Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[pk70]

Re: Meat in sikhism

Respected VSGREWAL Ji
With all due respect let me point out something in your post that is unacceptable as it is tainted with your own point of views which, not necessarily, be a part of Guru Message. Let me make clear right here to you and non vegetarians SPN members that I am not speaking against meat eating as I believe it is up to the person who wants to be vegetarian or non vegetarian( So keep the swords in the sheaths). My comments and questions are all about the correct usage of Gurbani without inserting our own influenced ideology in it and to see if it really belongs where it is used. By the way I applaud your hard work though.

“Sabd Guru categorically forbids mind altering substances that have immoral consequences as indicated by Guru Nanak in Siri Raag;
ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
Baabaa Hor Khaanaa Khusee Khu-aar, Jit Khadhai Tan Peerhai Man Meh Chaleh Vikaar.
O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind.-----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 16-14

What is the kind of food that makes mind wicked (as per your translation), and what is the food that can cause negativity in the body? Kindly elaborate on that with examples so that Sangat should be aware of that food?

“Here is another Sloke of Mardana in Raag Bihaagrha stressing the spiritual side of life:
ਗੁਣ ਮੰਡੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਘਿਉ ਸਰਮੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁੜੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਮੰਡੇ ਭਉ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥
GouN ManDay Kar Seel Gheo Saram Maas Aahaar, Giaan Gourh Salaah ManDay Bhou Maas Aahaar, Nanak Ih Bhojan Sach Hai Sach Naam AaDhaar.
Make virtue your bread, good conduct the ghee, and modesty the meat to eat. So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, the Praise of God your bread, and the Fear of God the meat you eat. O Nanak, this is the true food; let the True Name be your only Support. -----Mardana, Raag Bihaagrha, AGGS, Page, 553-6”

First of all, this Slok is not written by Mardana, how Mardana could could use “Nanak” word with him, he was never authorized to be “Nanak”, it is addressed to Mardana, secondly it addresses the favorites ( ghee and meat) of people and asking to have virtues like modesty, to gain spiritual wisdom, praise and fear of God, be their real favorites.

Kabir originally was idolater and follower of Ramanand and later became monotheistic and believed in contemplation of Naam. He being under the influence of Vedanta states about 3 things to refrain from including fish;
ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥
Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.
Kabir, the mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, will all go to hell.-----Bhagat Kabir Slokes # 233, AGGS, Page, 1377-2 & 3

Respected VSGREWAL JI, these are your own views and kindly do not accuse Kabir ji of that what you think. Let’s look at your assumption. Well, if Gurus were not aligned with him, why didn’t they say anything in context of above Vakas of Kabir Ji as they did in other instances to insert their views in case of Kabir ji and Baba Freed Ji(M-3, M-4), who are we to accuse Kabir ji of having influence of Vidanta? Kabir Ji is known to Sikhs as a devotee of one all pervading Almighty and a contributor to SGGS and his past has nothing to do with his bani accepted in SGGS. Guru ji selected this to be a part of SGGS. Are you asking Sikhs to ignore this Vaak? There is no difference or contradiction between Guru Ji and Bhagatas in context of all subject addressed by them. In SGGS. So let some have their choice about eating or not eating meat on Kabir Ji’s Vaak too, haven’t you said in your beginning of the post that it is a personal choice. Do we really need to say what you have said to negate Kabir Ji’s thought? Obviously Guru Ji didn’t feel that way! Guru ji asked Bhai Gurdas to keep it there intact. Are you getting me? Kindly don’t get influenced by essays written on Kabir Ji to know him, use the real source to know him and that is SGGS.
Thanks.
Regards
G Singh

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Re: Meat in sikhism

Dear G Singh Ji,

The first sloke is meant for those who take foods containing intoxicants whiuch affect the mind should not be used.

Regarding Mardana I agree with you that it is addressed to Mardana.

Thirdly regarding Kabir it is as I understand it. We can agree to disagree on this reference.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[pk70]

Re: Meat in sikhism

Dear G Singh Ji,

The first sloke is meant for those who take foods containing intoxicants whiuch affect the mind should not be used.

Regarding Mardana I agree with you that it is addressed to Mardana.

Thirdly regarding Kabir it is as I understand it. We can agree to disagree on this reference.

