Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana - A Debate

[Randip Singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

A great example of Pulizer Prize Journalism from Panthic Weekly or not?

Panthic Weekly: Inder Ghagga loses debates to Panthic Singhs in Toronto

According to several eyewitnesses interviewed by Panthic Weekly, Ghagga became so uneasy that he asked for drinking water three times. Witnesses stated that his hands were trembling and he was perspiring heavily throughout the debate. It was clear that the fierce 'debater' Ghagga had lost his bearing.

Who were these eyewitnesses? Dam I should stop drinking water, when I lecture for an hour I need at least two glasses of water? I would be trembling if I knew their were nutcases present who had tried to attack me before present? (actually I wouldn't tremble probably because I am nuttier than the nutcases).

Ghagga lost the entire debate on all subjects and afterwards some neutral Singhs insisted that another debate be set at a public venue. The date was set for October 1, 2006 at 9am, but Ghagga never showed up. Via third parties, and with great difficulty, he was persuaded to debate and finally the debate was set up for about 4 hours later at 1pm.

Who says he lost the deabte? Who were these neutral 3rd parties? I watched the Ghagga debate video and he doesn't seem to have lost his nerve, if anything he's quite defiant?

It is interesting to note that the Panthic Singhs led by Kulbir Singh did not have any prior public debating experience, yet they were successful in defeating someone such as Ghagga who has spent his entire life in such controversies. Instead of debating on the contentious issues, Ghagga kept digressing and changing subjects. This further proved that he could no longer defend himself or his philosophy.

Who says Kulbir Singh was sucessful? Who says he kept digressing? Maybe he was talking about the backround to issues? My experience leads me to believe that most Sikhs (many Panthic ones), are not even aware of the basics of Sikh History.

According to eyewitnesses, having lost twice on all subjects, Ghagga left as a very upset man. He has declined to debate any further. His skills seems more fitted for an arguer than a true debater.

Who are these eyewitnesses that keep appearing? Werer they holding the camera? Who are these mysterious eyewitness people?

Subsequent to this debate, the Panthic Singhs had challenged him for another debate and the challenge was published in the Punjabi Post, a Toronto based newspaper. However, the man who boasted so much on the radio waves that not a single Singh in Toronto can debate him, had now become silent. Publicly it is now clear that these so-called scholars are merely paper tigers.

Maybe he has gone silent because he didn't want to be physically assaulted?

Now lets see the same debate in Sikh Times:

The Sikh Times - News and Analysis - Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

Makes me think.....hmmm?

Panthic Weekly or Sikh Times.....I would rather read the latter.

some more views:

Tuhady Pattar (Your view)

Ok.

Is anyone here actually willing to debate the issues?

The point here in the quotation above is why is there such a disparity between Panthic Weekly and The Sikh Times.

As a neutral I see The Sikh Times coverage far more balanced.

Please lets debate issues in a civilised manner.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Aad002

I did not state anthing incorrect.People who do not know the history of sulhi khan are casting doubts on Gurbani.A sikh calls a spade a spade.

A complete court judgement has been cited here.yet some persons say that it is not authentic.And you say that nobody is supporting kala here.What does this mean?

Hi Inder you posted a Tukh from Bani stating that it was a miracle that had been stated in Bani. Two of us stated that it did not represent a miracle. Thats all. It is not casting doubts on Bani. Emotional comments like that often rouse rabbles and cause violence. So we must be careful to debate in a calm rational manner.

