Gurus Guru Nanak In Uganda, Africa

[Tejwant Singh]

Arshi ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:

Agreed. I have myself observed on several occasions that they are not always adequate but they are widely used and sometimes help convey the basic message to lay persons which may not be entirely satisfactory to intellectuals like yourself.

Pardon my ignorance, if the message is distorted because of the incorrect translation then how can it help convey the basic message? Can you please shed some light on this?

I am not any intellectual nor do I intend or pretend to be. I am just a Sikh, a learner, a student, a seeker and when the message is distorted, it is my duty to say that out and loud.

However, we must give Sant Singh ji some credit for the great effort he has put into the works and is of immense help to beginners.

I agree with you. We should give credit to all who have given their best in this valiant effort but also should not hesitate to point out when they are misleading with their literal translations which could be unintentional but the consequences are dire because people get the wrong message which does not do any justice to the true message of our Gurus.

I have received you PM. Thanks for that and I requested you that this interaction should be where it belongs, that is in the forum, not in private. I hope you will agree with me on that.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

IN Gurbani and in Gurmatt...it is amply clear that the "SANT" is a word interchangeable with GURU/SAADH/SATGURU....and is mostly meant for either the Ten Gurus or The Creator Waheguru. Guru Arjun ji uses the word SANT and GURU in reference to Guru Ramdass Ji.."BHAAG HOA GUR-SANT milayah...this one TUK alone should give us the most clear signal as to what a SANT has to be...the EQUAL of GURU RAMDASS JI !! Why does Guru Ji use the TWO words as ONE...to dispell doubts later becasue these words are used in Gurbani frequently.
2. Second Marker/Warning sign for us to stop indiscrimiante use of these words for ORDINARY MORTALS..are the Tuks about...."Rahio SANT me toll..SAADH BAHUTEREH DITTHHEY !! By Bhagat Kabir Ji...and the Absolutley high standards set for "SANT" as is described in Gurbani at many places. NO "MORTAL" can pass this TEST...and by chance IF there is ONE in a MILLION as Bhagat Kabir Ji ahs already told us..then that "sant" will be a HIDDEN ONE..and not parading around the world in Jathas and Limousines with large groups fo dholki cheenehs banging and people matha teking to him and giving gifts. SUCH can ONLY be FRAUDS..the SSADHS that..Bhauhtereh ditthey !! A highly illuminated soul such as Bhagat Kabir Ji the Shiromani SANT/BHAGAT with such a huge amount of GURBANI in SGGS..is declaring so openly that HE FAILED TO SEE a SINGLE SANT and only saw hordes of SAADHS/THUGGHS ..IH Sant na akheyean..benaras ke THUGGH !! Now our "standards" have fallen so LOW..that we not only have HORDES of....Sants..and Baba Jis and Maharajs..we have GURUS..and SATGURUS !!!..I ma just waiting for the Day when a "WAHEGURU JI" also makes His appearance !! I am SURE that UNLIKE Bhagat Kabir Ji..we will be instantly able to recognise this "Waheguru" as easily as we have seen all those hundred thousand SANTS !!

Here is an article form SikhChic..giving a comparative study of the word "sant" and "saint" as is used in English....You will NOTICE that among the worlds religions...only "Catholics" have saints....Muslims, christians, buddhists etc have no such persons. Even the Catholics have no LIVING SAINTS...unlike us...

READ ON:

sikhchic.com

by MANJYOT KAUR & I.J. SINGH

"When the saints go marching in ..." says a popular Christian hymn,
most often heard nowadays as a quintessential Dixieland jazz tune.

But how does one define a saint? What makes a saint? And why be one
even if you can?

We know that Roman Catholics have a finely honed, infinitely nuanced
mechanism for making one - the long, drawn-out process of
canonization, as it is called. It has been used only since the 10th
century; for hundreds of years prior, starting with the first martyrs
of the early Church, saints were chosen by public acclaim.

The rules of the Vatican, which underwent sweeping changes in 1983 by
Pope John Paul II, require that a candidate has to be dead at least
five years before the process is initiated and there are a minimum of
two credible, verifiable miracles (one for beatification and one for
canonization) attributed to the person. (However, in the case of a
martyr, a miracle is not required for beatification.) And there is
the inexhaustible amount of paperwork on the details of the person's life.

Sometimes, the progression can be accelerated. For instance, Mother
Teresa died in 1997; the Pope allowed the process to start early. She
was beatified in 2003; canonization to sainthood awaits the
confirmation of the second miracle.

Our purpose today is not to dissect the Roman Catholic tradition, but
to let this explanation of it lead us into a consideration of the
idea in Sikh doctrine, teaching and practice.

Clearly the English word "saint" and the Punjabi appellation "sant"
are more than kissing cousins. Their linguistic roots may not be
entirely identical, however.

