aad ji,
sure why not. Please do that.
I posted it just for information purposes..as this Thread is read by many visitors.
sure why not. Please do that.
I posted it just for information purposes..as this Thread is read by many visitors.
Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
- Thread starter Randip Singh
- Start date
- Replies 1K
- Reads 368K
Re: Why Not Halal Meat?
Randip Singh Ji,
Sat sri Akal.
I have written in the starting of my reply "according to my point of view".
Obviously, everyone has their own point of view about different issues.
I think, you have much deeper understanding of gurbani. May be I do not have.
It is true that I am vegetarian and Sikh girl. Not Brahmin. I am proud to be a sikh.
Please explain to me the meaning of the following lines from Jap ji sahib...
"Asankh gal vadd hatteya kamaei".
Actually I think hatteya is killing of others (human or animal).
And at the end of pauri Guru ji says,
"Jo tud bhave saai bhali kar"
Whatever you(God) like, that is good.
May be I am wrong here also.
We can recite gurbani and be vegetarians only with Vaheguru blessings. I feel myself very lucky to be vegetarian because my soul do not allow me to eat egg and flesh.
Sadana was a butcher yet his Bani is included in the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Maybe that should be excluded according to your view.
I am nothing to say baani of someone should be excluded from Guru granth Sahib ji. Are you sure he ate meat?
Why our foundation is on Daya? Is khalsa is only for poor human beings not for poor animals like goat? According to my understanding we should not kill anybody (human or animal) who is not harmfull for us. But should speak against killers of innocents ( Delhi, 1984).
Please advice me accordingly.
Thanks,
Har13
Randip Singh Ji,
Sat sri Akal.
I have written in the starting of my reply "according to my point of view".
Obviously, everyone has their own point of view about different issues.
I think, you have much deeper understanding of gurbani. May be I do not have.
It is true that I am vegetarian and Sikh girl. Not Brahmin. I am proud to be a sikh.
Please explain to me the meaning of the following lines from Jap ji sahib...
"Asankh gal vadd hatteya kamaei".
Actually I think hatteya is killing of others (human or animal).
And at the end of pauri Guru ji says,
"Jo tud bhave saai bhali kar"
Whatever you(God) like, that is good.
May be I am wrong here also.
We can recite gurbani and be vegetarians only with Vaheguru blessings. I feel myself very lucky to be vegetarian because my soul do not allow me to eat egg and flesh.
Sadana was a butcher yet his Bani is included in the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Maybe that should be excluded according to your view.
I am nothing to say baani of someone should be excluded from Guru granth Sahib ji. Are you sure he ate meat?
Why our foundation is on Daya? Is khalsa is only for poor human beings not for poor animals like goat? According to my understanding we should not kill anybody (human or animal) who is not harmfull for us. But should speak against killers of innocents ( Delhi, 1984).
Please advice me accordingly.
Thanks,
Har13
Re: Why Not Halal Meat?
Sat sri Akal Randip Singh Ji,
Can you please suggest any site for sakhi of Sadana ji.
I read from some sites, it is written there that he was Butcher by his profession and he was thinking that his profession was according to God will.
But when he decided to meet God he left. And at one site it was written that when he went to kill goat, goat laughed at him and he couldn't kill him. Is this really true?
And we have bani of sufi muslim saints. I think they all follow daya not as rituel but as their soul was not allowing them. But other muslims eat halal. What is your point here that Sadna belongs to a butcher caste???? Did he eat meat then what about Muslim saints? Were they against our Guru's?
I am very younger than you in age and in thoughts.
Regards,
Har.
Sat sri Akal Randip Singh Ji,
Can you please suggest any site for sakhi of Sadana ji.
I read from some sites, it is written there that he was Butcher by his profession and he was thinking that his profession was according to God will.
But when he decided to meet God he left. And at one site it was written that when he went to kill goat, goat laughed at him and he couldn't kill him. Is this really true?
And we have bani of sufi muslim saints. I think they all follow daya not as rituel but as their soul was not allowing them. But other muslims eat halal. What is your point here that Sadna belongs to a butcher caste???? Did he eat meat then what about Muslim saints? Were they against our Guru's?
I am very younger than you in age and in thoughts.
Regards,
Har.
Re: Why Not Halal Meat?
Please cite the exact page number from Bani when you make a quotation and then we can discuss.
Well if you do not wish to eat meat and egg, that is your choice. Sikhi gives tou the freedom.
Great souls like Bhai Maskeen and Avtar Singh Brahman ate meat. It did not make them any less.
No if we logically follow your view that would be the conclusion. So should Bhaghat Farid who ate meat, Bhaghat Ravidas who killed animal and used their leather. Their are many more.
Would it matter if they did?
Many Sakhi's state that Guru Nank ate meat and fools wrangle over flesh was his response to Vege Vaishnav Bahmins. So does it matter?
Do not confuse Daya for Ahimsa. If we had followed the principle of Ahimsa, we would all be facing Mecca now.
Please cite the exact page number from Bani when you make a quotation and then we can discuss.
