Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Randip Singh]

sat sri akal

thanks for the wonderful article randip singh ji

Thanks for your kind words.

 

[learner]

Thanks

Very informative.

 

[hchohan]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguu Ji Ki Fateh

I read your article with great interest yesterday and I thought about posting a reply. It has served to firm up my belief even further.
Just for background - My family and I are all vegetarian and would never consider anything different. We are a simple Sikh family and do not follow any kind of Sikh or other movement or sect as you may call it.
I hope you don’t mind, but I humbly submit my personal comments concerning your article.

Fools who wrangle over flesh.
I am a fool for writing these comments, just as you are a fool for writing the original article. For I will not change your outlook on the issue just as though you will never change mine.
Just as your eyewitness accounts show there has been a division of veg and non-veg in the sangat for centuries and it shows no sign of changing.

Mistranslation and Misrepresentation of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Which side of the sangat is doing this - can you or I, quoted scholars or giani's from either side of this issue claim you have complete understanding of the Guru, of Bani or of Waheguru..? Your analysis belongs to you and those who made it. However, if I were for a moment to take your analysis as correct then even then I see no justification for being non-veg just as you see no justification to be veg.

Spiritual Merit of Vegetarianism.
I do not believe there is much spiritual merit in being vegetarian - this is where I agree with many of the examples you have given. Vegetarianism alone is not a path to God. It is ones actions, love and devotion etc that brings one into union.
For example: By my writing this response, to your writing your article and propagating our viewpoints to the community we have both forever committed something to the accounts of our life actions.

Meat
For me meat is meat no matter how you obtain it, slaughter it, kill it, cook it, prepare it etc. For me there is a clear distinction between what is a living creature of the Lord's infinite creation and what the Lord created as vegetation. If there are areas of any doubt in between for me it is best to avoid than partake.
I know you have tried to tackle this subject in your essay and your interpretations - but for me none would convince me that I am not doing what is right.

So why not meat for me and many like me…?
I believe that you cannot have Righteousness (Dharm) without first having compassion (Daya). To kill, directly or indirectly any living creature merely for food would mean that I have lacked Daya. Killing is occasionally a necessary act, but I cannot condone it merely in order to eat. I would rather starve for the Datar will provide all I need.
I also believe in following the example our Guru's have shown us. They did not eat meat so I will not eat it.
How can one type of meat be permissible and another not? Surely the answer to that is within the essence of Sikhism.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguu Ji Ki Fateh

I read your article with great interest yesterday and I thought about posting a reply. It has served to firm up my belief even further.
Just for background - My family and I are all vegetarian and would never consider anything different. We are a simple Sikh family and do not follow any kind of Sikh or other movement or sect as you may call it.
I hope you don’t mind, but I humbly submit my personal comments concerning your article.

Fools who wrangle over flesh.
I am a fool for writing these comments, just as you are a fool for writing the original article. For I will not change your outlook on the issue just as though you will never change mine.
Just as your eyewitness accounts show there has been a division of veg and non-veg in the sangat for centuries and it shows no sign of changing.

Mistranslation and Misrepresentation of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Which side of the sangat is doing this - can you or I, quoted scholars or giani's from either side of this issue claim you have complete understanding of the Guru, of Bani or of Waheguru..? Your analysis belongs to you and those who made it. However, if I were for a moment to take your analysis as correct then even then I see no justification for being non-veg just as you see no justification to be veg.

Spiritual Merit of Vegetarianism.
I do not believe there is much spiritual merit in being vegetarian - this is where I agree with many of the examples you have given. Vegetarianism alone is not a path to God. It is ones actions, love and devotion etc that brings one into union.
For example: By my writing this response, to your writing your article and propagating our viewpoints to the community we have both forever committed something to the accounts of our life actions.

Meat
For me meat is meat no matter how you obtain it, slaughter it, kill it, cook it, prepare it etc. For me there is a clear distinction between what is a living creature of the Lord's infinite creation and what the Lord created as vegetation. If there are areas of any doubt in between for me it is best to avoid than partake.
I know you have tried to tackle this subject in your essay and your interpretations - but for me none would convince me that I am not doing what is right.