"Saint" is derived from the Latin sanctus (holy, consecrated) and
sancire (to consecrate). Originally an adjective prefixed to the name
of a canonized person, by 1300 or thereabouts, it came to be regarded
as a noun.

"Sant" may be a modified form of sat which can simply mean "true,"
but can also be translated as "lasting," "real," and "venerable." Sat
- or satya - has commonly been used since Vedic times to represent
the Ever-existent Unchanging Reality, or the Self-existent Universal
Spirit, that is, Brahma or God. When parsing roots of words, keep in
mind that Sanskrit may be the root of the linguistic tree that gave
us the Romance languages, which sprang from Latin.

The term sant itself came into vogue later, occurring in the ancient
Pali literature of Buddhism in the sense of "tranquil," "true" or
"wise." From Pali, it resurfaced centuries later when the Bhakti
movement, with its distinct Sant tradition, arose. The Sant-Bhaktas
were opposed to Brahmanical ritualism, idol-worship and casteism.
They valued a "love relationship" between an individual and the
Unborn, Formless, Nirguna Divine entity. Through the Bhakti movement,
the term passed into the Sikh tradition.

Unlike the English term, which has a formal connotation in a Western
religious framework, "sant" is not always used in a formal way, but
in a more subjective sense. To the average person today, it might
convey the idea of a person possessing immense sagacity and
judiciousness, with a profound understanding of Dharam.

Full article:
http://www.sikhchic.com/<wbr>article-detail.php?id=1368

Gyani ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for posting this interesting article which proves the point how literal translations can be misleading.

As, I understand Gurbani, words like Sant, Brahamgyani and other words like this of praise that show qualities of a person are used as adjectives, not as nouns or titles. Adjectives require continuous actions from those people, otherwise that quality ceases to exist.

In other words, a spring of water remains a spring provided it keeps on sprouting water. The moment it ceases, it becomes nothing but one more hole in the ground.

As you know very well, our Gurus did not give themselves any titles. Just numbers. We, the followers address them as Gurus. So, we should try to grasp the message given by our Gurus keeping this in mind, which is vital.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Admin]

Well their leader was originally a boozer (Puran Singh Dhanjal). Apprently when he drank he would always eat meat.

Apparently one day, he had a spiritual moment (probably about the time when livers normally pack up), and he gave up booze. He associated meat with booze too.

After that he set up an almost Bramanical version of Sikhism. Due to the influence of Namdhari's, they began to wear white. They also associated that with purity, and abandoned the Blue and Orange associated with teh Jhatka eating Khalsa.

This sect gathered more and more power and influence in Kenya. They started to make claims that where their leader (PS Dhanjal) had seen "the light", Gur Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh had been there.

These guys now have millions of pounds worth of assets, all controlled by their Sant. They have abandoned the democratic principles of the Khalsa, in favour of an autocracy. They are very discriminatory toward Sehajdhari Sikhs.

Randip ji

You comments are quite damaging/harsh towards Puran Singh Ji Dhanjal. It would be prudent to post some proof or an online reference to support your comments.

Thank you, This is important.

Warm regards

Aman Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Randip Ji, Gurfateh.

I think people change...and we should give them the benefit of the doubt (or keep the past where it belongs..IF a change for the better has taken place ).As a matter of interest the present Guru of the Radha Soamis was a GHONA MONA living in Australia..on becoming a GURU he donned the white dastaar and grew his beard long in keeping with the "guru" image !! Now on the surface that looks liek a change for the "better"...but for me personally its a "character role"...a change in appearance to suit the new role...some evidence has to be forthcoming if a genuine change has taken place...or NOT ??

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree with you. Life gives us the opportunity to change and a Sikh, as the name itself indicates has more chances to change than anyone else because of the tools given to us in the SGGS, our only Guru which challenges us to become better on each time.

I used to be a boozer too till 1988 and not ashamed to admit it either. It is commendable if Puran Singh ji left his bad habits and had the total metamorphosis within which helped him change his life and of many others. The proof is in the organisation which seems very big.

I think Arshi ji can help me understand this group a bit more as he is familiar with them and according to him, his words,"Although I am not a member of GNNSJ I do know many, including several members who many moons ago regarded me as a role model in a minor way, who are regular visitors to the Soho Road Gurdwara in Birmingham."

Arshi ji,

1.Are people of this Jatha vegetarians and always been like that?

2.Did they always wear white or had different colours before? And if they did then any idea why changed into all white?

3. What is the women's role in the Jatha?

The reason I am asking this is because I did not see any women in the pictures from Israel. Secondly I did see some of them at the funeral of Pope John Paul II and there were no women along with them either.

What is their main goal and how do they realise that?

