Free Will?

[Lee]

Hi Lee

Great post! I am curious. Pardon my ignorance but I was looking at what I presume is your picture and I did not see a turban, yet I see you say you are Sikh , I thought it was a requirement to wear the turban, am I wrong?

Blessings
Curious

Hey Curious,

Yes sir you are correct, I hardly don the turban, I do when I go to Gurdwara but not all of the time.

It is a rather sticky one for me personaly, Kesh is the thing, Guru ji clearly tells his Khalsa that kesh must be kept. Turban I'm thinking of as an Indian/Punjabi cultural thing and as yet I have found nowhere that Guru ji tells us non Khalsa Sikhs to wear one.

It is more likely a cultural decisition for me as although I do wear it when I go to Gurdwara, it makes me feel quite uncomfatable to do so, not physicaly you understand, but culturaly. According to my own culture it is a mark of respect for God to take off anything covereing the head when entering a house of God.

 

[curious seeker]

Hey Curious,

Yes sir you are correct, I hardly don the turban, I do when I go to Gurdwara but not all of the time.

It is a rather sticky one for me personaly, Kesh is the thing, Guru ji clearly tells his Khalsa that kesh must be kept. Turban I'm thinking of as an Indian/Punjabi cultural thing and as yet I have found nowhere that Guru ji tells us non Khalsa Sikhs to wear one.

It is more likely a cultural decisition for me as although I do wear it when I go to Gurdwara, it makes me feel quite uncomfatable to do so, not physicaly you understand, but culturaly. According to my own culture it is a mark of respect for God to take off anything covereing the head when entering a house of God.

Hi Lee

Please forgive my ignorance but kesh is the doctrine of not cutting the hair, right? I cannot opine on whether or not to done the turban for religious reasons. I definiotely think, that in the West it may hamper conversion. However if ots a matter of faithf, its a matter of faith. Perhaps some one will give some arghuments for wearing the Turban? I mean bioth from scrtipture and from tradition.

Blessings
Curious

 

[Caspian]

Nah the point is to keep your hair not to wear the turban (you can wear a turban without hair if you wanted to lol). The turban is culturally specific as Lee said, its as good as a head-scarf, chuni, baseball cap, etc.

Lol out of curiousite. Lee have you ever tried going into a gurwara with a baseball cap? I think it would work wouldnt it? Theres nothing technically wrong with a baseball cap.

 

[spnadmin]

Hi Lee

Please forgive my ignorance but kesh is the doctrine of not cutting the hair, right? I cannot opine on whether or not to done the turban for religious reasons. I definiotely think, that in the West it may hamper conversion. However if ots a matter of faithf, its a matter of faith. Perhaps some one will give some arghuments for wearing the Turban? I mean bioth from scrtipture and from tradition.

Blessings
Curious

curious seeker ji

I honestly wonder if dastar does/will hamper conversion in the West. Converts to Sikhism in the US represent a small but steady and growing stream of new faces. And dastar is pretty common among them. Honestly someone in dastar stands out -- so of course someone in dastar will be noticed. And someone who does not wear a turban is likely to be overlooked. So judging by appearances may not be the best approach. But there are no statistics to go on. Interesting and puzzling.

 

[curious seeker]

Hi Naranyanjot

Well it can only be addressed by surveys I guess. I would say that where it might be detrimental , would be among those who may ask themselves something a long the lines of: 'Why would be the Creator of untold billions of stars, suns and planets, one who is TRUTH and does not seem, in the GGS, to require other 'forms', but rather to be concerned with substance, be requiring men to not cut their hair? '

I do not know enough about the GGS and the Gurus, to answer that question. How would you answer it; Narayanjot. How would other Sikhs? I am curious

 

[Caspian]

Even when i use to consider myself a sikh. I found this issue to be unanswerable in light of the SGGS. Sure, there are answers, but there no logically satisfying answers (IMO). Other sikhs choose to keep there here for the following reasons:

1) The guru's told them too
2) God gave us hair so we should respect it and not cut it
3) To be unique and easily identifiable as a sikh
etc

 

[curious seeker]

Even when i use to consider myself a sikh. I found this issue to be unanswerable in light of the SGGS. Sure, there are answers, but there no logically satisfying answers (IMO). Other sikhs choose to keep there here for the following reasons:

1) The guru's told them too
2) God gave us hair so we should respect it and not cut it
3) To be unique and easily identifiable as a sikh
etc

Hi Caspian

Well, the argument from authority is not my favorite, is too Abrahamic. The second, with all due respect, does not really seem like an answer. I mean the Wonderful Teacher is seen, at least theologically from what I have read, preocuppied with the substance of things not with ordinances that are only forms, with little meaning, after all God has also given us nails, should we then not cut them?. However, the third 'answer' could be acceptable. Does the GGS adress the why of the command or guidance?