Well if you do not wish to eat meat and egg, that is your choice. Sikhi gives tou the freedom.
Great souls like Bhai Maskeen and Avtar Singh Brahman ate meat. It did not make them any less.
No if we logically follow your view that would be the conclusion. So should Bhaghat Farid who ate meat, Bhaghat Ravidas who killed animal and used their leather. Their are many more.
Would it matter if they did?
Many Sakhi's state that Guru Nank ate meat and fools wrangle over flesh was his response to Vege Vaishnav Bahmins. So does it matter?
Do not confuse Daya for Ahimsa. If we had followed the principle of Ahimsa, we would all be facing Mecca now.
Re: Why Not Halal Meat?
Antonia ji has added this but Sakhi's are unreliable.
You are talking about the Vaar by Bhai Gurdas.
Kabir was a Muslim who followed the Vaishnav path and was vegetarian
Bhaghat Fareed a devout Muslim who ate Halal meat.
Sadana a Hindu butcher who slaughtered animals.
Bhaghat Ravidas a tanner who slaughtered animals for leather.
All their Shabads are in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. What does that say to you? We follow the vaishno Vege path? The Muslim Halal path? or maybe the Dalit Hindu Path?
What is exactly Bani saying?
Guru Harkrishan was but a child, but he possesed the wisdom of Solomon, so age is not an issue.
Antonia ji has added this but Sakhi's are unreliable.
You are talking about the Vaar by Bhai Gurdas.
Kabir was a Muslim who followed the Vaishnav path and was vegetarian
Bhaghat Fareed a devout Muslim who ate Halal meat.
Sadana a Hindu butcher who slaughtered animals.
Bhaghat Ravidas a tanner who slaughtered animals for leather.
All their Shabads are in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. What does that say to you? We follow the vaishno Vege path? The Muslim Halal path? or maybe the Dalit Hindu Path?
What is exactly Bani saying?
Guru Harkrishan was but a child, but he possesed the wisdom of Solomon, so age is not an issue.
Sorry just a shabad I have been reading, I thought is best fitted here:
page 956
]ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:
ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
सच की काती सचु सभु सारु ॥
Sacẖ kī kāṯī sacẖ sabẖ sār.
The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.
ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
घाड़त तिस की अपर अपार ॥
Gẖāṛaṯ ṯis kī apar apār.
Its workmanship is incomparably beautiful.
ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥
सबदे साण रखाई लाइ ॥
Sabḏe sāṇ rakẖā▫ī lā▫e.
It is sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.
ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
गुण की थेकै विचि समाइ ॥
Guṇ kī thekai vicẖ samā▫e.
It is placed in the scabbard of virtue.
ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥
तिस दा कुठा होवै सेखु ॥
Ŧis ḏā kuṯẖā hovai sekẖ.
If the Shaykh is killed with that,
ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥
लोहू लबु निकथा वेखु ॥
Lohū lab nikthā vekẖ.
then the blood of greed will spill out.
ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
होइ हलालु लगै हकि जाइ ॥
Ho▫e halāl lagai hak jā▫e.
One who is slaughtered in this ritualistic way, will be attached to the Lord.
ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਦੀਦਾਰਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
नानक दरि दीदारि समाइ ॥२॥
Nānak ḏar ḏīḏār samā▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, at the Lord's door, he is absorbed into His Blessed Vision. ||2||
page 956
]ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:
ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
सच की काती सचु सभु सारु ॥
Sacẖ kī kāṯī sacẖ sabẖ sār.
The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.
ਘਾੜਤ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
घाड़त तिस की अपर अपार ॥
Gẖāṛaṯ ṯis kī apar apār.
Its workmanship is incomparably beautiful.
ਸਬਦੇ ਸਾਣ ਰਖਾਈ ਲਾਇ ॥
सबदे साण रखाई लाइ ॥
Sabḏe sāṇ rakẖā▫ī lā▫e.
It is sharpened on the grindstone of the Shabad.
ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਥੇਕੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
गुण की थेकै विचि समाइ ॥
Guṇ kī thekai vicẖ samā▫e.
It is placed in the scabbard of virtue.
ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥
तिस दा कुठा होवै सेखु ॥
Ŧis ḏā kuṯẖā hovai sekẖ.
If the Shaykh is killed with that,
ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥
लोहू लबु निकथा वेखु ॥
Lohū lab nikthā vekẖ.
then the blood of greed will spill out.
ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
होइ हलालु लगै हकि जाइ ॥
Ho▫e halāl lagai hak jā▫e.
One who is slaughtered in this ritualistic way, will be attached to the Lord.
ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਦੀਦਾਰਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
नानक दरि दीदारि समाइ ॥२॥
Nānak ḏar ḏīḏār samā▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, at the Lord's door, he is absorbed into His Blessed Vision. ||2||
Randip ji
Doesn't this shabad take us back to the core of the argument about "eating meat." The shabad is the explanation of the problem -- which has nothing to do with eating meat. The problem, that has confused people for a few centuries, has to do with overweening pride and self importance in the absence of empathy for one's fellow humans. The connections that are made between tuks here and words there and the forbidding of meat are far-fetched and outlandish but the music continues. Thanks for the shabad.
