beings.
6. Personal sacrifice: Be prepared to give your life for all supreme principles. See the life of Guru Teg Bahadur.
7. Many paths lead to God: – Sikhs are not special; they are not the only chosen people of God. Simply calling yourself a Sikh does not bring you salvation. Sikhism however present you with a very simple sure and progressive path.
8. Positive attitude toward life: "Chardi Kala" – Always have a positive, optimistic and buoyant view of life. God is always here is guise – He will be your help.
9. Disciplined life: Upon baptism, a Sikh must wear the 5Ks and perform strict recital of the five prayers Banis, etc. Only get baptised when you have no doubts left. To get baptised and pursue a life doubtness of (life of a Bemukh) is treated harshly by our Gurus.
10. No special worship days: Sikhs do not believe that any particular day is holier than any other.
11. Conquer the five thieves: It is every Sikh's duty to defeat these five thieves: Pride (a’Hankar), Anger (Kr’odh), Greed (Lob’H), Attachment (Mo’H), and Lust (K’haam). Known collectively as P.A.G.A.L.
12. Conquer the five sences: It is every Sikh's duty to renounce these five senses: Tounge (Desire to eat Tasty foods), Hear (Habbit of listerning to Gossip), Speech ( Too much unnecessary Talking), External visualisation (Desire to see everything externally), Touch (To feel your and others presence) that a body takes pleasure from and confirms ones existance. (Known in Bani as Bairaganiaan)
13. Attack with Five Weapons: Contentment (Santokh), Charity (Dan), Kindness (Daya ), Positive Energy (Chardi Kala), Humility (Nimarta).

Sikhism underlying values

1. Equality: All humans are equal before God – No discrimination is allowed on the basis of caste, race, gender, creed, origin, color, education, status, wealth, etc. The principles of universal equality and brotherhood are important pillars of Sikhism.
2. God’s spirit: All creatures have God’s spirits and must be properly respected. Show love for all living things. Mistreatment or harming of any living creature is tabooed and forbidden. Remember, your next birth may be as a different animal.
3. Personal right: Every person has a right to life but this right is restricted and has attached certain duties – simple living is essential. A Sikh is expected to rise early, meditate and pray, consume simple food, perform an honest day's work, carry out duties for your family, enjoy life and always be positive, be charitable and support the needy, etc.
4. Actions count: Salvation is obtained by one’s actions – good deeds, remembrance of God – Naam Simran, Kirtan, etc.
5. Living a family life: Encouraged to live as a family unit to provide and nurture children for the perpetual benefit of creation.
6. Sharing: It is encouraged to share and give to charity 10 percent of one’s net earnings DASBAND.
7. Accept God’s will: Develop your personality so that you recognize happy event and miserable events as one – the will of God causes them.

I am sure even you will agree to all the above. If not then raise your concerns.
Quote:
Who are you to state whether I have spiritual wisdom or not? We have discussed and you were proven wrong in all your assertions. My "Hukam" is not to mislead but to explore the truth and expose those who would define something by their own prejudices.


Who am I to state whether I have spiritual wisdom or not? Well you have not earned enough brownie points yet to know who I am. You are not equipped yet to make decisions. However exploring is everyone’s right.


Quote:
Actually if you bothered to read the essay it actually challenges these translations, and states they are inaccurate. You would know this if you had bothered to read the essay. It states at the begining:One thing that has incensed us is the use of incorrect History and mistranslation to back up arguments. It was these points that we felt needed clarification and we hope the reader will find that this essay does that. I consider myself no authority, but I am easily able to challenge your arguments and translations. Also there are many other translations. Devinder Chahil has done a good job too.



Consider it courteous on my side that I chose to ignore your statement because you have almost re-written history by your comments. You can challenge as much as you like but that does not mean that you fully understand what I am saying.

Quote:
Your vitriolic statements say otherwise, and using staements such "as it will be your misfortune and your own fault to get punished. So do not let your tongue too loose again." and "If it is part of your "Hukam" to mislead people" say otherwise. I will continue to speak my mind, and neither you or anyone else will not be able to stop me from speaking my mind. No threats of divine punishment by you will frighten me. You are not the only person under the protection of the Guru's, to assume so is just pure Hankaar.

I will have to warn you to stop making statements of a personal nature and start debating the issues.




“Khotey nu loon devo te oh aakhda hai ki mere kunn put kehe ne.”

Those were not threats but mere advice. To advise someone from making a foolish mistake (intentional or un-intentional) is not considered to be Hankaar. And it is not Hankaar to be under Gurus protection, it is a blessing. If you too are also that close to Guru ji’s then you too are free to make a statement. I will be happy to be aquainted with you as a fellow traveller (Musafir).