Blessings
Curious

 

[Embers]

One perspective is that Kesh is the result (or preperation) of the surrender of our free will. When our will is no longer seen as equal or more than Hukam of Akal then we "do" what our envionrment (nature) dictates of us. Doing is no longer done by the individual, althought it is witnessed just as before by the body, mind and senses. Instead doing is done and all that is done is the best it can be. It is the best it can be as it is His hukam. That isn't to imply that we will all have kesh or that kesh is because we have overcome egoism, however it does imply the question no longer arises of "is Kesh for me" but we walk with our head held high in the way of His will (Hukam).

 

[curious seeker]

One perspective is that Kesh is the result (or preperation) of the surrender of our free will. When our will is no longer seen as equal or more than Hukam of Akal then we "do" what our envionrment (nature) dictates of us. Doing is no longer done by the individual, althought it is witnessed just as before by the body, mind and senses. Instead doing is done and all that is done is the best it can be. It is the best it can be as it is His hukam. That isn't to imply that we will all have kesh or that kesh is because we have overcome egoism, however it does imply the question no longer arises of "is Kesh for me" but we walk with our head held high in the way of His will (Hukam).

Hi Ambers

I see! It is a a wonderful yet subtle and nuanced point, and it does make sense. Now, I myself, prefer the argument that goes along the lines that, this is telling the world that you are Sikh, that you are different, that you march to the beat of a different drummer, that you look at the world from a different point of view. I guess I preffer it because I have acquired such an aversion to submitting myself to what men say is the will of God. I mean it could be God's will and again ... Generally, if its something that makes no sense in the light of what God's has revealed of His nature in the context of the whole of scripture I just cannot accept it

Please do not consider this disrespectful, but, I have belonged to religious traditions that insist on teaching things that lead to all sorts of problems , just on the basis of an authority ascribed to men or their interpretations of sacred books. I also look at the world with clear eyes and can see what such blind obedience can lead to, after all, the ultimate act of blind obedience is strapping a bomb to your body and blowing yourself up or flying a jet liner into a building.

Its a matter of both faith and the type of faith you hold. I need to be convinced in my heart and mind. I cannot just shut off my critical reasoning, because it is a gift from the Creator and Lover of the Cosmos. Thus, when I look at a scripture , like say, the Proverbs in the Bible and It reads: 'Son, do not lean on your own understanding ... ' I remember that God does not lie but men do and just dare not accept such statements as coming from the True One, unless they are corroborated by revelations of God's nature. (In this case such would have to be,that He does not want us to think or understand, which of course is NOT what God's nature has been revealed as.)

Thus I can see why it would be useful to have, (what is the term?) Kesh, as a statement and also as a way of personal commitment, I can also see where a willing acceptance of God's guidance and-or will is eminently desirable, its just that I am very weary of leaning only on that, if. in any way such requirement requires of us, or if God to say or do something against His nature.

On a lighter note, I see what I believe is a Spanish Flag as your location. Am I right? If that is so, do you speak Spanish and can you point me to a Spanish version of the GSS? Many thanks for your insporing answer.

Blessings
Curious

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Hi Ambers

I see! It is a a wonderful yet subtle and nuanced point, and it does make sense. Now, I myself, prefer the argument that goes along the lines that, this is telling the world that you are Sikh, that you are different, that you march to the beat of a different drummer, that you look at the world from a different point of view. I guess I preffer it because I have acquired such an aversion to submitting myself to what men say is the will of God. I mean it could be God's will and again ... Generally, if its something that makes no sense in the light of what God's has revealed of His nature in the context of the whole of scripture I just cannot accept it

Please do not consider this disrespectful, but, I have belonged to religious traditions that insist on teaching things that lead to all sorts of problems , just on the basis of an authority ascribed to men or their interpretations of sacred books. I also look at the world with clear eyes and can see what such blind obedience can lead to, after all, the ultimate act of blind obedience is strapping a bomb to your body and blowing yourself up or flying a jet liner into a building.

