Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Sherdil]

I think the whole point of this shabadh was to show that people do not understand what meat and flesh is. They make a distinction between plants and animals, without realizing they are both living things. Who are we to say that we don't cause plants suffering when we pluck them and cut them down. That's why Guru Nanak talks about the sugar cane being cut and ground up, in this very shabadh.

 

[Canada]

Im sorry, but the environmental debate is just silly.... I was trying not to respond as Ive expressed my views earlier but it just seems ludicrous

How much of our deforestation is happening secondary to ariguluture? The crops that sell are planted in favour of those that would most likely aid in the species diversity of any give region.... the coffee industry for example has led to vast deforestation and and top soil loss in much of south america. In addtion, the major crops we eat in the industrilized world are from GMO's (which Im not against either per say).... How about all the chemicals and pesticides that get sent into ground water, and what about the poor insects we kill on top of it? Let alone transportation methods...

I see a rash double standard here, you talk about environmental impact or lack of empathy for animals but our agriculture industry isn't innocent either...


Honestly, do what feels best for you in your body....

You're not against GMO food but you're worried about the chemicals?
You do realize they're one and the same, right? lol

 

[Canada]

I think the whole point of this shabadh was to show that people do not understand what meat and flesh is. They make a distinction between plants and animals, without realizing they are both living things. Who are we to say that we don't cause plants suffering when we pluck them and cut them down. That's why Guru Nanak talks about the sugar cane being cut and ground up, in this very shabadh.

Guru Nanak said this hundreds of years ago.
We now know that pain comes from the nervous system, and plants don't have a nervous system, but animals do.
Are we not allowed to consider new knowledge in our deliberations?

 

[Ishna]

Actually there is some evidence to suggest that plants do have some sort of electrical signal that is sent from an injured branch down to the roots. I'll find the documentary for you later on today.

 

[Ishna]

As promised...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGLABm7jJ-Y

 

[Canada]

Actually there is some evidence to suggest that plants do have some sort of electrical signal that is sent from an injured branch down to the roots. I'll find the documentary for you later on today.

As promised...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGLABm7jJ-Y

Ok, so a plant receives an electrical signal when injured. Does it do this for self-preservation? Does it "feel" it? This implies that plants have consciousness.

I hardly see how this justifies eating meat or these issues I've posted about here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/38652-told-dad-meat-not-forbidden-he-14.html#post198042

So basically you're saying because there are electrical signals in plants, that they may or may not interpret as pain - since they don't have nerve cells, a brain, and may or may not have a mind/consciousness.
But that makes it OK to kill an animal who clearly does have a brain, mind and consciousness.. that will scream in pain and look you in the eye? Give me a break.

A dead animal's body will jolt around if you shock it with electricity. Does it feel the pain then? Really, I'm not very shocked by these experiments; clearly every living thing has an electromagnetic field and uses pulses to communicate among its parts and cells.. this does not imply the capacity to feel pain, suffering, emotions, or anything at all.

Part of my last point on the subject in the thread I've linked above is the use of GMO plants and pesticides/insecticides and fungicides. We are genetically modifying the plant, spraying it with chemicals and poisoning ourselves in the process. Does the plant feel pain from all that? Does it cry out and ask us to stop? Well, perhaps it does; by giving us cancer? Who knows?

The point is; if I were in front of a cow, pig, or cat for that matter! (what's the difference really? right? you can't put a cat above the others if plants can't even be safe to eat).. and I had to kill it, or eat a plant... well, the animals would beg me to stop hurting them, they would weep and attack me back. There would then be blood everywhere and it would reek of death. If I eat the plant, nothing happens; at most, some interruption in an electromagnetic field. So, about the equivalent of getting a text message on a cell phone. Does your phone feel pain? How about the dead animals and plants that are in the oil, that go into the plastic to make your phone? Do they feel pain too? These questions are all so inane and pointless; as Guru Nanak Ji has said.

Nature has provided us with these plants for a reason - we need to eat. Animals are not here to be abused and enslaved. There are people who do this who do not even eat the animals, it's not a question of diet; it's ethical. Ever been to a zoo? Do the animals look happy? Can they feel emotion? Obviously. Do plants in a conservation area look sad?

Sigh.

 

[Sashahere]

Again, in my opinion, Sikhism does not turn us all into new age meditating veggies obsessed with mother earth and preserving the balance of life, Sikhism is about living in consonance with our surroundings, it is about eating animals, but showing some respect, it is about wearing leather, but also being grateful to the animal, a contribution to the world can take place in many ways, some contributions are in my view, merely lip service, some contributions are not, this is not a competition to see who contributes more, however, as is clearly written in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the book that we hold dear, only fools wrangle over flesh, so every moment wasted debating this, is a moment that we could be contributing, to that end, the argument is moot.

However, as an animal lover, I would consider the veg way but purely on personal grounds, not because of a religion, or a way of life, but even then, it would be my own decision, and I would not dream of foisting it onto anyone else.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/india/42275-sikh-enviornment-day-celebrations-ecosikh-sees.html

 

[Ishna]

Canada/Sashahere

Sharing information for your benefit, Ji. There is much we still don't know about our world.