There is only one miracle and that is of finding God within you. Page 543:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik­oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਏਕੁ ਅਚੰਭਉ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਜੋ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਧਰਮ ਨਿਆਏ ਰਾਮ ॥
हरि का एकु अच्मभउ देखिआ मेरे लाल जीउ जो करे सु धरम निआए राम ॥
Har kā ėk acẖambẖa­o ḏėkẖi­ā mėrė lāl jī­o jo karė so ḏẖaram ni­ā­ė rām.
I have seen one miracle of the Lord, O my Dear Beloved - whatever He does is righteous and just.
ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਓਨੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਸਬਾਏ ਰਾਮ ॥
हरि रंगु अखाड़ा पाइओनु मेरे लाल जीउ आवणु जाणु सबाए राम ॥
Har rang akẖāṛā pā­i­on mėrė lāl jī­o āvaṇ jāṇ sabā­ė rām.
The Lord has fashioned this beautiful arena, O my Dear Beloved, where all come and go.
ਆਵਣੁ ਤ ਜਾਣਾ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਕੀਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਮੇਦਨਿ ਸਿਰਜੀਆ ॥
आवणु त जाणा तिनहि कीआ जिनि मेदनि सिरजीआ ॥
Āvaṇ ṯa jāṇā ṯineh kī­ā jin mėḏan sirjī­ā.
The One who fashioned the world causes them to come and go.
ਇਕਨਾ ਮੇਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਹਲਿ ਬੁਲਾਏ ਇਕਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਫਿਰਦਿਆ ॥
इकना मेलि सतिगुरु महलि बुलाए इकि भरमि भूले फिरदिआ ॥
Iknā mėl saṯgur mahal bulā­ė ik bẖaram bẖūlė firḏi­ā.
Some meet the True Guru - the Lord invites them into the Mansion of His Presence; others wander around, deluded by doubt.
ਅੰਤੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਏ ॥
अंतु तेरा तूंहै जाणहि तूं सभ महि रहिआ समाए ॥
Anṯ ṯėrā ṯūʼnhai jāṇeh ṯūʼn sabẖ meh rahi­ā samā­ė.
You alone know Your limits; You are contained in all.
ਸਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਧਰਮ ਨਿਆਏ ॥੧॥
सचु कहै नानकु सुणहु संतहु हरि वरतै धरम निआए ॥१॥
Sacẖ kahai Nānak suṇhu sanṯahu har varṯai ḏẖaram ni­ā­ė. ||1||
Nanak speaks the Truth: listen, Saints - the Lord dispenses even-handed justice. ||1||
ਆਵਹੁ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਸਹੇਲੀਹੋ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਰਾਧੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
आवहु मिलहु सहेलीहो मेरे लाल जीउ हरि हरि नामु अराधे राम ॥
Āvhu milhu sahėlīho mėrė lāl jī­o har har nām arāḏẖė rām.
Come and join me, O my beautiful dear beloveds; let's worship the Name of the Lord, Har, Har.
ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਾਧੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
करि सेवहु पूरा सतिगुरू मेरे लाल जीउ जम का मारगु साधे राम ॥
Kar sėvhu pūrā saṯgurū mėrė lāl jī­o jam kā mārag sāḏẖė rām.
Let's serve the Perfect True Guru, O my dear beloveds, and clear away the Path of Death.
ਮਾਰਗੁ ਬਿਖੜਾ ਸਾਧਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਸੋਭਾ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
मारगु बिखड़ा साधि गुरमुखि हरि दरगह सोभा पाईऐ ॥
Mārag bikẖ­ṛā sāḏẖ gurmukẖ har ḏargeh sobẖā pā­ī­ai.
Having cleared the treacherous path, as Gurmukhs, we shall obtain honor in the Court of the Lord.
ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਬਿਧਾਤੈ ਧੁਰਹੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਰੈਣਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈਐ ॥
जिन कउ बिधातै धुरहु लिखिआ तिन्हा रैणि दिनु लिव लाईऐ ॥
Jin ka­o biḏẖāṯai ḏẖarahu likẖi­ā ṯinĥā raiṇ ḏin liv lā­ī­ai.
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, lovingly focus their consciousness on the Lord, night and day.
ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਛੁਟਾ ਜਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਾਧੇ ॥
हउमै ममता मोहु छुटा जा संगि मिलिआ साधे ॥
Ha­umai mamṯā moh cẖẖutā jā sang mili­ā sāḏẖė.
Self-conceit, egotism and emotional attachment are eradicated when one joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.
ਜਨੁ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਰਾਧੇ ॥੨॥
जनु कहै नानकु मुकतु होआ हरि हरि नामु अराधे ॥२॥
Jan kahai Nānak mukaṯ ho­ā har har nām arāḏẖė. ||2||