Its a matter of both faith and the type of faith you hold. I need to be convinced in my heart and mind. I cannot just shut off my critical reasoning, because it is a gift from the Creator and Lover of the Cosmos. Thus, when I look at a scripture , like say, the Proverbs in the Bible and It reads: 'Son, do not lean on your own understanding ... ' I remember that God does not lie but men do and just dare not accept such statements as coming from the True One, unless they are corroborated by revelations of God's nature. (In this case such would have to be,that He does not want us to think or understand, which of course is NOT what God's nature has been revealed as.)

Thus I can see why it would be useful to have, (what is the term?) Kesh, as a statement and also as a way of personal commitment, I can also see where a willing acceptance of God's guidance and-or will is eminently desirable, its just that I am very weary of leaning only on that, if. in any way such requirement requires of us, or if God to say or do something against His nature.

On a lighter note, I see what I believe is a Spanish Flag as your location. Am I right? If that is so, do you speak Spanish and can you point me to a Spanish version of the GSS? Many thanks for your insporing answer.

Blessings
Curious

Curious,

Guru Fateh.

You make very excellent points.

Some years ago I wrote something about it on this forum which was something like this," As we stand out, it is our obligation to be outstanding".

I would like to request the administrators to locate this thread/post.


Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Hi Ambers



On a lighter note, I see what I believe is a Spanish Flag as your location. Am I right? If that is so, do you speak Spanish and can you point me to a Spanish version of the GSS? Many thanks for your insporing answer.

Blessings
Curious

The digital version of SGGS in Spanish is available on line. It is a 1.9 MB file -- too large for me to upload as an attachment. You can also search SGGS using a Gurbani search tool at SikhiToTheMax SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge in Spanish.

Line for the SSGS in Spanish

http://www.mrsikhnet.com/index.php/2008/11/01/spanish-translation-of-siri-guru-granth-on-sttm/
Spanish Translation of Siri Guru Granth on STTM



Today there is exciting news for the Spanish Speaking people of the world! You can now view Spanish translations of Gurbani when doing a search for a shabad on SikhiToTheMax.com.


Recently before his passing, Singh Sahib Babaji Singh Khalsa finished translating the Siri Guru Granth Sahib into Spanish after 30 years of work and multiple bouts of cancer he completed this seva. With digital versions of this spanish translation

 

[curious seeker]

The digital version of SGGS in Spanish is available on line. It is a 1.9 MB file -- too large for me to upload as an attachment. You can also search SGGS using a Gurbani search tool at SikhiToTheMax SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge in Spanish.

Line for the SSGS in Spanish

http://www.mrsikhnet.com/index.php/2008/11/01/spanish-translation-of-siri-guru-granth-on-sttm/
Spanish Translation of Siri Guru Granth on STTM



Today there is exciting news for the Spanish Speaking people of the world! You can now view Spanish translations of Gurbani when doing a search for a shabad on SikhiToTheMax.com.


Recently before his passing, Singh Sahib Babaji Singh Khalsa finished translating the Siri Guru Granth Sahib into Spanish after 30 years of work and multiple bouts of cancer he completed this seva. With digital versions of this spanish translation

Dear Narayanjot

How can I thank you? This is a great treasure, indeed! I think in English and speak English, but Spanish is so very close to the hearst Besides there are 400 million Spanish speakers that I know need something like this. Thank you, thank, you, thank you!

In comparing English to Spanisn versions, it reminded me that you once gave a definition for hukam. I believe that it was something like His general universal will or plan. I get the feeling that is more than that even. Are there some studies on this point that delve into the phylology/etymology and the deeper meanings implied in the term. I want to see if I can get a better grasp of it.

You are not only blessed, you are a blessing

Curious

 

[spnadmin]

curious seeker ji

I will check on other resources regarding hukam. However that e -book discusses this in depth. Many things on the web give a very superficial explanation.

You can also check Sikhism - Reflections On Gurbani for explanations that are linked to tuks from SGGS. I rely on that site a lot.