So why not meat for me and many like me…?
I believe that you cannot have Righteousness (Dharm) without first having compassion (Daya). To kill, directly or indirectly any living creature merely for food would mean that I have lacked Daya. Killing is occasionally a necessary act, but I cannot condone it merely in order to eat. I would rather starve for the Datar will provide all I need.
I also believe in following the example our Guru's have shown us. They did not eat meat so I will not eat it.
How can one type of meat be permissible and another not? Surely the answer to that is within the essence of Sikhism.

Chohan Sahib,

yuor are great.

Das is realy an earthworm eating mud.We/I/me create Duja Bhav.We are no one to show compassion to anyone.If we think like that then our ego will increase manifold.Dharam or righthiousness is son of not our Daya or compassion or compassion of Akal unto us.Ie Faith or rightousness is gift to us by Akal.

We are not doer.If we be doer then to get retrun of that we may have to be reborn.Read Sukhmani Sahib.one who say I do again goes back to womb vagina(Garbh Jon)(to be reborn).

no one kills any one nor any one bring anyone to life.Akal gives life and Akal takes it back by which ever for Akal wants.In the form of Butcher Akal only kills another form of Akal ie goat.All is God.Same Akal as farmer kills plant another form of Akal.No other exists but Akal.Duja means any one second or other than Akal.Tujh bin Duja Nahi koi Tu Katar Kare So Hoyee.

 

[kds1980]

Mistranslation and Misrepresentation of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Which side of the sangat is doing this - can you or I, quoted scholars or giani's from either side of this issue claim you have complete understanding of the Guru, of Bani or of Waheguru..? Your analysis belongs to you and those who made it. However, if I were for a moment to take your analysis as correct then even then I see no justification for being non-veg just as you see no justification to be veg.

this article does not say that that all sikhs should eat meat.the main aim
of this is to counter extreme vegetarian propaganda that vegetarianism
is part of sikhism and those people who eat meat are not sikhs.this article gives information that on the issue of diet gurbani is silent.eat what is good for your health

Meat
For me meat is meat no matter how you obtain it, slaughter it, kill it, cook it, prepare it etc. For me there is a clear distinction between what is a living creature of the Lord's infinite creation and what the Lord created as vegetation

god has not created fertile land all over the world.there are coastal areas,icy regions,deserts.so please tell me what should people living there eat.a poor fisherman who earn his livelyhood by fishing is papi because he is killing animals,while a farmer who sprays pesticides on crops and kill millions of harmful as well as harmless insects is a good person.sorry to say but this type of theory needs a break.

 

[Randip Singh]

So why not meat for me and many like me…?
I believe that you cannot have Righteousness (Dharm) without first having compassion (Daya). To kill, directly or indirectly any living creature merely for food would mean that I have lacked Daya. Killing is occasionally a necessary act, but I cannot condone it merely in order to eat. I would rather starve for the Datar will provide all I need.
I also believe in following the example our Guru's have shown us. They did not eat meat so I will not eat it.
How can one type of meat be permissible and another not? Surely the answer to that is within the essence of Sikhism.

Interesting comments I I whole heartedly understand them..........and the key to what you have said is "So why not meat for me and many like me…?" .............this is the point of the essay..........it is a personal choice.

It is not true the Guru's did or did not eat meat.....there are many different accounts.

With regards to "I believe that you cannot have Righteousness (Dharm) without first having compassion (Daya). To kill, directly or indirectly any living creature merely for food would mean that I have lacked Daya. Killing is occasionally a necessary act, but I cannot condone it merely in order to eat. I would rather starve for the Datar will provide all I need.".