Says servant Nanak, one who contemplates the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, is liberated. ||2||
ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਹੋਇ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਜੇਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
कर जोड़िहु संत इकत्र होइ मेरे लाल जीउ अबिनासी पुरखु पूजेहा राम ॥
Kar joṛihu sanṯ ikaṯar ho­ė mėrė lāl jī­o abẖināsī purakẖ pūjėhā rām.
Let's join hands, O Saints; let's come together, O my dear beloveds, and worship the imperishable, Almighty Lord.
ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਖੋਜੀਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਅਰਪੇਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
बहु बिधि पूजा खोजीआ मेरे लाल जीउ इहु मनु तनु सभु अरपेहा राम ॥
Baho biḏẖ pūjā kẖojī­ā mėrė lāl jī­o ih man ṯan sabẖ arpėhā rām.
I sought Him through uncounted forms of adoration, O my dear beloveds; now, I dedicate my entire mind and body to the Lord.
ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕੇਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਪੂਜ ਚੜਾਵਏ ॥
मनु तनु धनु सभु प्रभू केरा किआ को पूज चड़ावए ॥
Man ṯan ḏẖan sabẖ parabẖū kėrā ki­ā ko pūj cẖaṛāva­ė.
The mind, body and all wealth belong to God; so what can anyone offer to Him in worship?
ਜਿਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅੰਕਿ ਸਮਾਵਏ ॥
जिसु होइ क्रिपालु दइआलु सुआमी सो प्रभ अंकि समावए ॥
Jis ho­ė kirpāl ḏa­i­āl su­āmī so parabẖ ank samāv­ė.
He alone merges in the lap of God, unto whom the Merciful Lord Master becomes compassionate.
ਭਾਗੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਹੋਇ ਜਿਸ ਕੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਲਿ ਸਨੇਹਾ ॥
भागु मसतकि होइ जिस कै तिसु गुर नालि सनेहा ॥
Bẖāg masṯak ho­ė jis kai ṯis gur nāl sanėhā.
One who has such pre-ordained destiny written on his forehead, comes to bear love for the Guru.
ਜਨੁ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੂਜੇਹਾ ॥੩॥
जनु कहै नानकु मिलि साधसंगति हरि हरि नामु पूजेहा ॥३॥
Jan kahai Nānak mil sāḏẖsangaṯ har har nām pūjėhā. ||3||
Says servant Nanak, joining the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, let's worship the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||
ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਖੋਜਤ ਹਮ ਫਿਰੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਅੜਾ ਘਰਿ ਆਏ ਰਾਮ ॥
दह दिस खोजत हम फिरे मेरे लाल जीउ हरि पाइअड़ा घरि आए राम ॥
Ḏah ḏis kẖojaṯ ham firė mėrė lāl jī­o har pā­i­aṛā gẖar ā­ė rām.
I wandered around, searching in the ten directions, O my dear beloveds, but I came to find the Lord in the home of my own being.
ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਏ ਰਾਮ ॥
हरि मंदरु हरि जीउ साजिआ मेरे लाल जीउ हरि तिसु महि रहिआ समाए राम ॥
Har manḏar har jī­o sāji­ā mėrė lāl jī­o har ṯis meh rahi­ā samā­ė rām.
The Dear Lord has fashioned the body as the temple of the Lord, O my dear beloveds; the Lord continues to dwell there.
ਸਰਬੇ ਸਮਾਣਾ ਆਪਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇਆ ॥
सरबे समाणा आपि सुआमी गुरमुखि परगटु होइआ ॥
Sarbė samāṇā āp su­āmī gurmukẖ pargat ho­i­ā.
The Lord and Master Himself is pervading everywhere; through the Guru, He is revealed.
ਮਿਟਿਆ ਅਧੇਰਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਾਠਾ ਅਮਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਚੋਇਆ ॥
मिटिआ अधेरा दूखु नाठा अमिउ हरि रसु चोइआ ॥
Miti­ā aḏẖėrā ḏūkẖ nāṯẖā ami­o har ras cẖo­i­ā.
Darkness is dispelled, and pains are removed, when the sublime essence of the Lord's Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.
ਜਹਾ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਭ ਠਾਏ ॥
जहा देखा तहा सुआमी पारब्रहमु सभ ठाए ॥
Jahā ḏėkẖā ṯahā su­āmī pārbarahm sabẖ ṯẖā­ė.
Wherever I look, the Lord and Master is there. The Supreme Lord God is everywhere.
ਜਨੁ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਅੜਾ ਘਰਿ ਆਏ ॥੪॥੧॥
जनु कहै नानकु सतिगुरि मिलाइआ हरि पाइअड़ा घरि आए ॥४॥१॥
Jan kahai Nānak saṯgur milā­i­ā har pā­i­aṛā gẖar ā­ė. ||4||1||
Says servant Nanak, meeting the True Guru, I have found the Lord, within the home of my own being. ||4||1||


