GGS Being Burnt

[ActsOfGod]

What is the raagmaala? Does anyone know where it came from? Who authored it? Are there any old Bir's in existence which do not have the raagmaala?

 

[ActsOfGod]

Just looked this up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragmala

Seems a bit suspicious, especially considering the following:

"This raagmala is nearest to the Hanuman Mat, but the arrangement of raags in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is nearer to the Saiv Mala and the Kalinath Mat which give primacy to Siri Raag."

"In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji no distinction has been made between raags and rdgims and all the measures employed have been given the status of raags, each one of them recognized in its own right and not as “wife” or “son” to another raag. In practice over a long stretch of time, Gurmat Sangeet, i.e. Sikh music, has evolved its own style and conventions which make it a system distinct from other Indian systems."

"There are 8 raags that are utilised in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that have not been mentioned in the Raagmala. These are: Bihagara, Wadahans, Manjh, Jaitsri, Ramkali, Tukhari, Prabhati and Jaijawanti."

 

[ActsOfGod]

And this was a very informative article on the issue as well:

http://www.sikhanswers.com/sacred-literature-sikh-studies/raagmala/

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

What is the raagmaala? Does anyone know where it came from? Who authored it? Are there any old Bir's in existence which do not have the raagmaala?

Its a Long long story....

1. Bhai kahn Singh nabha Mahan Kosh has ample info...
2. The AKJ sites have ample evidence as well. One that I am sure has the info is www.tapoban.com (and its Archived Forums has good discussionson this ). Tapoban.com has the Book well researched and full of info on this on its site and it may be downloadable. Please do check it out.

3. Cutting long story short...its a CUT and Paste Job....so many do it now a days..but apparently it was also practised in the 16th century...
Raagmala in the SGGS..is a "small part" of the Original raagmala which is in a book written by madhav naal and its titles Kaam kandla.....and the BIGGEST PROOF of it being fake is that in the ORIGINAL BOOK..the NUMBERINGS are consequitive..BUT in the few stanzas INSERTED into the abck of the SGGS..Every Stanza is numbered [[ 1]]...which is against the Rules of Numbering Guru Arjun Ji used in the entire SGGS. The COPYCAT fake who ADDED this Few Stanzas was either too stupid or trying to be clever....HIDING BEHIND a Brand NEW Number system..[1] and repeating the same [1] throughout !!! Or did he forget to count...or was he ignorant that [1] is followed by [2] and so on.... The FORGER who LIFTED the Chaupaii from BNG and Cut and pasted it into the Nitnem also used this same trick..but he was cleverer..he started form [1] and carried on....

4. By the way..this Exact Same "trick" is also used in the Kabio Baach benti Chaupaii...in its ORIGINAL PLACE in the Charitropkhyan sections of Bachitar natak Granth..its Stanzas are Consequitevly numbered....BUT when INSERTED into the NITNEM via GUTKAS..the Consequitive numberings were CHANGED to 1,2 3,4...???? What reason to CHANGE..the ORIGINAL STANZA number 378...to [[ 1]]...and 379 to [[2]] and so ON ??

And this "staged controversy" is giving ammunition to Sikhism enemies...to challenge the Divinity of SGGS as Not authored by the Sikh Gurus...PM Me for links to Islamic sites using this to attack Sikhisma nd SGGS. I dont want to publicise these for free..

NOTE: All the "arguments"....about many SGGS Birs having "raagmala" and very few NOT having it...REINFORCE the Argument as to WHY the Present day FRENZY to CREMATE as many SGGS Birs all over the world....as can be done quickly....is the reason why this must be RESISTED IMMEDIATELY....100 years down the Line..in 3014...THIS will be the Exact same argument..."Show me which SGGS doesnt have Bindees...adhaks..which SGGS bir has [[Jap]] with Dandees ?? Show me which SGGS Bir has Moolmantar ONLy till Gurparsaad ?? etc etc..becasue..the ONLY SGGS Birs that will be allowed to "survive" are the altered ones...We have been FOOLED ONCE..by the Nirmalas and Udasis who took over our Gurdwaras and Granths and manufactured fakes while Sikhs hid in the forests riding on horseback for years on end...and if we are FOOLED a second time by the DERAWADEES descendants of these same Nirmalas/Udasis...and let them LOOT the real Khazanah and leave us with GLASS BEADS..then we deserve to be fooled....WAKE UP KHALSA JI...and Guard your Pio daddeh da Khazanah..!!!
[/FONT]

 

[ActsOfGod]

Thank you Giani Jarnail Singh Ji, this is very educational.

