Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Lionchild]

You guys still argueing over nothing? :rofl!!:

Man... time to close this topic, all you people do realize that its each individuals choice what they do with there lives and there path to god? I am continually mystified why people will go out of there way to correct other poeples ways, just because it doesnt flow with theres. Well clue in here people, its really non of your business /U] what other poeple do within the boundries of there personal lives.

This article was meant to clarify what has already been mentioned many times. Instead, people have turned it into thread of attacks and heated debate.

Nuff' said :whisling:

 

[kds1980]

You guys still argueing over nothing? :rofl!!:

Man... time to close this topic, all you people do realize that its each individuals choice what they do with there lives and there path to god? I am continually mystified why people will go out of there way to correct other poeples ways, just because it doesnt flow with theres. Well clue in here people, its really non of your business /U] what other poeple do within the boundries of there personal lives.

This article was meant to clarify what has already been mentioned many times. Instead, people have turned it into thread of attacks and heated debate.

Nuff' said :whisling:

dear lionchild

there is no need to close this topic.its better if people who don't agree with this article should raise their questions here.

 

[Randip Singh]

You guys still argueing over nothing?

Man... time to close this topic, all you people do realize that its each individuals choice what they do with there lives and there path to god?

So very true. This is the message of Sikhism, but some people seem determined to stamp their version of Sikhism on everyone.

For example, a Native American with a traditional hunter gatherer life style would be precluded from Sikhism according to some. Sikhism does not make such statements.

It requires control of the 5 theives not changes to your menu.

I am continually mystified why people will go out of there way to correct other poeples ways, just because it doesnt flow with theres. Well clue in here people, its really non of your business what other poeple do within the boundries of there personal lives.

So very true.

I would add again, so long as you are not obsessed by the 5 thieves (which do affect others), your personal life is your own affair.

This article was meant to clarify what has already been mentioned many times. Instead, people have turned it into thread of attacks and heated debate.

Nuff' said

I think when several of us put this article together we expected some flak. The reason why I Posted it under my name is because I am pretty resilient to personal attacks, whereas other contributors were not.

Some of the contributors (strict vegetarians), were afraid of being singled out by their own Jathas for their contribution to this essay and therefore left their names off.

Saying this, personal attacks do still persist, but thank God it is on this website, because this is the few website where mature debate on Sikhism can take place……..compare it to waheguroo network or sikhsangat where the discussion is quite juvenile and the participants and moderators have little or no knowledge of Sikhism and Sikh history.

PS I don't belive it should be closed though.

 

[japjisahib04]

Randeep Ji
Following reply has been received by me from one of my friend who I forwarded your article. Would appreciate your comments.

1. There is one almighty and we should all strive to unify with it.

2. Everything is HIS creation. Now the living creation of his is manifesting in many forms with different levels of expressions.

3. What we see in others is the expressions of the living being.

4. Level of expressions varies with evolution. We cannot see the expression of plant, insects and other lower forms of animal kingdom in terms of pain, cry, etc. Now how do we interpret the pain in our fellow human beings is through his fine expressions. so as we come down the evolution, we see that the expressions disappearing. Its good to have the theoritical knowledge that all is part of HIS family. But its totally unjustified to give the same
logic(eating veg also leads to killing) to crucify the higher forms (just to satisfy ones taste buds).

A cow/goat/ chicken when being slaugtered cries with pain, shouts.... the beheaded head moves,still babbles so that someone can save him. isn't the situation same as human being when crucified. why should we not see this and selectively erase all this when eating. But when we are eating grains, cereals or vegetables, we don't see the expressions though one can say that
they have life. At least lets start from the point when we can see the overt expression. We are the highest form of evolution so that we can
appreciate all these.

Well this only one aspect of my thinking. the others are

1. medical- vegeterianism is the way of healthy living. researches have shown that it has crucial bearing on the heart and blood vessels.

2. you may not agree with it.- our vedic literature says the non veg food items are 'tamasic' which means it can have a bearing on the anger, lust etc. it doesn't mean that the people who eat veg are free of the above. one can only see the change in terms of percentage. I was also a non veg. till 16 years back but its my personal experience that 'tamasic' gunas decreases to some extent after changing to veg way of living.