Cordially,

Virinder

Respected VSGREWAL Ji

I agree, we can agree or disagree. Here what you understand is just what you understand period. I don't think to agree or disagree here but am trying to tell the sangat that you have no support to negate Kabir Ji's thought from Guru Sahib who honored this Vaak to be part of Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Obviously what you understand is not Guru Message.

Regards
G Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥[/FONT]
Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.

PK70 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Can you please explain the above salok in english in your own words? What do you understand what Kabir ji is talking about?

Is a Sikh forbidden to do drugs,eat fish and drink alcohol?

Are all 3 things forbidden in Sikhi according to the above Salok?

Shine some Gurmat light on it.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

1. The First thing to be stressed is that GURBANI in SGGS is chosen by Guru Ji and has His stamp of approval. Thus there is NO SCOPE whatsoever for us sikhs to "reject/doubt/cast any sort of aspersion" on any Bani....that is in SGGS...or "double guess" intentions of the Bhagats/ doubt their beleifs.
I apologise in advance if i have misunderstood/misread anything.

2. "PAST LIFE" has got absolutley NOTHING to do in this aspect and has been REJECTED. Proof of this is
BHAI LEHNNA JI..Devi Bhagt for DECADES....becomes GURU ANGAD.
Bhai Amardass Ji... a REGULAR HINDU who viisted Hindu teeraths for most of his life..Became GURU AMARDASS JI. No one brings up this subject of their "Past Lives" or what they used to be...simply becasue it is Irrelevant. Same goes for the BHAGATS. We are only concerned with the GURBANI that they contributed to SGGS. Period.

3. This same "Past Life" ghost has been ressurected to "haunt" us in the case of Guru Gobind Singh Ji/Dushtdaman/etc. We must apply the same Standard. IF the Past Lives of Bhai lehnna Ji and Bhai Amardass Ji, Bhai Jetha Ji are IRRELEVANT ...even while in HUMAN FORM...there is no reason to bother about the "past life" that DIDNT even happen in this WORLD..and Goes against all Gurmatt Norms.
PLease DONT DIGRESS into this as this is just used as an example to illustrate point No. 2 above and no intention to begin discussing dsm garnth etc. Thanks to all.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥
Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.

PK70 ji,

Guru Fateh.

Can you please explain the above salok in english in your own words? What do you understand what Kabir ji is talking about?

Is a Sikh forbidden to do drugs,eat fish and drink alcohol?

Are all 3 things forbidden in Sikhi according to the above Salok?

Shine some Gurmat light on it.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Ji,
Gurfateh.

IMHO..the Salok must be read in context of the preceeding sloks. Here Kabeer Ji is talking about the "TIME" spent in the remembrance of the Creator...even a mere half blink of eye is enough..to merge with Him...Ek Gharree aadhee Gharee adhee...

Now what do Most persons do...Most spend majority of their "TIME" in Khao Peeoh ate Mauj Karo....in Kabeer Jis time..and Now adays..and will also in the Future.
These people are known as the "Khaan peen waleh"...and they spend their time at Fish andChips shops...drinking alcohol..enjoying their roasts ( Alcohol is NEVER drunk without the accompanying Roasted Meats/nuts/etc....99.9% of sherab shops have Chicken shops nearby..and rost chicken/roasted fish are always sold nearby)....and those into DRUGS..amoking POT marijuana..paan suparee kahyeh..etc...

NOW what happens later... Almost CERTAINLY these people will WITHOUT FAIL attend Mandir/Gurdwara on SUNDAY...and they will go to TEERATHS..to ask forgiveness...wash away their sins...etc etc..and then BACK to the Khaan Peen Walleh Company.

THIS is what Kabeer Ji is trying to TARGET. This is the ENVIRONMENT....endless ENJOYMENT in Food/DRINK.... and wilfull NEGLECT of TIME SPENT IN CREATORS NAAM MEDITATION....central thought that Kabir ji projecting.

The Following Sloks..Keso Keso kookeah...hair burning away like ghaas..grass..etc etc are all WARNING AGAINST WASTING TIME !!! LOOTna hai to Lot lai...etc etc...

IMHO Kabir Ji si trying to Give us two styles of living....
ONE is the Khaan Peen walleh..who devote entire day/weeks/months/years... to khanna peena mauj karo lifestyles....and once in a while visit Gurdawras teeraths...hoping to wash off their sins...
AND the second type who KESO KESO KOOKEAH....naam japan walleh....