<center> "HUKAM"


HUKAM

Everyone is subject to the Divine Hukam; no one is beyond His Hukam.
O Nanak, one who understands His Hukam does not speak in ego (sggs 1).
<><><><>
</center> In simplistic terms, "Hukam" simply means Divine Command, Divine Will, Eternal Law, Cosmic Order, Divine Dandaa (or Danda) etc. Other aspects of the Divine "Hukam" as revealed in the Gurbani include 1) It is all prevailing; 2) It is beyond any mundane description; and 3) It is driven by one's Karma, 4) and therefore, we are urged to submit to the Divine "Hukam". But how can one do God's "Hukam" or Will ("Bhaanaa Mannanaa" )? To be abided in "Hukam" is accepting life as it presents to oneself. It is simply saying "Yes, I accept". In other words, it is just accepting one's all joy and suffering as God's Will.or Bhaanaa.

The thought of Divine "Hukam" is very essential part of the teachings of the Gurbani (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, SGGS) or Gurmat. Accordingly, Baabaa Nanak made it very clear in the outset of the SGGS that everything and everybody is subject to this Divine "Hukam". And whosoever understands this Truth will be freed from the false ego-sense (Haume).​

• ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥: Hukamai andar sabh ko baahar hukam na koi. Nanak hukamai je bujhai ta houmai kehai na koi: Everyone is subject to the Divine Hukam; no one is beyond His Hukam.O Nanak, one who understands His Hukam, does not speak in ego (sggs 1).
• ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਬਪੁੜੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਗਵਾਰ ॥ ਮਨਹਠਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਨਾ ਸਚਿ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥੬॥: Hukam na jaanahi bapure bhoolahi phirahi gavaar ...: The wretched fools do not know God's Hukam or Will; they wander around making mistakes. They go about their business stubborn-mindedly; they are disgraced forever and ever. Inner peace does not come to them; they do not embrace love for the True God ||6|| (sggs 66).
• ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਬੁਝਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥: Haumai vich bhagati na hovaee hukam n bujhiaa jaayi: In egotism, devotional service can not be performed, and the Hukam (Will or Command) cannot be understood (sggs 560).

During "Sidh Gosti" (also spelt Sidh Gost etc.), Sidhas posed many questions to Baabaa Nanak (ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਸਿਧ ਗੋਸਟਿ, 938-946). Specifically, he was asked "Who are you?". His answer was, "I came from the Celestial Lord; I go wherever He orders me to go. I am Nanak, forever under His Will."​

• ਸਹਜੇ ਆਏ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਿਧਾਏ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਦਾ ਰਜਾਏ ॥: Sahaje aaye hukam sidhaaye Nanak sadaa rajaaye: I came from the Celestial Lord; I go wherever He orders me to go. I am Nanak, forever under His Will (sggs 938).

Article continues at HUKAM

 

[curious seeker]

Hello Narayanjot

WOW! My heart is melting! Once again thanks! I do not want to ascribe to my opinions some sort of discernment, since obviously I do not know enough to discern the gloriously deep meanings of the GGS conceptions, but, may I say, that IF as the GGS is saying the Hukam is, 'driven by our karma , then its technically not God's will (I say technically, because in a greater sense EVERYTHING is God's will) Rather it seems to be that it is God's Eternal Law , a deeper more profound Asha which is a also a profound concept in and of itself, in Zoroastrianism and stands both for physical laws and ethical ones as well as Truth and Right. To be an Ashavan (literally a lover of Asha) is to be seeking righteousness and trurfulness , to be seeking God's Eternal Law, its somewhat like being aGurmukh.

I am .. heck, I do not know howIi really feel , the concept is so incredibly deep there is nothing that can describe it enough. I mean Asha is a complex and deed concept but this ... Asha is like as complex as a children's riddle compared to do this. I mean I always thought that Zarathushtra was the greatest human mind in the last 3500 to 4000 years but this , this is ... am at a lost for words, something not easy for me since as you may have noticed I am always expressing myself But this ... gee, this is DIVINE

Where has this been all my life? How come this is not better known? I mean even obtuse teachings are fairly well known, but this, this ocean of spirituality, is not better known? I can't believe it? Narayanyot this has to be shouted from the roof tops whispered in the ears, broadcasted over all the radios and TVs of the world! This, and I HAVE BEEN STUDYING RELIGIONS ALMOST 24/7 FOR 29 YEARS NOW, HAS NO EQUAL AND I AM NOT EXAGGERATING, WHICH OF COURSE YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE SINCE I AM SHOUTING, BUT I CANNOT HELP MYSELF:happy:

Can I ask you a question and is serious, more serious than you may think. Has any one considered translating, into the vernaculars of different peoples, all those terms like naad, gurmukh, hukam etc , I mean there must we hundreds, that are in GGS English and Spanish version alone, so that non-Punjabi speakers and those not familiar with this truly amazingly and wonderful faith get to better understand the message at first impression?

You, all of you, Narayanjot, Mai, Lee, Caspian and the others have truly been a blessingg to me I hope, that I can keep on learning. I am just scratching the surface and .. again all I can say is WOW!

Be Blessed!
Curious,
Who is becoming more and more curious

 

[Embers]

Lovely post Curious.
Here are a few (personal) ideas which can be picked up or dropped as wished... like leaves on an autumn's day

The seeking is the last barrier to be dropped. The mind needs answers before it can "let go" and become one with God. Consequently there is one idea to be kept in mind until that moment, which is that all religions point to the same source i.e. God/Vahreguru. All words and ideas only point to (or away from) that source. Hence it is useful to satisfy the minds doubts with answers first, in my experience. Then those answers will come when the mind doubts arises. Ultimately you, the Self, will be known as That which watches the mind and its thoughts dance. That is (what I consider) to be the first step into His Mansion.

Ik man ek ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai man kī lāhi bẖarāʼnṯ.
With one-pointed mind, meditate on the One Lord, and the doubts of your mind will be dispelled.

Nām niḏẖān saḏ man vasai mahlī pāvai thā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Treasure of the Naam abides forever within the mind, and one's place of rest is found in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. ||1||Pause||

Nij gẖar mahal pāvhu sukẖ sėhje bahur na ho▫igo ferā. ||3||
Within the home of your own inner being, you shall obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence with intuitive ease. You shall not be consigned again to the wheel of reincarnation. ||3||

 

[Lee]

Hello Narayanjot

WOW! My heart is melting! Once again thanks! I do not want to ascribe to my opinions some sort of discernment, since obviously I do not know enough to discern the gloriously deep meanings of the GGS conceptions, but, may I say, that IF as the GGS is saying the Hukam is, 'driven by our karma , then its technically not God's will (I say technically, because in a greater sense EVERYTHING is God's will) Rather it seems to be that it is God's Eternal Law , a deeper more profound Asha which is a also a profound concept in and of itself, in Zoroastrianism and stands both for physical laws and ethical ones as well as Truth and Right. To be an Ashavan (literally a lover of Asha) is to be seeking righteousness and trurfulness , to be seeking God's Eternal Law, its somewhat like being aGurmukh.

Curious Ji,

Yes indeed there is agreat truth here of you can see it. I have been thinking for the last several years about Free Will and Hukam.

As far as I can see the point of religion in general is to pursaude one to give over his or indeed her will, in favour of the will of God.

That is God asks us to strive to get closer to God, by surrendering our own will and saying instaed, 'Not my ohh lord but yours'. Of course for us to do this, then we must have ownership of our will in the first place.

Much of religion leads me to this conclusion and much of Sikhi ensures it for me.

 

[Embers]

Curious Ji,

Yes indeed there is agreat truth here of you can see it. I have been thinking for the last several years about Free Will and Hukam.

As far as I can see the point of religion in general is to pursaude one to give over his or indeed her will, in favour of the will of God.

That is God asks us to strive to get closer to God, by surrendering our own will and saying instaed, 'Not my ohh lord but yours'. Of course for us to do this, then we must have ownership of our will in the first place.

Much of religion leads me to this conclusion and much of Sikhi ensures it for me.

I share your perspective Lee I see all religions, even the "godless" ones leading to giving up free will, even if the term "free will" doesn't arise in their scripture. I do differ on one point, my perspective is that once His will is accepted, then it became clear there was no free will before, rather desire and repulsion which lead "me" before.

