Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Harry Haller]

The only thing they lack is intelligence like we have.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

speak for yourself, my dog is smarter than me

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Harry Ji you are absolutley RIGHT. My dogs can recognise my car from a mile away...even around corners...and not only my car but the cars of all others who love them but visit occasionally...The bird called Beejrrah builds an intricate nest which defies even Human Engineering Skills & principles and is built with just a beak and claws...and done without any teaching/demonstration lessons by anyone else...Humans spend decades in School..learning..and yet we claim to be more intelligent ?? Nature holds millions of such really fantastic builders, engineers, bees with their hives..bats with their radar...whales salmon turtles with their vast distance homing skills, migratory birds etc etc builders of dams exist among animals with only a snout and four paws...
The ONLY thing a HUMAN is which animals are NOT..is being SAKAT....and thats the ONE THING that Gurbani tells us leads to waywardness...and away from Him...NO animal is Sakat...only HUMANS.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/ca.../dogs-are-better-for-people-than-some-people/

 

[notanotherloginplease]

I think Guru has only one hukum, not two-four. The problem begins when we start making choices and mold guru's hukum accordingly.
That might feel right to our mind but it is NOT.

To eat meat, we have to kill animals(Intelligent animals as per above posts) and killing of any kind does not go along with merciful behavior of our gurus as we all know goats ,rabbits,cows, chickens are not harming us.

I have read some comments above which are totally absurd to me, testifying that Gurus eat meat, is utter nonsense. Has anybody seen gurus eating meat? I don't know on what research such testimonies are based on.

Rab e Rakha

 

[Harry Haller]

I think Guru has only one hukum, not two-four

What a strange statement, hukam is hukam.....

The problem begins when we start making choices and mold guru's hukum accordingly

.

but that is the nature of the beast, you will never stop people from doing that, all we can hope for is to be guided by the truth.

That might feel right to our mind but it is NOT.

I pity those that feel this way, in some respects, I find it hard to believe, everything I do that is wrong, that is outside of consonance, I am fully aware of, I have never kidded myself that things feel right and therefore are right, everything wrong, feels wrong, no matter how pleasurable or beneficial.

To eat meat, we have to kill animals(Intelligent animals as per above posts)

why just to eat meat? what about the animals that are killed for hides, fluids and all sorts of by products that have penetrated our lives. I find those that do not eat meat, but continue to use animal by products quite strange, I certainly do not take kindly to being lectured on my own habits by such people, if you feel that not eating meat, but still purchasing products that have animal content, makes you a better person, or even a better Sikh, good luck to you, just keep it to yourself!

and killing of any kind does not go along with merciful behavior of our gurus as we all know

as we all know...... well, no, I do not know, your saying that the Gurus never sanctioned killing of any kind? what a strange statement, given the wars that Sikhs fought over the years, what did the Gurus do then? Did they sanction mass praying meetings to repel our enemies? or churn out beads and ramalas? maybe they prayed to the pink hippo god to give us special flying powers so that no one was killed?

I have read some comments above which are totally absurd to me

I know how you feel!!

testifying that Gurus eat meat, is utter nonsense. Has anybody seen gurus eating meat?

Has anyone seen the Gurus not eat meat? Has anyone seen the Gurus eating a nice nut roast with butternut squash? We do however, have the SGGS, which does rather lean towards a non ritualistic and supersitious life, where its not what you eat, but how you behave, that is important, yeah, I know, strange concept.....

I don't know on what research such testimonies are based on.

unlike your testimonies, which are backed up with concrete research and fact!

In my view, we are not bleeding heart liberals, nor are we fatalistic prayer monkeys, and nor do we kid ourselves that not eating porky makes us better people, we are Sikhs, we live, we help, we assist, we use logic, discretion, tact, diplomacy, all wonderful skills in life, those are the facets we should be honing, learning, perfecting so that we are able to recognise truth and live by it.

Wasn't Hitler a vegetarian..............?

 

[kggr001]

Well with Humans having more intelligence then Animals I meant, we can do way more with our intelligence then any animal could. So yes in a way we are league's ahead with our intelligence then that of an animal. I don't see any animal doing algebra or building fusion reactor or curing any diseases. We're, undoubtedly, the most intelligent species on Earth. The tools that we invented are testimony of this.