I am very interested and curious to learn about the numbering system used in SGGS. Where can I learn more about it and how it's organized? If you have any details on this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Is there any possible spiritual message or relevance of the raagmala? What purpose might it serve for one to read about the various raags in classical music? I guess I'm wondering why the person would want to insert the verses into a spiritual text like SGGS, what would the motivation be?

It feels very strange that a composition that is not genuinely from Guru or anyone approved by the Guru should be sitting in the same bound volume as all the other real Gurbani. It also feels odd to do matha tek to some composition that is kachi bani. Don't know how others feel about it? How do you reconcile this with your own feelings and thoughts?

AoG

 

[Abneet]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Guru-Granth-Sahib-can-be-sent-abroad-only-by-air-Akal-Takht/articleshow/35083598.cms

Now Akal Takht says GGS can only be transported through air? this is bogus! SGPC was supposed to make a printing facility here in the US and failed to do so and now they are making this statement responding to the bus incident of GGS in a shipping container (which is beadbi imho).

 

[Tejwant Singh]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Guru-Granth-Sahib-can-be-sent-abroad-only-by-air-Akal-Takht/articleshow/35083598.cms

Now Akal Takht says GGS can only be transported through air? this is bogus! SGPC was supposed to make a printing facility here in the US and failed to do so and now they are making this statement responding to the bus incident of GGS in a shipping container (which is beadbi imho).

Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Do you agree with the Akaal Takhat's decision? Please elaborate if you do, then why and if you do not then why not?

Please also elaborate your comments in BOLD.

1. What do you consider beidbi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in your own understanding?
2. Is there a difference between Guru Shabad and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Please elaborate with your thoughts so we can learn from each other.

Input from all would be highly appreciated.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Well put Tejwant ji...as Guru nanak Ji has already suggested..Vaidah..pehllan ROG Pehchaann....OH Medic..First of all DIAGNOSE the Disease..only then can we commence the cure..

 

[Abneet]

Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Do you agree with the Akaal Takhat's decision? Please elaborate if you do, then why and if you do not then why not?

Please also elaborate your comments in BOLD.

1. What do you consider beidbi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in your own understanding?
2. Is there a difference between Guru Shabad and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Please elaborate with your thoughts so we can learn from each other.

Input from all would be highly appreciated.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh

I say Akal Takht is going too far with this decision. I can see their point of view but they don't understand that why not just suggest proper care of GGS when it's transported. Having it go through a plane is limiting the amount in my opinion even when SGPC said they would built a facility here US. They need to think of better solutions.
Beadbi can be anything unproperly done to the GGS whether be poorly transporting it or not taking care of it in a mannerly way. Also beadbi I think could be taking text out of GGS and using it out of text to suit your purpose. Same thing as manmat or similar but again it's wrong.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I say Akal Takht is going too far with this decision. I can see their point of view but they don't understand that why not just suggest proper care of GGS when it's transported. Having it go through a plane is limiting the amount in my opinion even when SGPC said they would built a facility here US. They need to think of better solutions.
Beadbi can be anything unproperly done to the GGS whether be poorly transporting it or not taking care of it in a mannerly way. Also beadbi I think could be taking text out of GGS and using it out of text to suit your purpose. Same thing as manmat or similar but again it's wrong.

Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh,

I happen to agree with you about the plane part. In fact you will be able to find some posts about the matter when a plane was chartered to take the sggs to Toronto. For me it was a total waste of money which could have been spent for a better purpose and it made sggs our only Guru as idols/murtis tied with the seat belts.

Having said that please respond to my question number 2.

2. Is there a difference between Guru Shabad and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Please elaborate with your thoughts so we can learn from each other.

Lastly, you forgot to elaborate on the following:

now they are making this statement responding to the bus incident of GGS in a shipping container (which is beadbi imho).


Please also elaborate your comments in BOLD about beidbi in the above.

Was the bus stuffed in a shipping container? I am a bit confused by your assertion and what is your plan to bring the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji outside India?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

 

[Abneet]

Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh,

I happen to agree with you about the plane part. In fact you will be able to find some posts about the matter when a plane was chartered to take the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to Toronto. For me it was a total waste of money which could have been spent for a better purpose and it made Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru as idols/murtis tied with the seat belts.

Having said that please respond to my question number 2.