3. I think why should one be a servant of food items. we have to overcome this barrier to achieve the higher goal.

Regards sahni mohinder

 

[Randip Singh]

Randeep Ji

Following reply has been received by me from one of my friend who I forwarded your article. Would appreciate your comments.

1. There is one almighty and we should all strive to unify with it.

True. What is the relevance to the diet we eat?

2. Everything is HIS creation. Now the living creation of his is manifesting in many forms with different levels of expressions.

Everything is HIS creation, but there is only one conscious form who is aware of him and that is the human.

3. What we see in others is the expressions of the living being.

So do we see this in a plant too?

4. Level of expressions varies with evolution. We cannot see the expression of plant, insects and other lower forms of animal kingdom in terms of pain, cry, etc. Now how do we interpret the pain in our fellow human beings is through his fine expressions. so as we come down the evolution, we see that the expressions disappearing. Its good to have the theoritical knowledge that all is part of HIS family. But its totally unjustified to give the same
logic(eating veg also leads to killing) to crucify the higher forms (just to satisfy ones taste buds).

I think this is pure egotism. Just because a plant cannot make a shrill cry we think it is OK to eat. The black bean is soaked before eaten? Why? To rid it of toxins it produces to prevent itself being eaten. Syrely this is and expression, albeit one we cannot hear? Yet we drown it to satify our own taste buds.

The is a prevalent myth that meat is tasty. It is not, yet people still eat it. I would say vegetarian food is far more tasty.

A cow/goat/ chicken when being slaugtered cries with pain, shouts.... the beheaded head moves,still babbles so that someone can save him. isn't the situation same as human being when crucified. why should we not see this and selectively erase all this when eating. But when we are eating grains, cereals or vegetables, we don't see the expressions though one can say that
they have life. At least lets start from the point when we can see the overt expression. We are the highest form of evolution so that we can
appreciate all these.

Again pure egotism. Even Bani recognizes the pain of plants:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa
1.vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down.
After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

To make an argument that because one simply cannot see life in something and therefore it is OK to kill it is pure ignorance and hypocrisy.

In Sikhism the choice is purely personal.

If your friend is a vegetarian then I say good for him. If he is a meat eater then I say good for him.

Well this only one aspect of my thinking. the others are

1. medical- vegeterianism is the way of healthy living. researches have shown that it has crucial bearing on the heart and blood vessels.

Actually as an ex-bodybuilder and powerlifter I know about nutrition and a balanced diet including lean fish and meat is far better than any vegetarian one for maintaing a healthy body. I can provide medical articles to confirm this.

2. you may not agree with it.- our vedic literature says the non veg food items are 'tamasic' which means it can have a bearing on the anger, lust etc. it doesn't mean that the people who eat veg are free of the above. one can only see the change in terms of percentage. I was also a non veg. till 16 years back but its my personal experience that 'tamasic' gunas decreases to some extent after changing to veg way of living.

Food has no bearing on anger and lust. Look at Adolph Hitler, obsessed with his dog and animals and a vegetarian yet managed genocide on a scale the world has never seen since.

Also look at Hollywood where many have adopted the vegetarian lifestyle and look at their lustful behavior.

Some food may change chemical balances within the body, but it is for the individual to deal with those imbalances. Such is tha path of the Sant Siphahi.

This has nothing to do with Sikhism in any case.

3. I think why should one be a servant of food items. we have to overcome this barrier to achieve the higher goal.

Regards sahni mohinder

I agree why should people be a servant of food, whether it be an OBSESSION with VEGETABLES or with MEAT.

Obsessing greedily (Lobh) about any food is bad for you.

 

[harsimiritkaur]

They say eating eggs is a sin, but in USA, eggs are not fertilized, so there is no life to kill. Also milk is not life. Perhaps we should not eat fruits and vegetables, either, because it is destroying them.

 

[harsimiritkaur]

Many vegetarian sikhs are not pure vegetarians here in USA. Many foods and drinks contain food colorings derived from insects. One product is Gatorade drink. Sunny Delight is another problem. Some products contain "natural flavor" but that can also come from chicken broth.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

c'mon guys

eat what you like..

i thnk Lion Child put it perfectly


debating what "I" should eat or not is incredulously childish

this is a personal choice.

if someone cannot see pain of animals being killed - he/she is perfectly right in not eating it. but there is no point bragging its advantage - this is sheer haumai

ps: i am a veggie myself (sort of - no meats, eggs when "have to") and i am slowly learning to appreciate that what i donot like might be a yummy dish for someone else.