No one is doubting the court judgement, but what we are debating is wha he is to allegedly have said. I do, however, find the whole episode a bit fishy. First this fellow is attacked by AKJ, then he is excommunicated under political pressure, then he files a case against someone who accused him of sexual assault and a counter case is filed against him. All this sounds very strange.

 

[Randip Singh]

Issues Raised So Far

1) Sexual Misconduct and Counter claim by GSKA

2) What GSKA actually wrote and was it that bad?

3) GSKA's criticism of Bhai Randhir Singh and AKJ response to GSKA.

4) AKJ sites and Panthic Weekly - reliable sources of information or not?

5) Vashnavite influences of some Sikh groups?

6) Inder Singh Ghagga's debate coverage and subsequent excommunication?

7) Did Guru perform miracles eg bring dead to life?

any others?

 

[Inder singh]

Randip

Do you know the episode of sulhi khan.As you seem not to know that .I post it further to give some idea.

Prithi Chand , in connivance with Sulhi Khan, had hatched a conspiracy to imprison Guru Arjun Sahib Ji. Guru Arjun Dev Ji makes reference of one such attack on him:
Raag Asa Ang 371

At first was mooted sending a communication
Secondly, was given the advice to dispatch two messengers,
The third counsel was some other effort to make.
But discarding al else, Lord! On thee I meditated.
With this resolve I was in supreme bliss, freed from anxiety and in poise rested.
Destroyed were foes and ill-wishers and joy I obtained.
The Holy Preceptor thus has instructed me :
This life and body all is the Lord’s property.
All by thy might alone happens,
Thou my shelter, my tribunal of justice.
Discarding Thee Lord! Where may we go?
None else They equal.

When Sulhi Khan was on the way to Ramdaspur to harm Guru Arjun Sahib Ji , his horse got frightened by the accidental flight of a bird and ran into a live brick kiln. Sulhi Kan fell into the jaws of fire and was reduced to ashes. Guru Arjun Sahib Ji expressed a sense of gratitude to Lord thus:

Raag Bilawal And 825

Lord! From Sulhi grant protection,
Unable to accomplish anything is Sulhi,
An unclean death he has met.
The Lord brandishing the axe cut his head cut off,
And instant dust he became,,
Contemplating evil is he burnt, the Creator to his death has pushed him.

 

[Inder singh]

Randip

Kala afghana did not spare anybody.To say that he attacked only BHai Sahib Randhir singh is not a correct statement.

He attacked Bhai verr singh ji,Bhai Gurdas ji,Guru Gobind singh and his banis.

Did you watch those videos to know his scholarship?If not please view those.

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip

Do you know the episode of sulhi khan.As you seem not to know that .I post it further to give some idea.

Prithi Chand , in connivance with Sulhi Khan, had hatched a conspiracy to imprison Guru Arjun Sahib Ji. Guru Arjun Dev Ji makes reference of one such attack on him:
Raag Asa Ang 371

At first was mooted sending a communication
Secondly, was given the advice to dispatch two messengers,
The third counsel was some other effort to make.
But discarding al else, Lord! On thee I meditated.
With this resolve I was in supreme bliss, freed from anxiety and in poise rested.
Destroyed were foes and ill-wishers and joy I obtained.
The Holy Preceptor thus has instructed me :
This life and body all is the Lord’s property.
All by thy might alone happens,
Thou my shelter, my tribunal of justice.
Discarding Thee Lord! Where may we go?
None else They equal.

When Sulhi Khan was on the way to Ramdaspur to harm Guru Arjun Sahib Ji , his horse got frightened by the accidental flight of a bird and ran into a live brick kiln. Sulhi Kan fell into the jaws of fire and was reduced to ashes. Guru Arjun Sahib Ji expressed a sense of gratitude to Lord thus:

Raag Bilawal And 825

Lord! From Sulhi grant protection,
Unable to accomplish anything is Sulhi,
An unclean death he has met.
The Lord brandishing the axe cut his head cut off,
And instant dust he became,,
Contemplating evil is he burnt, the Creator to his death has pushed him.

