Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[spnadmin]

Veer ji, each of you in turn.

The most important thing for Sikhs in the context of this thread: We must not be cannibals.

I smell the wood of an outdoor fire heating up, and hear the panga sauce bubbling on the stove. These are the signs of an ancient human ritual. Whatever we feel about meat as food, a meal of human flesh is not that satisfying.

This thread started out perhaps two years ago as a systematic analysis of Guruji's apparent prohibitions against eating meat. The claim put forward by the authors -- Guruji was using meat and fish as metaphors for something else -- the arrogance of power. The essay was written by one herbivore and one carnivore. The scholarship is excellent. After thousands of views, the thread has been more about wrangling and less about flesh. Very few women chose to participate BTW.

So far the ones ahead in this debate are the team of 5. But the thread has been a real draw for readership. Your devoted bhenji, :}8-:

 

[Randip Singh]

Guru Nanak, in this stanza, gives the picture of those engaged in good deeds, those who seek to reach Him in diverse ways.

STANZA XVII

• Countless there are that remember Thee, and countless those
  that love Thee;
  Countless there are that worship Thee, and countless those
  that seek Thee in austerity and penance;
  Countless there are that recite from sacred books Thy praises; and
  Countless those that, absorbed in Yoga, stand indifferent to the world;
  Countless those Thy devotees who contemplate Thy attributes
  and wisdom; and
  Countless those that practice truth and charity;
  Countless are the heroes that boldly face the foeman's steel; and
  Countless those who have vowed silence, meditate on Thee
  with unceasing love.
  What power have I to conceive of Thy wonderful nature?
  Too poor, am I, to make an offering of my life to Thee.
  Whatever pleaseth Thee is good:
  Thou art forevermore;
  O, Formless One.

Having spoken of the pious, Nanak now lists the impious.

STANZA XVIII

• Innumerable are the fools, stark blind in ignorance; and
  Innumerable the thieves and crooks that thrive on ill-gotten gains; Innumerable those that exercise tyranny and oppression; and Innumerable the cut-throats living by heinous crimes;
  Innumerable those that revel in shameless sins; and
  Innumerable the liars that practise fraud and falsehood;
  Innumerable the impious that live on unwholesome(1) foods; and Innumerable the slanderers who add to their burden
  by calumniating others.
  Innumerable, the many for lowly Nanak to describe.
  What power have I to conceive of Thy wonderful nature?
  Too poor, am I, to make an offering of my life to Thee.
  Whatever pleaseth Thee is good;
  Thou art forevermore; O Formless One !

(1). The words used in the original are Mal and Bhakh. which mean eating unwholesome food and refer to non-vegetarian diet and intoxicants. Even vegetarian diet and otherwise harmless drinks, if procured by unfair means, are also classed as unwholesome and as such their use proves a positive hindrance on the Path.


If we closely look into the above two Stanzas of Japji Sahib, it would be clear that our discussion is grossly misleading and that we are twisting the meanings around to fulfill our own desires.

Totally disagree.

Please post the Gurmukhi version with the English. Mal and Bakh DONOT mean non-vegetarian.

I really am dumfounded at such claims. Please provide proof.

 

[Randip Singh]

Are you following Manmat or Gurmat ?
If Gurmat, what is your definition of Gurmat ?

We all know that the Rehat Maryada is not an end to itself. It is supposed to be a guiding tool for those who need it. But one can't force it down another's throat. Because there are so many Do's and Dont's of each religion/sect/cult/group - so how can you say that Sikhism's Rehat is The Rehat. So I ask you guyz - where is your God-given sense of mercy ? Ask yourself this question - if the Guru's gave their lives for the sake of justice and righteousness, what did they eat (what constituted their diet) in their lifetime ?

Why even bother to read sakhis of the lives of the 10 gurus, if we're not going to learn to have compassion in our hearts ?

Why even bother to be a Sikh when, all we want is to win an argument at the expense of truth.

Why even care what happens to innocent animals when we know we have the ability and the chance to stand up against the injustice being done to the creatures of God ?

We're supposed to be the SPIRIT BORN PEOPLE wearing a physical body to make a difference in this world.

I'm sorry but this really is too much. This reads like a sermon.

What makes you think animals are innocent? Have you an insight into what an animal thinks? Guruji says when we are possed by Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Haankaar we behave like Animal's (Dog's).........so if Guruji is describing everything that is inhuman in us in the guise of an animal then how can you say they are innocent?

What about injustice to plants? Are they not creatures of God? WE cannot see them scream or run away therefore they must not be innocent? Guruji describe's the sugar cane (a plant groaning) under rollers. Why would Guruji state this? surely a plant cannot groan? A Metaphor or an acknowledgement there is life in everything?