 

[kds1980]

if someone cannot see pain of animals being killed - he/she is perfectly right in not eating it. but there is no point bragging its advantage - this is sheer haumai

The same vegetarians should also see the pain of dairy cows and buffaloes.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

LOL

its relative

i knew this was coming

as i pointed out before:

being sensitive/insensitive is fine, but bragging abt it is haumai.

 

[Astroboy]

Paul and Linda McCartney once wrote:

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be
vegetarian."

 

[Archived_Member_19]

have you ever been to a sushi bar?

 

[Randip Singh]

They say eating eggs is a sin, but in USA, eggs are not fertilized, so there is no life to kill. Also milk is not life. Perhaps we should not eat fruits and vegetables, either, because it is destroying them


Many vegetarian sikhs are not pure vegetarians here in USA. Many foods and drinks contain food colorings derived from insects. One product is Gatorade drink. Sunny Delight is another problem. Some products contain "natural flavor" but that can also come from chicken broth.

Vegetarianism itself is a relative concept:

In the UK you have vegetarians who :

1) at eggs;

2) eat fish;

3) won't consume dairy products (known as vegans);

4) Won't eat a cut or living plant (Jains) etc

the sikh concept surrounding this issue is based on what YOU feel comfortable with.

We really shouldn't be judgemental towards vegetarians, likewise vegetarians shouldn't be judgemental to meat eaters.

 

[Randip Singh]

Paul and Linda McCartney once wrote:

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be
vegetarian."

have you ever been to a sushi bar?

Like I have said in the post above it is all relative.......

I don't think Paul and Linda Mcartney are in any position to preach to the fisherman who makes an honest living or the Inuit who hunts and gathers.........

 

[drkhalsa]

Originally Posted by begum
Paul and Linda McCartney once wrote:

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be
vegetarian."

I think its totally oposite the case

This is very clear example of being judgemental just due lack of knowledge and hand on experience

Going by the theory all Butchers should be Vegatarians !!! Is that the case if this buturing cant change the butchers do you think it can change whole world
Infact oppposite possibity is more feasible where everybody will be NON VEG watching all this

The people who dont eat Meat due to taste of it are very right in doing so because whats there on the plate is not some animal but piece of flesh , you like its taste you eat it , you dont like dont eat

Dwelling into mental abstract jorney on how it reached your plate before is just your bias and that to is limited by the knowledge you have . If you want to try I can help you

example : Just before drinking a cup of coffe did you ever thought the journey from its production to the cup on your table - you might not know it due to bias or lack of information

Africa is major producer of coffe and big companies like nescafe use afric for thier production using unfair trade practice they pay so less to wokers and earn millions from the develped nations .The misery involved in it includes all the misery of all the wokers suffering in poverty and this just one aspect of it . others are like killing of insect and Pests in the fields of coffee plantations and there would be many other aspects .....so why dont you make mental journey for all this products before you have them


I know its difficult to get rid of this obseesion of doing GOOD IN WORLD with your actions and that to selective( only those which one thinks is right!) and take time to understand

Take care

Jatinder Singh

 

[Astroboy]

Guru Nanak, in this stanza, gives the picture of those engaged in good deeds, those who seek to reach Him in diverse ways.

STANZA XVII

• Countless there are that remember Thee, and countless those
  that love Thee;
  Countless there are that worship Thee, and countless those
  that seek Thee in austerity and penance;
  Countless there are that recite from sacred books Thy praises; and
  Countless those that, absorbed in Yoga, stand indifferent to the world;
  Countless those Thy devotees who contemplate Thy attributes
  and wisdom; and
  Countless those that practice truth and charity;
  Countless are the heroes that boldly face the foeman's steel; and
  Countless those who have vowed silence, meditate on Thee
  with unceasing love.
  What power have I to conceive of Thy wonderful nature?
  Too poor, am I, to make an offering of my life to Thee.
  Whatever pleaseth Thee is good:
  Thou art forevermore;
  O, Formless One.

Having spoken of the pious, Nanak now lists the impious.