In my view, we are not bleeding heart liberals, nor are we fatalistic prayer monkeys, and nor do we kid ourselves that not eating porky makes us better people, we are Sikhs, we live, we help, we assist, we use logic, discretion, tact, diplomacy, all wonderful skills in life, those are the facets we should be honing, learning, perfecting so that we are able to recognise truth and live by it.

What makes us better people is showing kindness to all things including animals. I don't believe that someone who is a murderer but is only kind to animals. is any beter then the one who kills animals but is kind to fellow humans.

 

[Harry Haller]

Well with Humans having more intelligence then Animals I meant, we can do way more with our intelligence then any animal could. So yes in a way we are league's ahead with our intelligence then that of an animal. I don't see any animal doing algebra or building fusion reactor or curing any diseases. We're, undoubtedly, the most intelligent species on Earth. The tools that we invented are testimony of this.



What makes us better people is showing kindness to all things including animals. We can't say that someone who is a murderer but is only kind to animals. is any beter then the one who kills animal but is kind to fellow humans.

I do not see why folks that do algebra, or build fusion reactors are any more 'intelligent' than other folks. I have met many 'intelligent' people in my life, and many lacked a complete grasp of common sense, in fact if anything, I think the more you lean towards genius, which is a pinnacle of intelligence, the more your common sense goes out of the window!

there seem to be a lot of really good soundbites in this thread, but this one is my favourite, a murderer who is kind to animals is no better than a carnivore who is kind to humans, BRILLIANT! so by this logic, I am on the same level as Hitler! Now if someone could explain to me where the logic, intelligence and far sighted thinking is in the above statement, I would be hugely grateful.

I do not believe Sikh life is measered by how big your turban is, whether your kara is enscribed or not, or made of stone age iron, whether you eat meat or not, worship the moon, light a few candles, avoid wearing red, its all in the mind, it is not a case of following rules, it is a case of developing a mature and thinking mind so that the answers to the above questions are obvious. There is a big picture out there, seems some can only see the small stuff, however, if I ever do see a Sikh, with an enormous turban, a huge iron kara, oversized kachera, munching a carrot, dressed all in black, (or white, or saffron), I will be sure to prostrate myself before a true master of Sikhism!

 

[kggr001]

I do not see why folks that do algebra, or build fusion reactors are any more 'intelligent' than other folks. I have met many 'intelligent' people in my life, and many lacked a complete grasp of common sense, in fact if anything, I think the more you lean towards genius, which is a pinnacle of intelligence, the more your common sense goes out of the window!

We were talking about animals, yes humans are way more intelligent then animals and thats cause we can do much more with the intelligent we've.
Thats what i'm trying to say. Not that someone who knows algebra or builds fusion reactors should be more intelligent then people who don't do that. I do agree that animals are in some parts doing beter then humans however it's still we who can do more with the intelligent we've.

there seem to be a lot of really good soundbites in this thread, but this one is my favourite, a murderer who is kind to animals is no better than a carnivore who is kind to humans, BRILLIANT! so by this logic, I am on the same level as Hitler! Now if someone could explain to me where the logic, intelligence and far sighted thinking is in the above statement, I would be hugely grateful.

Well an Animal wants to live if you kill it you robbed it from it's life.
If you murder someone that person also might've wanted to live and your robbed his life.
So in my eyes the exact same thing happened here.
Also the way we can think like this is what makes us humans different then animals.

 

[japjisahib04]

Gurbani furman, 'ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥ - other juene are for your survival and you are the ruler of this universe.

best regards

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I think Guru has only one hukum, not two-four. The problem begins when we start making choices and mold guru's hukum accordingly.
That might feel right to our mind but it is NOT.

To eat meat, we have to kill animals(Intelligent animals as per above posts) and killing of any kind does not go along with merciful behavior of our gurus as we all know goats ,rabbits,cows, chickens are not harming us.

I have read some comments above which are totally absurd to me, testifying that Gurus eat meat, is utter nonsense. Has anybody seen gurus eating meat? I don't know on what research such testimonies are based on.

Rab e Rakha

notanotherloginplease ji.

Guru Fateh.