DIET/MEAT/FISH/DAALs/vegetables/sarsohn da saag and ATTA etc is NOT the Central Subject of the Sloks..either in front of this line or those sloks following it. The Entire Group of Sloks muts be read in ONE GROUP...to see what Kabir Ji is trying to tell us so forcefully.

PS> I have put the KESO KESO KOOKEAH.. TUK of Kabir Ji in BOLD as the Clean Shavens NEVER quote/or even "look" at SUCH....simply because these types of TUKS DONT FIT in with their Anti-KESH viewpoint.....simply IGNORED. This is called SELECTIVE choice of TUKS. My view.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Ji,
Gurfateh.

IMHO..the Salok must be read in context of the preceeding sloks. Here Kabeer Ji is talking about the "TIME" spent in the remembrance of the Creator...even a mere half blink of eye is enough..to merge with Him...Ek Gharree aadhee Gharee adhee...

Now what do Most persons do...Most spend majority of their "TIME" in Khao Peeoh ate Mauj Karo....in Kabeer Jis time..and Now adays..and will also in the Future.
These people are known as the "Khaan peen waleh"...and they spend their time at Fish andChips shops...drinking alcohol..enjoying their roasts ( Alcohol is NEVER drunk without the accompanying Roasted Meats/nuts/etc....99.9% of sherab shops have Chicken shops nearby..and rost chicken/roasted fish are always sold nearby)....and those into DRUGS..amoking POT marijuana..paan suparee kahyeh..etc...

NOW what happens later... Almost CERTAINLY these people will WITHOUT FAIL attend Mandir/Gurdwara on SUNDAY...and they will go to TEERATHS..to ask forgiveness...wash away their sins...etc etc..and then BACK to the Khaan Peen Walleh Company.

THIS is what Kabeer Ji is trying to TARGET. This is the ENVIRONMENT....endless ENJOYMENT in Food/DRINK.... and wilfull NEGLECT of TIME SPENT IN CREATORS NAAM MEDITATION....central thought that Kabir ji projecting.

The Following Sloks..Keso Keso kookeah...hair burning away like ghaas..grass..etc etc are all WARNING AGAINST WASTING TIME !!! LOOTna hai to Lot lai...etc etc...

IMHO Kabir Ji si trying to Give us two styles of living....
ONE is the Khaan Peen walleh..who devote entire day/weeks/months/years... to khanna peena mauj karo lifestyles....and once in a while visit Gurdawras teeraths...hoping to wash off their sins...
AND the second type who KESO KESO KOOKEAH....naam japan walleh....

DIET/MEAT/FISH/DAALs/vegetables/sarsohn da saag and ATTA etc is NOT the Central Subject of the Sloks..either in front of this line or those sloks following it. The Entire Group of Sloks muts be read in ONE GROUP...to see what Kabir Ji is trying to tell us so forcefully.

PS> I have put the KESO KESO KOOKEAH.. TUK of Kabir Ji in BOLD as the Clean Shavens NEVER quote/or even "look" at SUCH....simply because these types of TUKS DONT FIT in with their Anti-KESH viewpoint.....simply IGNORED. This is called SELECTIVE choice of TUKS. My view.

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Exactly my thought. But the post by Pk70 ji's in response to Virinder Singh ji does not indicate that. That is the reason I asked.

One other example like the above can be given with the following on sggs 726:

ਪਾਨ ਸੁਪਾਰੀ ਖਾਤੀਆ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੀੜੀਆ ਲਾਈਆ ॥ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਜਮਿ ਪਕੜਿ ਚਲਾਈਆ ॥੧੩॥
Pān supārī kẖāṯī▫ā mukẖ bīṛī▫ā lā▫ī▫ā. Har har kaḏe na cẖeṯi▫o jam pakaṛ cẖalā▫ī▫ā. ||13||

Thanks for the clarification.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Tejwant Ji,
Gurfateh.
Then we will wait for PK70s clarifications of his views if any.

And yes i agree with the Tuk from "babarvani". This tuk is a "physical description" of the brides of the Lodhis who were living LAVISHLY. The stress is on LAVISH living and the way the rich lived lavishly was through endless smoking/and reddning their lips to look seductish/beautiful physically. It si NOT an edict agaisnt "smoking/eating paan/suparee/etc". I read soemwhere that the word "Beerree" is NOT what it means today.
Thank you.