Well if you want to debate then lets debate right from the beginning.

Do you agree with the primary beliefs and principles of Sikhism and the underlying values as stated above.

Where does it say in the Bani that a Sikh has the right to take anyones life. Be it Human or an animal? And that such action has no consequences?


Based on your comments, Is it not then hypocrisy on part of our Gurus to Criticise Hindus and/or Muslims for killing animals? Wheras their own students are free to do so. In either case the animal looses its life for no reason, whether you read Quaranic verses or do jhattka whilst killing it.? Death is death = loss of life.

If you want to understand Bhagat Kabeer then you will need to spiritually elevate yourself to his level to comment on him. For that matter be it Bhagat Sadana ji or Bhagat Ravi Das ji. One should not make unqualified statement.

Bhagat Sadana and Bhagat Ravidass ji were spiritually elevated people. They were not slaves of their bodies. Their soul and body were two different entities. The actions of their bodies were mechanical and did not impact on their Karmas as “I” was not present. I suggest you only give examples on issues that are within your grasp.

Look forward to your comments.

Ekmusafir ajnabi

 

[drkhalsa]

Death is death = loss of life.

Are we in position control it whether it is of animal or may be insect ?
Or may be we are capable of wasting some animal life ?

please elaborate

 

[Astroboy]

I wish to request the Moderators to consider shifting this topic to Hard Talk section so that it may continue its natural course. My apologies to all concerned, especially to Randip.

 

[spnadmin]

Begum ji

You idea is well expressed. The reason why this thread has stayed in essays-on-sikism is that it began in that part of the forum as a very long and detailed piece of research about the rehit and/or lack of rehit against eating meat. The very first posting is a lengthy and erudite analysis written in the form of an essay. So if it were to be moved based on current conversations, then everything that went on earlier would be moved too. Kind of like a forced migration to another country.

So every now and then someone has to ask participants to re-focus their efforts back to the original intent of the thread. And they do.

SPN MEMBER, BEGUM, HAS MADE A RELEVANT OBSERVATION. WE NEED TO RELATE OUR COMMENTS TO THE SUBSTANCE OF THE THREAD. AND RANDIP JI, BACKING YOU UP HERE. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. A statement like, "You are heavily influenced by the Maya virus and depict a personification of Kalyug. It is not your fault, you are bound by Kalyug" could be interpreted by some as flaming and is on the cusp of being a personal attack." THANK YOU.

 

[kds1980]

Based on your comments, Is it not then hypocrisy on part of our Gurus to Criticise Hindus and/or Muslims for killing animals? Wheras their own students are free to do so. In either case the animal looses its life for no reason, whether you read Quaranic verses or do jhattka whilst killing it.? Death is death = loss of life.

Ek musafir ji you are talking about hypocracy.Just answer my simple question could you deny the fact that both guru hargobind ji and guru gobind singh ji hunted regularly Along with the sikhs.Now as you said that Death is death so if Ahimsa is such an important part of sikh philosophy then is it not hypocracy on part of guru's to hunt.How could you justify huntings by guru's and sikhs?

 

[Lionchild]

Are we in position control it whether it is of animal or may be insect ?
Or may be we are capable of wasting some animal life ?

please elaborate

We already waste allot of time and life with the many activities we do everyday...
Working to get cars and houses that won't be there when we die, we consume resources that destroy the earth as if there is no tomorrow. And we haven’t even scratched the surface of the many things we do on a regular basis, that are truly "a waste of time and life"

In regards to meat and diet - let people eat what they want to eat, and if you care what they are doing, then I say that you are wasting your time and life caring about others people’s matters that don't regard you.

IMHO: Don’t bother getting choked up over other peoples decisions!


Disclaimer: this is general reply, and not directed towards members that replied, or anyone on SPN in particular. i'm not responsible if take my words to personoly, nor gtets offended by the actually post that is in reponse to an answer.

 

[spnadmin]

Lionchild ji

I share your view that we should not

bother getting choked up over other peoples decisions! An excess of emotion is always a sign that Ego is playing games with Mind -- we want to be RIGHT and are upset when others disagree and say we are WRONG.

What I would say however is that the thread is presumably a discussion about a moral question - a Rehit against meat-eating. So there is an educational theme in this. Having nothing to do with Ego and Mind. It just gets lost every now and then.

 

[Randip Singh]

Your comment is a vivid demonstration of your lack of understanding of spirituality. I too am under “Hukam” but everyones “Hukam” is different based on their spiritual awareness. Therefore you can be taught by your senior.

My friend you are in no position to judge spirituality, and if you think seniority in terms of age matters then you know nothing about Sikhism or what ages our Sikh Guru's were, stop making personal attacks.