 

[Canada]

Canada/Sashahere

Sharing information for your benefit, Ji. There is much we still don't know about our world.

Ignorance is not a justification for mass-murder, poisoning the land and water, and in the process, poisoning ourselves.

That and I have realized, by reading blog posts, that most of the people we are talking to are 'giving up' on Sikhi and feel they've gained nothing from it anyway... so why am I wasting my time??

Here's a nice picture I've had on my computer for a while that summarizes how I feel about the "information" you've given us;

I think I've got BINGO by now!

 

[Ishna]

You sure are making a lot of rude assumptions for someone who doesn't even know me.

Try calming down a bit. You catch more flies with honey.

 

[Canada]

You sure are making a lot of rude assumptions for someone who doesn't even know me.

Try calming down a bit. You catch more flies with honey.

I said "most", doesn't mean you.

But.

"Sikhi: Gone."
Posted Yesterday.

I don't take kindly to people who try to justify murder by asking if plants feel sad. Even if they do, there's no reason to be murdering beings that are obviously sentient; can cry, yell, have children and raise them, and look you right in the eye. I'm sorry you can't see how that could upset someone, I'm sorry you're so desensitized to murder that when confronted with the reality of it, you resort to ridiculous arguments.

Like I said in my last comment.. I'm wasting my time, and this is the first time I've bothered to try to talk about being vegetarian on the internet because I know this happens.
So, I'm done talking about it.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

 

[Ishna]

Thank you for reading my blog. You still don't know anything about me though (i.e. vegetarian 7 years and counting).

I understand you're passionate about vegetarianism, as are many people, which is why this thread has had over 100,000 views by itself.

However, kindly stop with the attitude towards me and other posters, please. You can debate issues without resorting to personal judgements. And the meat issue is a big issue in Sikhi and you're going to come across it A LOT (so get used to it).

Gurfateh

 

[Canada]

Thank you for reading my blog. You still don't know anything about me though (i.e. vegetarian 7 years and counting).

I understand you're passionate about vegetarianism, as are many people, which is why this thread has had over 100,000 views by itself.

However, kindly stop with the attitude towards me and other posters, please. You can debate issues without resorting to personal judgements. And the meat issue is a big issue in Sikhi and you're going to come across it A LOT (so get used to it).

Gurfateh

A vegetarian who insists on helping carnivores justify their murder?
Please. I do come across it all the time, it's true. But I just don't bother associating with anyone who decides to knowingly murder innocent lives and, in the process, destroy the environment. Thankfully, I am surrounded by vegans/vegetarians and environmentally minded people.
I assure you I won't be doing it anymore, because I won't be posting here at all. I never meet any Sikhs in real life who are like this - and I'm not just talking about the meat issue.
I'm quite disappointed to be honest. We can dance around the issue as long as we like; but the fire is getting bigger. Fortunately, in real life, I am doing something to help.. but the internet is where ideas come to die. So, I implore you to keep dancing; it is surely much like Shiva's dance in the flames.

 

[arshi]

Canada ji

Waheguru ji ka.Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Please don't give up posting. Wand shakna, sharing the rewards of our toil, including knowledge, is one of the cornerstones of Sikhi. I know you are aware of this. I, personally have felt frustrated sometimes and often drawn comments which irritated me. Sikhi teaches us to be tolerant and humble.... I keep reminding myself and this keeps me going.

Ishna ji comes across to me as a very sincere person and as an avid learner constantly asks questions. She's only trying to help.

I found your posts extremely interesting and informative .... Please Kindly DO continue.

Humbly.

Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'

 

[Canada]

Canada ji

Waheguru ji ka.Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Please don't give up posting. Wand shakna, sharing the rewards of our toil, including knowledge, is one of the cornerstones of Sikhi. I know you are aware of this. I, personally have felt frustrated sometimes and often drawn comments which irritated me. Sikhi teaches us to be tolerant and humble.... I keep reminding myself and this keeps me going.

Ishna ji comes across to me as a very sincere person and as an avid learner constantly asks questions. She's only trying to help.

I found your posts extremely interesting and informative .... Please Kindly DO continue.

Humbly.

Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'

Rajinder Singh Ji,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Thank you for your support and kind words, but I will be refraining from posting; at least on this topic. I have a lot of work to do elsewhere and this is just becoming a distraction, and quite honestly an unnecessary stress.
I assure you that I will continue to share my knowledge to the best of my ability (in fact, that's what the aforementioned "work" is about), but I have no need to preach or continue try to reason with those who have already made up their minds long ago and have armed themselves to the teeth to protect their views.

Since I have again posted in this thread, I should remain on topic, so.. a quote! Since I don't want to say anything more :happysingh:

"Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds theirs. We live by the death of others, we are burial places! I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men" - Leonardo da Vinci

 

[arshi]

Dear Canada ji

Waheguru ji ka.Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Please accept my apologies for a belated response

You wrote:

I have a lot of work to do elsewhere and this is just becoming a distraction, and quite honestly an unnecessary stress.