 

[pk70]

ਕਬੀਰਭਾਂਗਮਾਛੁਲੀਸੁਰਾਪਾਨਿਜੋਜੋਪ੍ਰਾਨੀਖਾਂਹਿ

॥ਤੀਰਥਬਰਤਨੇਮਕੀਏਤੇਸਭੈਰਸਾਤਲਿਜਾਂਹਿ॥
Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.

PK70 ji,
Guru Fateh.
Can you please explain the above salok in english in your own words? What do you understand what Kabir ji is talking about?
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828
Is a Sikh forbidden to do drugs,eat fish and drink alcohol?
Are all 3 things forbidden in Sikhi according to the above Salok?
Shine some Gurmat light on it.

2.

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.
Exactly my thought. But the post by Pk70 ji's in response to Virinder Singh ji does not indicate that. That is the reason I asked.
One other example like the above can be given with the following on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 726
ਪਾਨਸੁਪਾਰੀਖਾਤੀਆਮੁਖਿਬੀੜੀਆਲਾਈਆ॥ ਹਰਿਹਰਿਕਦੇਨਚੇਤਿਓਜਮਿਪਕੜਿਚਲਾਈਆ॥੧੩॥
Pān supārī kẖāṯī▫ā mukẖ bīṛī▫ā lā▫ī▫ā. Har har kaḏe na cẖeṯi▫o jam pakaṛ cẖalā▫ī▫ā. ||13||
Thanks for the clarification.

Respected Gyani ji please accept my sincere thanks for to understanding the point I rose in my post(in which I didn’t address meat issue)

Vaheguru Seekr Ji,
First of all let me comment on your comment, “ shine some Gurmat light on it”
Gurmat is not in what you or I say, it is what Gurbani says, I pointed out to VSGREWAL ji that Bhagat Kabir Ji’s bani is honored by Guru ji and it has Guru ji’s backing, that’s all, Sikhs should believe in that Guru= support Kabir Ji has, instead of going back into his life as well expressed by Gyani ji in his post about the past. Literally I didn’t address the content of the Sloka because I was not into debating “meat Issue” but integrity of Bhagat Bani in context of SGGS Ji. Gyani ji understood that well.

If you allow, let me say that to understand Kabir Ji’s meaning of the sloka quoted above, one must start to read the previous Sloka by Kabir ji . Let’s contemplate on this

ਕਬੀਰ ਏਕ ਘੜੀ ਆਧੀ ਘਰੀ ਆਧੀ ਹੂੰ ਤੇ ਆਧ ॥ ਭਗਤਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਗੋਸਟੇ ਜੋ ਕੀਨੇ ਸੋ ਲਾਭ ॥੨੩੨॥
Kabīr ek gẖaṛī āḏẖī gẖarī āḏẖī hūʼn ṯe āḏẖ.nnBẖagṯan seṯī goste jo kīne so lābẖ. ||232||

In essence; company/talk with the devotees of the Creator for a moment or less is useful ( in context of realizing Him because in their company His praise will be the subject of the talk, it will inspire love for Him in the hearts contrary to the company of others who do not praise Him or contemplate on Him)

What Kabir ji is saying here is that to be in the company of His devotees is very useful for the soul to tread on His path even if it’s for a short time because it inspires the mind to turn towards Him. Question here is how we meet the devotees and how they accept us. They have their goal, they have purpose and they have their environment. In the following Sloka, Kabir Ji is pointing out those who go to the devotees but are more into their own pleasures as well. That won’t help, it is also important to change to be worthy of Him. The pleasures they are into, negate the good effect of company of the devotees and eventually effects of intoxication, fish will take over.
Dr Sahib Singh
ਹੇਕਬੀਰ ਚੂੰਕਿਦੁਨੀਆਦੇ "ਬਾਦਬਿਬਾਦ"
ਤੋਂਖ਼ਲਾਸੀਸਾਧੂਦੀਸੰਗਤਿਕੀਤਿਆਂਹੀਮਿਲਦੀਹੈ, ਇਸਵਾਸਤੇ ਇੱਕਘੜੀ, ਅੱਧੀਘੜੀ, ਘੜੀਦਾਚੌਥਾਹਿੱਸਾ-ਜਿਤਨਾਚਿਰਭੀਗੁਰਮੁਖਾਂਦੀਸੰਗਤਿਕੀਤੀਜਾਏ, ਇਸਤੋਂ ਆਤਮਕਜੀਵਨਵਿਚ ਨਫ਼ਾਹੀਨਫ਼ਾਹੈ।੨੩੨।

(Dr Sahib Singh Translation: Kabir (since only way to get out of affairs of arguments is through the company of His devotees), whatever time is available, a moment or half of it or less than should be spent in the Company of Gurmukh because it is useful for spiritually gain.)

