Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Randip Singh]

Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji clearly said it's wrong

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji said it's foolish to argue about it

Where which Shabad? Post the shabad that says this in it's entirety?

 

[PunjabiEspada]

you can agree with me that Bhagat Kabeer Ji was a vegetarian and held vegetarian beliefs right?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Bhagat Kabir Ji's Bani is written in the Islamic Context...he talks about Zor, Hallal, Sacrifice, etc which are ALL Abrahamic/Islamic religious traditions and beleifs. GURMATT has no such concepts except "SELF SACRIFICE as GREATEST SACRIFICE..aapa vaarna/shaheedee/Je tau prem khelan ka chao..sir dhar gali meri ao concept. IF you want to PLEASE ME..Give ME YOUR OWN HEAD...NOT a goat or lamb or chicken and its in this concept that the Infamous Talwara Book Tau KION MURGEE MAREH is a hot bed of creating confusion and misconcstruing bani of kabir ji to twist his concept around. ( Also please note that the Abrahmic God had demanded a Human Sacrifice of one of his prophets..a SON of the prophet..the prophet did bring along his son..BUT also took along a Lamb just in case God relented...( Because he certainly DIDNT want to sacrifice his SON much less HIMSELF even for His GOD )..and viola..GOD did agree to have the poor LAMB instead of the SON. Compare this to how GURU GOBIND SINGH JI SACRIFICED WILLINGLY his two sons in battlefield right before his eyes..and his family elsewhere..."God" in this case didnt appear and decline the sacrifices !! ) SO SIKHS need not go around asking..WHY KILL THE CHICKEN..because WE DONT DO THAT...of KILLING. we kill for OUR OWN FOOD.

GURU NANAK JI chose these Banis by various Bhagats to "COMPARE and provide us with different viewpoints"....and these are SACRED to us..BUT the BOTTOM LINE is the BANI that is written by GURU NANAK JI HIMSELF. You will NOT FAIL TO NOTICE..that GURU NANAK JI not only travelled the world, HE went to each and every Famous RELIGIOUS PLACE, teeraths, headquarters of islam.hinduism.yogis/siddhs etc etc..and He also has TACKLED EACH and EVERY "Beleif" of these and WRITTEB Bani on these. This is becaseu GURU NANAK JI came to deliver a BRAND NEW GYAAN..a PATH well away from the beaten paaths, the threadbare philosophies ..shastras, vedas, mahabhartas,Raam of Ramayanas, Cows and holy dung.. kalyugs and aquarious..teerath baths, fasts, pilgrimages, etc etc etc..traditions etc etc...GURU NANAK JI DEMOLISHED EACH and EVERY such beleifs and tradition. ON the HINDU side GURU NANAK ji wrote all the bani himself..on the Abrahamic side He chose banis of adherents that came from such backgrounds such as Bhagat Kabir ji to ILLUSTRATE and SHOW GURMATT..

This is NOT to say that those Bhagat Banis are any less sacred to us..since they were chosen by Guru nanak ji and are in the SGGS we hold them equally sacred...so theres no argument there...but the facts of "Background" cannot be denied...and thats called CONTEXT. GURU NANAK JI is solid 100& GURMATT as He is the FOUNTAIN HEAD of GURMATT which the following NINE NANAKS EXPOUNDED in FULL. GURU NANAK JI gave His FINAL JUDGEMENT.."Maas maas kar moorakh jhaggrrey"..and NONE of the NINE NANAKS even wrote a single SHABAD mentioning "diet" after that verdict. Case CLOSED.

 

[PunjabiEspada]

Bhagat Kabir Ji's Bani is written in the Islamic Context...he talks about Zor, Hallal, Sacrifice, etc which are ALL Abrahamic/Islamic religious traditions and beleifs. GURMATT has no such concepts except "SELF SACRIFICE as GREATEST SACRIFICE..aapa vaarna/shaheedee/Je tau prem khelan ka chao..sir dhar gali meri ao concept. IF you want to PLEASE ME..Give ME YOUR OWN HEAD...NOT a goat or lamb or chicken and its in this concept that the Infamous Talwara Book Tau KION MURGEE MAREH is a hot bed of creating confusion and misconcstruing bani of kabir ji to twist his concept around. ( Also please note that the Abrahmic God had demanded a Human Sacrifice of one of his prophets..a SON of the prophet..the prophet did bring along his son..BUT also took along a Lamb just in case God relented...( Because he certainly DIDNT want to sacrifice his SON much less HIMSELF even for His GOD )..and viola..GOD did agree to have the poor LAMB instead of the SON. Compare this to how GURU GOBIND SINGH JI SACRIFICED WILLINGLY his two sons in battlefield right before his eyes..and his family elsewhere..."God" in this case didnt appear and decline the sacrifices !! ) SO SIKHS need not go around asking..WHY KILL THE CHICKEN..because WE DONT DO THAT...of KILLING. we kill for OUR OWN FOOD.