Doesn't this shabad take us back to the core of the argument about "eating meat." The shabad is the explanation of the problem -- which has nothing to do with eating meat. The problem, that has confused people for a few centuries, has to do with overweening pride and self importance in the absence of empathy for one's fellow humans. The connections that are made between tuks here and words there and the forbidding of meat are far-fetched and outlandish but the music continues. Thanks for the shabad.
Indeed yes. I just realised why this shabad fascinated me. It actually defines the word "Kutha" which is a bone of contention for some sects too:
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=956&english=t&id=41038#l41038
Page 956
ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥
तिस दा कुठा होवै सेखु ॥
Ŧis ḏā kuṯẖā hovai sekẖ.
If the Shaykh is killed with that,
ਲੋਹੂ ਲਬੁ ਨਿਕਥਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥
लोहू लबु निकथा वेखु ॥
Lohū lab nikthā vekẖ.
then the blood of greed will spill out.
ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
होइ हलालु लगै हकि जाइ ॥
Ho▫e halāl lagai hak jā▫e.
One who is slaughtered in this ritualistic way, will be attached to the Lord.
Several points to note:
1) If we took the sentence where the word "Kutha" is we would say, that word just means "Killed", however if we read on we see "One who is slaughtered in this ritualistic way". Meaning, that "Kutha" is seen as a form of ritualistic killing.
2) Note also "Halal" is defined as "slaughtered in this ritualistic way". Meaning that where "Halal" is used it can be seen as defining "ritualistic" killing.
3) This is nothing to do with meat eating as some people would have us believe but rather to do with the 5 thieves, in this instance "Lobh" or "Greed".
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FOOLS...usually AVOID such "Clear cut Shabads"....because they cut rather deep into their falsehood/foolish arguments....thats is why such shabads never come up in such debates/exchanges...
GURBANI has ALL the ANSWERS. Its we who fail to look/find/ask/query...
:whisling:
GURBANI has ALL the ANSWERS. Its we who fail to look/find/ask/query...
:whisling:
The very first comment by Randip Ji is very educational, even to me as I was once a fool who wrangled over flesh.. For me, the reason behind my "wrangling" was definitely a lack of knowledge, so when I sought supposedly factual answers from others, even they had a lack of knowledge caused by misinterpretation (to the exact quotes of bani n the first comment). This had been passed on and on by others, and so had eventually become a false fact.. It's just one or few persons "opinion" which becomes developed as a false fact and goes around through hearsay..
Even though, I've only learned today what the real explanations are, I've never used any quotes for evidence as to whether meat should be eaten or not.. Because later, I had discovered (as I'm sure I've mentioned before) the answers in Guru Granth Sahib Ji aren't simple, aren't black and white - if people have a lack of knowledge of Gurbani to begin with.. And that's how such misinterpretation through hearsay spreads..
Also, I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned, but I do know of another aspect which people misinterpret; an event where Guru Gobind Singh Ji used to go hunting.. I can only remember one incident when Guru Ji spotted a rabbit and instantly killed it. People tend to just think that's all there is to it, that Guru Ji's killed animals themselves and ate their meat. But with the incident of the rabbit, I remember that the soul in the rabbit was a man who had betrayed Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the earlier years. He used to do seva with Guru Nanak Dev Ji when they'd just met, much to his wife's dismay because Guru Ji and the man would go and do seva for years on, which the wife didn't like. I think she tried to stop him from going but he still wanted to but then she convinced him and then when Guru Ji came to his house to get him, his wife told him to hide in the back (where unkowingly a snake was present) and the wife told Guru Ji that he had gone.. During their conversation where the wife had lied to Guru Ji and the man was in the back, the snake had fatally bit him and I think he died. The wife suddenly knew why that'd happened and begged Guru Ji to forgive him and Guru Ji said he had to learn his mistake but he will come in his tenth form (as Guru Gobind Singh Ji) and will give him peace.
So the soul in the rabbit was that same man which betrayed Guru Nanak Dev Ji and so like He had said, this is why Guru Gobind Singh Ji killed the rabbit instantly to release his soul..
Oh and I've just found a site stating how people misinterpret Guru Ji's hunting and the fourth incident on there is the short yet more precise version of what I've just explained above..
http://www.panthkhalsa.org/rahit/rahit_hunt.php
Even though, I've only learned today what the real explanations are, I've never used any quotes for evidence as to whether meat should be eaten or not.. Because later, I had discovered (as I'm sure I've mentioned before) the answers in Guru Granth Sahib Ji aren't simple, aren't black and white - if people have a lack of knowledge of Gurbani to begin with.. And that's how such misinterpretation through hearsay spreads..