Now lets look at that very Sloka under discussion
ਕਬੀਰਭਾਂਗਮਾਛੁਲੀਸੁਰਾਪਾਨਿਜੋਜੋਪ੍ਰਾਨੀਖਾਂਹਿ॥
ਤੀਰਥਬਰਤਨੇਮਕੀਏਤੇਸਭੈਰਸਾਤਲਿਜਾਂਹਿ॥੨੩੩॥
Kabīr bẖāʼng mācẖẖulī surā pān jo jo parānī kẖāʼnhi.
Ŧirath baraṯ nem kī▫e ṯe sabẖai rasāṯal jāʼnhi. ||233||

In essence “There are prople who take Bhang, eat Fish and drink, even if they do pilgrimage, fasting and daily rites, they will go into miseries (Hell, concept of Hell is to be in miseries)

This Slok is addressed to the people who are into lustrous habits and seek pleasures in eating fish, having bhang and alcohol; however, their acts of doing pilgrimages, fasting and other religious rites will not save them. Dr Sahib Singh further illustrates that Kabir ji is hinting at those people who remain into lustrous life style and are into intoxications, even if they go to the company of devotees, when they return, they again get into it and result of it they cannot have eternal peace as Devotees of Him have.

Dr Sahib Singh
ਹੇਕਬੀਰ ਜੇਲੋਕ 'ਭਗਤਨਸੇਤੀਗੋਸਟੇ]' ਕਰਕੇਤੀਰਥ-ਜਾਤ੍ਰਾਵਰਤ]-ਨੇਮਆਦਿਕਭੀਕਰਦੇਹਨਤੇਉਹਸ਼ਰਾਬੀਲੋਕਭੰਗਮੱਛੀਭੀਖਾਂਦੇਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਸਤਸੰਗਵਿਚਭੀਜਾਂਦੇਹਨਤੇਸ਼ਰਾਬ-ਕਬਾਬਭੀਖਾਂਦੇਪੀਂਦੇਹਨ, ਵਿਕਾਰਭੀਕਰਦੇਹਨ[) ਉਹਨਾਂਦੇਉਹਤੀਰਥਵਰਤਆਦਿਕਵਾਲੇਸਾਰੇਕਰਮਬਿਲਕੁਲਵਿਅਰਥਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।੨੩੩ਮੱਛੀਦਾਮਾਸਚੂੰਕਿਕਾਮ-ਰੁਚੀਵਧੀਕਪੈਦਾਕਰਨਵਿਚਪ੍ਰਸਿਧਹੈ, ਇਸਵਾਸਤੇਕਬੀਰਜੀਨੇਸ਼ਰਾਬਭੰਗਮੱਛੀਲਫ਼ਜ਼ਵਰਤੇਹਨ।
(Oh Kabir the people who after having sit with devotees of Him, go on pilgrimage, perform religious rites, and those drunkard also eat fish( means go to Sattsangat and drink and eat fish and indulge into vices) their going to pilgrimage and other religious rites are useless… Since fish is known to boost sexual desire that is why Kabir ji has used the words Bhang , alcohol and fish)

Your questions are answered in the elaboration.
Thanks.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

PK 70 Ji,
Gurfateh.

Thanks for reinforcing my lifelong mission to assert that the Sikh GURUS and the other contributors of the SGGS share an unbreakable BOND.- Nuhn Maas da Rishta Nail and Finger relationship. The entire 1429 angs of SGGS are ONE PHILOSOPHY/ONE THOUGHT...all the various shbads..the various authors all on ONE WAVELENGTH..one MAALA.