Lastly, you forgot to elaborate on the following:



Was the bus stuffed in a shipping container? I am a bit confused by your assertion and what is your plan to bring the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji outside India?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Just saw a video explaining te situation that the guru Granth sahib a were in. Apparently there were over 100 GGS in the bus and no one was on that bus looking after them which lead to poor conditions in the end. First it was sent by ship then by bus. I do say GGS should have uttermost care and sgpc should of sent a seevadar or have someone atleast on the whole trip to look after the books I don't know why they could of thought of that earlier. Also carrying it on a plane that could of other substances could be a problem but in Canada and America we definitely need our own printing facility without hand of SGPC. Hopefully some gurmukhs in the future can make it happen. Also answer to the second question I don't see a major difference between gur shabad and GGS. I see gur shabad embodied in the GGS itself so I really don't see no difference.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

What is the raagmaala? Does anyone know where it came from? Who authored it? Are there any old Bir's in existence which do not have the raagmaala?

Here is a link to the most scholarly book published on this subject...

the Raagmala word for word was published in a book almost 21 years BEFORE the AAD GRANTH !!!....

http://www.panjabdigilib.org/webuse...sp?ID=10228&page=4&CategoryID=1&Searched=W3GX

you will have to register an account and gain access to Punjab Digital Library to read the whole book...(Account is FREE..so go ahead and REGISTEr and also HELP the PDL people to preserve our heritage...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Then you will see solid proofs that even respected writers like Bhai Vir Singh can intentionally (or not..... if we give them benefit of the doubt)...refuse to see FACTS and stick to their own opinion as TRUTH....So many English and Hindi authors and historians acknowledge Alam as poet of Akbars time and Bhai Vir Singh contiues to assert otherwise based on just his own surmission....
At First Bhai Vir Singh also OPPOSED the Raagmala as Gurbani...but then someone he didnt like...also agreed with the Ragamala opposition..which made Bhai Vir Singh overnight change his position declaring that he had discovered a "pothi" that would prove his point. Despite being asked several times the said "pothi" never saw the light of day..and till today no body knows anything about it..except that Bhai Vir Singh form Anti-raagmala became PRO ragamala...and began to support it in his Paper and writings...
The AKJ founder Bhai Randhir singh was a solid OPPONENT of Raagmala...and this Maryada was followed by MALAYSIAS BIGGEST GURDWARA..the tatt Khalsa Diwan which NEVER read the Raagmala at any Bhog of SGGS. Bhog was put at Mundawnni Mh 5. This was a hot potato with violent supporters on BOTH sides..not until the early 2000's did the BABA Generation increase in numbers and the DERAWADEE SOCH smothered the SRM of Akal takhat.

In one small Gurdwara, a well known Supporter would always occupy the Pathis seat when BHOG time was near...and the ANTI gang would catch him by the waist and remove him forcefully to PREVENT his reading the Raagmala...till one fine day..he decided to be adamant and caught the Palki legs with both hands and in the push-pull tussle the SGGS was hurled to the ground...That is the degree to which this poem ruled sikh hearts...the sight of the SGGS on the ground didnt hurt as much as not being able to read Raagmala...
And this was BEFORE..the Sikhs ahd even more issues to be divided on...meat eating..jaat paat..majha malwa..etc etc...Khalsitan..Badal vs Congress..Punjabi Suba etc etc...Now raagmala is a MINISCULE ISSUE....one among HUNDREDS...and the enemies REJOICE...

 

[Harry Haller]

we do not need any help in destroying ourselves...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Read the book and see how renowned scholars" /cheat/fabricate evidence thats fake and tell outright lies !! For decades Bhai Vir Singha nd babau teja Singh agree that Ragmala is kachi bani..then they fall out and bahi vir singh declares that even his fatehr Dr cahran Singh had "changed" his views from anti to Pro...and that this was proved by a "book" he ahd found in his bag..a book that no body ever saw...then another declared that a Prem Singh of Nabha has a certain book that proves something..it turns out that Prem Singh ahs never heard of the book he is supposedly having...."Scholars" going to great lengths to prove their right and all else wrong....one such indident happened between Maskin and Bhag Singh Ambala...Maskin brought a letter that supposedly had Bhag Singh APOLOGISE to Akal Takhat in the matter of DG.....when Maskin met Bhag Singh, the latter had weak eyesight and wanted to look for his specs..and Maskin ji hurried him by saying..here take this pena dn sign it..dont you trust me..its a letter saying blah blah blah...and so Bhag Singh did sign and later found out the Letter didnt say "blah blah blah" but said "Bleh bleh bleh" and a so called Respected panth rattan like Maskin had tricked him into apologising for calling DG a Fake granth...so there you have it...with scholars like this we dont need any MCleods or Pashauras...we can do the job ourselves...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Original Raagmala form Poet Alam - a Muslim Sufi Poet uisng f{censored}e words...and the PIRATED VERSION cut and pasted into SGGS ...