Also, I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned, but I do know of another aspect which people misinterpret; an event where Guru Gobind Singh Ji used to go hunting.. I can only remember one incident when Guru Ji spotted a rabbit and instantly killed it. People tend to just think that's all there is to it, that Guru Ji's killed animals themselves and ate their meat. But with the incident of the rabbit, I remember that the soul in the rabbit was a man who had betrayed Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the earlier years. He used to do seva with Guru Nanak Dev Ji when they'd just met, much to his wife's dismay because Guru Ji and the man would go and do seva for years on, which the wife didn't like. I think she tried to stop him from going but he still wanted to but then she convinced him and then when Guru Ji came to his house to get him, his wife told him to hide in the back (where unkowingly a snake was present) and the wife told Guru Ji that he had gone.. During their conversation where the wife had lied to Guru Ji and the man was in the back, the snake had fatally bit him and I think he died. The wife suddenly knew why that'd happened and begged Guru Ji to forgive him and Guru Ji said he had to learn his mistake but he will come in his tenth form (as Guru Gobind Singh Ji) and will give him peace.
So the soul in the rabbit was that same man which betrayed Guru Nanak Dev Ji and so like He had said, this is why Guru Gobind Singh Ji killed the rabbit instantly to release his soul..
Oh and I've just found a site stating how people misinterpret Guru Ji's hunting and the fourth incident on there is the short yet more precise version of what I've just explained above..
http://www.panthkhalsa.org/rahit/rahit_hunt.php
Hmmm.
panthkhalsa.org is a biased site. They are fanatically anti-meat and are run by the AKJ.
I don't buy this releasing of souls, and I will tell you why. The Guru's never interfered with God's will. They never brought people back to life, the never did miracles, and never released souls.
This rabbit story would imply that the Guru's were vengeful too, i.e. they took people lives for betraying them? I say NEVER!
Guru's did not even take vengeance on those that killed their family members, so why would they do this to a follower. When Guru Gobind Singh ji sent Bandha Bahadhur to punish Wazir Khan, he did not send him in revenge for what happened to the Sahibzadhey but for the depredations he was committing while the Emperor was stalling in negotiations. So I firmly believe it was not for releasing souls.
In any case who is to say that a person who is killing animal for food is not releasing the soul for a better life? This way at least the flesh is not wasted.
In Dasam Granth Guruji states:
ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI
ਰਾਜ ਸਾਜ ਹਮ ਪਰ ਜਬ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਜਥਾ ਸਕਤਿ ਤਬ ਧਰਮ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥
राज साज हम पर जब आयो ॥ जथा सकति तब धरम चलायो ॥
When I obtained the position of responsibility, I performed the religious acts to the best of my ability.
ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਨਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਮਾਰੇ ਰੀਛ ਰੋਝ ਝੰਖਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
भांति भांति बनि खेल सिकारा ॥ मारे रीछ रोझ झंखारा ॥१॥
I went hunting various kinds of animals in the forest and killed bears, nilgais (blue bulls) and elks.1.
ਦੇਸ ਚਾਲ ਹਮ ਤੇ ਪੁਨਿ ਭਈ ॥ ਸਹਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ਲਈ ॥
देस चाल हम ते पुनि भई ॥ सहर पांवटा की सुधि लई ॥
Then I left my home and went to place named Paonta.
ਕਾਲਿੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਤਟਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਲਾਸਾ ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਾਂਤ ਕੇ ਪੇਖਿ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥੨॥
कालिंद्री तटि करे बिलासा ॥ अनिक भांत के पेखि तमासा ॥२॥
I enjoyed my stay on the banks of Kalindri (Yamuna) and saw amusement of various kind2.
ਤਹ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਘ ਘਨੇ ਚੁਨਿ ਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਰੋਝ ਰੀਛ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥
तह के सिंघ घने चुनि मारे ॥ रोझ रीछ बहु भांति बिदारे ॥
There I killed may lions, nilgais and bears.
ਫਤੇਸਾਹ ਕੋਪਾ ਤਬਿ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਲੋਹ ਪਰਾ ਹਮ ਸੋ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਾਜਾ ॥੩॥
फतेसाह कोपा तबि राजा ॥ लोह परा हम सो बिनु काजा ॥३॥
On this the king Fateh Shah become angry and fought with me without any reason.3.
Guruji and his Sikhs killed these animals for the following reason:
1) Fierce animals that terrorised locals
2) Food
3) Train his Sikhs (hunting was used as a sport to train warriors)
AKJ (and other sects) always have to make spurious reasons up, when the obvious is staring them in the face.:whisling:
Randip Ji
I didn't know that, but I heard that story first off my brother, so then I tried to find a website stating that incident.
Randip Ji, I too say never. I didn't say or mean to portray that Guru Ji's were vengeful, as when I said the snake had bit the man, I didn't mean that Guru Ji ordered the snake to kill him or wanted to kill him. I thought it was more of.. God's will, let's say? So therefore, I agree that Guru Ji's didn't cause the death of the man, I'm merely pointing out that he had betaryed Guru Ji and the man had died.. I'm saying that was meant to happen, not that Guru Ji's killed people who betrayed them ect because what sort of Guru would encourage that behaviour for the future people; the future Sikhs.. Of course not our Gurus..
Apologies but I'm getting a bit confused here.. Before I continue, you're saying that you don't believe in this 'releasing of souls' so does that mean this rabbit incident is not true or it isn't true in relation to the fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji killed the rabbit to release it's soul?