GURU NANAK JI chose these Banis by various Bhagats to "COMPARE and provide us with different viewpoints"....and these are SACRED to us..BUT the BOTTOM LINE is the BANI that is written by GURU NANAK JI HIMSELF. You will NOT FAIL TO NOTICE..that GURU NANAK JI not only travelled the world, HE went to each and every Famous RELIGIOUS PLACE, teeraths, headquarters of islam.hinduism.yogis/siddhs etc etc..and He also has TACKLED EACH and EVERY "Beleif" of these and WRITTEB Bani on these. This is becaseu GURU NANAK JI came to deliver a BRAND NEW GYAAN..a PATH well away from the beaten paaths, the threadbare philosophies ..shastras, vedas, mahabhartas,Raam of Ramayanas, Cows and holy dung.. kalyugs and aquarious..teerath baths, fasts, pilgrimages, etc etc etc..traditions etc etc...GURU NANAK JI DEMOLISHED EACH and EVERY such beleifs and tradition. ON the HINDU side GURU NANAK ji wrote all the bani himself..on the Abrahamic side He chose banis of adherents that came from such backgrounds such as Bhagat Kabir ji to ILLUSTRATE and SHOW GURMATT..

This is NOT to say that those Bhagat Banis are any less sacred to us..since they were chosen by Guru nanak ji and are in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji we hold them equally sacred...so theres no argument there...but the facts of "Background" cannot be denied...and thats called CONTEXT. GURU NANAK JI is solid 100& GURMATT as He is the FOUNTAIN HEAD of GURMATT which the following NINE NANAKS EXPOUNDED in FULL. GURU NANAK JI gave His FINAL JUDGEMENT.."Maas maas kar moorakh jhaggrrey"..and NONE of the NINE NANAKS even wrote a single SHABAD mentioning "diet" after that verdict. Case CLOSED.

Once again, he said it is foolish to argue about it

Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji commands us and we follow

Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji contains the order that eating meat is wrong

That much should be more than enough

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

NO JIOS..SGGS does NO such command. Please post the relevant shabd in context and supporting shabads form Guru nanak ji sahib.

2. There is NO SUCH ORDER. Please post the relevant shabad in context and supporting shbad from GURU Nanak Ji.

3. NONE of the 5 SIKH GURUS even touched the subject of Meat/Diet as necessary for spiritual purposes. PLEASE post a shabd if you have come across and by which Mahalla.

 

[BhagatSingh]

GURU NANAK JI chose these Banis by various Bhagats to "COMPARE and provide us with different viewpoints"

Sounds sketchy. I have found the bani of Bhagats, Bards and Gurus to be quite consistent. Their views align. Guru Arjan Dev ji collected and presented similar views in SGGS.

Do you have any examples of where we see misalignment? (contrast, contradiction, differing views, etc)

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Bhagat kabir Ji writes about Zor, Hallal, Sacrifice which makes meat Hallal..etc..all "concepts" which have absolutely NO Locus standi in Gurmatt. They are ISLAMIC CONCEPTS. Sheikh farid ji too mentions Namaaz, five prayers etc etc which are again islamic concepts. Sheikh farid ji says a Head that doesnt bow in namaaz should be CUT OFF...again this is NOT a Gurmatt concept...No GURU ever advocated cutting any head that doesnt bow to the Guru or to Akal Purakh.
The SIKH GURUS wrote about these "concepts" and gave their own interpretation...thus we have Guru nanak ji explaining what the namaaz, what the musallah, what the five prayers etc etc "mean" in Gurmatt..Mussalmaan MOM dil Hoveh...an example that a Muslim shoudl be having a heart made of wax..full of dya and compassion.
The Gurus never did Namaaz, never fasted, never did the five prayers, never kept the rozeh..BUT they chose the Banis that speak about all these and give their own interpretations..thats what i mean by "comparing..taking concepts and giving our very own meaning.
Thus a Sikh would NEVER claim the Chicken hes killing to cook is a "sacrifice" to God..its simply food...BUT a Muslim on the other hand would NEVER eat a chicken NOT "sacrificed..made Hallal". Kabir Ji questions the reasoning/logic behind this concept..hence TAU KION MURGEE MAREH ?? is a question put to a Muslim and NOT a SIKH. SGGS doesnt CONDONE any such "sacrifice"...as a GURMATT PRINCIPLE....so this question is invalid in the Gurmatt context even though it appears in SGGS.