Any and all attempts at separation of the Gurus from the Bhagats/Bhatts/Sunder Ji etc MUST be resisted as these attempt to cause cracks in the INTEGRITY of the SGGS. Guru Arjun Ji must have gone through all the materilas with a very very fine toothed comb and His Final Choice is unassailable - unquestionable under any circumstances by anyone. The Hindalis tried to do thsi by adulterating hand written SGGS Birs...the Bhasaurrias tried it by simply REMOVING all Bhagat bani under the pretext of Separating "GENUINE GURUBANI" from "Bhagt bani -sunder jis bani- bhatt swaiyahs" Their pretext was that ONLY the SIKH GURU..could write GURBANI ( which they invented a new word called GURUBANI")
while it is clear that the SGGS being GURU..all the Bani in it is GURBANI. This argument is also faulty because FOUR GURUS never wrote any Bani...and thus their compositions are not in SGGS - YET the SGGS is OUR GURU NOW and it is the JYOT of ALL TEN GURUS. Thus we BOW to ALL GURBANI in SGGS irregardeless of who the author is. WE do not discrminate or treat the authors differently .:yes:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Gyani ji and Pk 70 ji,

Guru Fateh.

I totally agree with you that SGGS is from page 1 to 1430 and it is a whole. It should neither be separated nor contested in anyway. It is all one thought process. That is why our Gurus selected other people as contributors in the SGGS because they were all in tune with the same thought process. Hence, there must be some reason only known to our Gurus why they did not add Bhai Gurdas ji's poetry in SGGS.

Pk70 ji,

You write:

Vaheguru Seekr Ji,
First of all let me comment on your comment, “ shine some Gurmat light on it”
Gurmat is not in what you or I say, it is what Gurbani says,

I beg to differ with you. The opposite of Gurmat is Manmat, hence we can only shine what ours Gurus have bestowed upon us as their Gurmat not Manmat. Allow me to take your reasoning a bit further, then we can not say Gurmukh either and we know the opposite is Manmukh. Perhaps we have the same intentions but express it using different wordings which is ok with me.

Tejwant Singh

 

[kds1980]

Dr Sahib Singh
ਹੇਕਬੀਰ! ਜੇਲੋਕ 'ਭਗਤਨਸੇਤੀਗੋਸਟੇ' ਕਰਕੇਤੀਰਥ-ਜਾਤ੍ਰਾਵਰਤ-ਨੇਮਆਦਿਕਭੀਕਰਦੇਹਨਤੇਉਹਸ਼ਰਾਬੀਲੋਕਭੰਗਮੱਛੀਭੀਖਾਂਦੇਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਸਤਸੰਗਵਿਚਭੀਜਾਂਦੇਹਨਤੇਸ਼ਰਾਬ-ਕਬਾਬਭੀਖਾਂਦੇਪੀਂਦੇਹਨ, ਵਿਕਾਰਭੀਕਰਦੇਹਨ) ਉਹਨਾਂਦੇਉਹਤੀਰਥਵਰਤਆਦਿਕਵਾਲੇਸਾਰੇਕਰਮਬਿਲਕੁਲਵਿਅਰਥਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।੨੩੩ਮੱਛੀਦਾਮਾਸਚੂੰਕਿਕਾਮ-ਰੁਚੀਵਧੀਕਪੈਦਾਕਰਨਵਿਚਪ੍ਰਸਿਧਹੈ, ਇਸਵਾਸਤੇਕਬੀਰਜੀਨੇਸ਼ਰਾਬਭੰਗਮੱਛੀਲਫ਼ਜ਼ਵਰਤੇਹਨ। (Oh Kabir the people who after having sit with devotees of Him, go on pilgrimage, perform religious rites, and those drunkard also eat fish( means go to Sattsangat and drink and eat fish and indulge into vices) their going to pilgrimage and other religious rites are useless… Since fish is known to boost sexual desire that is why Kabir ji has used the words Bhang , alcohol and fish)
Your questions are answered in the elaboration.
Thanks.

Gyani surjit singh has written in an essay that maachchuli is word used for a type of Alchol and not for fish which was used at that time as the shabad is dealin with intoxicants.As far as fish is concerned For people that are living in coastal area or area with lot of ponds it is their primary source of food like a vegetable and there is no study that those people have more sexual desire than people living in other parts of world

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Yes I have read that article by Gyani Surjit Singh Ji. I beleive its available on the Sikh Marg ???? ???? webiste - in Punjabi only. But even if its another word for a drug ( I doubt Kabeer ji woull then repeat the same word by using "Bhang"...- anyway the Main CENTRAL THEME of the two sloks is about Company/time/spent in variosu pursuits..one in Good Company..other in Bad Company...Environment !!