What you are stating is that Sulhi Khan got his just deserves. Punished by the hand of God? I fail to see the miracle in this?

SikhSpectrum.com Monthly. The Legacy of Guru Arjun Devji

Randip

Kala afghana did not spare anybody.To say that he attacked only BHai Sahib Randhir singh is not a correct statement.

He attacked Bhai verr singh ji,Bhai Gurdas ji,Guru Gobind singh and his banis.

Did you watch those videos to know his scholarship?If not please view those.

Ok lets debate exactly what he did and did not spare. So far all I can see is a collectiion of various abusive terms used at GSKA rather than debates as to what he actually wrote. Present your case of exactly what he wrote and let us debate it. We cannot go any further by just saying GSKA is a "k*nj*r". This forum is for sane discussion.

 

[Inder singh]

*****USE A CIVIL TONGUE*****

 

[Inder singh]

Randip singh read this to know about sulhi khan instead of giving us irrelevant link.

Philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib: ` - Google Book Search

 

[Inder singh]

​

****deleted****

post salients points instead of masses of text.

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip singh read this to know about sulhi khan instead of giving us irrelevant link.

Philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib: ` - Google Book Search

Please tell me what is irrelevant about this link?

Please state where the miracle has taken place?

Does this incident not state basics of Sikhi, i.e. what goes around comes around?

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

I don't know what you wrote but I am sure it wasn't nice. I am disappointed at the lack of a more mature attituted.

i assure you i did not say a single thing wrong. i do not know why it was moderated. i would love to hear about it from the moderator who did it.

i do not know why they are trying to make me look bad when we're simply having a discussion about things we happen to disagree on.

MODS? any idea WHY just enough of my post was deleted to make me look bad?

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: Allegation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

Ok.

Is anyone here actually willing to debate the issues?

The point here in the quotation above is why is there such a disparity between Panthic Weekly and The Sikh Times.

As a neutral I see The Sikh Times coverage far more balanced.

Please lets debate issues in a civilised manner.

i'm not sure it's possible to discuss anything here, let alone debate it... the moderators seem to delete every other post, making it pretty much unreadable.

unless the mods can come forward and explain their actions (which seem biased towards a few specific individuals), i cannot continue this discussion.

 

[Inder singh]

***PERSONAL COMMENTS DELETED****

 

[Inder singh]

<<<<Please tell me what is irrelevant about this link?

Please state where the miracle has taken place?

Does this incident not state basics of Sikhi, i.e. what goes around comes around?>>

Whew sulhi khan was coming many sikhs advised Guru ji that we should leave or do other things.Guru ji took shelter of God's naam.It is written there.

He was to do many other works for sikhs yet.God took care of Sulhi Khan.What does it sound to you.

You keep on harping on vaishnavite influence.That is complete rubbish arguements for me as a sikh.Can you tell us what those influences are and how they affected Sikhs.

Do you believe in Naam simran? Do you believe apart froma physical body there is subtle body also.

Don't delete this post now as that contains nothing against kala afghana.

 

[Inder singh]

Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

*****PERSONAL COMMENTS DELETED*****

 

[pk70]

SPN Sangat ji, here are questions put by KA, they were copied by aad0002 ji and posted on SPN
I am trying to answer all of them. To me, KA has not very much to question save for howling over insignificant points.


Kala Afghana's (KA) views on different issues (taken from 'Bipran ki Reet to Sach da Marg')

• Bhog & Guru Granth Sahib: Doing bhog of Deg in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is manmat according to KA.

I haven’t understood it.

• Sri Amritsar Ishnan: KA states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit.

The name of the city is Amritsar, so what if the water of the srovar is called amrit. It doesn’t do any miracle. Why to argue about it. What KA is trying to say? It is a meaningless statement.

• Washing our Feet: KA criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib or our Gurduara Sahibs.

What is wrong with that either, it is actually not a ritual, water is there if some one feels to wash feet ok otherwise no body is making is mandatory ritual or forcing you to do that. People in Punjab who wear Chappals, love that. Again it is a pointless point though.

• Amrit Vela: KA states how you can call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so many evil things happen around the world at that time.