I agree with you, however, (and this is just a thought) isn't it wrong for people to kill an animal to 'release' it's soul for a better life, as that'd mean they are interfering in God's will - because it's upto God to reincarnate a person as something (be it animal or human) depending on what good or bad deeds the person had done before he died?
I understand points 1 and 3 but point 2 means Guru Ji's ate the meat then? (I'm just enquiring.. I don't really read sites (apart from the one I included because it related to what I was saying) because I already made my decision based on my opinion of how I feel about this topic, a long time ago).
I didn't know that, but I heard that story first off my brother, so then I tried to find a website stating that incident.
Randip Ji, I too say never. I didn't say or mean to portray that Guru Ji's were vengeful, as when I said the snake had bit the man, I didn't mean that Guru Ji ordered the snake to kill him or wanted to kill him. I thought it was more of.. God's will, let's say? So therefore, I agree that Guru Ji's didn't cause the death of the man, I'm merely pointing out that he had betaryed Guru Ji and the man had died.. I'm saying that was meant to happen, not that Guru Ji's killed people who betrayed them ect because what sort of Guru would encourage that behaviour for the future people; the future Sikhs.. Of course not our Gurus..
Apologies but I'm getting a bit confused here.. Before I continue, you're saying that you don't believe in this 'releasing of souls' so does that mean this rabbit incident is not true or it isn't true in relation to the fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji killed the rabbit to release it's soul?
I agree with you, however, (and this is just a thought) isn't it wrong for people to kill an animal to 'release' it's soul for a better life, as that'd mean they are interfering in God's will - because it's upto God to reincarnate a person as something (be it animal or human) depending on what good or bad deeds the person had done before he died?
I understand points 1 and 3 but point 2 means Guru Ji's ate the meat then? (I'm just enquiring.. I don't really read sites (apart from the one I included because it related to what I was saying) because I already made my decision based on my opinion of how I feel about this topic, a long time ago).
You have made some very intelligent responses, and seem open minded.
I will tell you what was told to me when 25 years ago I used pose such questions.
1) Get some good Sikh books by noted scholars and intellectuals. I started with A History of the Sikh People by Dr Gopal Singh.
2) Have a look at sites like The Sikhism Home Page and Welcome to website about history of the sikhs .
3) Don't worry too much about what the Guru's ate or not. It will not make them any better or worse. Focus on their deeds and actions.
4) Try not to focus on Sakhi's too much. Most if not all were written around the late 18th and 19th century.
5) Also remember that about 60% of Sikh related sites on the internet are Jatha run.
best wishes:happy:
I agree, thank you for that, Randip Ji. By the way, so would you say books are more reliable than internet sites (which I find hard to figure out whether they are biased towards one view or not)?
And I strongly agree with all your points but mostly point 3 as, Guru Ji's were there to be our role model, our teacher, so it is important that we concentrate on their deeds and actions and try to follow those in our own lives.
And I strongly agree with all your points but mostly point 3 as, Guru Ji's were there to be our role model, our teacher, so it is important that we concentrate on their deeds and actions and try to follow those in our own lives.
Start off with a good grounding with Dr Gopal Singh's book.......you will be able to spot which maybe biased.
3 main areas or views:
1) The Mcleodian's - they seem to ignore important documents like Varan Bhai Gurdas. Mcleod tends to be very pro-Jatt. His followers too.
2) Jatha followers - I have come across a few like Bhai Randhir Singh's book, which make some strange claims.
3) Genuine Sikh Scholars - Chandigarh University, Guru Nanak University etc. www.globalsikhstudies.net is a decent place.
Own role models, also realise the unimportance of both vegetarianism and meat eating in relation to Sikhi.
From wikipedia, quite interesting and relevant.
Re: Meat and Eggs
I want to reply on the following comment:
"Meat and Eggs
Except my father, we as a family don't eat meat or eggs. I know that the Guru Granth doesn't talk much about meat/eggs. If anyone can express there Philosopy on it, I would appericiate it."
I guess you are not aware that Guru Granth Sahib Ji talks about not eating meat and alcohol. Sri Guru Granth Sahib prohibits eating animal flesh in clear-cut and unambiguous language in a number of places.
Please read the following shabads and the panna and its meaning is also given along with them...
"Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar Thaapoh, Adharam Kaho Kat Bhai.
Anpas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh, Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee." (Panna 1103)
You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)? Even then you
consider yourself as a sage of sages; then whom to call a butcher?
"Bed Parhey Mukh Mitthee Baani.
Jeeaan KUHAT Na Sangey Paraanee" (Panna 201)
He (Pandit) recites the Vedas very sweetly, but he does not hesitate to kill life.
"Abhakhya Ka Kuthha Bakra Khanaa.
Choukay Upar Kisey Na Jaanaa" (Panna 472)
They eat the meat obtained while uttering the unspeakable word (referring to Qalima of the Muslims which the hindus considered as unspeakable) and allow none to enter their kitchen square.
"Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, jhoothhaa jo Na Bichaarey.
Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudai Kahat Ho, Tio Kio Murghi Maarey" (Panna 1350)
Do not call various religious texts false. False is one who gives no thought to their contents. If you consider God is in all, then why you slaughter the chicken (i.e. life?)
"Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey.
Aapaa Deldi Avar Nahin Dekhey, Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey" (Panna 1375)
You keep fasts (i.e. religious acts) to appease God. At the same time you slay life for your relish. This utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.
"Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar, Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal.
Dafter Daee Jab Kaadh Hai, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal" (Panna 1375)
Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?
"Kabir Khoob Khanna Khichri, Ja Meh Amrit Lon Heraa
rotee Kaarney Galaa Kataavey Kon" (Panna 1374)
Blessed is the simple of food of rice mixed with salt; Who would risk his head to be slain hereafter, for the meat one eats here?
"Kabir Bhaang, Mach Iiii Surapaan Jo Jo Praanee Khahey.
Tirath, Barat, Nem Kiaye Te Sabhay Rasaatal Jahey" (Panna 1377)
Whosoever eats flesh, fish, etc. and takes wine and hemp, all his religious acts will go to waste.
I hope the above shabads will answer your question.
Gur Fateh!
Binwant
I want to reply on the following comment:
"Meat and Eggs
Except my father, we as a family don't eat meat or eggs. I know that the Guru Granth doesn't talk much about meat/eggs. If anyone can express there Philosopy on it, I would appericiate it."
I guess you are not aware that Guru Granth Sahib Ji talks about not eating meat and alcohol. Sri Guru Granth Sahib prohibits eating animal flesh in clear-cut and unambiguous language in a number of places.
Please read the following shabads and the panna and its meaning is also given along with them...
"Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar Thaapoh, Adharam Kaho Kat Bhai.
Anpas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh, Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee." (Panna 1103)
You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)? Even then you
consider yourself as a sage of sages; then whom to call a butcher?
"Bed Parhey Mukh Mitthee Baani.
Jeeaan KUHAT Na Sangey Paraanee" (Panna 201)
He (Pandit) recites the Vedas very sweetly, but he does not hesitate to kill life.
"Abhakhya Ka Kuthha Bakra Khanaa.
Choukay Upar Kisey Na Jaanaa" (Panna 472)
They eat the meat obtained while uttering the unspeakable word (referring to Qalima of the Muslims which the hindus considered as unspeakable) and allow none to enter their kitchen square.
"Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, jhoothhaa jo Na Bichaarey.
Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudai Kahat Ho, Tio Kio Murghi Maarey" (Panna 1350)
Do not call various religious texts false. False is one who gives no thought to their contents. If you consider God is in all, then why you slaughter the chicken (i.e. life?)
"Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey.
Aapaa Deldi Avar Nahin Dekhey, Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey" (Panna 1375)
You keep fasts (i.e. religious acts) to appease God. At the same time you slay life for your relish. This utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.
"Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar, Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal.
Dafter Daee Jab Kaadh Hai, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal" (Panna 1375)
Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?
"Kabir Khoob Khanna Khichri, Ja Meh Amrit Lon Heraa
rotee Kaarney Galaa Kataavey Kon" (Panna 1374)
Blessed is the simple of food of rice mixed with salt; Who would risk his head to be slain hereafter, for the meat one eats here?
"Kabir Bhaang, Mach Iiii Surapaan Jo Jo Praanee Khahey.
Tirath, Barat, Nem Kiaye Te Sabhay Rasaatal Jahey" (Panna 1377)
Whosoever eats flesh, fish, etc. and takes wine and hemp, all his religious acts will go to waste.
I hope the above shabads will answer your question.
Gur Fateh!
Binwant
Re: Meat and Eggs
No it does not!
Wrong on all accounts.
Typical one liners and mistranslations. See this:
FOREWARD
The authors of this paper (one a vegetarian and one meat eating Sikh) wrangled hard with their own common sense which told them, dont be a fool and start wrangling over an issue which our great Gurus dismissed as not worthy of discussion. We did however feel as amateur Sikh Historians and commentators on Sikh affairs that we should use our knowledge and experience to clarify what is such a controversial issue. This essay out to be objective as possible but we ourselves probably taking one side as we waded through the arguments and counter arguments produced by vegetarian and meat eating Sikhs. One thing that has incensed us is the use of incorrect History and mistranslation to back up arguments. It was these points that we felt needed clarification and we hope the reader will find that this essay does that.
Mistranslation and Misrepresentation of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Some of the tukhs of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that are often mistranslated are as follows:
1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1377)
2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)
3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)
4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)
5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)
6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)
7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat.
(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)
In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:
mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat.
231
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.
khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.
kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240
dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.
kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241
har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.
tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242
kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked.
231
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.
Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.
Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240
Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.
Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:
kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.
bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).
2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)
Again let us put this into its correct context:
ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.
jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee.
pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee.
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828 (Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh)
mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee.
kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. rahaa-o.
maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee.
aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee.
sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree.
raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree.
dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa.
kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.
Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up?
If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!
Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found?Pause
Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.
Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want.
You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.
You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean.
You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.
Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20of%20Passage/ancestors2.html) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.
3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)
Again, let us put this into context:
bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai.
mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.
tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. rahaa-o.
pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.
jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa.
ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.
ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa.
tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.
kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa.
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?
O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?
The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. Pause
You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.
The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed?
And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?
Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca?
You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.
Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
First point to note is that halaal and bismil, does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter. Put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate Gods asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul wont travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.
4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)
Let us add this to the correct context:
oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.
kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.
divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.
The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served â€"
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.
5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)
Again, let us put this into context:
salok mehlaa 1.
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.
Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.
The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.
6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.
(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24
Let us again see this in context:
sireeraag mehlaa 1 ghar 4.
ayk su-aan du-ay su-aanee naal.
bhalkay bha-ukahi sadaa ba-i-aal.
koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.
Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.
mai pat kee pand na karnee kee kaar.
ha-o bigrhai roop rahaa bikraal.
tayraa ayk naam taaray sansaar.
mai ayhaa aas ayho aaDhaar. rahaa-o.
mukh nindaa aakhaa din raat.
par ghar johee neech sanaat.
kaam kroDh tan vaseh chandaal.
Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.
faahee surat malookee vays.
ha-o thagvaarhaa thagee days.
kharaa si-aanaa bahutaa bhaar.
Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.
mai keetaa na jaataa haraamkhor.
ha-o ki-aa muhu daysaa dusat chor.
naanak neech kahai beechaar.
Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:
The dogs of greed are with me.
In the early morning, they continually bark at the wind.
Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
I have not followed good advice, nor have I done good deeds.
I am deformed and horribly disfigured.
Your Name alone, Lord, saves the world.
This is my hope; this is my support. Pause
With my mouth I speak slander, day and night.
I spy on the houses of others-I am such a wretched low-life!
Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
I make plans to trap others, although I appear gentle.
I am a robber-I rob the world.
I am very clever-I carry loads of sin.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; I take from others and exploit them.
What face shall I show You, Lord? I am a sneak and a thief.
Nanak describes the state of the lowly.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Again this is similar to the above translated Shabad. The Guru is clearly making an analogy between people who are acting like dogs. He is even saying that they are barking like dogs.
koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.
Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Again Murdaar does not mean meat at all. Murdaar refers to dead people, and how people are literally fighting over one another to get what they think is theirs. They are so consumed with greed and selfishness that they care not for one another, clearly nothing to do with meat eating.
7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)
Let us put this last shabad in context with its correct translation:
sireeraag mehlaa 1.
lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.
par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal.
ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar.
baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay.
ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay. rahaa-o.
ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas.
ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas.
aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas.
jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan.
fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan.
jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan.
tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay.
tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay.
naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay.
Siree Raag, First Mehl: Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.
Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.
I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator!
O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.
They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep.
The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,
the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of hearty meals â€"
these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart?
Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.
Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!
Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said?
Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.
What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?
O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name.
Sry Guru Granth Sahib ji
Again clearly a mistranslation and mischief making on the part of someone who wishes to convey a certain message.
lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.
Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.
Sry Guru Granth Sahib ji
Again Murdaar is not Meat but is dead people. The entire Ang is talking about people who fall prey to the 5 thieves, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.
MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION
There are several reasons behind why these mistranslations and misrepresentations have occurred:
· The publishers have a lack of education and do not understand the meaning of words in Gurmukhi and the correct translation into English.
· In their eagerness to promote their own brand of Sikhism (Sant, Jatha etc) they have deliberately allowed mistranslation and misrepresentation.
· Genuine abhorrence of killing animals can be a motivation too (eg those people that believe in Animal Rights), however Sikhism should not be used as a tool to promote such agendas.
· Poor knowledge of history and the context in which the Gurus and Bhaghats wrotes these Angs is a factor too. This can lead to a misrepresentation.
· In conclusion one can only say that it is very important that Sikh institution promote a clear and concise programme where only those with a certain amount of knowledge in Sikh History and the Sikh Language, should be officially sanctioned as being translators for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT - ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.
The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.
On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:
ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?
The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:
sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.
har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.
jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.
mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.
lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.
First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.
No it does not!
Wrong on all accounts.
Typical one liners and mistranslations. See this:
FOREWARD
The authors of this paper (one a vegetarian and one meat eating Sikh) wrangled hard with their own common sense which told them, dont be a fool and start wrangling over an issue which our great Gurus dismissed as not worthy of discussion. We did however feel as amateur Sikh Historians and commentators on Sikh affairs that we should use our knowledge and experience to clarify what is such a controversial issue. This essay out to be objective as possible but we ourselves probably taking one side as we waded through the arguments and counter arguments produced by vegetarian and meat eating Sikhs. One thing that has incensed us is the use of incorrect History and mistranslation to back up arguments. It was these points that we felt needed clarification and we hope the reader will find that this essay does that.
Mistranslation and Misrepresentation of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Some of the tukhs of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that are often mistranslated are as follows:
1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1377)
2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)
3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)
4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)
5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)
6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)
7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat.