Does your Guru tell you to cite Sakhis which are anti Gurmat as part of your Gurmat wisdom? I hope not.

For the reason I am still waiting for the whole Sakhi about Ram Rai and your understanding of the Shabad " Miti Musalmaan ki" penned by Guru Nanak a couple of centuries before this Sakhi supposed to have had occured.

Our Guru tells us to base our wisdom on Gurbani which is in SGGS, our only Guru, not on some baseless Sakhis.

Will wait for you to start a new thread for this. This is a reminder for all of us to learn from each other.

Tejwant Singh

 

[linzer]

Gurbani furman, 'ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥ - other juene are for your survival and you are the ruler of this universe.

best regards

japjisahib04 ji
could you post the ang # for this I've tried various searches and I can't find it.
thanks

 

[notanotherloginplease]

Apologies if I have cited an anti gurmatt sakhi according to you. But I dont find it anti gurmatt. It would be right to say that I have cited sakhi which has never proved to be happened in reality. In that case I apologize. But still it wont change the intention behind his sakhi, which I guess everybody can understand. Changing bani with your own 'matt' is forbidden or not considered right. I think thats what we can call anti gurmatt.


Please let me know if you are Ok with changing bani. I am not.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Apologies if I have cited an anti gurmatt sakhi according to you. But I dont find it anti gurmatt. It would be right to say that I have cited sakhi which has never proved to be happened in reality. In that case I apologize. But still it wont change the intention behind his sakhi, which I guess everybody can understand. Changing bani with your own 'matt' is forbidden or not considered right. I think thats what we can call anti gurmatt.


Please let me know if you are Ok with changing bani. I am not.

notanotherloginplease,

Guru Fateh.

Please read my first post to you regarding this and see if the Sakhi passes the Gurmat benchmark of the SGGS and this is the reason I asked you to express your view on the whole Shabad and also relate the Sakhi so we can interact if this Sakhi took place and of anyone changed anything according to the Sakhi.

Let me ask you a couple of questions which are related to the Sakhi and the Shabad.

1. What does Ghumar (Potter) mean in Hindu religion?
2. What does Ghumar mean in Islam and the two other Abrahamic religions?
3. Does it mean the same thing in the above 2?
4. Who is the Shabad addressed to by Guru Nanak, Hindus or to the Muslims?

Please start a different thread while responding the above.

Will wait for the details.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[notanotherloginplease]

What a strange statement, hukam is hukam.....

Hukam is hukam, true. But what I meant to say from my statement was that guru has only one hukam, not 2-4. This means either guru will either say its right or its wrong. There wont be 2-4 different versions of the hukam,

1 Hukam saying - its allowed to eat meat.
2nd Hukam saying its not allowed.
3rd hukam saying that Kutha is allowed
4th saying kutha is allowed, halal is not allowed etc etc.


.

but that is the nature of the beast, you will never stop people from doing that, all we can hope for is to be guided by the truth.

Nature is not an excuse for doing wrong things,

I assume we are not stopping people from doing anything, its themselves who have to think and stop themselves from doing that. We can only explain.

I pity those that feel this way, in some respects, I find it hard to believe, everything I do that is wrong, that is outside of consonance, I am fully aware of, I have never kidded myself that things feel right and therefore are right, everything wrong, feels wrong, no matter how pleasurable or beneficial.



why just to eat meat? what about the animals that are killed for hides, fluids and all sorts of by products that have penetrated our lives. I find those that do not eat meat, but continue to use animal by products quite strange, I certainly do not take kindly to being lectured on my own habits by such people, if you feel that not eating meat, but still purchasing products that have animal content, makes you a better person, or even a better Sikh, good luck to you, just keep it to yourself!

Answer of above in bold : because we are discussing just MEAT here.

Those products which are obtained by killing animals should never be obtained.It is just another form of eating meat. I feel ashamed of people who do this and call themselves vegetarians. They are in illusion.

It always reminds me of something funny, when a colleague of mine said that she is vegetarian too, and she only eats boneless chicken. lol

I agree with you that people who cannot abstain from meat or meat products have right to say anything about it. No body is lecturing you specifically, if you don't want to read anyone's viewpoint then you should avoid coming to forums like this. no offence.



as we all know...... well, no, I do not know, your saying that the Gurus never sanctioned killing of any kind? what a strange statement, given the wars that Sikhs fought over the years, what did the Gurus do then? Did they sanction mass praying meetings to repel our enemies? or churn out beads and ramalas? maybe they prayed to the pink hippo god to give us special flying powers so that no one was killed?