 

[Lee]

I share your perspective Lee I see all religions, even the "godless" ones leading to giving up free will, even if the term "free will" doesn't arise in their scripture. I do differ on one point, my perspective is that once His will is accepted, then it became clear there was no free will before, rather desire and repulsion which lead "me" before.

Hey Ambers,

Yes I'm sorta still wresting with that one, the whole concpet of duality does suggest that you might be right. It don't quite 'feel' correct to me though.

If as you suggest it is desire and repulsion then then the obvious question to ask must be 'Who is it which feels these compulsions?'

Or put another way 'What is the Self?'

As Sikhs we learn that if we try hard enough, if we practice our faith as Guru ji has told us, then at some point' intuitive understanding' occours.
I belive such a state can only come with God's grace (take a step towards God and God will take a 1000 towards you). Perhaps what you suggest is part of such 'understanding' perhaps not? Hah I guess there really is only the one way to find out for sure.

 

[Embers]

Hey Ambers,

Yes I'm sorta still wresting with that one, the whole concpet of duality does suggest that you might be right. It don't quite 'feel' correct to me though.

If as you suggest it is desire and repulsion then then the obvious question to ask must be 'Who is it which feels these compulsions?'

Or put another way 'What is the Self?'

As Sikhs we learn that if we try hard enough, if we practice our faith as Guru ji has told us, then at some point' intuitive understanding' occours.
I belive such a state can only come with God's grace (take a step towards God and God will take a 1000 towards you). Perhaps what you suggest is part of such 'understanding' perhaps not? Hah I guess there really is only the one way to find out for sure.

Absolutely! Who is having these thoughts? And where is the limit to the Self?

In nondualism the limits are still within the divine, even if we watch the waves the waves are still the ocean. We limit ourselves to the body-mind or to our nationality or background, but at the ultimate level are as much a part of the human race as we are a part of the universe itself. Without limits! It is overcoming the limitations, often self created by the mind in its attempt to understand our sensual data. This higher pespective helps to arrive at the nondual perspective, and I find my Self closer to Him than I ever imagined possible. Who am I? Once I questioned all the preconceptions e.g. nationality, likes-dislikes etc, I find I am no less than a part of the sum from one angle and the sum itself from the other extreme. It is liberating yet unknown in its depth.

Regarding our intuitive understanding, my understanding is that there are different paths which lead to the goal. The path we follow as Sikhs is a Bhakti (devotional) path. Some describe this as slower or "emotiontial" as we arrive at the goal without relying heavily on intellect. The other path is Jñana or the Intellectual Path, which is more difficult but quicker in theory. All of this is debatable of course and debate is a distraction. What is useful is that we know the goal and understand our way (or combination of them to help still our mind). Personally I think we do what comes naturally (intuitively), be it prayer, worship or kirtan then that is our way, if we find we go to the scriptures, or a mixture, then so be it too, it is the inner guru which leads us from darkness, is it not. Again, it is doing what is natural (hukam) rather than what we think looks good to others (egoism).

 

[curious seeker]

Curious Ji,

Yes indeed there is agreat truth here of you can see it. I have been thinking for the last several years about Free Will and Hukam.

As far as I can see the point of religion in general is to pursaude one to give over his or indeed her will, in favour of the will of God.

That is God asks us to strive to get closer to God, by surrendering our own will and saying instaed, 'Not my ohh lord but yours'. Of course for us to do this, then we must have ownership of our will in the first place.

Much of religion leads me to this conclusion and much of Sikhi ensures it for me.

Hi Lee

The thing that as far as my spiritual experiences have shown me . What the Lover wants is for us to give up Free Will as an act of Free Will!!! Think about it.

It is the hardest thing a human can do and yet if you experience the presence of the Guru, it can be the easiest thing at least for a time.. The struggle comes when you try to remain surrendered ALL the time..

Zarathushtra tried rather successfully, conceptually speaking, to simplify the struggle by reducing it to good words, good thoughts, good deeds. It is thorough but, in practice, requires iron discipline to submit the mind. He recommended tushnami (silent meditation) Bit that went way with him.

Indeed, the one weak link in Zoroastrian teaching, is that after Zarathushtra we never hear about meditation, prayer was the lone spiritual weapon. Well that and the fact that it has gotten more and more cerebral and is busy now condemning mysticism on grounds that seem bogus to me.

Blessings
Curious


l