When you talk about truth what truth are you talking about? Are you talking about Sadana the Butcher who made a "Truthful living" from butchering animals? Or maybe Ravi Das who skinned animals for a living?

Please back up statements with Bani or we will get nowhere.

 

[Randip Singh]

Veer ji, each of you in turn.

The most important thing for Sikhs in the context of this thread: We must not be cannibals.

I smell the wood of an outdoor fire heating up, and hear the panga sauce bubbling on the stove. These are the signs of an ancient human ritual. Whatever we feel about meat as food, a meal of human flesh is not that satisfying.

This thread started out perhaps two years ago as a systematic analysis of Guruji's apparent prohibitions against eating meat. The claim put forward by the authors -- Guruji was using meat and fish as metaphors for something else -- the arrogance of power. The essay was written by one herbivore and one carnivore. The scholarship is excellent. After thousands of views, the thread has been more about wrangling and less about flesh. Very few women chose to participate BTW.

So far the ones ahead in this debate are the team of 5. But the thread has been a real draw for readership. Your devoted bhenji, :}8-:

the thread has been more about wrangling and less about flesh

Penji you have far more wisdom than I will ever have. Excellent observation!

 

[Randip Singh]

To tell youthe truth, I beleive that meat shouldn't be eaten, because it is bascailly killing another creation of gods. But I cant help myself, because sometimes i feel that, if i dont eat meat, then i wont get strength for sports, or the running acitivities. Ofcourse, its not about body, it should be about your spirit, and purity, but in a modern world liek this...everyone is eating meat, i feel disgusted, but i can't exactly leave it for some reason...

I admit, im not pure anc clean for the wonderful lord god!

My friend if you are attached to meat that is bad. If you are attactched to potatoes that is bad. If you are attached to sweets that is bad. Attachment to......insert here....is bad.

It is attachment and obsession that is bad, not you. If you feel disgusted then don't eat it, but DO NOT be put under pressure by Pakhandhi Baba's to give up under the pretence that it will make you purer.

The only thing that will make you a better person is control of the 5 thieves.

Also read the essay, it tackles these issues head on.

 

[Astroboy]

What makes you think animals are innocent? Have you an insight into what an animal thinks?

Here's Varan Bhai Gurdas:

The butcher slaughters the goat; salts the meat and strings it on a skewer.
While being killed the goat laughingly says: I have come to this condition for grazing only co{censored} leaves of arid wild plants.
What will be the plight of those who cutting the throat with a knife eat the flesh of animals?
The taste of the tongue is harmful for the teeth and damages the mouth.
The one who eyes another’s wealth or body or slanders becomes a poisonous Amphisbaena.
This snake is controlled by the Guru's mantra but the Guru-less manmukh never listens to this glorious mantra.
The Manmukh blindly moves ahead, never realizing the approaching deep pit ahead!

(note: Amphisbaena is a mythical serpent having a head at each end of its body.)
Vaar 37 Pauri 21

 

[kds1980]

Here is another vaar of bhai gurdas ji

‘An elephant’s flesh is not edible for he is full of pride,
The lion is also full of pride of its strength so no one eats it either,
Humble is the goat it gains honor in the here after and this world,
In all celebrations is it [the meat], acknowledged,
It [the meat], sanctifies religious gatherings and feasts,
Its meat is ‘Pavitar’ [good/sacred] for the householder,
From its entrails [tendons] is string for instruments made that when they play, attracts holy men in meditation
From it’s skin are shoes made, which holy feet wear as they go to seek holy protection [to Guru].
With its skin are bound drums with which ‘Kirtan’ [religious songs], are sung,
Hence, they [goat-skin bound drums] give great comfort.
The holy gathering is coming into the Guru’s protection.’
(Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Varan, Bhai Gurdas, ‘Vaar 23, Pauri 16’)

 

[Astroboy]

SGGS Page 723 Full Shabad ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥
ਦੁਨਂ​*ੀਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਖੁਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕੁਸਤਨੀ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥
ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥

banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.
gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.
dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ((2))

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ((Pause))
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell.
((2))

 

[kds1980]

Santokh singh ji if you want to study deeper in meat issue then please read the article in punjabi of pro gyani surgjit singh (kaun maas kaun saag kahave)

KAUN MAAS KAUN SAAG KHAVEY 01

Its a series of 20 article may be it could help you

 

[Astroboy]

It appears to me that the verses which I presented have no effect on you. Let's see what Randip's response will be. Randip wanted proof from SGGS - so I gave it. Of course, one can contradict it by saying that the translation isn't correct, etc. But this only proves that we are failing to acknowledge Guru's bani and only want to see our viewpoint.

The world has come to the point where the Guru's teachings must match their desires. I don't have to look into any other verse for proof. This is what the Guru says, this is what I follow.