Its so funny. I dont understand how could you write such a statement. Oh I know, because you like arguing.

Well here goes the explanation:
Gurus sanctioned no innocent's killing. The wars sikhs fought were result of atrocities, not for enjoyment purposes or as a leisure activity. I dont see cows coming to your house and taking your kids and wives away forcibly. or rabbits chickens coming to gurudwara and started killing people reading gurbani with their beaks.

I know how you feel!!



Has anyone seen the Gurus not eat meat? Has anyone seen the Gurus eating a nice nut roast with butternut squash? We do however, have the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which does rather lean towards a non ritualistic and supersitious life, where its not what you eat, but how you behave, that is important, yeah, I know, strange concept.....

again arguments..when talking about behaviour:
please turthfully tell me who is displaying better behaviour.
1. A person catching a scared goat from her legs and forcibly cutting her throat untill she die of pain and crying and then drain her blood out, and make small pieces of her skin infront of other scared animals and then roastin it and eating it.
or
2. a person going to garden and grabbing some veges , washing them and then cutting them and eating.

unlike your testimonies, which are backed up with concrete research and fact!

In my view, we are not bleeding heart liberals, nor are we fatalistic prayer monkeys, and nor do we kid ourselves that not eating porky makes us better people, we are Sikhs, we live, we help, we assist, we use logic, discretion, tact, diplomacy, all wonderful skills in life, those are the facets we should be honing, learning, perfecting so that we are able to recognise truth and live by it.

we are sikhs lol..and you are a hindu and person sitting next to you is a muslim and the other one on right side is a christian..
sorry brother , i dont see the humility here. Isnt it also a trait of Sikhs???

Wasn't Hitler a vegetarian..............?

..

 

[Harry Haller]

Hukam is hukam, true. But what I meant to say from my statement was that guru has only one hukam, not 2-4. This means either guru will either say its right or its wrong. There wont be 2-4 different versions of the hukam,

1 Hukam saying - its allowed to eat meat.
2nd Hukam saying its not allowed.
3rd hukam saying that Kutha is allowed
4th saying kutha is allowed, halal is not allowed etc etc.

you seem to be confusing Hukam with some sort of rule system, my understanding is that a good example of hukam would be gravity, it is absolute, on earth anyway, you cannot argue with gravity..hukam to me is an absolute truth, it is not fate, it is not 'what is written', it is an order of the absolute truth. The concept of hukam is too important to be wasted on what you eat anyway....

Nature is not an excuse for doing wrong things,

I absolutely disagree, nature is nature, and what happens in nature is subject to the laws of Creation, in some respects you are right, because the very essence of nature means there is no wrong.Maybe next time you see a Lion eating its young, you may wish to educate the Lion as to how wrong it is?

I assume we are not stopping people from doing anything, its themselves who have to think and stop themselves from doing that. We can only explain.

I am sorry but who are you to explain anything to anyone, I am not interetested in you stopping me from doing anything, nor am I interested in your explanations. By the same token I have no interest in stopping others do anything, I have enough to deal with in my own life without taking responsibility for anothers.

Answer of above in bold : because we are discussing just MEAT here.

Those products which are obtained by killing animals should never be obtained.It is just another form of eating meat. I feel ashamed of people who do this and call themselves vegetarians. They are in illusion.

It always reminds me of something funny, when a colleague of mine said that she is vegetarian too, and she only eats boneless chicken. lol

I agree with you that people who cannot abstain from meat or meat products have right to say anything about it. No body is lecturing you specifically, if you don't want to read anyone's viewpoint then you should avoid coming to forums like this. no offence.

I love reading others viewpoints, I love interacting, and I love debate, I also love this forum and those on it.

Its so funny. I dont understand how could you write such a statement. Oh I know, because you like arguing.

Well here goes the explanation:
Gurus sanctioned no innocent's killing. The wars sikhs fought were result of atrocities, not for enjoyment purposes or as a leisure activity. I dont see cows coming to your house and taking your kids and wives away forcibly. or rabbits chickens coming to gurudwara and started killing people reading gurbani with their beaks.