 

[Randip Singh]

Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji contains the order that eating meat is wrong

That much should be more than enough

Where? You have not presented one iota of proof? Where does Guru Grath Sahib say this?

 

[Randip Singh]

you can agree with me that Bhagat Kabeer Ji was a vegetarian and held vegetarian beliefs right?

Kabir Ji also said a woman was a Black Cobra not to be trusted. Do you agree with that?

“a black cobra’, the pit of hell and the refuse of the world. woman ruins everything when she comes near a man; Devotion, salvation and divine knowledge no longer enter his soul.”

We are not Kabir Panthi's but Sikh's of Nanak!!

 

[Randip Singh]

Sounds sketchy. I have found the bani of Bhagats, Bards and Gurus to be quite consistent. Their views align. Guru Arjan Dev ji collected and presented similar views in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Do you have any examples of where we see misalignment? (contrast, contradiction, differing views, etc)

Sheik Farid was a devout Muslim, and contributed to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Should we follow his path?

Kabir ji says the following about women:


http://singhsabha.com/bhagat_kabir.htm

Kabir does not think well of women. there is almost a tirade against them in the hymns of Kabir. Woman is characterised as "a black cobra', the pit of hell and the refuse of the world." She is considered to be a hurdle in the path of the spiritual progress of man. He spoke, "woman ruins everything when she comes near a man; devotion, salvation and divine knowledge no longer enter his soul." His views, about woman are also evident from all his vehement attacks against maya. Almost everywhere he links maya to a woman who is out to entice and entrap man, and destroy his spiritual life. Such views about woman from a married person are, indeed, quite uncommon. The cosmological views of Kabir give a clear clue to his worldview. He finds Niranjana to be the creator of the world; maya or woman. And this woman stands between man and God. She is there to entice him away from Him.


Nanak in contrast says:

From woman, man is born;
within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.
Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.
When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.
So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.
From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

— <cite>Guru Nanak, Raag Aasaa Mehal 1, Page 473</cite>​

 

[BhagatSingh]

Gyani ji,
The shabad here is s quite clear, Kabir ji says the use of force is tyranny but you (Mullah) have called it permissible. How will your accounts go with Dharam Raj if you do this? Eat Kichree with salt instead. Then he says
ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਲਈ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਮਾਸ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਣ ਦੀ ਨਿਯਤ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਪਰ (ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦਾ ਹੋਕਾ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਨੂੰ) ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਫਿਰਾਂ ॥੧੮੮॥
According to Kabir ji's saloks, it is tyranny to kill animals to have meat with your bread.

I am not too worried about Sheikh Faird ji, he has a very strong way of talking.

Back to Kabir ji, here again he asks why you (Mullah) are killing a chicken?
(ਭਲਾ, ਹੇ ਮੁੱਲਾਂ!) ਜੇ ਤੂੰ ਇਹ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਕਿ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ (ਉਸ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਅੱਗੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਲਈ) ਮੁਰਗ਼ੀ ਕਿਉਂ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ? (ਕੀ ਉਸ ਮੁਰਗ਼ੀ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਆਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ? ਮੁਰਗ਼ੀ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੀ ਅੰਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਹੀ ਭੇਟਾ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੀਹ ਭਾਵ ਹੈ? ॥੧॥
Here is not prohibiting the eating of meat but pointing out the hypocrisy of killing animals by those who believe that God is present in all life.

Kabir ji is against the killing of animals whether for food or for sacrifice.