 

[pk70]

Gyani surjit singh has written in an essay that maachchuli is word used for a type of Alchol and not for fish which was used at that time as the shabad is dealin with intoxicants.As far as fish is concerned For people that are living in coastal area or area with lot of ponds it is their primary source of food like a vegetable and there is no study that those people have more sexual desire than people living in other parts of world

People have a tendency to come up with new ideas about words. . 99% people wouldn’t have heard the name of that intoxicant the gentleman is talking about.
Try to understand what Dr Sahib Singh says. He is not talking about medical research based -facts but about commonplace assumption turned into a belief. Why Kabir ji would use all words for intoxicants only, Bhang and sura both represent usable and drinkable intoxicants and with it eating of fish is popular just as in many areas with meat alcohol goes., this word is “mashli means fish.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Meat in sikhism

There have been references to the Hukamnama of Guru Har Gobind from the book of Hukamnamas by Dr. Ganda Singh to the effect that the Gurus forbid the eating of meat. This Hukamnama have been annulled by the above references and he him self being a good hunter makes the document erroneous.




Virinder S. Grewal

I would go further and state the following facts:

1) Bhai Randhir Singh leader of the AKJ seems to have found this alleged hukamnama. As everyone knows he has an inherent bias on this subject. So I would question this miraculous finding of this hukamnama.

2) THe hukamnama to date has never been verified or accepted as factual by any Historians of note, infact any Historians.

3) It contradicts the Hukamnama's by Guru Gobind Singh Ji to the Sikhs of Kabul.

4) Dr Ganda Singh ji himself states it cannot be verified.

5) From recent readings I have ascertained something like 6 to 7 % of all Hukamnama's found have been verified and seen as genuine.

6) This goes against the character of Guru Hargobind Singh ji. I also don't buy this nonsense about giving Mukhti to animals. This Mukhti business contradicts Sikh teaching.

 

[Randip Singh]

I'm sorry friends, you have all fallen for the classic pitfall that 99% of Sikhs suffer from, and that is taking one line of shabad and trying to analyse it. Here is an extract from the fools who wrangle over flesh essay:


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mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat.
231
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.
khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.
kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240
dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.
kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241
har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.
tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242
kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked.
231
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.
Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.
Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240
Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.
Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?

Taking out the sentence we see ​

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One can therefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).
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What is being stated here is basically, do not take one line out of a shabad like this. This shabad is clearly about humility. Avoiding excess. I often use the word "Sharabi-Kababi" to describe my drinking relatives, who have over inflated ego's and show off with the amounts of alcohol they consume (not the amounts of Kebab's they eat), and varieties of food they have (including expensive vegetarian ones). It is just a phrase. Kabir ji clearly associated foods associated with rich, egotistical and idol people such as wine, bhang, fish. It is a metaphor. Kabir ji could easily have inserted Khohee dheee Barfee, but it would have been difficult to include it in the verse. It would not have been however, out of turn with this shabad.

There is ONLY one place where maas or meat is specifically refered to in Bani and there Guruji clearly states, do not argue about it.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Randip Ji,

PK 70 ji and myself have been saying that exactly. We are in no pitfall. And we didnt take the one liner approach at all. What you are saying is the Right explanation...and thanks for reinforcing it once more. Only the those who go for "superficial word for word translations and one liner appraoch" fall by the way.
Kabir Ji is indeed talking about the Life Style of the Rich and Famous..the Khaan peen waleh the indulging kind.//and contrasting with those who keep in the company of sadh sangat. I think we just said it in different words...

 

[lionheart]

Randip Singh jio... i read this post today... all of ur article is very well written and backed up with baanee... i just had a question about one of the excerpts...

HUKAMNAMA ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE 6TH MASTER

Some pro-vegetarian sections of the Sikh following have produced an alleged Hukamnama that states that the Sikhs of the East were not to go near meat. Unfortunately, the sources that have produced this Hukamnama, have not been able to back it up with any evidence of its genuineness, from any Sikh scholars of note. There have been statements to the effect that Ganda Singh found this document and indeed published it (Two collections of Hukamnamas are available in print form, one edited by Dr. Ganda Singh published in 1968 by Punjabi University and the S.G.P.C), but this has not been verified by any of his contemporaries or any other Sikh scholars..