STANZA XVIII

• Innumerable are the fools, stark blind in ignorance; and
  Innumerable the thieves and crooks that thrive on ill-gotten gains; Innumerable those that exercise tyranny and oppression; and Innumerable the cut-throats living by heinous crimes;
  Innumerable those that revel in shameless sins; and
  Innumerable the liars that practise fraud and falsehood;
  Innumerable the impious that live on unwholesome(1) foods; and Innumerable the slanderers who add to their burden
  by calumniating others.
  Innumerable, the many for lowly Nanak to describe.
  What power have I to conceive of Thy wonderful nature?
  Too poor, am I, to make an offering of my life to Thee.
  Whatever pleaseth Thee is good;
  Thou art forevermore; O Formless One !

(1). The words used in the original are Mal and Bhakh. which mean eating unwholesome food and refer to non-vegetarian diet and intoxicants. Even vegetarian diet and otherwise harmless drinks, if procured by unfair means, are also classed as unwholesome and as such their use proves a positive hindrance on the Path.


If we closely look into the above two Stanzas of Japji Sahib, it would be clear that our discussion is grossly misleading and that we are twisting the meanings around to fulfill our own desires.

 

[Anoop]

I think its totally oposite the case

This is very clear example of being judgemental just due lack of knowledge and hand on experience

Going by the theory all Butchers should be Vegatarians !!! Is that the case if this buturing cant change the butchers do you think it can change whole world
Infact oppposite possibity is more feasible where everybody will be NON VEG watching all this

The people who dont eat Meat due to taste of it are very right in doing so because whats there on the plate is not some animal but piece of flesh , you like its taste you eat it , you dont like dont eat

Dwelling into mental abstract jorney on how it reached your plate before is just your bias and that to is limited by the knowledge you have . If you want to try I can help you

example : Just before drinking a cup of coffe did you ever thought the journey from its production to the cup on your table - you might not know it due to bias or lack of information

Africa is major producer of coffe and big companies like nescafe use afric for thier production using unfair trade practice they pay so less to wokers and earn millions from the develped nations .The misery involved in it includes all the misery of all the wokers suffering in poverty and this just one aspect of it . others are like killing of insect and Pests in the fields of coffee plantations and there would be many other aspects .....so why dont you make mental journey for all this products before you have them


I know its difficult to get rid of this obseesion of doing GOOD IN WORLD with your actions and that to selective( only those which one thinks is right!) and take time to understand

Take care

Jatinder Singh

To tell youthe truth, I beleive that meat shouldn't be eaten, because it is bascailly killing another creation of gods. But I cant help myself, because sometimes i feel that, if i dont eat meat, then i wont get strength for sports, or the running acitivities. Ofcourse, its not about body, it should be about your spirit, and purity, but in a modern world liek this...everyone is eating meat, i feel disgusted, but i can't exactly leave it for some reason...

I admit, im not pure anc clean for the wonderful lord god!

 

[drkhalsa]

To tell youthe truth, I beleive that meat shouldn't be eaten, because it is bascailly killing another creation of gods.

Its Going on since the the creation came into being that is it is being killed

and dont delude yourself in thinking that you are tthe doer!

 

[Archived_Member_19]

just by closing eyes it is tough to believe that we donot see it

i speak for myself and accept that personal choice should be honored

some despise meat, its fine, let us not despise the eater or non eater.

 

[Astroboy]

Are you following Manmat or Gurmat ?
If Gurmat, what is your definition of Gurmat ?

We all know that the Rehat Maryada is not an end to itself. It is supposed to be a guiding tool for those who need it. But one can't force it down another's throat. Because there are so many Do's and Dont's of each religion/sect/cult/group - so how can you say that Sikhism's Rehat is The Rehat. So I ask you guyz - where is your God-given sense of mercy ? Ask yourself this question - if the Guru's gave their lives for the sake of justice and righteousness, what did they eat (what constituted their diet) in their lifetime ?

Why even bother to read sakhis of the lives of the 10 gurus, if we're not going to learn to have compassion in our hearts ?

Why even bother to be a Sikh when, all we want is to win an argument at the expense of truth.

Why even care what happens to innocent animals when we know we have the ability and the chance to stand up against the injustice being done to the creatures of God ?

We're supposed to be the SPIRIT BORN PEOPLE wearing a physical body to make a difference in this world.