I can understand where you are coming from. It is hard to balance things and it all depends on your other engagements, activities, interests and social obligations (not to forget one’s spouse ha..ha). Forums can become an all consuming activity often dragging us away from other equally, if not more important, commitments.

My post on the 23rd June is the first on this thread. Although, I abstain from meat, I have not engaged in the debate on this forum. This is one area which, IMHO, will never be resolved - at least not in my lifetime (what is left of it – I am in my early seventies). I do not say this in any ‘holier than though attitude as I did indulge many years ago.

I assure you that I will continue to share my knowledge to the best of my ability (in fact, that's what the aforementioned "work" is about)

I am really pleased to hear that as I am convinced you have a lot to offer. I, too, have cut down, drastically, on my lecturing activity and hope to devote more time to music, my first love, which has manifested in kirtan performances and hopefully, health permitting, recordings whenever I get the opportunity. Reading, researching and translating Gurbani is my passion. Walking the Sikhi path as per Guru’s message is my constant prayer and aspiration.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Arshi ji writes:

My post on the 23rd June is the first on this thread. Although, I abstain from meat, I have not engaged in the debate on this forum. This is one area which, IMHO, will never be resolved - at least not in my lifetime (what is left of it – I am in my early seventies). I do not say this in any ‘holier than though attitude as I did indulge many years ago.

Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

There is nothing to resolve in this. We, as humans have to consume life in order to survive. There is no other way and no ifs or buts about it either. Gurbani is the proof in this very subject.

Having said that, it is up to the individual what kind of life he/she consumes.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[arshi]

Tejwant ji, I was referring to the debate in general on foums and otherwise and not on a personal basis - I am quite at peace with individuals making their own choices.

R.S. 'Arshi'

 

[Randip Singh]

Oh I do so love this article and watching people throw mooli's and drum sticks at each other without even taking time out to understand the underlying message.


The article is not about justifying meat eating. It is not about justifying vegetarianism. It is primarily about distortion of Granth Sahib ji to suit a particular agenda. It just so happens, at THIS moment in time , the Vaishnav orientated Sikh's seem to be doing this more so. Tomorrow it maybe the Shakta orientated Sikhs.

Either way distortion of the Granth into an a la carte menu is NOT the Sikh way.

Ok let us analyse diets and say the Granth Sahib forbids diets. The Guru's were primarily scholars, philosophers and scientists. They understood nature.

Which diet is permissible?

1) Lacto Vege? - But hey hold on, the Vegan tells us that cow milk or any milk from an animal is cruel. In fact anyone who understands the process by which milk is made knows it is primarily liquefied flesh. Fat cells. Then there is the Eco-Damage methane from cows does for the dairy industry?


2) Vegan? - No milk, just plants and pulses. Now people argue this is not a natural diet. We are primarily hunter gatherers and this diet destroys our environment. Some scientific studies argue this is also unhealthy.


3) Ovo-Vege - Eggs are part of a chickens ovulation cycle. It's a waste product. It cannot become a living being. Waste Flesh. Lacto-Vege's argue it is still flesh? but hold on, I thought your argument was that you didn't eat flesh because of cruelty? It pains the chicken to lay eggs? Err well the chicken is going to lay eggs whether you like it or not?


4) Meat - It's cruel vege's argue. Killing animals etc. Meat eaters say, well it's part of the cycle of life. Others argue it depletes the environment.

etc etc etc...and so the Fools continue to wrangle over flesh....
Our Guru says, eat what your conscious tells you too. We do not judge people based on diets.



Also what are these spurious arguments over pain? Pain is part of “Hukam”. If you accept Hukam, you accept pain. End of argument.

When I agreed to edit this article for my two friends (who remain nameless) they said to me, I would get grief for being the editor. I said I don't care, so long as their anonymity was preserved (especially my vegetarian friend) , because I knew she would get the most grief. People really need to look at themselves and ask, why am I so concerned with what someone else eats. Let em carry on. Stop the stupidity. Jhatka eaters, Fish Eaters, Lacto Vege eaters, Ovo/lacto eaters , Vegans etc unite as one. Unite as Sikhs!!!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Thats the part that hurts the most.."UNITE AS SIKHS".....Vested interests like the derawadees, taksaals, badal and dals, nihungs, namdharees, nirankarees,Radhas and Soamis, beas and sirsas..etc etc etc..ALL have Vested interests in DISUNITY....UNITY means DEATH for their interests...thats why we will continue to be FOOLS and continue to wrangle and be disunited...Until and unless..we WAKE UP....and smell the coffee...Oh oh..wait..many Derawadees taksalis have this thingy about Coffee..tea drinking as well....a sort of Backup ..Plan B..just in case Sikhs UNITE on the Meat thingy....then on to Plan B..divide them on Tea and Coffee..and Milo..Horlicks..etc etc etc...:kaurkhalsaflagblue::kaurkhalsaflagred::swordfights:lol