Guruji tells us that there is as much life in a plant, rock or an animal................only human life is higher..............so surely killing a plant and eating its flesh is as sinful as eating animals? Read below:

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT - ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.
On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Reading this Shabad one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states: ​

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.
har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.
jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.
mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.
lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

 

[hchohan]

Gurfateh


Chohan Sahib,

yuor are great.

Das is realy an earthworm eating mud.We/I/me create Duja Bhav.We are no one to show compassion to anyone.If we think like that then our ego will increase manifold.Dharam or righthiousness is son of not our Daya or compassion or compassion of Akal unto us.Ie Faith or rightousness is gift to us by Akal.

We are not doer.If we be doer then to get retrun of that we may have to be reborn.Read Sukhmani Sahib.one who say I do again goes back to womb vagina(Garbh Jon)(to be reborn).

no one kills any one nor any one bring anyone to life.Akal gives life and Akal takes it back by which ever for Akal wants.In the form of Butcher Akal only kills another form of Akal ie goat.All is God.Same Akal as farmer kills plant another form of Akal.No other exists but Akal.Duja means any one second or other than Akal.Tujh bin Duja Nahi koi Tu Katar Kare So Hoyee.

hello
I'm sorry but I am not 100% sure what you are trying to say. I think you are trying to say that a the person has not part in the decision to kill an animal and it is completly the will of Akal.

If I have understood you correctly - then my reply to that would be if a person has no control over his actions then what would be the point of anything..?

if I have mis-understood then please restate.

 

[hchohan]

this article does not say that that all sikhs should eat meat.the main aim
of this is to counter extreme vegetarian propaganda that vegetarianism
is part of sikhism and those people who eat meat are not sikhs.this article gives information that on the issue of diet gurbani is silent.eat what is good for your health




god has not created fertile land all over the world.there are coastal areas,icy regions,deserts.so please tell me what should people living there eat.a poor fisherman who earn his livelyhood by fishing is papi because he is killing animals,while a farmer who sprays pesticides on crops and kill millions of harmful as well as harmless insects is a good person.sorry to say but this type of theory needs a break.

what people choose to believe is or is not part of Sikhi is up to them. If what you are saying is true and Gurbani is silent on the issue then I can equally say where in Bani does it say go eat an animal.

I do not claim to understand God - or why he created such reasons on earth, however what I am saying is that if I were to live in such a region and have the same limited understanding of Sikhi as I do now, I would ask Datar to help me around that problem by whatever is his will.

Nor do I aim to condemn those that earn a living by killing God's creatures. I did however state earlier that killing is sometimes necessary/unavoidable - but I would not do it in order to eat.

 

[kds1980]

what people choose to believe is or is not part of Sikhi is up to them. If what you are saying is true and Gurbani is silent on the issue then I can equally say where in Bani does it say go eat an animal.

agreed gurbani does not say go and kill animals.but please tell me where it says go and drink milk,eat paranthas,ice creams,halwa ,milk shake etc
but we not only eat them but also distribuite them in langar.then why this ho halla on the meat issue.

 

[hchohan]

Randip Ji - I am replying to your post (but not using the quote option as is would be too big)

I do not (nor should anyone) claim to understand the order of things as that is for Akal alone.

I do not disagree with your point that joon includes in many things (animal & vegetable)
As a vegetarian I must eat vegetation in order to survive.
However I choose not to kill (even indirectly) any of Akals' creatures that my own senses are telling me that they too have senses.
i.e. although a plant may "feel" the blade that cuts it down Akal has made it in such a way that any person (not matter what faith) cannot understand, acknowledge or comprehend that suffering.
I can however see that an animal can certainly feel, see and sense the result of the blade.
Therefore to knowingly and willingly cause suffering like that - I would lack Daya.
Therefore as I can knowingly survive without causing willful suffering to Akal's creatures - I choose to be vegetarian. To me, for Sikhi to have Dharam it must first have Daya.

