Hello Curious
Thanks for the interesting replies
This is a topic I have had to consider.
The limitaiton or division between us and God arises with identification with the body and mind. We take ourselves to be the body and the mind without question. It is essentially materialism (maya) which stops us from seeing the message of the Gurus. This leads to us missing the nondual Being.
Here are a few lines from the SGGS, although I am posting in the interfaith as a nondualist:
Man ṯan ṯerā ṯū ḏẖaṇī garab nivār same▫o. ||3||
Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3||
Jẖūṯẖ samagrī man vasī pārbarahm na jānā. ||2||
The false material world abides in his mind, and he does not understand the Supreme Lord God. ||2||
Parpancẖ cẖūkai sacẖ samā▫e. ||1||
Then, the illusion of the material world is shattered, and one merges in Truth. ||1||
Sakṯī kinai na pā▫i▫o fir janam bināsā.
Through the material universe of Shakti, no one has ever found the Lord; they continue to be born and die in reincarnation.
It is because we consider ourselves to be seperate individuals, by bone, blood and mind, that the belief that we have freewill arises. It arises as we believe we are the actor, responsible for both the action and the results.
There is more than one way to arrive at God, but whilst we take ourselves to be the body-mind material organism then we will face the riddle of freewill and with it the desire and repulsion that comes with being the body-mind. With this limitation too comes the limit of power which you speak of above. God has the ability to limit Himself it seems, as He experiences His creation (the sensual world) through His creation (mankind). He is both limited and limitless and we can know Him as both.
Hope this is ueful
Hi Amber
I think we have semantical, interpretative and extentional differences, in our outlooks and interpretations. So lets take then one by one and point for point.
1. You say above:
'' The limitaiton or division between us and God arises with identification with the body and mind. ''.
I do not believe for one moment, that any idea of true physical separation could apply to God and man. Not only is god, in essence, not physical but He (or S-He since after all God must surely transcend sex) indwells or is immanent Creeation, at least partially since He also Transcends it) Thus there cannot be true separation from God. This is a Semantic difference.
However while it is true that we identify ourselves as different from all others, i.e. as individuals , basically because we identify ourselves as a body an a mind, there is also no question that, PHYSICALLY.(whether physicality is also a perception or not is immaterial for practical purposes) we ARE individuals. Thus we must assume that PHYSICALLY we have been created as individuals. Please understand that I am not endorsing a dualism of realities, a physical and a non'material one, but I AM saying that the one reality has different dimensions or planes. (Please refer to String Theory and the curvature of the Cosmos) In any case assuming that we are created as individuals, physically speaking, we will be individuals, as long as, we are physical. This is, I perceive , and Interpretative difference in our positions?
But there is another interpretative difference, that I perceive in our positions. To simplify, I believe, and understand that Sikhi agrees, the Creator to be both Transcendent and Immanent. Therefore as Immanent He is in us and we are Him in as Non-Physical Essences , that is in spirit. BUT as Transcended He is OTHER from His creation, outside of it, so to speak.
So when the GGS says , to quote you quoting the Guru, that:
'' Then, the illusion of the material world is shattered, and one merges in Truth. ''
The Guru is saying that (according to my conclusion) we are both merging into God (Truth) and into the truth that He is both the SAME and DIFFERENT than us. So to what extent can we then truly merge with Him? The answer, again in my opinion, involves what I call the extentional difference in our positions. We merge TOTALLY with God but since He is Greater and other as well as the same is Spirit with us we are still individuals vi a vis HIM. He therefore DOES NOT , cannot really, merge totally with us. In other words to the EXTENT (from where I get Extentional) that HE is in us and we are in Him we are merged To the extent that HE is OTHER than us, we remain individuals vis a vis Him. That is why I say that we will never be totally Him. Specifically, His CREATIVE qualities and powers are His PRIOR TO creation and are thus Transcendent and thus Other than and from Creation
Free Will is not a riddle, it is the Gift of God to man so that he can choose on his own the Wahe Guru and merge with Him spirit to spirit and achieve salvation and liberation. That man, ignorant and blinded by illusion and the illusionary world, does not know this and does not know the purpose and use for his free will , is something different from denying the Free Will, that is both a God given Gift of Grace and the Tool for man to willingly Choose to surrender to God. The problem is IGNORANCE and ILLUSION not Free Will
Finally, I would like to emphasize that even though the Wahe Guru is Transcendent and Immanent He is not dual as a BEING. Uniformity is not Oneness, variety and nuances in the divine person do not change His nature, He has been, is and for ever will be ONE! His character has different dimensions and qualities , yet He is One and Forever the same! He is the Blessed Blesser, the Desired of All Hearts and Souls for All the Ages!
Be Blessed!
Curious