KA as he boasts about being a Sikh in real sense( because he thinks others are gone strayed), how can he question Gurbani statement? Very early morning when people get up to be ready for the day, are advised by Guru ji to praise the Creator and have HIS memory in mind so that nothing should influence them but HIM. Amrit word is used to call it pious time. It can change as per people’s situation. What is going on the world has nothing to do with the individual who is getting ready to start his/her day. KA is just splitting hairs, no reasonable point to be discussed here too.

• Bhai Veer Singh Ji: KA criticizes Bhai Veer Singh Ji for making anti-Gurmat statements expresses disappointment about his works.

What was the context?

• Bhai Veer Singh Ji, Baba Sri Chand Ji: KA accuses Bhai Veer Singh Ji of lying about Baba Sri Chand Ji, and refers to such writers as "Sikhi day Vayree" (enemies of the Sikhs).

What did Bhai Veer Singh ji lie?

• Amritsar Sarovar: KA implies that there is no basis behind the belief that partaking ishnan in Amritsar sarovar will wash away one's sins. He states that it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Gurbani verse : "RamDaas Sarova Natai || Sabh Utray Pap Kamatai||

I agree; however, Sikhs who take bath in Srovar do really believe they are going to be liberated. If they do, I wonder!

• Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.

What does matter? This question is entirely historical, if he is historian, he should give evidence. People pay tributes who laid their lives for a noble cause. How can it be a idol worshipping? Why didn’t he ask Indian Government which brings many leaders from the world to Mr.Gandhi”s smadhi to bow there where most probably is nothing save for bricks!

• Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit: KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees" are pure lies.

Here again he has to come with historical evidence to prove that Guru didn’t take amrit from Panj Pyare, it is well known in the available history. I took amrit they didn’t say any of the above statements. If some say, why is he questioning the entire Sikh community?

• Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale: KA states that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos). KA states that even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fullfilled. He questions their sincerity and wonders if they were are all "bhekhee" (charlatans).

Before questioning Sant Bhindrawala’ intentions , he should also answer who did bring Sant ji to the front line against Akali Dal? Answer is” Congress”. When he refused to dance to the tune of Congress, it made him a target. What about Rajeev Gandhi and his Gundas who openly carried out genocide against the Sikhs, they were not fortifying any Gurdawara? To question Sant Bhindrawala, a lot of history needs to be read. KA’s mere statements carry no weight; actually they prove the guy is biased against Sant Bhindrawala.

• Khanday-Batay da Amrit & Sweet Pittasay: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin) since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith.

Can he support his statement with solid historical evidence, if not, how can he even say that. Amrit with patase or without patasse doesn’t make any difference, still it is amrit used for a pious ceremony.

• Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 3 Banees of Dasam Patshah: KA ridicules reference to Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees recited during Amrit-Sanchar.

While preparing amrit, path of bani is done just to create atmosphere for the ceremony, what is wrong with that? What are his suggestions? I want to know if he comes up with better options

• Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 5 Banees: KA states only the Banees in Guru Granth Sahib were part of the Amrit-Sanchar ceremony. To consider that other three (Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees) were read by the Guru Gobind Singh Ji is utterly direspectful to our SatGurus.

He should support it with historical facts.

• Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti: KA ridicules the concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray & the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners)

If some one is questioning ritualism in Sikhism, how come guy criticizes the entire community? He himself took amrit, it makes him anritdhari too. Good or bad people are in every community why only amritdhari are attacked? Tha behaviour says it all.

• Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & Patits: KA states that was responsible for making Sikh children cut their Kes, smoke tobacco, and become Patits. States that for Sikhs, becoming a Singh is a "bharm" (superstition) of the mind. He also states that those who consider Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit as becoming "Guru-waley" (inititation into Sikhism) are mistaken.

Any reasonable person will never make such a statement based on a guess rather than on facts . Avalanche of liberalized media, drug trade and other factors took the youth away from basic principles of Sikhi not the reasons he gives in here.

• Amrit & Naam: KA states that calling Amrit Naam is BrahmanVaad

How? Amrit word is used in a pious context, it is used for HIS Name, Gurbani Simran which is all about Him, and how it can be called Brahmanvaad? When Guru ji used this word for a pious context, why is it wrong if used for a pious ceremony?

• Jao Tao Premo Khellan… & Baba Deep Singh: KA ridicules the use of this tuk in reference to Baba Deep Singh deed of fighting with his sis on his palm.