Randip ji,
For a mod you are not staying on topic at all.
There is no contrast there. You have not understood what they are saying. We can discuss this on another thread. Remember to bring the actual saloks of Sant Kabir ji so we can study from the original source.

 

[Randip Singh]

Simply analyze this issue, read my post as well, and you can see Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji clearly commands for us not to eat meat

Which shabad says this? Please enlighten us? You have repeated this several times and yet not backed it up.

 

[Randip Singh]

Gyani ji,
The shabad here is s quite clear, Kabir ji says the use of force is tyranny but you (Mullah) have called it permissible. How will your accounts go with Dharam Raj if you do this? Eat Kichree with salt instead. Then he says
ਮੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਲਈ ਤਿਆਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਮਾਸ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਣ ਦੀ ਨਿਯਤ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਹੋਵੇ ਪਰ (ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦਾ ਹੋਕਾ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਨੂੰ) ਜ਼ਬਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਫਿਰਾਂ ॥੧੮੮॥
According to Kabir ji's saloks, it is tyranny to kill animals to have meat with your bread.

I am not too worried about Sheikh Faird ji, he has a very strong way of talking.

Back to Kabir ji, here again he asks why you (Mullah) are killing a chicken?
(ਭਲਾ, ਹੇ ਮੁੱਲਾਂ!) ਜੇ ਤੂੰ ਇਹ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਕਿ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ (ਉਸ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਅੱਗੇ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ਦੇਣ ਲਈ) ਮੁਰਗ਼ੀ ਕਿਉਂ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈਂ? (ਕੀ ਉਸ ਮੁਰਗ਼ੀ ਵਿਚ ਉਹ ਆਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ? ਮੁਰਗ਼ੀ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੀ ਅੰਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਹੀ ਭੇਟਾ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੀਹ ਭਾਵ ਹੈ? ॥੧॥
Here is not prohibiting the eating of meat but pointing out the hypocrisy of killing animals by those who believe that God is present in all life.

Kabir ji is against the killing of animals whether for food or for sacrifice.


Randip ji,
For a mod you are not staying on topic at all.
There is no contrast there. You have not understood what they are saying. We can discuss this on another thread. Remember to bring the actual saloks of Sant Kabir ji so we can study from the original source.

Point 1 - You raised the point about Bhaghat Bani. I clarified it. Nanak Sahib has only taken those shaloks from Bhaghats that fit in with hi schoool of thought so I am very much on topic thanks. No need to get personal. I have added a link above with refers to the study and the actual book:


http://singhsabha.com/bhagat_kabir.htm

Page 174 from this source:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qw7-kUkHA_0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=History+of+the+sikh+guru%27s+retold&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M1mmT5-0JePJ0QXU_aWoCg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=History%20of%20the%20sikh%20guru%27s%20retold&f=false


Point 2 - I disagree fundementally with your interpretation:

Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (Sri Guru Granth Sahib p1350)

Again, let us put this into context:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai.
mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.
tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. rahaa-o.
pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.
jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa.
ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.
ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa.
tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.
kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?
O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?
The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. Pause
You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.
The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed?
And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?
Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca?
You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.
Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


First point to note is that halaal and bismil, does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter. Put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate Gods asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul wont travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.

Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (Sri Guru Granth Sahib p1374)

Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.
kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.
divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served â€"
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written: ​

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You are doing exactly what the essay is about, pulling one liners from shabads and quoting them out of context. Now that is misrepresentation.japposatnamwaheguru:

 

[BhagatSingh]

Point 1 - You raised the point about Bhaghat Bani.

Oh right, sorry.

No I did not use that as an anti-meat quotation, I said Kabir ji is against the killing of animals, whether it is for meat or sacrifice. On page 1103 Kabir ji clarifies this for us.

ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
जीअ बधहु सु धरमु करि थापहु अधरमु कहहु कत भाई ॥
Jī▫a baḏẖahu so ḏẖaram kar thāpahu aḏẖram kahhu kaṯ bẖā▫ī.
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥
आपस कउ मुनिवर करि थापहु का कउ कहहु कसाई ॥२॥
Āpas ka▫o munivar kar thāpahu kā ka▫o kahhu kasā▫ī. ||2||
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||


EDIT: In the shabad mentioning Kichree. ਹੇਰਾ means meat obtained form a kill.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਮਾਸ ਵਾਲੀ, ਵੇਖਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜਦੋਂ ਬੂੰਦ ਸਾਗਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਮਿਲ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਉਸਦੀ ਭਿੰਨਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਖੀ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖਾਂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਸਾਧ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂੰਦ ਨਹੀ ਅਨ ਹੇਰਾ॥ {ਬਿਲਾ ੫, ੧੧੭, ੨:੨ (827)}। ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ॥ {ਸਲੋ ਕਬ, ੧੮੮:੨ (1374)}। ਮੇ

Hera roti = mas vali roti, roti with meat

Freed Kote Wala Teeka translates as following: ਕਿਉਂਕਿ (ਹੇਰਾ) ਸ਼ਿਕਾਰ ਮੈਂ ਜੀਵੋਂ ਕੋ ਮਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਮਾਸ ਕੇ ਸਾਥ ਰੋਟੀ...

Those shabads have been translated quite accurately. It's the author's lack of understanding of Gurmukhi that is the issue here.

EDIT2: Awesome I am the #1000 poster!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

IN Islam..the Sacrificial animal is TIED UP and Ritually Slaughtered in GOD'S NAME...thats why ONLY such an animal provides hallal meat. This is DHARAMIC ACTION as far as the Muslims are concerned. ( IN ALL the Graphic Videos put up here and elsewhere by variosu posters one can see how the Hallal/Kosher animals are RESTRAINED while being ALIVE and KICKING...THIS is strictly DHARMIC ACTION which CANNOT be interefered with an IOTA..something which the others argue till the cows come home BUT the Islamic/jewish religious authorities DONT MOVE an INCH...its DHARAM..exactly what Kabir ji QUESTIONING here. IF this action is DHARAM ?? religious ?? than whats NOT Dharmic ??

2. Second point..in Islam/Jewish religion there is NO OTHER WAY..except the hallal/kosher "dharmic" slaughter..so its FOOD+RELIGIOUS=HALAL/KOSHER. PERIOD. So its fruitless claiming..food..killing..dharmic blah blah blah because these differences/fine lines DONT EXIST...No Colours/shades.... JUST BLACK ONLY.

3. Becasue of no. 2 above..Kabir has absolutely NO alternative...except to defend the poor cow/goat/chicken which is being RELIGIOUSLY KILLED (food is incidental and merely so as to NOT WASTE the meat...because the PRIMARY OBJECTIVE IS RELIGIOUS SACRIFICE to which the cow/goat/chicken never gave permission/consent....and since EACH "Halal/Kosher" practitioner is a RELIGIOUS PERSON..Mullah/Rabbi/Kazi....there is NO "BUTCHER" ?? Hence kabir ji is SARCASTICALLY asking..Who is the BUTCHER ?? There is NONE...a question which has NO ANSWER really becasue its un-answerable !! Like asking what "COLOUR" besides BLACK..when its ALL BLACK ONLY. The KAZI/Rabbi is the SAGE..hes the "halal/kosher" provider..hes the one who ties up the animal and slits its throat..wheres the "BUTCHER" ?? Which Muslim/Jew would accept "meat" from a BUTCHER ?? Again same answer..NONE. There is NO BUTCHER to a Muslim/jew...they are all rabis/kazis, mullahs...dharmic slaughterers....ALL BLACK..not even a slightly "grey'" acceptable ( grey would be a Muslim who only knows the kalma/or knows how to play the Kalma TAPE RECORDER so the dying chickens cna hear the kalma and transform form ordinary meat into Halal meat....Now a days due to the SHEER huge numbers of slaughtered animals..Malaysia alone eats many MILLION chickens daily...what more the one Billion Muslims worldwide...so its mainly the "GREY" type....simply not enough BLACK INK to paint every "butcher" BLACK. ha ha !!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Context context CONTEXT...context and background...is everything...just as in property..its location..location and LOCATION.

1. Note how the Mulsim Bhagts all speak about Islamic practises...ONLY. halal, etc..
2. the Hidnu bahgats speak about Hindu concepts..reincarnation, joons, rebirths, pilgrimages, fasts etc..not a single Hidnu bahgat even wrote a single line about this Maas maas clamour...

