I think thats untrue, all the posts I've read so far in this thread have an underlying bias leaning towards Jeeonvala. That being said I do agree with you all about some points of the discussion. If Sukhbir Singh would have refrained from the constant belittling he would have come out on top of this debate according to me. He had a really good grasp on what he was debating. He almost rendered all arguments of Jeeonvala invalid.
Although, there were a few that he skipped over, I feel that they were far less than what Jeeonvala. Jeeonvala basically presented an argument then listened to Sukhbir Singhs counterargument and since he had no response to it, he just moved on to his next argument. Not to agree with Sukhbir Singh on the caliber of Jeeonvala's scholarly abilities but in my eyes if you see someone doing that in a debate it just means that there arguments are not carefully thought out and are fairly baseless.
Another point that was brought up, which I agree with. I think it was unfair and biased to have 2 against 1 in the debate. I'm not sure if that was on purpose or if Jeeonvala's partner never showed up. In any case, I thought Sr. Pannu being a moderator should have taken out that bias.
I thought this was a much needed discussion as most of us or at least I do not have the knowledge to refute anyone's claim for or against Dasam Granth. Yes, I'm one of those blind followers because I have personally experienced some of the goodness of Dasam baani.
Before I took Amrit or well as Mr. Jeeonvala was saying apparently we can't call it Amrit as there is no mention of it anywhere as being called that, so I guess I'll call it "Khandey dee Pahul", I was not exactly the model Sikh. Although, I had always been told that baani could change a mans life and it was the 'right' thing to do. I was going through a difficult in my life so I thought I'd give it a try. I was 17 yrs old at this point and I only 3 banian "kanth" at this point, Japji Sahib, Chaupai Sahib, Rehraas Sahib. So I decided to start doing some baani throughout to see where it takes me. I did Japji Sahib in the morning as I had always done. Then I would Chaupai Sahibs throughout the day. I started with one, and in a week or two I felt hungry for more. I got up to ten a day and it felt amazing. I felt the urge to meet Guru Sahib, I started going to amritvela simran at a local Gurdwara and felt at peace. At 18 y.o. I took "Khandey dee Pahul". So, for me as much Dasam Baani as I have read, which is not much, has helped me.
For the whole discussion about the word "fakai", I think we're taking it too far. The point of Sukhbir Singh to bring that up was to show Jeeonvala (although it didn't work very well) that you cannot apply that kind of logic to baani, because baani is free of that, its "suatantar" = sovereign.
And the audio disturbances, that is just how Sur sagar transmission is lol...there is no panthic.org "controversy" behind this. Its just how there satellite transmission goes, it cuts out then comes back. I'm sure the other side recorded the debate as well, they wouldn't go without it and they would be quick to point if there was anything like that.
For the "kaal" discussion, the way I look at it is that, for example when we were kids I don't know if you guys. When I learnt that there was no end to numbers and it was called "infinity", it was pretty amazing. As kids sometimes we would try to say numbers higher than what another kid has said, and some of us would just say "INFINITYYY!!" and then the game was over because no matter what the other said, infinity was all encompassing. Now there is a point to this pointless story, haha. Now if we consider God, "Akaal" (timeless, limitless, free of death), then wouldn't that include all limits. Just like infinity encompasses all the finite things as well as the infinite. I think "Akaal" encompasses all that is. Hence, "Kaal" = (time, death) would be included. I'm no scholar but that's how I think about it.
For the last post by
kee_jaana_mein_kaun, the way Sukhbir Singh would interpret Sant Jees speech in that excerpt you posted is different than what you would. As, for Sukhbir Singh, Jeeonvala is a "Panth Dokhi" because he is spewing venom about Dasam Baani, as we all agreed "****** Kavita", not the greatest of words to use. So for him, he is not going to respond by putting his other cheek forward. Its just a matter of "anakh" (pride), the good kind, the kind for your guru. BUT YES, I do agree that the whole belittling was pointless and I lost respect for Sukhbir Singh when he did that.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought I should.
Vaheguroo jee ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fathe
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