Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Sinister]

same question arises...

detwhat would an Inuit Sikh eat ?

anything but deleted snow. :ice:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

IMPORTED SAAG ??:happy:

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<IMPORTED SAAG ??>>

lol

for sure

if the standard bearers of Punjabisation of Sikhi have their way.

i am sure a few years from now that might be made the "sikh" food... lol

 

[Randip Singh]

<< the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.>>

Spot on Randip ji

same question arises...

what would an Inuit Sikh eat ?

Snow

It is sad that one of the most logical (if not the most religions), in the world is denigrated to an a la carte menu.

 

[Randip Singh]

This book here:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/books-on-sikhism/26134-philosophy-of-guru-granth-sahib.html

There is a chapter on Gurmat and Meat and clarifies this issue once and for all in a direct and concise way, and puts the Bhai's and Sant's to bed who make vegetarianism as issue.

One gets the impression that in Hindu Society, Vaishnavism is the dominant cult, and in order o capture Vaishno type followers into Sant/Bhai cults one has to say yes to this issue, even though Sikhism states the complete opposite.

I would seriously recommend buying it.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Not that which goes in to the mouth defileth an individual (Except substances affecting the mind-Guru Nanak-Siri Raag) but that comes out of the mouth does defileth him/her.

Virinder

 

[Randip Singh]

Not that which goes in to the mouth defileth an individual (Except substances affecting the mind-Guru Nanak-Siri Raag) but that comes out of the mouth does defileth him/her.

Virinder

Nice point Virinder ji,

and apologies if anything untoward has come out of my mouth.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Randip Ji,

It was a point which I learnt when Bhagat Ramanand switched from an idolater to monotheistic. He was 4rth in succession of Ramanuj and just want to share with the members.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Randip Singh]

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat.
231
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.
khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.
kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240
dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.
kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241
har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.
tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242
kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked.
231
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.
Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.
Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240
Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.
Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?

Taking out the sentence we see ​

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

Hi all,

I think from the above shabad it is pretty well established that this shabad is about "pleasure and excess" and not meat, but from the above mentioned book it states, that the reason for this line:

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

is that Bhang, alcohol and fish are sexual stimulants. That is why Kabir ji states:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243

In effect this shabad is about "Kaam".

I knew Bhaang and Alcohol were used as sexual stimulants, but I have just done a Google search and found several links to fish being a sexual stimulant too. I never realised this before.

 

[Randip Singh]

I think Sant Maskeen ji's view on this :

YouTube - Maas Maas kar moorakh jhagre - Giani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen 03/08

 

[spnadmin]

Randip ji

Yes! Si! Biensure!

It is moments like this which make the entire debate on this matter seem as if several centuries of confusion have tangled many brains. Tangle to rhyme with Wrangle.

Do you realize that there is a thread in this forum describing how a Sikh of some fame had to explain to his critics that it is OK to eat an egg. In order to pacify them, tongue in cheek of course, he pointed out that every egg that was ever eaten --- well you have to "jatka" an egg to eat it. That is how bad this can get.

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip ji

Yes! Si! Biensure!

It is moments like this which make the entire debate on this matter seem as if several centuries of confusion have tangled many brains. Tangle to rhyme with Wrangle.

Do you realize that there is a thread in this forum describing how a Sikh of some fame had to explain to his critics that it is OK to eat an egg. In order to pacify them, tongue in cheek of course, he pointed out that every egg that was ever eaten --- well you have to "jatka" an egg to eat it. That is how bad this can get.

Penji,

These are the same lunatics who think that an egg (unfertilised) can become a chicken!! LOL cheerleader

 

[PapaDan]

Hello , Greetings , Sat Sri Akaal , Namaste

It's All About Love ......Period . please let me explain :

Food wonderful food , vegetable, animal and mineral are all gifts of the divine , just as you are .

First things First .

Everything and i mean Everything is a part of Creation and thus part of the Divine .
everything you see and everything you cant see is all creation and part of the divine .

Everything in this multiverse and everything inside the 13 known dimentions , including this one (3rd) is alive , meaning it has a spirit , a soul , it is living consciousness , every being and entity is spiritual consciousness and part of the divine , a piece of love and respect .
It is important to remember this in all things , that everything is spiritually alive and deserves our respect and gratitude , especially food and where it comes from .

before we manifested into these physical bodies, we were all part of a spiritual collective of beings inside a portion of creation .
Not all the beings in this collective have chosen to incarnate at this time along with us, some have stayed back to help guide us and provide things for us while we are here on our physical journey .

One of the ways these fellow beings of love provide for us is my manifesting themselves into vegetation and animals that sacrifice themselves for our wellbeing by the way of donating their physical bodies for us to consume .
Every bite of any form of food is a gift to you from the divine provided for you by your fellow spiritual beings and others to help sustain you in this physical journey .
They have agreed to do this prior to you manifesting onto the planet just as you have agreed to be the entity that manifests here in their place .

i know its an odd thought to get used to when you consider that you may have eaten the donated physical remains of spiritual friends and guides more times than you can count and the only reason they do it is because they love you and support you .
but once you get used to the idea, its really rather liberating and exciting to see all those extra ways in which love is shown to you and provided to you that you hadn't seen in that way before .