You feel very hurt by my comments. How about yours, you are almost saying that our Gurus are hypocrites. One set of rules for Sikhs and the other for Non-sikhs (other religions).

Jabhi baan lagge, Tabhi rosse jagge..

I feel nothing towards your comments, but as someone who belives in freedom of speech (as the Guru's did) I feel I must challenge you.

Stop right there. I have never implied the Guru's are hypocrits. Stop making personal attacks.

Those comments I made are still valid and I still stand by them and will demonstrate them to you in due course. You need to re-boot your mindset. You are heavily influenced by the Maya virus and depict a personification of Kalyug. It is not your fault, you are bound by Kalyug. “Right will look wrong and wrong right.” Gurbani stands witness to this.

Stick to chalenging the work rather than personal attacks.

Your research work is very deficient and is very damaging to the future generation of Sikhism. You are not qualified or experienced enough yet to do research work on Sikhism.
Intolerance? Yes there is always intolerance between a bairagee(bhagat) and the world he lives in. You work is an insult and demeaning to the Sacrifices of “Our Gurus”.

Challenge the work then and stop making personal attacks.

I am fully aware of what the tukh states but It appears that you are missing the point.
You accuse me for talking out of context. Well let us go right to the beginning and see what is Sikh Phillosophy and what are the underlying values of Sikhism. You and your exteemed colleague appears to have totally misunderstood the philosophy of Sikhism and gone off-course to lay the foundations for yet another misleading religion.
I have taken the base information from Wikipedia as reference and made some important modifications. We will only move forward once we are in agreement. I will answer to all your allegations and prove what I say is right.

Point 1 - If you are aware of the Tukh then quote it all. Don't take the quote out of context or you will be challenged like you were and defeated.

Point 2 - wikipedia is not a valid source for citing Sikhism it is a site that can be changed by anyone.

Point 3 - The Quote from wikipedia was made by Hari Singh who follows the GnnSJ cult, and not mainstream Sikhism, so it is irrelevant.

Sikh religious philosophy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Sikhism primary beliefs and principles

1. One God: - There is only one God who has infinite qualities and names. S/He is the same for all religions. God is Creator and Sustainer and Destroyer - all that you see around you is His creation. S/He is everywhere, in everything. S/He is fearless and with no enemies. Only God is without birth or death and S/He has and will exist forever.
2. Reincarnation, karma and salvation: – Every creature has a soul. On death, the soul is passed from one body to another until liberation. The journey of the soul is governed by the deeds and actions that we perform during our lives. It is also influenced by the state of ones mind leading to the final breaths (Death).
3. Remember God: Love God, but have fear of Him as well. Only by keeping the Creator in your mind at all times will you make progress in your spiritual evolution.
4. Humanity (brotherhood): All human beings are equal. We are all sons and daughters of Waheguru, the Almighty.
5. Uphold moral values: Defend, protect and fight for the rights of all creatures, in particular your fellow human beings.
6. Personal sacrifice: Be prepared to give your life for all supreme principles. See the life of Guru Teg Bahadur.
7. Many paths lead to God: – Sikhs are not special; they are not the only chosen people of God. Simply calling yourself a Sikh does not bring you salvation. Sikhism however present you with a very simple sure and progressive path.
8. Positive attitude toward life: "Chardi Kala" – Always have a positive, optimistic and buoyant view of life. God is always here is guise – He will be your help.
9. Disciplined life: Upon baptism, a Sikh must wear the 5Ks and perform strict recital of the five prayers Banis, etc. Only get baptised when you have no doubts left. To get baptised and pursue a life doubtness of (life of a Bemukh) is treated harshly by our Gurus.
10. No special worship days: Sikhs do not believe that any particular day is holier than any other.
11. Conquer the five thieves: It is every Sikh's duty to defeat these five thieves: Pride (a’Hankar), Anger (Kr’odh), Greed (Lob’H), Attachment (Mo’H), and Lust (K’haam). Known collectively as P.A.G.A.L.
12. Conquer the five sences: It is every Sikh's duty to renounce these five senses: Tounge (Desire to eat Tasty foods), Hear (Habbit of listerning to Gossip), Speech ( Too much unnecessary Talking), External visualisation (Desire to see everything externally), Touch (To feel your and others presence) that a body takes pleasure from and confirms ones existance. (Known in Bani as Bairaganiaan)
13. Attack with Five Weapons: Contentment (Santokh), Charity (Dan), Kindness (Daya ), Positive Energy (Chardi Kala), Humility (Nimarta).