(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Let us analyse each one of these one by one.
1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)
In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:
mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat.
231
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.
khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.
kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240
dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.
kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241
har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.
tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242
kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked.
231
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.
Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.
Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240
Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.
Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?
Taking out the sentence we see
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:
kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.
bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).
2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)
Again let us put this into its correct context:
ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.
jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee.
pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee.
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828 (Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh)
mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee.
kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. rahaa-o.
maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee.
aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee.
sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree.
raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree.
dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa.
kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.
Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up?
If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!
Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found?Pause
Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.
Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want.
You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.
You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean.
You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.
Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20of%20Passage/ancestors2.html) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.
3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)
Again, let us put this into context:
bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai.
mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.
tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. rahaa-o.
pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.
jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa.
ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.
ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa.
tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.
kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa.
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?
O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?
The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. Pause
You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.
The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed?
And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?
Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca?
You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.
Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
First point to note is that halaal and bismil, does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter. Put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate Gods asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul wont travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.
4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)
Let us add this to the correct context:
oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.
kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.
divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.
The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served â€"
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.
5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)
Again, let us put this into context:
salok mehlaa 1.
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.
Shalok, First Mehl:
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.
The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.
6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.
(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24
Let us again see this in context:
sireeraag mehlaa 1 ghar 4.
ayk su-aan du-ay su-aanee naal.
bhalkay bha-ukahi sadaa ba-i-aal.
koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.
Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.
mai pat kee pand na karnee kee kaar.
ha-o bigrhai roop rahaa bikraal.
tayraa ayk naam taaray sansaar.
mai ayhaa aas ayho aaDhaar. rahaa-o.
mukh nindaa aakhaa din raat.
par ghar johee neech sanaat.
kaam kroDh tan vaseh chandaal.
Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.
faahee surat malookee vays.
ha-o thagvaarhaa thagee days.
kharaa si-aanaa bahutaa bhaar.
Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.
mai keetaa na jaataa haraamkhor.
ha-o ki-aa muhu daysaa dusat chor.
naanak neech kahai beechaar.
Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:
The dogs of greed are with me.
In the early morning, they continually bark at the wind.
Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
I have not followed good advice, nor have I done good deeds.
I am deformed and horribly disfigured.
Your Name alone, Lord, saves the world.
This is my hope; this is my support. Pause
With my mouth I speak slander, day and night.
I spy on the houses of others-I am such a wretched low-life!
Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
I make plans to trap others, although I appear gentle.
I am a robber-I rob the world.
I am very clever-I carry loads of sin.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; I take from others and exploit them.
What face shall I show You, Lord? I am a sneak and a thief.
Nanak describes the state of the lowly.
I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Again this is similar to the above translated Shabad. The Guru is clearly making an analogy between people who are acting like dogs. He is even saying that they are barking like dogs.
koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.
Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Again Murdaar does not mean meat at all. Murdaar refers to dead people, and how people are literally fighting over one another to get what they think is theirs. They are so consumed with greed and selfishness that they care not for one another, clearly nothing to do with meat eating.
7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)
Let us put this last shabad in context with its correct translation:
sireeraag mehlaa 1.
lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.
par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal.
ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar.
baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay.
ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay. rahaa-o.
ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas.
ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas.
aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas.
jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan.
fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan.
jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan.
tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay.
tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay.
naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay.
Siree Raag, First Mehl: Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.
Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.
I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator!
O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.
They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep.
The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,
the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of hearty meals â€"
these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart?
Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.
Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!
Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said?
Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.
What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?
O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name.
Sry Guru Granth Sahib ji
Again clearly a mistranslation and mischief making on the part of someone who wishes to convey a certain message.
lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.
Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.
Sry Guru Granth Sahib ji
Again Murdaar is not Meat but is dead people. The entire Ang is talking about people who fall prey to the 5 thieves, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.
MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION
There are several reasons behind why these mistranslations and misrepresentations have occurred:
· The publishers have a lack of education and do not understand the meaning of words in Gurmukhi and the correct translation into English.
· In their eagerness to promote their own brand of Sikhism (Sant, Jatha etc) they have deliberately allowed mistranslation and misrepresentation.
· Genuine abhorrence of killing animals can be a motivation too (eg those people that believe in Animal Rights), however Sikhism should not be used as a tool to promote such agendas.
· Poor knowledge of history and the context in which the Gurus and Bhaghats wrotes these Angs is a factor too. This can lead to a misrepresentation.
· In conclusion one can only say that it is very important that Sikh institution promote a clear and concise programme where only those with a certain amount of knowledge in Sikh History and the Sikh Language, should be officially sanctioned as being translators for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT - ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.
The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.
On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:
ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
Reading this Shabad one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states:
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?
The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:
sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.
har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.
jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.
mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.
lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.
First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.
Last edited:
- Jun 7, 2006
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<< the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.>>
Spot on Randip ji
same question arises...
what would an Inuit Sikh eat ?
Spot on Randip ji
same question arises...
what would an Inuit Sikh eat ?
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