This attachment shows the ORIGINAL F{censored}E words as CORRECT..but when the Unknown pirate who copied it for cut+Paste into SGGS got ALL the F{censored}e words WRONG...

wow...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

attached Gif from page 30(32) of Shamsher Singh Ashoks book..

 

[ActsOfGod]

In one small Gurdwara, a well known Supporter would always occupy the Pathis seat when BHOG time was near...and the ANTI gang would catch him by the waist and remove him forcefully to PREVENT his reading the Raagmala...till one fine day..he decided to be adamant and caught the Palki legs with both hands and in the push-pull tussle the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was hurled to the ground...That is the degree to which this poem ruled sikh hearts...the sight of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on the ground didnt hurt as much as not being able to read Raagmala...

This is so sad and heartbreaking to read.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response. I have one request to make. Please post the URL of the video you saw so that we can all see what is in that video because most of what you have claimed to have seen on this ‘video’ is not only misleading but also totally false. If I were you I would research different sources and then form my opinion otherwise I am not taking my Sikhi responsibilities seriously and as a result it becomes a self-defeating prophecy. Before I debunk each of your false ‘factoids’ on which you based your personal opinion, I would like to say something first.

In the Sikhi spirit of full disclosure, I would like to say that this particular seva of bringing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji saroops to North America via BC was done by my family’s two trusts, Satnam Education Society/Satnam Trust in BC and Nanak Parchar Sabha in Los Angeles, CA.

We have been doing this Seva since 1979 till one of the containers in which the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji saroops used to come in wooden crates (which was the norm and authorized by SGPC) was off loaded by the honchos of DSGMC from a ship in Bombay which was to sail to Long Beach CA because of the infighting between SGPC and DSGMC. The rumour was that there were other things like shoes in the container beside the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji saroops which was untrue and the DSGMC found out after opening the container in New Delhi. It had nothing but Saroops. The practice of bringing saroops to North America stopped then and we were not able to do this seva despite the increasing Sikh population on the continent.

In fact I did write a long post here on SPN with the details about it which I would request Aman ji to dig it up and repost it here if possible.

Abneet ji,

I will wait for the URL but let me take your post point by point.

Just saw a video explaining the situation that the guru Granth sahib a were in.

Please share the video so all can see what you saw.

First it was sent by ship then by bus.

Simply Incorrect and false. The bus with saroops was loaded on the ship and was driven to Khalsa school BC after it cleared the customs.

Apparently there were over 100 GGS in the bus and no one was on that bus looking after them which lead to poor conditions in the end.

Why use the word 'Apparently' when you have claimed that you have seen the video and please explain what you mean by,

”100 GGS in the bus and no one was on that bus looking after them which lead to poor conditions in the end”.

What kind of poor conditions did you see them in the video? Please show it to us. Secondly, your number 100 is way off. The actual number of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is 441. I have no idea where you pulled out that number from

I do say GGS should have uttermost care and sgpc should of sent a seevadar or have someone atleast on the whole trip to look after the books I don't know why they could of thought of that earlier.

Firstly, I am glad you called the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji the books because that is what they are until we study our Gurus' message, understand it and practice it in our daily life, then it becomes Guru Shabad. The fact of the matter is that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji were given the maximum respect as possible. How do you want a sevadaar present on a bus in a cargo ship 24/7? This is a silly and impractical demand on your part to say the least.

You want Sevadaar to do what? Look after the Moortis/idols the way it seems you consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to be? It seems you have not given much thought in your post as a Sikh and believed in some nonsense from someone else rather than asking in this forum if anyone had any knowledge about it or finding the things yourself from multiple sources. Yes, there was a lot of hue and cry from many who showed their jealousy and envy but never came forward to do this seva, which is cowardice and cowardice not a Sikh make.

Also carrying it on a plane that could of other substances could be a problem but in Canada and America we definitely need our own printing facility without hand of SGPC. Hopefully some gurmukhs in the future can make it happen.

You above idea was offered to SGPC by the Satnam Trust. SGPC had arranged to open one in North Carolina by Nimrata Haley's father(she is a christian now and is the governor of the state). The deal was bogus and it did not go through. I am personally in favour of getting the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the crates loaded in a container from India because if we had printing press in North America, then it would be needed in all countries and cities in the world where Sikhs reside. and it would be a waste of money if printing press is used for this purpose only. It is a bad business decision. After all printing costs a lot of money and I am sure you are aware of that. I am not in favour of this but some members of my family are which is fine with me.

We received our numbers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at Khalsa Care Foundation(KCF) which is a Gurdwara linked to Nanak Parchar Sabha. The bus to take the designated saroops to Houston was waiting and some were transferred there.

I would like to share some things more about KCF.