They are there in love to help you and support you , guide you , love you and learn from your experiences as you travel this cycle of incarnation .

The Earth is a huge entity that also helps provide for the beings that are trying to provide for you as well .
The Earth provides water for them to drink and other foods as they grow for your benefit , the earth provides the soil that the vegetation uses to grow the crops that help sustain you as well .

It's all a huge cycle of love from all of Creation that sustains you .
Every water drop , Every air particle, Every particle of dust or dirt and every light particle serves its purpose .
Every vegetable, animal , fish , mineral(vitamins) etc... ITS ALL FOR YOU !

High level spiritual beings suggest you can eat anything that brings your body energy , healing and joy , or all the above .
they also suggest the following as well .

Oxygen : oxygenate yourselves when you can , breathe correctly , some suggest breathing exercises , don't breathe toxins

Hydration : keep yourself hydrated , you are mostly made of water so drink it often , as pure as you can get it , be it filtered, ozonated or natural filtering like springs etc...

Food : small portions , several times a day , as toxin free as possible , not just chemical toxins but free of harmful ingredients as well .such as sugar , you may want to try stevia or truvia instead . try to eat natural foods and as few processed foods as possible .

other tips include : reduce stress , exercise , rest often and allow expression .


These anonymous and not so anonymous spiritual beings are all here and in action to show their love and support for you .
Please say thank you often .
Please show gratitude often .

If you can , please get into a meditative state and send these beings of love some love of your own and show them how much you appreciate all creation has done for you even if some of that creation was done one bite at a time .

You all are wonderful Spiritual beings , and so are they and they love you !

As i said at the beginning of my post , its all about love , thats all its ever been about , in a variety of different aspects , since the dawn of time , but all true true love .

Sat Sri Akaal , Namaste , Bye

PapaDan

 

[Randip Singh]

Hello , Greetings , Sat Sri Akaal , Namaste

It's All About Love ......Period . please let me explain :

Food wonderful food , vegetable, animal and mineral are all gifts of the divine , just as you are .

First things First .

Everything and i mean Everything is a part of Creation and thus part of the Divine .
everything you see and everything you cant see is all creation and part of the divine .

Everything in this multiverse and everything inside the 13 known dimentions , including this one (3rd) is alive , meaning it has a spirit , a soul , it is living consciousness , every being and entity is spiritual consciousness and part of the divine , a piece of love and respect .
It is important to remember this in all things , that everything is spiritually alive and deserves our respect and gratitude , especially food and where it comes from .

before we manifested into these physical bodies, we were all part of a spiritual collective of beings inside a portion of creation .
Not all the beings in this collective have chosen to incarnate at this time along with us, some have stayed back to help guide us and provide things for us while we are here on our physical journey .

One of the ways these fellow beings of love provide for us is my manifesting themselves into vegetation and animals that sacrifice themselves for our wellbeing by the way of donating their physical bodies for us to consume .
Every bite of any form of food is a gift to you from the divine provided for you by your fellow spiritual beings and others to help sustain you in this physical journey .
They have agreed to do this prior to you manifesting onto the planet just as you have agreed to be the entity that manifests here in their place .

i know its an odd thought to get used to when you consider that you may have eaten the donated physical remains of spiritual friends and guides more times than you can count and the only reason they do it is because they love you and support you .
but once you get used to the idea, its really rather liberating and exciting to see all those extra ways in which love is shown to you and provided to you that you hadn't seen in that way before .

They are there in love to help you and support you , guide you , love you and learn from your experiences as you travel this cycle of incarnation .

The Earth is a huge entity that also helps provide for the beings that are trying to provide for you as well .
The Earth provides water for them to drink and other foods as they grow for your benefit , the earth provides the soil that the vegetation uses to grow the crops that help sustain you as well .

It's all a huge cycle of love from all of Creation that sustains you .
Every water drop , Every air particle, Every particle of dust or dirt and every light particle serves its purpose .
Every vegetable, animal , fish , mineral(vitamins) etc... ITS ALL FOR YOU !

High level spiritual beings suggest you can eat anything that brings your body energy , healing and joy , or all the above .
they also suggest the following as well .

Oxygen : oxygenate yourselves when you can , breathe correctly , some suggest breathing exercises , don't breathe toxins

Hydration : keep yourself hydrated , you are mostly made of water so drink it often , as pure as you can get it , be it filtered, ozonated or natural filtering like springs etc...

Food : small portions , several times a day , as toxin free as possible , not just chemical toxins but free of harmful ingredients as well .such as sugar , you may want to try stevia or truvia instead . try to eat natural foods and as few processed foods as possible .

other tips include : reduce stress , exercise , rest often and allow expression .