Sikhism underlying values

1. Equality: All humans are equal before God – No discrimination is allowed on the basis of caste, race, gender, creed, origin, color, education, status, wealth, etc. The principles of universal equality and brotherhood are important pillars of Sikhism.
2. God’s spirit: All creatures have God’s spirits and must be properly respected. Show love for all living things. Mistreatment or harming of any living creature is tabooed and forbidden. Remember, your next birth may be as a different animal.
3. Personal right: Every person has a right to life but this right is restricted and has attached certain duties – simple living is essential. A Sikh is expected to rise early, meditate and pray, consume simple food, perform an honest day's work, carry out duties for your family, enjoy life and always be positive, be charitable and support the needy, etc.
4. Actions count: Salvation is obtained by one’s actions – good deeds, remembrance of God – Naam Simran, Kirtan, etc.
5. Living a family life: Encouraged to live as a family unit to provide and nurture children for the perpetual benefit of creation.
6. Sharing: It is encouraged to share and give to charity 10 percent of one’s net earnings DASBAND.
7. Accept God’s will: Develop your personality so that you recognize happy event and miserable events as one – the will of God causes them.

I am sure even you will agree to all the above. If not then raise your concerns.

The above needs to be verified by scholars, some of the above is inaccurate as is much of wikipedia.

Who am I to state whether I have spiritual wisdom or not? Well you have not earned enough brownie points yet to know who I am. You are not equipped yet to make decisions. However exploring is everyone’s right..

Again stop perssonal attacks. You are in no position to judge another man's spiritualitiy. You are NOT a Guru. You are a mere man, like me.

Consider it courteous on my side that I chose to ignore your statement because you have almost re-written history by your comments. You can challenge as much as you like but that does not mean that you fully understand what I am saying...

Please enlighten me? Please challenge the essay with verifiable sources and accurate translations.

“Khotey nu loon devo te oh aakhda hai ki mere kunn put kehe ne.”

Those were not threats but mere advice. To advise someone from making a foolish mistake (intentional or un-intentional) is not considered to be Hankaar. And it is not Hankaar to be under Gurus protection, it is a blessing. If you too are also that close to Guru ji’s then you too are free to make a statement. I will be happy to be aquainted with you as a fellow traveller (Musafir).

You are in no position to know what the Guru's are thinking or saying, or to whom they are meeting punishment.

Please keep you personal advice to yourself and debate the issues.

Well if you want to debate then lets debate right from the beginning.

Do you agree with the primary beliefs and principles of Sikhism and the underlying values as stated above.

Where does it say in the Bani that a Sikh has the right to take anyones life. Be it Human or an animal? And that such action has no consequences?

Point 1 - wikipedia is unverifiable.

Point 2 - where does it say in Bani you cannot take a life?

Point 3 - Are you saying the Guru's were pacifists?

Based on your comments, Is it not then hypocrisy on part of our Gurus to Criticise Hindus and/or Muslims for killing animals? Wheras their own students are free to do so. In either case the animal looses its life for no reason, whether you read Quaranic verses or do jhattka whilst killing it.? Death is death = loss of life.

Guru's did not criticise Muslims and Hindu's for killing animals, they criticised sacrifice and its futility. A massive difference and one you cannot seem to grasp.

If you want to understand Bhagat Kabeer then you will need to spiritually elevate yourself to his level to comment on him. For that matter be it Bhagat Sadana ji or Bhagat Ravi Das ji. One should not make unqualified statement.

Bhagat Sadana and Bhagat Ravidass ji were spiritually elevated people. They were not slaves of their bodies. Their soul and body were two different entities. The actions of their bodies were mechanical and did not impact on their Karmas as “I” was not present. I suggest you only give examples on issues that are within your grasp.

Look forward to your comments.

Ekmusafir ajnabi

Please enlighten me about these Bhagats, and why did Sadana and Ravi Das still continue with their so called "dirty" professions and yet still sen as Saints?

PS Last warning, anymore personal attacks and I will delete your posts.

 

[Astroboy]

PS Last warning, anymore personal attacks and I will delete your posts.

Let the decision of deletion come from another moderator, not you Randip, because you are actively involved in this debate.

 

[spnadmin]

Warning to everyone.

Anymore ad hominem attacks, personal attacks, flaming, spamming, or similar violation of forum rules will lead to deletion, and it doesn't matter who breaks the rules.. Or who the forum leader is.

 

[Randip Singh]

PS Last warning, anymore personal attacks and I will delete your posts.

Let the decision of deletion come from another moderator, not you Randip, because you are actively involved in this debate.

Point noted my friend. Another moderator will take that decision. You will note that I have pleaded with Ekh Musafir throughout his postings here not to make personal attacks. Just scroll through them.