 

[ISDhillon]

When a new system of belief comes into the world we are always bogged down in reacting to contraversies because previous systems of belief took a position on such topics, when our religion did not take a position noone talked about it for years so it became a taboo, when it became a taboo busy-bodies who have too much time on their hands decided to debate about it, the answer is simple if it goes against your conscience then dont do it perhaps youre level of enlightenment surpasses that of others but dont infringe youre enlightened stae onto others cos they will never understand till they reach your level. This can be said of all schisms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Randip Singh]

When a new system of belief comes into the world we are always bogged down in reacting to contraversies because previous systems of belief took a position on such topics, when our religion did not take a position noone talked about it for years so it became a taboo, when it became a taboo busy-bodies who have too much time on their hands decided to debate about it, the answer is simple if it goes against your conscience then dont do it perhaps youre level of enlightenment surpasses that of others but dont infringe youre enlightened stae onto others cos they will never understand till they reach your level. This can be said of all schisms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As always....a great reply from you!!

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip Ji - I am replying to your post (but not using the quote option as is would be too big)

I do not (nor should anyone) claim to understand the order of things as that is for Akal alone.

I do not disagree with your point that joon includes in many things (animal & vegetable)
As a vegetarian I must eat vegetation in order to survive.
However I choose not to kill (even indirectly) any of Akals' creatures that my own senses are telling me that they too have senses.
i.e. although a plant may "feel" the blade that cuts it down Akal has made it in such a way that any person (not matter what faith) cannot understand, acknowledge or comprehend that suffering.
I can however see that an animal can certainly feel, see and sense the result of the blade.
Therefore to knowingly and willingly cause suffering like that - I would lack Daya.
Therefore as I can knowingly survive without causing willful suffering to Akal's creatures - I choose to be vegetarian. To me, for Sikhi to have Dharam it must first have Daya.

Hi Chohan Ji....I understand your point on Daya.....and you are describing life and pain as our crude senses percieve them..........but look how Guruji see's life and pain even in a plant (in this case sugar cane):

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

I am convinced our Guru's were so attuned with the Universe and beyond that they saw life at a molecular level and beyond. We know nothing of the true nature of pain.

Us crude human...see a cry and a bleat of a goat and we think that is pain.........we don't see that same plant cry and bleat so we assume we don't take a life.................my view is Guruji corrected us on this. Our sense's are crude because we are Munmukh....only true Gurmukh's have true perception....and in Bani we get a glimpse of this "true perception".

The Guru's saw good in their fellow man...whether vegetarian or meat eater.......and I think that is what Sikhism does.

 

[hchohan]

I see your point also – and no I cannot claim to understand the ways of Akal.
However – I still cannot reconcile killing with my belief that Sikhi is a progressive, logical, forward thinking way of the future for mankind.

I do not claim to know much about history, what the situation was in the past or how things came to be the way they are. However, I believe the whole human race is progressing and becoming more aware of the concepts of animal cruelty (Daya) the benefits of vegetenarianism and even newer ideas like the benefits of organic farming etc.

Let me try and explain my view in another way:

If an apple ripens and falls from the tree – where was the life, in the apple or the tree? Does the life in the tree remain..? Will a new apple emerge..?
When the wheat dries up and “dies” it is ready for harvest. Is there life in that wheat..?
When I mow my lawn to keep it tidy – does the blade of grass not grow tall again..?
I cannot comprehend God’s wonderful creation. As mankind is not as enlightened as our Guru Ji’s we cannot posses the wisdom to comprehend such things (do you..?).

However, do we still ignore the suffering that God has enabled us to perceive right in front of us..? Do he give us these senses for no reason..?
If I was to eat merely the liver of a cow – will the cow recover..?
If I eat the leg of a sheep – does the leg grow back?
If I bury the heart of a pig in the ground and water that ground – will a new pig appear..?
I think not – because I would be extinguishing the Jot of that creature completely and deliberately. What right do I have to do that for no reason other than to eat..?