That Guru Waak is used to show how Baba Deep Singh did what he was taught by Guru ji. I feel it is mere a symbol. That is all. Why should it even bother any one?

• Adultery & Bhai Randhir Singh: KA states that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote that Adultery was allowed in the Rahit.

I am not aware of it.

• Charan-Amrit: KA ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic ritual.

It was used to militarize the Sikhs, there was a ceremony for psychological need just as an oath is taken. There was another revolution against caste system, to declare it madness and disregard it; amrit was given from the same pot to all regardless their castes. I think was/is wonderful. What is wrong with this?

• Panj Piaray & Guru Gobind Singh Ji: He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)

Already I commented on this.

• Panj Piaray & Amritdharis: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never kept them again.

One single example needs not to be generalized . It sounds very immature statement.

• Anand-Karj: He ridicules the Panth Parvan Anand-Karj Ceremony. Lables the Anand Maryada as based on Brahmanic Rituals.

How? What is the best he offers, it was a mere ceremony just against prevailing ones

• Bhai Randhir Singh: Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the Brahmans)

I am not aware of it.

• Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld.

I am not aware of this too.

• Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief.

As stated earlier, it was a pious ceremony, while it takes place, Gurbani chanting creates atmosphere. What does he sugges instead of that? To keep gossiping, slandering, and boasting during that time,will it help better! Obviously guy is just splitting hair with no logic. KA himself went through an oath while taking job in Punjab Police. Why didn’t he dare to refuse it by saying it is just a ritual carrying no meaning? After all by merely reading an oath will not change the mind of the person if he doesn’t believe it. It just surprises me how people just come up with ridiculous questionings.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

MODS? any idea WHY just enough of my post was deleted to make me look bad?

because it's a propaganda forum for only one private viewpoint. We are all here as tools to make it look official and give phony impression of "debate forum."

 

[Inder singh]

1)
One of the reasons, which has appeared again and again, for Kala Afghana's inability to travel to India and appear before Akal Takhat has been his links with Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale.
Here's what Kala Afghana writes about Bhindranwale in the 4th volume of his banned book.

‘’Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth…….. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it………. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos)………Even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fulfilled……All these Sants were ‘’bhekhee’’ (charlatans) and were greedy of publicity and political position’’

(Vol 4. p 158-159)


I wonder why a man who openly criticizes Bhindranwale would be wanted by the Indian intelligence agencies.

2)At page 91 - ''Water in Amritsar tanks is obtained from river through canal.
The water contains all the possible dirt and garbage. When canal water passes
through villages, there it is polluted with the passing of urine and feces into
it, many birds and animals also add filth - how this water in Amrit Sarover can
be taken as Nectar and also in other tanks. How singing and reading of Baani
from Guru Granth can turn into Amrit - Nectar?''

3)Gutrmat parkash is publication of SGPC >here is their full issue dealing with blasphemy of kala
http://www.sgpc.net/gurmat_parkash/index1_sq.asp?table=October_2003

 

[Randip Singh]

<<<<Please tell me what is irrelevant about this link?

Please state where the miracle has taken place?

Does this incident not state basics of Sikhi, i.e. what goes around comes around?>>

Whew sulhi khan was coming many sikhs advised Guru ji that we should leave or do other things.Guru ji took shelter of God's naam.It is written there.

He was to do many other works for sikhs yet.God took care of Sulhi Khan.What does it sound to you.

You keep on harping on vaishnavite influence.That is complete rubbish arguements for me as a sikh.Can you tell us what those influences are and how they affected Sikhs.

Do you believe in Naam simran? Do you believe apart froma physical body there is subtle body also.

Don't delete this post now as that contains nothing against kala afghana.

Rather than a miracle, would you not say it is a basic Sikh tenet of wha you reap is what you sow, i.e. what you store in your Karams will get you eventually?

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Allagation of sexual abuse by S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana Ji.

i assure you i did not say a single thing wrong. i do not know why it was moderated. i would love to hear about it from the moderator who did it.

i do not know why they are trying to make me look bad when we're simply having a discussion about things we happen to disagree on.

MODS? any idea WHY just enough of my post was deleted to make me look bad?

I can assure you that no one is trying to make you look bad. I apologise if you wrote nothing bad. You are a valued and respected member of this discussion board, but I think this KA business has got everyone a little heated.

Best Wishes