3. GURU NANAK JI "accepts" BOTH and Gives us the DEFINITIVE GURMATT VIEWPOINT TO FOLLOW. That is the New Gyaan of Gurmatt.

4. Can anyone please provide GurBani of Mahlla 2, 3 4, 5 9...which orders us to eat khichhrrree..or daal..or carrots...ONLY and clearly say NO MEAT.period. As far as I know there is NONE. and this is simply because in Gurmatt this is a NON-ISSUE.

 

[Randip Singh]

Oh right, sorry.

No I did not use that as an anti-meat quotation, I said Kabir ji is against the killing of animals, whether it is for meat or sacrifice. On page 1103 Kabir ji clarifies this for us.

ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
जीअ बधहु सु धरमु करि थापहु अधरमु कहहु कत भाई ॥
Jī▫a baḏẖahu so ḏẖaram kar thāpahu aḏẖram kahhu kaṯ bẖā▫ī.
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥
आपस कउ मुनिवर करि थापहु का कउ कहहु कसाई ॥२॥
Āpas ka▫o munivar kar thāpahu kā ka▫o kahhu kasā▫ī. ||2||
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||


EDIT: In the shabad mentioning Kichree. ਹੇਰਾ means meat obtained form a kill.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਮਾਸ ਵਾਲੀ, ਵੇਖਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜਦੋਂ ਬੂੰਦ ਸਾਗਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਮਿਲ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਉਸਦੀ ਭਿੰਨਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਖੀ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖਾਂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਸਾਧ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂੰਦ ਨਹੀ ਅਨ ਹੇਰਾ॥ {ਬਿਲਾ ੫, ੧੧੭, ੨:੨ (827)}। ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ॥ {ਸਲੋ ਕਬ, ੧੮੮:੨ (1374)}। ਮੇ

Hera roti = mas vali roti, roti with meat

Freed Kote Wala Teeka translates as following: ਕਿਉਂਕਿ (ਹੇਰਾ) ਸ਼ਿਕਾਰ ਮੈਂ ਜੀਵੋਂ ਕੋ ਮਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਮਾਸ ਕੇ ਸਾਥ ਰੋਟੀ...

Those shabads have been translated quite accurately. It's the author's lack of understanding of Gurmukhi that is the issue here.

EDIT2: Awesome I am the #1000 poster!

You've done it again!

You pulled out one liners out of the shabad. I think the authors are 100% correct in their translations and the fact that when one liners are pulled out, this distorts shabads.

Kabir may have been a vegetarian, this does not mean Sheikh Farid was? Guru Nanak ate meat on his way to Kurukshetra? Sadana was a butcher who killed animals yet his shloks are in Bani? Surely Sadana should be condemened to hell? What about Ravi Das. he killed animals and also ate meat?

Like I said before, we are not Kabir Panthi's and focusing on one Bhaghat or a one liner distorts Bani.

Here is the entire shabad complete with translitration:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.
kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.
divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.
kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.
gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.
jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.
kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.
kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.
hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.
laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.
kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.
chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.
kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.
jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.
saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.
kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.
kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.
dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.
kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.
harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.
tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.
kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.
paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.
kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.
laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.
kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.
Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.
It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.
Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.
Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.
Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.
Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.
Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.
But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.
Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.
Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.
But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.
Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.
Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.
Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served â€"
those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.
Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.
I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.
Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.
As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.
Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

I really can't see how or why this shabad relates to meat?

 

[mandemeet]

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,
Eating meat or not eating it is one’s own choice; it is also our own choice to follow the spiritual path the Guru has introduced to us or to follow the world; however, kindly keep your support of Gurbani genuine and purely based on Gurbani. There is no author in Sri Guru Granth Sahib who doesn’t align with Guru Nanak’s views. I mean none; if Freed says “cut off that head that doesn’t bow to Akalpurakh”, no Guru gives comments on that sloka as they have done with many slokas of other authors; obviously its meaning is not beheading as it has been taken; verse is addressed to “self” and it is addressed to self conceit that doesn’t allow to bow before the Creator; Freed is the same person who asks us to be utterly humble and makes us aware that in all Allah exists (contrary to Islam theory). Gyani jio, please don’t think they, Baba Freed and other Bhagatas, represent any religion particularly in any way; none of them had faith in any established religion; the Gurus have also addressed the same issues what they have addressed; spiritually enlightened ones rise above such small closets. only we need is to understand the context they are talking about.
With regards
mandemeet