Guru Ji made Amrit on Akal’s command. Mata Ji added sweetness to that Amrit so that the Khalsa would keep sweetness, love, caring and compassion (Daya) in our hearts. All of which are undeniably among the qualities of our True Lord.
How is the killing God’s creatures the way of the Khalsa and not an insult to the Amrit..? Without having that Daya when you kill do you become Dharmi by doing so..? By drawing blood so needlessly (as God has created the right food for us in vegetation) how is the Khalsa benefiting mankind – or is he merely satisfying his own thirst for blood..?

 

[hchohan]

Sorry – I missed out some more of my thoughts.

Many say that eating Halal meat is a cardinal sin. All identify it as meat that has been “sacrificed” in a slow way with the name of God said over it.

In saying this you have no difficulty in identifying that meat as the meat of an animal.
To identify what is killed in a slow way or what is killed in a fast way would imply that you know what time is and how to deal less suffering. Time and suffering are things that only Akal knows – you are a fool if you think you know it.
When a Khalsa readies a meal he should offer that food for blessing to God (Bhog) or remember Waheguru or recite a prayer over it before eating.

So I ask you – what is difference between that and Halal?
To me either one is a cardinal sin against the Amrit.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

good article Randip Singh ji

i am a vegetarian by choice... exactly as you mentioned..by conscience.. not by religion..

i strongly believe that using SGGS to justify out materialistic behaviour is wrong.. SGGS ji is a spiritual guide..and so should it be treated in referencing.

God bless and peace

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

hello
I'm sorry but I am not 100% sure what you are trying to say. I think you are trying to say that a the person has not part in the decision to kill an animal and it is completly the will of Akal.

If I have understood you correctly - then my reply to that would be if a person has no control over his actions then what would be the point of anything..?

if I have mis-understood then please restate.

Yes Dear Sir,


thats what is state of salvation while being alive.Vedanta stops with knowledge of the same but Gurmat is a step ahead as it tells about realising such state then just knowing about it.

Say in you and in das and in internet and in systems of both.All is Akal all else is false but Akal.So what das writes and what is transfered and what yourself read and precive is Maya or Mammon,when we see that all deeds do not actualy happen but tend to happen appreantly as actualy Akal is true.

When it is said that true is your universe,that means that due to Akal will it is true and Akal is one with that.

If we realise that by deeds we do nothing and all deeds are by Akal,we are one with Akal.such devote is one with Akal.Acts of that devotee are acts of Akal.

Ang 962

ਮਃ ੫ ॥
मः ५ ॥
mehlaa 5.
Fifth Mehl:

ਅਨਦ ਸੂਖ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ਨਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਇ ॥
अनद सूख बिस्राम नित हरि का कीरतनु गाइ ॥
anad sookh bisraam nit har kaa keertan gaa-ay.
Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, bliss, peace and rest are obtained.

ਅਵਰ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਛਾਡਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਧਰਸਿ ਨਾਇ ॥੨॥
अवर सिआणप छाडि देहि नानक उधरसि नाइ ॥२॥
avar si-aanap chhaad deh naanak uDhras naa-ay. ||2||
Forsake other clever tricks, O Nanak; only through the Name will you be saved. ||2||

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
pa-orhee.
Pauree:

ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਘਿਣਾਵਣੇ ॥
ना तू आवहि वसि बहुतु घिणावणे ॥
naa too aavahi vas bahut ghinaavanay.
No one can bring You under control, by despising the world.

ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੜਾਵਣੇ ॥
ना तू आवहि वसि बेद पड़ावणे ॥
naa too aavahi vas bayd parhaavanay.
No one can bring You under control, by studying the Vedas.

ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਈਐ ॥
ना तू आवहि वसि तीरथि नाईऐ ॥
naa too aavahi vas tirath naa-ee-ai.
No one can bring You under control, by bathing at the holy places.

ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਧਾਈਐ ॥
ना तू आवहि वसि धरती धाईऐ ॥
naa too aavahi vas Dhartee Dhaa-ee-ai.
No one can bring You under control, by wandering all over the world.

ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਕਿਤੈ ਸਿਆਣਪੈ ॥
ना तू आवहि वसि कितै सिआणपै ॥
naa too aavahi vas kitai si-aanpai.
No one can bring You under control, by any clever tricks.

ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੇ ॥
ना तू आवहि वसि बहुता दानु दे ॥
naa too aavahi vas bahutaa daan day.
No one can bring You under control, by giving huge donations to charities.

ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਵਸਿ ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰਾ ॥
सभु को तेरै वसि अगम अगोचरा ॥
sabh ko tayrai vas agam agocharaa.
Everyone is under Your power, O inaccessible, unfathomable Lord.

ਤੂ ਭਗਤਾ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਤਾਣੁ ਤੇਰਾ ॥੧੦॥
तू भगता कै वसि भगता ताणु तेरा ॥१०॥
too bhagtaa kai vas bhagtaa taan tayraa. ||10||
You are under the control of Your devotees; You are the strength of Your devotees. ||10||


being Veggi,being Amritdhari,being with 5Ks,with Christain baptism,with circmucenstion,with Holy Thread(Janueu) no one can impress Akal with worldly symbol.Only chosen one by Akal surreneder self ego to Akal by mercy of the same.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<Sorry – I missed out some more of my thoughts.

Many say that eating Halal meat is a cardinal sin. All identify it as meat that has been “sacrificed” in a slow way with the name of God said over it.

In saying this you have no difficulty in identifying that meat as the meat of an animal.
To identify what is killed in a slow way or what is killed in a fast way would imply that you know what time is and how to deal less suffering. Time and suffering are things that only Akal knows – you are a fool if you think you know it.
When a Khalsa readies a meal he should offer that food for blessing to God (Bhog) or remember Waheguru or recite a prayer over it before eating.

So I ask you – what is difference between that and Halal?
To me either one is a cardinal sin against the Amrit. >>

good point Chohan ji

not eating halal is a ritual which has crept in....

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Das anyway repeats that if any one has to talk about Daya or compassion of self work being done by self then best way is Jainism or Budhism.Doing by self is Dwait or Duja bhav.

One thing about Jon.What is jon?

Jon is meant by Yoni or Vagina.so veggies can jump and say that plants may not be jon as thier is vagina in plant.

Well das would like to tell them they do not know what they eat.Plants also carry out sexual reproduction.Vegitrarian or asexual reproduction is been done by man and is more un natural.

Natrual in plants we have male part and female part(within same plant0 or can be two plants(Say Papya or Papitah).When due to air or insect of bird pollanisation occur then only germination perhaps take place and seed is formed.Some time as we mate two goats called Naya Karana,in the same way we can rub two male and female flowers togather for mating.

Nature itself is a miracle and our eating plant and meat both are miralce.

In Halal,we have blood beheld as something with life and flesh not with life(as per old Testment) so blood has to be drained out.But in gurmat Akal is same in Blood as in life so no Duja Bhav or differnatiation based upon faith are allowed.

why kill checken is behind this logic.

 

[hchohan]

Dear Vijaydeep

Ego and Self is in everyone. However it is our self restraint and self choice that lead us to action or inaction. (one reaps what one sows)
e.g. who decides if you will do naam simran at amrit vela this morning..?

Whatever the Datar gives me I accept willingly as His Will.

Being Veggie or being Khalsa is not a symbol as you put it. It is a that way of life. One cannot achieve salvation just by being veggie (I believe the Guru said this) and one who is non-veg is not automatically condemned. Without Naam we are nothing. However, being Khalsa means being veggie – so it is part of that way of life.

You go into the technicalities of Halal sacrifice and its absurdity. Any form of unnecessary killing or eating what is produced and at the same time taking Gods name is therefore an absurdity. If Halal is animal flesh banned to Sikhs then a Sikh by his nature and by his actions automatically bans themselves from any kind of flesh.

p.s. what is the discussion of reproduction about..? That is a scientific fact of nature that I am not going to dispute. What has that got to do with daya..?