 

[drkhalsa]

The world has come to the point where the Guru's teachings must match their desires. I don't have to look into any other verse for proof. This is what the Guru says, this is what I follow.

Dear Friend

I am happy to see that atlast you are finding peace with your decision of being vegetarian and I fully agree that one should follow his own conclusions and this is what I call personal path on spirtuality

But plz dont forget to give the same right to others who have concluded that eating anything is ok .I Think this is what is called Sikh way to respects others belief

so take care


Jatinder Singh

 

[Astroboy]

Dear Friend

I am happy to see that atlast you are finding peace with your decision of being vegetarian and I fully agree that one should follow his own conclusions and this is what I call personal path on spirtuality

But plz dont forget to give the same right to others who have concluded that eating anything is ok .I Think this is what is called Sikh way to respects others belief

so take care


Jatinder Singh

Please accept my apologies for imposing my views too strongly on you guys. Peace to all. Randip gave me an opportunity to find the shabad which I am in harmony with, even he knows that we all visit this thread to gain something. And KD Singh also contributed to my gain. I was egotistic when I answered back rudely. I owe you one, kds1980.

 

[Randip Singh]

Here's Varan Bhai Gurdas:

The butcher slaughters the goat; salts the meat and strings it on a skewer.
While being killed the goat laughingly says: I have come to this condition for grazing only co{censored} leaves of arid wild plants.
What will be the plight of those who cutting the throat with a knife eat the flesh of animals?
The taste of the tongue is harmful for the teeth and damages the mouth.
The one who eyes another’s wealth or body or slanders becomes a poisonous Amphisbaena.
This snake is controlled by the Guru's mantra but the Guru-less manmukh never listens to this glorious mantra.
The Manmukh blindly moves ahead, never realizing the approaching deep pit ahead!

(note: Amphisbaena is a mythical serpent having a head at each end of its body.)
Vaar 37 Pauri 21

I suggest you read all the Pauri's here. Read about the aakh plant. This is nothing to do with meat eating. There are Pauri's in Varan Bhia Gurdas (as KDS has pointed) that actually praise meat eating. What is your comment about that?

‘An elephant’s flesh is not edible for he is full of pride, The lion is also full of pride of its strength so no one eats it either, Humble is the goat it gains honor in the here after and this world, In all celebrations is it [the meat], acknowledged, It [the meat], sanctifies religious gatherings and feasts, Its meat is ‘Pavitar’ [good/sacred] for the householder, From its entrails [tendons] is string for instruments made that when they play, attracts holy men in meditation From it’s skin are shoes made, which holy feet wear as they go to seek holy protection [to Guru]. With its skin are bound drums with which ‘Kirtan’ [religious songs], are sung, Hence, they [goat-skin bound drums] give great comfort. The holy gathering is coming into the Guru’s protection.’ (Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Varan, Bhai Gurdas, ‘Vaar 23, Pauri 13’)

 

[Randip Singh]

SGGS Page 723 Full Shabad ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥
ਦੁਨਂ​*ੀਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਖੁਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕੁਸਤਨੀ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥
ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥

banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.
gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.
dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ((2))

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ((Pause))
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell.
((2))

We tackled this shabad......somwere in this threed.....scroll up.

this shabad is talking about exploitation of others.......entire tukh:

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=AdvancedSearchGurbani

Page 723, Line 13
ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧तिलंग महला ५ घरु १Ŧilang mehlā 5 gẖar
1Tilang, Fifth Mehl, First House:
view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 13

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik*oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.One Universal Creator God.
By The Grace Of The True Guru:
view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 13

ਖਾਕ ਨੂਰ ਕਰਦੰ ਆਲਮ ਦੁਨੀਆਇ ॥खाक नूर करदं आलम दुनीआइ ॥Kẖāk nūr karḏaʼn ālam ḏunī*ā*ė.
The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 14

ਅਸਮਾਨ ਜਿਮੀ ਦਰਖਤ ਆਬ ਪੈਦਾਇਸਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੧॥असमान जिमी दरखत आब पैदाइसि खुदाइ ॥१॥
Asmān jimī ḏarkẖaṯ āb paiḏā*is kẖuḏā*ė. ||1||
The sky, the earth, the trees, and the water - all are the Creation of the Lord. ||1|
|Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 14

ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥बंदे चसम दीदं फनाइ ॥
Banḏė cẖasam ḏīḏaʼn fanā*ė.O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 14

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਖੁਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥दुनींआ मुरदार खुरदनी गाफल हवाइ ॥ रहाउ ॥
Ḏunīʼn*ā murḏār kẖurḏanī gāfal havā*ė. Rahā*o.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed.
||Pause||Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 15

ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕੁਸਤਨੀ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥गैबान हैवान हराम कुसतनी मुरदार बखोराइ ॥
Gaibān haivān harām kusṯanī murḏār bakẖorā*ė.
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 15

ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥दिल कबज कबजा कादरो दोजक सजाइ ॥२॥
Ḏil kabaj kabjā kāḏro ḏojak sajā*ė. ||2||
So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

Page 723, Line 16
ਵਲੀ ਨਿਆਮਤਿ ਬਿਰਾਦਰਾ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਮਿਲਕ ਖਾਨਾਇ ॥वली निआमति बिरादरा दरबार मिलक खानाइ ॥
valī ni*āmaṯ birāḏarā ḏarbār milak kẖānā*ė.
Your benefactors, presents, companions, courts, lands and homes -
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 16

ਜਬ ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਬਸਤਨੀ ਤਬ ਚਿ ਕਾਰੇ ਬਿਦਾਇ ॥੩॥जब अजराईलु बसतनी तब चि कारे बिदाइ ॥३॥
Jab ajrā*īl basṯanī ṯab cẖė kārė biḏā*ė. ||3||
when Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death seizes you, what good will these be to you then? ||3||
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 17

ਹਵਾਲ ਮਾਲੂਮੁ ਕਰਦੰ ਪਾਕ ਅਲਾਹ ॥हवाल मालूमु करदं पाक अलाह ॥
Havāl mālūm karḏaʼn pāk alāh.The Pure Lord God knows your condition.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 723, Line 17

ਬੁਗੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਪੇਸਿ ਦਰਵੇਸ ਬੰਦਾਹ ॥੪॥੧॥बुगो नानक अरदासि पेसि दरवेस बंदाह ॥४॥१॥
Bugo Nānak arḏās pės ḏarvės banḏāh. ||4||1||
O Nanak, recite your prayer to the holy people. ||4||1||
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

.......also read Pritam Chails tranlation..........totally different...........

......the essay was specifaclly done to tackle such tukhs thatv are misrepresented as meaning a prefrence for one sort of diet.

also look into the translations or murdaar - the dead............ bakhoraay - bones..........haram - impure.

 

[Astroboy]

Listen to Balbir Singh and have peace in your heart.

 

[kds1980]

Please accept my apologies for imposing my views too strongly on you guys. Peace to all. Randip gave me an opportunity to find the shabad which I am in harmony with, even he knows that we all visit this thread to gain something. And KD Singh also contributed to my gain. I was egotistic when I answered back rudely. I owe you one, kds1980.

I don't think that you answered rudely.btw the answer of bhai gurdas ji's vaar lies in
the following

KAUN MAAS KAUN SAAG KHAVEY 19

 

[Randip Singh]

Listen to Balbir Singh and have peace in your heart.

You are assuming people are not at peace?

If the vegetarian Sikh is at peace then good for him/her. If the meat eating Sikh is at peace then good for him/her. What they should not indulge is in fruitless efforts to disrupt each others peace.

 

[Astroboy]

SGGS Page 467 Full Shabad
ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਮੰਦੈ ਪੈਰੁ ਨ ਰਖਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥
ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਤੋੜੇ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਅੰਨੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਥੋੜਾ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
onHee mandai pair na rakhi-o kar sukarit Dharam kamaa-i-aa.
onHee dunee-aa torhay banDhnaa ann paanee thorhaa khaa-i-aa.

They do not place their feet in sin, but do good deeds and live righteously in Dharma.
They burn away the bonds of the world, and eat a simple diet of grain and water.

 

[Astroboy]

'Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish, and wine,'

'will go to hell despite all pilgrimages, fasts, and rituals.' (Kabir, Adi Granth, p. 1377)

..............................................................................................

• “Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false. You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||”

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=464&english=t&id=20831

 

[Astroboy]

Moral

The pains and pleasures one gets in this life are heavily influenced by past actions, not just in this life but in countless previous lives. When people suffer at the hands of others it's because they made that person suffer in a previous life. Most people will take revenge and so the cycle of making each other suffer continues life after life. A mythical story to explain this is of a goat and a butcher. The butcher would kill the goat in one life, the goat's soul would be reborn as a butcher and the butcher's soul would be reborn as a goat. In the next life the butcher would kill the goat and so the cycle continued. Then in one life the butcher received a customer who only wanted a goat's leg. The butcher thought if I kill the goat and sell the leg the rest of the goat will rot away. So what he thought was I'll just chop the goat's leg off and bandage the wound, that way the goat will stay alive until the next customer. Just as he was about to cut the leg, the goat spoke, "O Butcher, what's this new bad action you're starting? Life after life we keep swapping roles to cancel our actions, but if you chop my leg now and make me suffer in the next life I'll do the same to you and you'll suffer too!"