 

[mandemeet]

Randip Singh ji,
What is being quoted (including recent quotes by you), are slokas of Bhagat Kabir ji, they are not shabda; every sloka stands at its own; they are not linked always or depended on each other; they cover various issues.
I request you to post Bhagat Kabir’s bani in which he criticizes “woman” as black cobra because the article you referred, just says so without giving any reference of Sri Guru Granth Sahib; as you have referred Bhagat Kabir’s being anti woman, I am curious about this; I think it is misunderstanding about Bhagat Kabir, or out there Kabir panthies are doing such propaganda; in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, he doesn’t say such things and outside Sri Guru Granth Sahib , who knows what other people had done to his bani as Pirthya and other people did in the name of Guru Nanak. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib, all is said in context of lust not sex or gender. On 329 and 480 Sri Guru Granth Sahib, sarpani is used for Maya; I wonder where Bhagat Kabir calls a woman black cobra!
On 1379, Roti with butter is referred to luxurious viands by Baba Freed, it is not literally about roti and butter and see the context where it is said. I just feel we should not do injustice to Baba Freed or Bhagat Kabir if they say something about hypocrisy or exploitation done by some people in their times.
With Regards
mandemeet

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Mandemeet Jio,
I personally dont beleive that any of the authors of SGGS are not " as per GURMATT/SIKHS" ( by virtue of their BELIEFS). The "Hindu" bahgats condemn everything that is Hindu..the "Muslim" bhagats would be declared murtaad/Kafirs by the Muslim world because they clearly criticize the rituals of islam...so deep down each contributor of sggs is indeed Gurmatt oriented...and thats the reason why their banis are chosen by Guru Ji.
Secondly what i am mentioning is BACKGROUND...and Kabir Jis background and Namdev jis background can be clearly established - kabir ji mentions subjects which namdev doesnt - and this is due to their background. This is what all have to understand.
Thirdly i never fail to stress that no matter what a shabad begins to say..the BOTTOM LINE/RAHAO will always give the GURMATT perpesctive. For example in one shabad namdev Ji talks about a person who is too much into "mansions" will be reborn a bhoot..a man too much into welath will be reborn a snake etc etc..BUT the BOTTOM LINE at the END states the Gurmatt Viewpoint..and that is DONT BE WORRIED..NAAM will SAVE YOU.
Now..what i always notice is most sikhs simply leave the BOTTOM LINE out and begin to argue..OH..will i really become a snake in my next life ? oh will i be reborn a prostitute ? oh..will i be a bhoot ? And then begin to argue about whether Bhoots exist..( because namdev ji mentioned bhoots) or is SGGS is sexist because it mentions prostitute ?? Is it TRUE that all these prostitutes we see today were in their previous joon too much into sex/kaam ?? etc etc etc..ALL of which are NON-ISSUES...and the GOLDEN LINE is about GURMATT..and NAAM BEING THE SAVIOUR. The GURUS also SAY THIS...NAAM NAAM NAAM...and if we listen..then we have no fear of reincarnations, joons, rebirths, heavens, hells, whatever..BUT most IGNORE this all important vital teaching..and argue endlessly about whether there is reincarnation in sikhism..whether the gurus believed in joons or if there are really 84 lakh joons or less or more..etc etc etc.. and if we really "argue" and leave no time for Naam in our lives..then we will become the self fulfilling prophesy..and be reborn/rebirthed/etc etc..???? we could AVOID that..and GURU NANAK JI came to make sure we do...

I am a teacher by profession..and my job is to ensure my students "Pass" their exams and be empoyable/educated persons...I can "frighten" them by saying all sorts of things..IF you dont study and FAIL..you will end up being a scavenger..a garbage man..or a beggar...etc etc etc..all of which may be "true"...and IF my studnets take this to heart and daily begin to think..oh..i may be beggar only..or oh i may be unemployed..etc etc and thus NEGLECT to STUDY HARD..which is actually the BOTTOM LINE..my efforts are at making sure they all STUDY....not argue endlessly about becoming beggars etc leaving no time for studying...and then becoming a self fulfilling prophesy..

Thank you Ji.