Actually I do not love arguing, I am known for my reluctance to argue, your statement that the Gurus sanctioned no killing, now changed to the Gurus sanctioned no innocent killing, seemed a false statement, I am merely, using humour, showing how false it was. The point I am making is that when people, animals, need to be killed, they get killed. Now you see, no cows have come to my house, and I have not yet seen a rabbit coming to gurudwara (altough I did once see someone that looked a bit like a rabbit, does that count?), but they taste delicious, and they have by products that are really useful.

Actually, thinking about it, I am a Sikh, you are a Sikh, and the Gurus stand as the pinnacle of how to be a Sikh, uhmm, I am sorry to burst your bubble, but the Gurus were known to have hunted. Do you think this is a lie? It is certainly possible that they did not hunt, and instead sat all the animals down and invited them to have langar, you know what Sakhis are like!! I would appreciate your comments on this.

we are sikhs lol..and you are a hindu and person sitting next to you is a muslim and the other one on right side is a christian..
sorry brother , i dont see the humility here. Isnt it also a trait of Sikhs???

humility to me is recognising that I am only a small tiny cog, but I am still a cog.

 

[notanotherloginplease]

Well.. whatever we discuss here, is not going to take us anywhere. Do whatever you feel right. Ultimately,its not between you and me. Its between you and lord.

 

[ravneet_sb]

Sat Sri Akaal,

Waheguru Ji Da Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Di Fateh

 

[N30S1NGH]

The way I look at this whole meat debate, its mindset from both sides of argument try to box Sikhi into black and white rules. Whilst, there may be notable affects of eating enrich foods/tamogun-meat related foods on affecting the mind at intial stages in meditation, but is is relative from one case to another it should be left at that, it affects one then its understandable one becomes veggie.

Above should not be taken overall position of Sikhism rather than relative choice of individual.

This whole eating meat or not eating meat falls in one of gunas of this relative reality which is in itself is part of bigger illusory fragmented reality.

According to my understanding, gurbani has very balanced neutral stance in regards to eating meat, it neither condemns eating meat in totality nor supports it in its totality. It condemns our confined/dogmatic notions behind both positions. Gurbani is of turiya-4th dimension, it ultimately talks about absolute reality which is above from simple black and white rules- allowing of eating meat or not eating meat. Positions in gurbani which supports or condemns eating meat is part of relative reality which is further fragmented into different gunas of divine -(sato-pure - life/compassion-attribute of divine, tamo-death- destruction attribute of divine deathless) both and all three gunas are just as valid as they are all pointing towards chauda pad(4th high dimension reality/absolute reality)- turiya which is gurbani ultimate position on relative realities which is absolute neutral stance eating meat or not eating as not eating meat-compassion/giving life to creation is aspect of divine, or eating meat- destructive force of divine is also aspect of divine /both positions or both aspects (life/death) are of Ultimate reality/truth which underpins both of dualities and is beyond them- turiya- ~ Ik Oankar ~

~ Ik Oankar ~ One universal Eternal Absolute unchanged Awareness Being-Light-Knowledge- God- all in one, one in all- embodiment of stillness awareness, expressing itself in its movement - creating, preserving and changing/destructing spontaneously effortlessly.

 

[N30S1NGH]

Personally speaking, I am veggie, cannot say i am staunch veggie as whenever unconditioned truth operates can't say which position it will express itself as, off course there are times truth would operate and without any second thought driven by deep intuition i would eat by product of egg then my own staunch veggie conditioning lol kicks in feel guilty about it. I guess the point i m trying to make it.

Both eating meat or not eating without any conditioning of mind are equal expression of truth/divine.

The way i understood or felt at times- Our-turiya natural state is neither full time veggie nor full time non veggie, its unconfined unconditioned flowing expression of non dual truth between and beyond both

 

[ravneet_sb]

Sat Sri Akaal,

Atoms have electron, proton, and neutron.

Protons can not stay together without neutrons in the nuclei, and mass with orbiting electrons can not form,
Neither Positive nor negative can bind together.

Neutral minds are required to bind in form.

This is "TRUE" nature

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh