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God's Will And The Law Of Karma

spnadmin

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Bhagat ji, Sainty ji

The Law of Karma tells us that actions have consequences. It reminds us that we are moral beings because we are accountable for our choices in life. I think we take a wrong turn when we try to figure out what percentage of our actions are self-determined and what percentage is determined by God. Rational analysis won't work. The shabad above makes us immediately conscious of the effects of our kaaram, our deeds, at the time of death. Who of us is in control of that moment? Do we realize that we have never been in control? We have acted in life as if we were in control. All of our actions, motivated by our belief that we were in control, have consequences -- good and bad. Now, what will happen?

ਜਾਨੀ ਘਤਿ ਚਲਾਇਆ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਰੁੰਨੇ ਵੀਰ ਸਬਾਏ ॥
jaanee ghath chalaaeiaa likhiaa aaeiaa runnae veer sabaaeae ||
This dear soul is driven off, when the pre-ordained Order is received, and all the relatives cry out in mourning.

ਕਾਂਇਆ ਹੰਸ ਥੀਆ ਵੇਛੋੜਾ ਜਾਂ ਦਿਨ ਪੁੰਨੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਏ ॥
kaaneiaa hans thheeaa vaeshhorraa jaan dhin punnae maeree maaeae ||
The body and the swan-soul are separated, when one's days are past and done, O my mother.

ਜੇਹਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤੇਹਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਜੇਹਾ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥
jaehaa likhiaa thaehaa paaeiaa jaehaa purab kamaaeiaa ||
As is one's pre-ordained Destiny, so does one receive, according to one's past actions.

This is the understanding put forward by Nanak - As is one's preordained Destiny, so does one receive, according to one's past actions. What will happen? Again we are faced by that interconnected image - His Hukam and our actions together determine what the next stage of spiritual consciousness will be. Whether we return, or whether we do not. This is about burning the ego, about mukhti, and not about slicing onions or people.

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿਰੰਦਾ ਸਚਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
dhhann sirandhaa sachaa paathisaahu jin jag dhhandhhai laaeiaa ||1||
Blessed is the Creator, the True King, who has linked the whole world to its tasks. ||1||

The sachaa paathisaahu has invented it all, and even karma is contained within His Hukam. One meaning of karma is deeds or actions -- tasks. The world is linked to its kaaram, its tasks, through His Divine Order.


ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਮਰਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਭਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਪਇਆਣਾ ॥
saahib simarahu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa ||
Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to
pass this way.

Everyone has to pass this way through birth and then death and then we face the consequences of our kaaram. We must eventually move on to our own hereafter.
We pass through the entanglements of Maya so quickly (life is short), yet we delude ourselves into thinking we have more control than we really do.

ਏਥੈ ਧੰਧਾ ਕੂੜਾ ਚਾਰਿ ਦਿਹਾ ਆਗੈ ਸਰਪਰ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
eaethhai dhhandhhaa koorraa chaar dhihaa aagai sarapar jaanaa ||
These false entanglements last for only a few days; then, one must surely move on to the world hereafter.

ਆਗੈ ਸਰਪਰ ਜਾਣਾ ਜਿਉ ਮਿਹਮਾਣਾ ਕਾਹੇ ਗਾਰਬੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥
aagai sarapar jaanaa jio mihamaanaa kaahae gaarab keejai ||
He must surely move on to the world hereafter, like a guest; so why does he indulge in ego?

There is really only one way to find peace after a lifetime of self-delusion and the pain that comes from our attachment to ego. This is the way to peace

ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਦਰਗਹ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਾ ਲੀਜੈ ॥
jith saeviai dharageh sukh paaeeai naam thisai kaa leejai ||
Chant the Name of the Lord; serving Him, you shall obtain peace in His Court.


When death is approaching, that is the moment when the meaning of our kaaram becomes vividly real. Are we really so foolish to think that we were that important, that we were in control of anything at all?

ਆਗੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਮੂਲੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਿਹਾਣਾ ॥
aagai hukam n chalai moolae sir sir kiaa vihaanaa ||
In the world hereafter, no one's commands will be obeyed. According to their actions, each and every person proceeds.


The key....

ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਮਰਿਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਭਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਪਇਆਣਾ ॥੨॥
saahib simarihu maerae bhaaeeho sabhanaa eaehu paeiaanaa ||2||
Meditate in remembrance on the Lord and Master, O my Siblings of Destiny; everyone has to
pass this way. ||2||

ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੰਮ੍ਰਥ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਹੀਲੜਾ ਏਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ ॥
jo this bhaavai sanmrathh so thheeai heelarraa eaehu sansaaro ||
Whatever pleases the Almighty Lord, that alone comes to pass; this world is an opportunity to please Him.


My opinion. The effects of our kaaram are not irreversible. Mukhti comes with His nadar, with the glance of His Grace.

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥
jae this nadhar n aavee th vaath n pushhai kae ||
still, if the Lord does not bless you with His Glance of Grace, then who cares? What is the use?


We can open ourselves up to His grace. Making this choice is potentially within the reach of our consciousness. We are not dumb organisms whose actions are programmed, and we do not have to hold ourselves in contempt.

ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
keettaa andhar keett kar dhosee dhos dhharae ||
Among worms, you would be considered a lowly worm, and even contemptible sinners would hold you in contempt.

To the contrary, He raises us up above the level of worms. And He does not hold us in contempt. He has different, maybe even bigger plans for us.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥
naanak niragun gun karae gunavanthiaa gun dhae ||
O Nanak, God blesses the unworthy with virtue, and bestows virtue on the virtuous.


He makes the unworthy virtuous by blessing them with virtue; He bestows virtue on the virtuous just as well. He blesses the sinners and the saints. If we turn away from the possibility of this realization, then we are the ones who have made the wrong choice. Just my thoughts. Forgive me.
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
13
Sat shri akal,:D
pk70 ji thank you very much for ur post:yes:
[/FONT]
How one can see without the eyes?[/FONT]
[/FONT]

alright tell me what is the difference between a man who is blind and the other one who has closed his eyes?

[/FONT]

In Sikhism, low caste is mentioned to defy its purpose as it prevailed in the society otherwise Gurbani rejects it outright.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

in the previous post u hav written that one born in low caste can become equal was that valid even by this definition?

This question takes us to the beginning where we discussed” Surat”, as it is given by the Lord, He is still behind the play; however, He also has created individual entities with Surat, they act accordingly and their act becomes their responsibility. This responsibility makes the karma to be considered differently. Separation He created between the individuals and Him(Jap Ji) is enough to understand this riddle. Forget not that the chances are given to become virtuous, choices are made individually. As per Gurbani, He has created Maya also (to let the show go on in its good and bad prospective). [/FONT]

[/FONT]thanks for Ur explanation again brother.what are these individual entities with surat? explain
When one seeks virtuous Lord or just remains involved in Maya, it is also considered pre ordained writ by Guru Ji

u just mentioned that it is our choice to grab the chances given to become virtuous. but this point seems to be contrary why in this case we don't have a choice?:confused:

ਸੋ ਕਮਾਵੈਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਇ (222)
So kamāvai ḏẖur liki▫ā ho▫e. ||1||
People act as they are pre-ordained. ||1||
ਮਃ 1
ਨਾਨਕ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਡੇਧੁਰਿ ਭਾਗੈ ੧੫(353)
Nānak hirai nām vade ḏẖur bāgai. ||4||15||
O Nanak, the Naam, the Name of the Lord, abides in the heart, by the greatest pre-ordained destiny. ||4||15||
ਮਃ 1

appropriate shabad:yes:

Here Guru Nanak shows his complete surrender to Him, seeing people making choices, doing good or bad, pointing out what is not good or what is bad, still Guru believes that it all falls in His control, no question is asked “why it is so”[/FONT]
[/FONT]

point noted sir:)

[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Excellent, I couldn’t put it in better way:yes:. Thanks.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

the word thanks embarrasses me:p

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
13
Sat shri akal,:D
bhagat singh ji,

???

I have no idea where your questions are coming from. I think you have replied with a set mentality to make a mockery of what I said. I don't think you have understood my post, please read and try to understand it again and pose your questions. If anything needs clarifications, don't hesitate to tell me.

Thanks
Bhagat Singh

I was quiet serious bhagat ji. i have simply compared my example with ur's.
Ur examples were little nd not applied to much extent whereas i have considered bigger examples.:yes:
try nd understand my post nd if possible try to answer all those questions from my side.:yes:

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
13
Sat shri akal,:D
addooo2 ji,
This is the understanding put forward by Nanak - As is one's preordained Destiny, so does one receive, according to one's past actions. What will happen? Again we are faced by that interconnected image - His Hukam and our actions together determine what the next stage of spiritual consciousness will be. Whether we return, or whether we do not. This is about burning the ego, about mukhti, and not about slicing onions or people.
alright let it be but can u answer how?

The sachaa paathisaahu has invented it all, and even Karma is contained within His Hukam. One meaning of Karma is deeds or actions -- tasks. The world is linked to its kaaram, its tasks, through His Divine Order.
true :yes:
Everyone has to pass this way through birth and then death and then we face the consequences of our kaaram. We must eventually move on to our own hereafter. We pass through the entanglements of Maya so quickly (life is short), yet we delude ourselves into thinking we have more control than we really do.
maya exists without the will of god? the answer is no. Then why does it hampers our karmas(which according to you are our actions and are directed by God)?

When death is approaching, that is the moment when the meaning of our kaaram becomes vividly real. Are we really so foolish to think that we were that important, that we were in control of anything at all?
yes some of us are and even Guru Nanak had said we are controlled by gods will.
you wish to include our Guru amongst those mens?:eek:

We are not dumb organisms whose actions are programmed, and we do not have to hold ourselves in contempt.
yes now that is my point which i am trying to convey from my very first post.

He makes the unworthy virtuous by blessing them with virtue; He bestows virtue on the virtuous just as well. He blesses the sinners and the saints. If we turn away from the possibility of this realization, then we are the ones who have made the wrong choice. Just my thoughts. Forgive me
oh do u mean that a person who believes in the will of God even if he commits crime of the lowest grade waheguru will forgive him?

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~

~~sainty~~
~~wal Guru Nanak~~
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Sainty ji

What I am saying is that the Law of Karma is misunderstood when we limit its understanding to a matter of choices made for us. The Law of Karma has within it an important moral challenge to human beings. Leaving this out leads to a misunderstanding of the relationship between His Hukam and our ability to make choices.

We can say that Person X has committed a crime and that is part of the Divine Order, and still miss the point about the Law of Karma. Guru Nanak was asking us to rise to the next level and leave behind the idea that accountability for our deeds, good and bad, is beyond our control.

God blesses the unworthy with virtue, and bestows virtue on the virtuous.

What does that say to you? To me it says that both sinners and saints alike have the potential to choose dharma and reject adharma. According to the Divine Order we are given the ability to make moral choices. And according to the Divine Order we will be held accountable for our choices.

ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਦਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਸਚੈ ਛੂਟਸਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
sabhanaa kaa dhar laekhaa sachai shhoottas naam suhaavaniaa ||3||
Everyone's account is kept in the True Court, and through the Beauty of the Naam, they are saved. ||3|

Why would He hold us accountable, or offer mukhti, if our choices were meaningless and did not matter? This is the unique message of morality by Nanak Dev ji.
 

pk70

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Feb 25, 2008
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alright tell me what is the difference between a man who is blind and the other one who has closed his eyes? 9quote Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
Being blind is to have a disability of not seeing in realty, while the one who is having eye-sight but closes eyes, is in denial to acknowledge that he/she sees.[/FONT]
in the[/FONT]In Sikhism, low caste is mentioned to defy its purpose as it prevailed in the society otherwise Gurbani rejects it outright.(pk70)
previous post u hav written that one born in low caste can become equal was that valid even by this definition?(Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
In previous post it was stated that in Sikhism even being born low caste(prevailed caste and declared by the society as of low caste) can reach to the highest peak, please read what Guru says[/FONT]
ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਚਮਾਰੁ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਇਕ ਗਾਇ
Raviḏās cẖamār usṯaṯ kare har kīraṯ nimakẖ ik gā▫e.
Ravi Daas, the leather-worker, praised the Lord, and sang the Kirtan of His Praises each and every instant.
ਪਤਿਤ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ
Paṯiṯ jāṯ uṯam bẖa▫i▫ā cẖār varan pa▫e pag ā▫e. ||2||
Although he was of low social status, he was exalted and elevated, and people of all four castes came and bowed at his feet. ||2||
This is a statement that defies all standard of a society that is inflicted with caste system[/FONT]. [/FONT]It is a direct slap on those who claim that they belong to high caste due to the Lord’s will. Ravidas whom they called “Chamar”(Low caste), walked over them in spiritual pursuit and succeeded and so called of high caste remained in quagmire of Maya, caste didn’t help them, so it is just worthless and an illusion.[/FONT]
thanks for [/FONT]Ur[/FONT] explanation again brother.what are these individual entities with [/FONT]surat[/FONT]? Explain(saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
You, others and me[/FONT]
When one seeks virtuous Lord or just remains involved in Maya, it is also considered pre ordained writ by Guru Ji(pk70)
u just mentioned that it is our choice to grab the chances given to become virtuous. but this point seems to be contrary why in this case we don't have a choice?](Saint Soldier Ji) [/FONT]
Given Surat comes with a capability of making choices, Surat is given by the Lord, whatever the choices are made also get credited to Him. Confusion comes only when we look at the canvas partially. Thanks for asking and all I have answered as per my limited [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] given by the Lord.[/FONT]

Note: just want to address another point aad ji pointed out (It is supported by Gurbani)[/FONT]
He makes the unworthy virtuous by blessing them with virtue; He bestows virtue on the virtuous just as well. He blesses the sinners and the saints. If we turn away from the possibility of this realization, then we are the ones who have made the wrong choice. Just my thoughts. Forgive me(quote aad0002 Ji)
oh do u mean that a person who believes in the will of God even if he commits crime of the lowest grade waheguru will forgive him?(saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
Its answer goes back to Mool Mantra, His being “Nirvair(beyond animosity)” this virtuoso quality of the Lord prevails through His all commands, see Guru’s faith in Him on His being Nirvair when the sinner makes a choice to turn to the Lord.[/FONT]
ਅਪਰਾਧੀਪਾਪੀਉਧਰੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੁੜੀਏ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਖਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਤੇ ਰਾਮ
Aprāḏẖī pāpī uḏẖre merī jinuī▫e jan Nānak kin har rāe rām. ||4||3||
Even sinners are carried across, O my soul, if they are imbued with the Lord's Name, even for an instant, O servant Nanak. ||4||3||
ਮਃ 4 -
ਪਾਪੀਮੁਕਤੁ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਏ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਵਾਸਾ
Pāpī muka karā▫e āp gavā▫e nij gar pā▫i▫ā vāsā.
Even sinners are liberated, by eradicating their egotism; they obtain a home within their own heart.
ਮਃ 3
 

spnadmin

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This part of our conversation, sainty ji, intrigues me.

Quote:
The sachaa paathisaahu has invented it all, and even Karma is contained within His Hukam. One meaning of Karma is deeds or actions -- tasks. The world is linked to its kaaram, its tasks, through His Divine Order.

true :yes:

Quote:
Everyone has to pass this way through birth and then death and then we face the consequences of our kaaram. We must eventually move on to our own hereafter. We pass through the entanglements of Maya so quickly (life is short), yet we delude ourselves into thinking we have more control than we really do.

maya exists without the will of god? the answer is no. Then why does it hampers our karmas(which according to you are our actions and are directed by God)?

What I am thinking right now? Maybe it is this.

The Law of Karma is within His Hukam. It is part of the Divine Order. He links the world to its tasks. The Law of Karma is often understood to mean that life now and in the hereafter is a pay-back. You get what you deserve, now and in the hereafter. That is an understanding of the Law of Karma that is has been distorted by Western thinking. Even the ancients who wrote the Vedas did not understand the Law of Karma in that way. The Law of Karma is a cosmic principle -- a law of action and reaction -- everything we do has effects or consequences. Akaal Purakh has ordained it that we can reflect on the consequences of our actions.

Akaal who is the Creator of Everything has ordained it that we can make choices. We can choose to meditate upon His Name. And if we do not make this choice, then the consequence is to suffer the disease of coming and going. We can choose to move beyond Maya, and if we do not , then the consequence is to fall behind. We can choose vidya, and if we do not then we stagnate and rot in avidya. Yes, Maya hampers our ability to make these choices. Yet we can also see that by choosing to burn the ego we have the possibility of moving forward and beyond Maya.

The Satguru is not pulling our strings. It is His Hukam that we have choices and it is His Hukam that there be consequences for the choices we make. I chose the shabad for this reason. The closer we are to death (whether our own or that of another) the more likely it is that we see what we have wasted in ego. The more likely it is that we see the play that He has laid out for us (the choices and the consequences).
 

spnadmin

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ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ॥੧੦॥
RaamkaliPaatshaahi10||

ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਖ ਲਾਗੋ ॥
Praaniparam purakh pakh laago||

ਸੋਵਤ ਕਹਾ ਮੋਹ ਨਿੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਮੈ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਸੁਚਿਤ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਜਾਗੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Sovat kahaa moh nindraa mai kah-hoon suchit havaijaajo||1|| Rahaao||

ਔਰਨ ਕਹ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਤੋਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ ਨ ਲਾਗੋ ॥
Auran kah updeshat hai pasu tohe prabhdh na laage||

ਸਿੰਚਤ ਕਹਾ ਪਰੇ ਬਿਖਿਯਨ ਕਹ ਕਬਹੁ ਬਿਖੈ ਰਸ ਤਯਾਗੋ ॥੧॥
Sinchat kahaa pare bikhiyan kah kab-hu bikhai ras tyaago||1||

ਕੇਵਲ ਕਰਮ ਭਰਮ ਸੇ ਚੀਨਹੁ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੋ ॥
Kaval karam bharam ke cheenoh dharam karam anuraago||

ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਕਰੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕੋ ਪਰਮ ਪਾਪ ਤਜਿ ਭਾਗੋ ॥੨॥
Sangrah(i) karo sadaa simran ko param paap taj(i) bhaago||2||

ਜਾ ਤੇ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਨਹਿ ਭੇਟੈ ਕਾਲ ਜਾਲ ਤੇ ਤਾਗੋ ॥
Jaa te dookh paap nah(i) bhetai kaal jaal te taago||

ਜੌ ਸੁਖ ਚਾਹੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਭਨ ਕੌ ਤੌ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਰਸ ਪਾਗੋ ॥੩॥੩॥
Jau such chaaho sadaa sabhan kau tau har(i) ke raspaago||3||3||



O man, fall on the Feet of the Supreme Being. Why do you remain asleep in the intoxication of varied attachments of Maya? Wake up and look to the Reality. (1. Pause)



You preach others, while you remain ever ignorant like quadruped. What is the use of accumulation of the costly material things? Abandon the way of sinful life. (1)



Accept the Divine Love, consider all works leading you to the darkness. Engage yourself toward observance of the Moral Law (Dharma). Thus accumulate the wealth of the Divine Love, and stay away from sinful life. (2)



Live ever with God, which way make you rise above all sins and pains connected therewith. You will thus break the noose of Death. The Lord God's Name gives peace to all at all times; remain ever absorbed in Him. (3)
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
13
Sat shri akal,:D
addooo2 ji ,
What you are trying to say is that the law of karma is nothing when compared to the will of God. but hows this possible alright for the time being even if i agree to your thoughts can you explain on what accounts are we brought to the next birth is this also decided by the lord's will and if so why?
alright add ji let me consider an example :yes:
suppose i join the Aryan brotherhood and kill half of California's population . ur saying that i will do this with the will of God and that even if IL be sentenced to death IL be free from the bondage of life,the cycle of births in the after life?

wasn't my first post crystal clear about this topic?

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~
 

spnadmin

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Jun 17, 2004
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Sainty ji

Your first post was crystal clear. But the example you give above doesn't quite get to the heart of the issue of the Law of Karma as Guru Nanak explains it -- just in my humble opinion of course.

Consider this story and maybe it will illustrate why I am taking a different perspective.

On seeing the atrocities committed in Saiyidpur, Bhai Mardana questioned Satguru Nanak Sahib Ji how it came to be that alongside the wrong doers in the city, innocents were also resigned to perish in the most awful manner. Satguru Ji asked Bhai Mardana to take rest under the shade of a nearby tree and that his question would be answered when he awoke. During his sleep, a drop of honey fell from the tree onto Bhai Mardana and ants came to feed upon it. In his sleepy stupor, Bhai Mardana slapped at his chest killing most if not all of the ants. When he awoke, Satguru Ji asked him what he had done. He exclaimed that as he slept an ant had bitten him and so he had killed them all. Satguru Ji explained that in this very way, the residents of Saiyidpur were also killed.


Sometimes the things that happen to us are not because of our kaarams. The are the consequences of the deeds of another. We are not morally accountable for the outcome; not did we bring the outcome on ourselves in this life or another. Think of Guru Arjan Dev. Was it because of his kaarams that he was tortured to death? Do you think that someone could be so evil in a past life that he would become our 5th Guru in his time? Or was what happened to him the consequence of the evil kaarams of another person, and other people?

Under the Law of Karma we are not responsible for the cards we are dealt. Under the Law of Karma we are responsible for how we play them. Upon thinking of how Guru Arjan Dev ji went to his death, the meaning of karma in sikhi becomes itself crystal clear.
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
13
Sat shri akal,:D
ultimate post addooo2 ji
Even i have said the same thing the situation we are in is created by Lord and how we react to it is our karma hereby not an action but a reaction and so the only doer is Lord himself.
thank you addoo2 ji for such a post!:yes:

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~
 

spnadmin

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Jun 17, 2004
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Sat shri akal,:D
ultimate post addooo2 ji
Even i have said the same thing the situation we are in is created by Lord and how we react to it is our karma hereby not an action but a reaction and so the only doer is Lord himself.
thank you addoo2 ji for such a post!:yes:

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~

You are welcome sainty ji,

But there is another problem. My understanding is that He is the Creator of Everything. The Law of Karma is within His Hukam. He deals the cards and He gives us Choices.

In the janamsakhi, Mardana goes to sleep. Half awake and half asleep he kills some ants. Half awake and half asleep is a metaphor for ignorance, for remaining in avidya. In avidya atrocities are committed in Saiyidpur. It is in avidya that we choose cruelty. So why do we choose to remain in avidya? Why are we cruel?

There are some questions that still need asking.
 

pk70

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But there is another problem. My understanding is that He is the Creator of Everything. The Law of Karma is within His Hukam. He deals the cards and He gives us Choices.

In the janamsakhi, Mardana goes to sleep. Half awake and half asleep he kills some ants. Half awake and half asleep is a metaphor for ignorance, for remaining in avidya. In avidya atrocities are committed in Saiyidpur. It is in avidya that we choose cruelty. So why do we choose to remain in avidya? Why are we cruel?

There are some questions that still need asking.(quote aad0002 Ji)

Aad Jio,
I have struggled a lot to get answer to this, Gurbani is my source and the answer I got from it, at least has satisfied me. The more Guru Teachings are practically practiced, the more unambiguous concept of His Hukam becomes.

In His creation, there is a brain that carries all kinds of emotions, out of them, some are displayed and some are suppressed.(Why, it has also explanation) They grow as per environments (because it is per His Hukam to be in them) to different levels. Some emotions come as ego forces. It’s the ego that triggers many other emotions like anger, greed and possessiveness and subsequently our reactions. We choose them to prefer as per given Surat because that is the only thing we have in our “choice-kingdom” The given Surat is changed as per environments He puts us in (and it is preordained.). The five primal forces, commonly known as negative forces become positive ones in a person who gets imbued totally with the Lord because the separating power (fives) from Him is negated, all emotions get leveled. One can live right here while being united with the Lord.
Existence in full form of these fives affects the “Surat”(reflected by environments as well),in their choice for “Aviddya” remains dominant. Aviddya is denial of the truth, Here Karma(deeds) become dependent of Aviddya, it elevates the fives that trigger anger, ego, greed and cruelty. It happens due to the surat which doesn’t remain aware of the truth, truth about our being here for limited time, truth of loving the Lord, truth about His prevailing Ordinance, truth about His being permeated all over. HE sets all emotions in the brain. Some time I compare the Surat described by Guru ji as a computer chip, computer is bound to that chip, if chip is changed or modified, actions change. In computer it is changed or modified by the engineer but in humans, it is only changed or modified with His Ordinance like through the True Guru and also through the company of others (environment). The Lord magnifies “the self” within and the Lord reduces it too, all He does through environment (His creation) as He wills. So even choices become His play
ਆਖਣਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਚੁਪੈ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ਜੋਰੁ ਮੰਗਣਿ ਦੇਣਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਜੋਰੁ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ਜੋਰੁ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ
I have no power to speak and no power to remain silent. I have no power to beg and no power to give. I have no strength to live and no strength to die. I have no strength to acquire empire and wealth, which stir up a commotion in the mind.
ਜੋਰੁ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਛੁਟੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੋਇ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕੋਇ ੩੩
I have no power to gain understanding of Divine Knowledge and Lord's meditation. I have no power to find the way to escape from the world. He, in whose hand the power is, exercises and beholds it. O Nanak! By one's own strength, none can be good or bad.
Guru ji again leads us to His infinite Ordinance and advises us to accept it as it comes and start improving ourselves by considering only His Will as the ultimate truth. The riddle is there because we are often distracted by many things and remain unaware of it, and we make our choice also being unaware of the fact that all we do is still fulfilling His Will. Why? Here is the answer
ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਜਿਵ ਹੋਵੈ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਏਹੁ ਵਿਡਾਣੁ
As it pleases Him and as is His order, He makes them walk. He beholds them but they see Him not. This is the greatest wonder.
These are my humble views expressed with the help of Gurbani in context of your question.
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
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Sat shri akal, thy saints of my lord,:D
add ji,::cool:2:
But there is another problem. My understanding is that He is the Creator of Everything. The Law of Karma is within His Hukam. He deals the cards and He gives us Choices.
no doubt he is the creator he has created the law of karma. yes he deals the cards and choices are provided by him alone but at the end it is we who play our chance and with our will.

In the janamsakhi, Mardana goes to sleep. Half awake and half asleep he kills some ants. Half awake and half asleep is a metaphor for ignorance, for remaining in avidya. In avidya atrocities are committed in Saiyidpur. It is in avidya that we choose cruelty.
avidya is of two kind one when we deny the truth and second when we are ignorant about it both of them lead to the same path of destruction.

So why do we choose to remain in avidya? Why are we cruel?
i liked pk70's explanation about the concept of surat as it solves such matters although it is not able to clarify the law of karma.my opinion about this is that getting vidya or being in the state of avidya is in our hands but only if God wills so.we are not always cruel our cruelties are judged on the bases of someones weakness and so the weak people are always harassed.

There are some questions that still need asking.
Some of them doesn't Guru ji answered before we actually thought about them:}{}{}:

i would love to comment on that saiyidpur incident brought to light by you add ji
there was a similar mis-happening in Lahore when mughals had attacked around 1520 and Guru Nanak had written such a beautiful composition it brought tears to my eyes at first :8-:):inca:mughals

in that composition our father is questioning God :}{}{}:
here are some of its stanzas-
Karta tu sabna ka soye je sakta sakte ko mare ta man ros na hoye
khurafan khasmana kiya hindusatn daraya aape karta dosh na laiye jamkar mughal chadaya aite maar paiye kurlande tain ki taras na aaya ........sorry if i missed some line to my knowledge as i remember its complete.
translation--your are the only doer lord how can someone kill others without your will?
You have saved khurasan and terrified India. creator !since you do not take the blame (of punishing evil-doers) on yourself.You have sent mughals and Baber as your regent of death.The people were tortured so ruthlessly that they wailed and cried out to heaven. Did it not awaken any pity for them in you, o ,lord?

and so aaji mardana didn't killed the ants he was just a regent of death for ants. and ants were killed by God's will.


pk70 ji,::cool:2:

I have struggled a lot to get answer to this, Gurbani is my source and the answer I got from it, at least has satisfied me.
is there anything in this world that can satisfy someone? no at least nothing can satisfy the will of a learner to learn .
The more Guru Teachings are practically practiced, the more unambiguous concept of His Hukam becomes.
:thumbup:

In His creation, there is a brain that carries all kinds of emotions, out of them, some are displayed and some are suppressed.(Why, it has also explanation) They grow as per environments (because it is per His Hukam to be in them) to different levels.
:unsure:

Some emotions come as ego forces. It’s the ego that triggers many other emotions like anger, greed and possessiveness and subsequently our reactions.
tell me as per your saying who is the one to provide us ego?

The five primal forces, commonly known as negative forces become positive ones in a person who gets imbued totally with the Lord because the separating power (fives) from Him is negated, all emotions get leveled.
the state of jiwat mukat:yes:


Existence in full form of these fives affects the “Surat”(reflected by environments as well),in their choice for “Aviddya” remains dominant.
it is not in our hands to control the five evils?OMG come on

Aviddya is denial of the truth, Here Karma(deeds) become dependent of Aviddya, it elevates the fives that trigger anger, ego, greed and cruelty.
as i have said earlier avidya is of two types one when we deny the truth knowingly and the other when we are ignorant about it that is we dont know what the truth is. the second point is true but not completely .karma is a reaction to God's will and it is certainly affected by the five evils(given if a person had them).

It happens due to the surat which doesn’t remain aware of the truth, truth about our being here for limited time, truth of loving the Lord, truth about His prevailing Ordinance, truth about His being permeated all over.
most of us are in the first kind of avidya that is we don't accept the truth.


HE sets all emotions in the brain. Some time I compare the Surat described by Guru ji as a computer chip, computer is bound to that chip, if chip is changed or modified, actions change. In computer it is changed or modified by the engineer but in humans, it is only changed or modified with His Ordinance like through the True Guru and also through the company of others (environment). The Lord magnifies “the self” within and the Lord reduces it too, all He does through environment (His creation) as He wills. So even choices become His play
:unsure:first thing mens are not as sensible and as obedient as computers we work on our senses.and second thing to provide choices is his will but to accept them or not is ours.

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~
 

spnadmin

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sainty ji, pk70 ji

Both of your responses deserve in-depth consideration. More than my weak response right now. I will go back and think more carefully about what each of you say above. Just one thought again in the form of questions.

We seem to agree that He gives us choices. Questions. Does he make the choices for us? Or, is it rather that He knows what choices we will make?
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
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Sat shri akal,:D
In my opinion he already knows what choice we are going to make.
he is the all-knowing Lord after all.:yes:details later on.......;)
 

spnadmin

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sainty ji

You sound like me now -- can't talk, have to run, details later!;)

Want to ask the question a better way. He gives us choices. He knows the choices we will make. Does He make the choice for us? in other words, are our decisions determined for us in His Hukam?
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
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London, UK
The will is the driving force to mans actions and thoughts. One must first understand what ‘Will’ is prior to defining ‘Free Will’.

What triggers paths of thought processes, prompts certain patterns. The subconscious contains ingrained data derived from past and inherited experience and the negative or positive reactions programmed to be generated by certain paths of thinking, words, visuals, situations. Example: I say rat, one person will think of a rather nasty rodent, another with an ingrained fear of rodents will literally bristle with fear and anticipation of the appearance of such a vile creature, some may have a pet rat and smile at the thought of their little furry creature. Ditto snakes, I find them awesome magnificent creatures, those living in areas where snakes kill and endanger life will exclaim and be filled with fear of the presence or visual of a snake. Each word triggers a neuron reacting against environment, matter in subconscious and nurturing. Each response is generated by personal experience and reactions are based upon a multiple of affecting factors.

The task of life is to master one’s own will. Free will is not something we demand from governments or those who control society, rather it is a virtue gained by self realisation and understanding of one’s own behavioural patterns. The most contentious topic is morality. What is liberation, emancipation and the freedom to behave freely without hindrance or constraints. The philosopher will argue the highest state of spiritual ascension is to reason governing will, and control and mastery of will thereby.

The modern generation affluent and educated seek to be free of societal traditions and values, to indulge their whims and wiles. The wise will argue in favour of the civilised, that only when man has mind over matter, can he be truly free. They who are spurred to action without consideration for consequence in an irrational and blind pandering of the will cannot be considered free.

The sins anger, gluttony, ambition envy or pride are all derivative of an ill considered force of will. If the glutton is mindful of how much consumption his energy output quotient requires he would not rashly consume any greater than his requirement. Man driven by anger does not heed sense and reason but only the satiation of an emotion with no consideration for the ramifications thereof. Free will is fully covered in the Bani.

Karma is mostly ones personal peace and general disposition. A truly peaceful and honest person self illuminated cannot be ill fated unless he allows an adverse occurrence to taint and rob his peace rendering him a sullen and angry man, whereby all react towards him with trepidation and hesitation. This is personal responsibility. Collective Karma is being part of a society accursed and ill fated and acquiring negativity of that company upon oneself, this is a lesson to maintain good company and counsel at all a times to avoid accruing bad karma by violent and angry reactions of habitual bad behaviour.

Destiny plays a part. Some are eternal souls of the fourth dimension trapped within the three realms, These souls, and I am one, know our end and destiny, our fate as we have lived many times before. Is it self fulfilling prophecy or a cycle of recurring patterns that cannot change because we have not changed our thinking, outlook and opinions haven’t changed. The negative forces become familiar and prejudge our reactions trapping us in a cycle of pain and sufferance by an evident evil through no fault of our own. We have lived upstanding lives and proven in virtue, chastity and fidelity, and this has trapped us as mastheads of an ill gotten pirate ship seeking its salvation through our turning of the grindstone, it is clearly visible to see...

Life Is ...
 

pk70

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is there anything in this world that can satisfy someone? no at least nothing can satisfy the will of a learner to learn (Saint Soldier Ji).[/FONT]
Above my statement was very personal, I have no question about systematic treatment Gurbani provides to its followers, and I am totally satisfied; in case there is some one whose will in pursuit of learning, is in questioning process, I have nothing against it. Hope you will respect personal satisfaction part.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
In His creation, there is a brain that carries all kinds of emotions, out of them, some are displayed and some are suppressed.(Why, it has also explanation) They grow as per environments (because it is per His Hukam to be in them) to different levels(pk70).
clip_image001.gif
(Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
Please discuss the structure of the brain with a Neurologist; he will express it well align to the above idea. Every thing He has boxed in the brain which also falls in the context of [/FONT]Surat[/FONT]. When we live for the society, we suppress our emotions to please it or being afraid of it. Contrary to it, the one who lives for the Lord never does that but expresses as he feels about the truth. We have examples of many enlightened ones who did it without fear. Environment sculptures the growth of the brain in all areas. Even genius remains ignorant if his/her company[/FONT] is [/FONT]of ignorant (exceptions can be there when a genius changes the company instead of becoming part of it) All this falls under His Ordinance as we already accepted Guru’s statement about His Ordinance.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Existence in full form of these fives affects the “Surat”(reflected by environments as well),in their choice for “Aviddya” remains dominant.(pk70)[/FONT]
it is not in our hands to control the five evils?
clip_image002.gif
come on [/FONT]
Here I have not said what you are stating or questioning; I have stated that if these fives remain in full strength, choice of Aviddya remains dominant, what it has to do with the controlling fives?[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Aviddya is denial of the truth, Here Karma(deeds) become dependent of Aviddya, it elevates the fives that trigger anger, ego, greed and cruelty(pk70)[/FONT]
as i have said earlier avidya is of two types one when we deny the truth knowingly and the other when we are ignorant about it that is we dont know what the truth is. the second point is true but not completely .Karma is a reaction to God's will and it is certainly affected by the five evils(given if a person had them).[/FONT]
How you can divide a concept in to two different ones? Karma is not only reaction but actual deed depending upon the given [/FONT]Surat[/FONT], and the given [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] is His creation-Will. They are affected by five ones if HE wills (again it is Him that causes the deeds /actions/reactions etc). [/FONT]
[/FONT]
HE sets all emotions in the brain. Some time I compare the Surat described by Guru ji as a computer chip, computer is bound to that chip, if chip is changed or modified, actions change. In computer it is changed or modified by the engineer but in humans, it is only changed or modified with His Ordinance like through the True Guru and also through the company of others (environment). The Lord magnifies “the self” within and the Lord reduces it too, all He does through environment (His creation) as He wills. So even choices become His play(pk70)
first thing mens are not as sensible and as obedient as computers we work on our senses.and second thing to provide choices is his will but to accept them or not is ours.(Saint Soldier Ji)[/FONT]
[/FONT]
It is sad to notice that you have not understood the example of computer chip as you didn’t understand the delivery of the performance in director’s example in the past. Where did I say humans are like computers, or chip acts completely as [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] does? I compared something that [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] and the chip have. Obviously chip is different than [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] but it has something that triggers actions, same way [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] has something that causes actions/reactions. If the chip is modified, actions change, same way if [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] is modified, actions change. What it has to do with the sensibility? Please take only essence of the example than taking used words as factual comparison.[/FONT]
What you call “senses” Guru ji call it [/FONT]Surat[/FONT], what is the difference? Whatever He does, He does it through given [/FONT]Surat[/FONT]” either by modifying it or keeping it as it is. He preordains the atmosphere(environment) to keep it as it is or to modify it. Why? Guru ji doesn’t ask this question and neither do I have any curiosity to question His Will in this context. You are where you are, there is no power in you to get out of it unless He doesn’t want. As quoted before.[/FONT]
ਜੋਰੁ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ਜੋਰੁ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ [/FONT]
I have no strength to live and no strength to die. I have no strength to acquire empire and wealth, which stir up a commotion in the mind.(note, translator took literal meaning of “shor” actually it means display of ego feeding claims by shouting "power of I”)[/FONT]
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
13
Sat shri akal,:D
pk70 ji,
Being blind is to have a disability of not seeing in realty, while the one who is having eye-sight but closes eyes, is in denial to acknowledge that he/she sees.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

yes,now compare this to God's will and our ignorance. in the above example it is God's will for that person to be blind(agyani) and in the second case it is mans will to be ignorant(agyani).but the net result is that both of them are not able to c(agyani's)
[/FONT]
Given Surat comes with a capability of making choices, Surat is given by the Lord, whatever the choices are made also get credited to Him. Confusion comes only when we look at the canvas partially. Thanks for asking and all I have answered as per my limited [/FONT]Surat[/FONT] given by the Lord.[/FONT]

[/FONT]your concept of surat is admirable and i applaud it but it is not applicable to that extent you think it is specially when it deals with the law of karma or is it that I'm not getting it wait il read your previous posts.:p

[/FONT]
[/FONT]
oh do u mean that a person who believes in the will of God even if he commits crime of the lowest grade waheguru will forgive him?(sainty)[/FONT]
Its answer goes back to Mool Mantra, His being “Nirvair(beyond animosity)” this virtuoso quality of the Lord prevails through His all commands, see Guru’s faith in Him on His being Nirvair when the sinner makes a choice to turn to the Lord.[/FONT]
[/FONT]but when a sinner is imbued in the love of Lord's name he is a sinner any more?

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru Nanak~~


 
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