These anonymous and not so anonymous spiritual beings are all here and in action to show their love and support for you .
Please say thank you often .
Please show gratitude often .

If you can , please get into a meditative state and send these beings of love some love of your own and show them how much you appreciate all creation has done for you even if some of that creation was done one bite at a time .

You all are wonderful Spiritual beings , and so are they and they love you !

As i said at the beginning of my post , its all about love , thats all its ever been about , in a variety of different aspects , since the dawn of time , but all true true love .

Sat Sri Akaal , Namaste , Bye

PapaDan

Thanks for sharing some profound thoughts welcomemunda

 

[be_still]

I really enjoyed this post, but to agrue about the veggie vs. meat... if all humans were vegetarians, and animals were not killed for their meat, wouldn't that be a terrible inbalance for the earth?? Also, wouldn't the animal population continue to expand and overun areas? It isn't like they have birth control, lol... Would there be enough resources for everyone to eat from the earth?
I don't eat that much meat, and when I tried the vegetarian thing, I felt very weak since I cannot eat spicy foods or beans because of my sensitive stomach. So, I believe that eating meat is a human thing for consuming protein and amino acids....

 

[kds1980]

I really enjoyed this post, but to agrue about the veggie vs. meat... if all humans were vegetarians, and animals were not killed for their meat, wouldn't that be a terrible inbalance for the earth?? Also, wouldn't the animal population continue to expand and overun areas? It isn't like they have birth control, lol... Would there be enough resources for everyone to eat from the earth?
I don't eat that much meat, and when I tried the vegetarian thing, I felt very weak since I cannot eat spicy foods or beans because of my sensitive stomach. So, I believe that eating meat is a human thing for consuming protein and amino acids....

Actually this is not very good argument for eating meat.Majority of animals
that are specially bred for meat are artificially bred so once the consumption stop breeding and raising animals for meat will also stop

But yes if human consume milk or use animals for other purpose like ploughing then killing useless animals is must because these animals would overrun area's

 

[harsimiritkaur]

Hinduism allows eating meat. If you search for Aghori on Youtube, you will see they are sanyasis at the riverside living humble lives and eating anything coming their way, including floating dead carcasses in the river.

Vegetarianism is healthier, but if so called Amritdhari Sikhs are making vegeterianism an issue to be a Sikh, then they are putting themselves higher than Guru Nanak who teaches in Raag Malaar on pages 1289 and 1290 how the sanyasees criticize people for eating meat and that should not be an issue to hurt people or to disuade people away from Sikhism.

Guru Gobind Singh never prohibited eating meat, and if you think he did, then he would be claiming to be higher than Guru Nanak.

People should be more concerned with stealing kirtan time and akhand paath duties from the poor ones. If a raagi is given time then he should not go overtime like a thug.

In the Fremont Gurdwara I used to do kirtan and paath recitation, but the other freedy raagis and paathis lied about me saying I never take a bath, and they make up excuses so that the committee punishes me for no reason, forbidden me from doing this sewa, even when sangat requests to book me. Not all raagis and greedy, just the bad ones that are poojarees. Many of them sleep on their paath duties and eat meat anyway. I have seen them.

 

[spnadmin]

harisimratkaur ji

This is a bit off topic. But it is not the first time a forum member has reported that when someone doing seva does not agree with the ruling "elite" clique of the sangat, that person is accused of not taking a bath. Then the seva is taken away. This is remarkable. You may be the 5th or 6th person reporting this. It is wicked to do this to people. The motivation is very plain, and these people have no problems stooping so low. I am sorry this happened to you.

 

[kds1980]

Hinduism allows eating meat. If you search for Aghori on Youtube, you will see they are sanyasis at the riverside living humble lives and eating anything coming their way, including floating dead carcasses in the river.

Harsimrat ji

Let me correct you vaishnav Hinduism don't allow Eating meat.You can hear pravachans of any of their sadhu's and all of them are hard core vegetarians.Aghori sadhu 's are different
they live their secret lives in cramtoriams.One cannot take them as barometer what hinduism allows and what hinduism not O/W we also have to believe that hinduism allow consumption of human fleash as they also eat meat from dead bodies.

 

[Randip Singh]

Harsimrat ji

Let me correct you vaishnav Hinduism don't allow Eating meat.You can hear pravachans of any of their sadhu's and all of them are hard core vegetarians.Aghori sadhu 's are different
they live their secret lives in cramtoriams.One cannot take them as barometer what hinduism allows and what hinduism not O/W we also have to believe that hinduism allow consumption of human fleash as they also eat meat from dead bodies.

Correct.

The major paths of Hinduism are Vaisnavism (Vegetarian and the majority), Shivitism (some veg some non veg and next biggest), Shaktism (non-veg and smallest sect).

Fascinating, that you are talking about this today. I was having a discussion today and he informs me, that vegetarianism (lacto-veg) was used as a form of control by Brahmisns over the nasses. Apparently so the argument goes, being vege makes you less aggresive and therefore more prone to suggestions and controls.

Anyone else heard this?