Historical evidence, in fact contradicts what Guru Hargobind ji was actually like. He was an avid hunter and warrior. Again this fact some have tried to dismiss as Guruji giving Mukhti to animals souls. This, however, contradicts the Guru’s own philosophy which clearly states that only God is capable of granting such things.
Infact Bhai Gudas in his Vars States:

Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water
,
Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed
Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed
Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed
To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken
Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up.
Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13


First, I'm not attacking you in anyway... i just don't understand what you are trying to say and how the vaar that is mentioned relates to what you are saying in the highlighted paragraph. Also, I could be mistaken but I'm sure everyones heard of saakhees such as Mulla Khatri and others who were "liberated" by Guru Sahibaan but I do understand what you're saying that Guru Sahib says numerous times in Gurbanee that only Akaal Purkh has the power to do so. Are you saying that Akaal Purkh is acting through Guru Sahibaan? I was under the impression that we believe.. "gur parmesar eko jaan"..sorry for taking the one-liner approach but i'm sure u can look the shabad or must already know it...

again im not trynna disrespect u in anyway.. i actually appreciate wt u've done here... i think ppl need to come out of ther boxes n discover sikhi for wt it really is... im just trynna clarify this for myself... if u could help me out brother... also u may hav already clarified this in the 58 pages of this discussion but frankly i refuse to read all 58 pages of sometimes useless discussion..lol.. so i apologize in advance if thats the case... thanks

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip Singh jio... i read this post today... all of ur article is very well written and backed up with baanee... i just had a question about one of the excerpts...

HUKAMNAMA ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE 6TH MASTER

Some pro-vegetarian sections of the Sikh following have produced an alleged Hukamnama that states that the Sikhs of the East were not to go near meat. Unfortunately, the sources that have produced this Hukamnama, have not been able to back it up with any evidence of its genuineness, from any Sikh scholars of note. There have been statements to the effect that Ganda Singh found this document and indeed published it (Two collections of Hukamnamas are available in print form, one edited by Dr. Ganda Singh published in 1968 by Punjabi University and the S.G.P.C), but this has not been verified by any of his contemporaries or any other Sikh scholars..

Historical evidence, in fact contradicts what Guru Hargobind ji was actually like. He was an avid hunter and warrior. Again this fact some have tried to dismiss as Guruji giving Mukhti to animals souls. This, however, contradicts the Guru’s own philosophy which clearly states that only God is capable of granting such things.
Infact Bhai Gudas in his Vars States:

Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water
,
Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed
Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed
Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed
To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken
Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up.
Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13


First, I'm not attacking you in anyway... i just don't understand what you are trying to say and how the vaar that is mentioned relates to what you are saying in the highlighted paragraph. Also, I could be mistaken but I'm sure everyones heard of saakhees such as Mulla Khatri and others who were "liberated" by Guru Sahibaan but I do understand what you're saying that Guru Sahib says numerous times in Gurbanee that only Akaal Purkh has the power to do so. Are you saying that Akaal Purkh is acting through Guru Sahibaan? I was under the impression that we believe.. "gur parmesar eko jaan"..sorry for taking the one-liner approach but i'm sure u can look the shabad or must already know it...

again im not trynna disrespect u in anyway.. i actually appreciate wt u've done here... i think ppl need to come out of ther boxes n discover sikhi for wt it really is... im just trynna clarify this for myself... if u could help me out brother... also u may hav already clarified this in the 58 pages of this discussion but frankly i refuse to read all 58 pages of sometimes useless discussion..lol.. so i apologize in advance if thats the case... thanks

Firstly I cannot take the credit for the essay for it was a collaboration.

I think in Bani it says time and again that God is the creator and destroyer, we just watch the drama unfold.

Although our Guru's no doubt were one with God, I do not think they would ever try and do God like actions. I am from the group that thinks the Guru's did not do or perform miracles.

 

[lionheart]

Firstly I cannot take the credit for the essay for it was a collaboration.

I think in Bani it says time and again that God is the creator and destroyer, we just watch the drama unfold.

Although our Guru's no doubt were one with God, I do not think they would ever try and do God like actions. I am from the group that thinks the Guru's did not do or perform miracles.

thanks for the reply veer... but that still didn't answer my question abt the vaar and how its related to the portion highlighted in blue.. ?