I hope you are able to respond to my above queries and please do not hesitate to add anything else that you may deem important about this Jatha.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[arshi]

<FONT face=Verdana><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Tejwant Singh ji<?"urn:

<o> </o>
Gurfateh
<o> </o>
Good questions. However, in answering them I have to very careful that I do not misquote anything or say something which may not be totally accurate. Therefore, I will limit my remarks to what I can say with confidence. On this instance I will keep my comments brief due to time pressure but will post more detail when time permits.

1. Are people of this Jatha vegetarians and always been like that?



Growing up in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Kenya</st1:country-region> in the 1950s and 1960s (I spent the first years of my life, the 1940s, in <st1lace w:st="on">Punjab) I always assumed that amritdhari Sikhs are not supposed to eat non-veg food. Anyone who aspired to take Pahul gave up meat immediately upon being initiated. This was the common belief amongst the community I grew up in, i.e. such matters were taken for granted. However, contemporary thinking has brought the controversy into the open. My aim, here, is not to engage in this controversy but to answer your question, in that the Jatha follows the same concept when an individual is initiated into the Khalsa order – at least that is my understanding. However, the Gurdwara is open to all and sundry and embraces all notwithstanding their life styles. Sikhs from all walks of life visit the Gurdwara for the blessing of SGGS almost always in Parkash in the Main Darbar Sahib (often referred to as the main hall). No one is discriminated against deliberately.

Nothing can be further from the truth regarding the alleged mistreatment of sehajdhari Sikhs. Bhai Mohinder Singh ji (commonly known as bhai sahib) donated £2,500 towards the Sikh causes close to the heart of actor Mangal Dhillon (a sehajdhari Sikh) – see his site:

http://www.sikhfilms.com/sf/httpdocs/promoters.htm

2. Did they always wear white or had different colours before? And if they did then any idea why changed into all white?


The sewadars at the Gurdwara are no different from you or me and come from the normal working community in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>. Amongst them you will see professionals, business men and women, office workers, skilled workers and others who conduct their lives like anyone else wearing ordinary clothes in various colours. The white dress you mention is akin to the dress code used in the mainstream Gurdwaras including Darbar Sahib Amritsar. This is worn generally by Pathis, Ragis and sewadars serving in the Darbar Sahib. The sewadars serving in the kitchen and other areas wear ordinary clothes (various colours). My wife’s younger sister, a widow, visits the SGNNS Gurdwara regularly and serves in the preparation of langar. She hasnothing but praise for the organisation,particularly in the way the community helps the downtrodden, destitute and the needy. She is often joined by her other younger sister, a PA to a secondary school head. She is suffering from a serious illness and finds a lot of solace and comfort from the rendering of Gurbani and support from the Saadh Sangat. This is the essence of Real Sikhi, in my opinion. This reminds me of a poem:


Nanak Guru daa ghar hai dukhiaan laiee aashiaanaa;
mehraan muhabbtaan daa bhariaa hoyeaa khazzana.


Guru Nanak’s abode (Gurdwara) is a sanctuary for the suffering and the destitute. It overflows with the treasure of love, affection and Guru’s Blessings.


During Amrit Pahul initiations the Five Pyaras wear the traditional Blue and kesri garb – I have actually seen photographs of Baba Ji in these colours and it must be noted that he often, in private life, wore ordinary suits (coat and trousers – I personally saw him. several times, dressed like that - Bhai Mohinder Singh ji likewise). Bhai Mohinder singh ji, a qualified engineer, and his wife run a small business for their livelihood and donate generously to worthwhile causes. His commitment to the Sikh community is exemplary and commendable in the way he participates personally, using his own funds, in the joys and sorrows of sangat. I have actually witnessed this.


All the sewadars are Nishkaam Sevaks (service without fee). There are no paid officials, Granthis, Gyanis, or Ragis. To the contrary most contribute towards funds for its many charitable causes.


3. What is the women's role in the Jatha?

I know there is often too much to read on the internet and SPN is no exception in the wonderful articles it publishes. Because of the length of some of the articles it is easy to miss out some detail. If you revisit the article you will see there were ladies in the group that visited <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region>. I do not recall seeing the Jatha at the funeral of Pope John Paul II.


3. What is their main goal and how do they realise that?

Their goal is no different from other mainstream Sikh organisations and they firmly believe in the supremacy of SGGS over any other scripture- SGGS is the Living Eternal Guru for them just as it is for you and me. They not only believe but practice the three pillars of Sikhi – kirat karni, Naam japna and wand shakna (honest labour, meditation and sharing of rewards and knowledge). I often hear from my sister-in-law that Bhai Sahib (as he is affectionately known) has a passion for putting Sikhi on the world stage as a way of life for the entire world – a univerasal faith – and spread the everlasting philosophical message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

It is possible that I may not agree with everything they do but this is true of any organization, however, good, and that does not automatically render an organisation into a cult or a sect. I would certainly not call them a sect. The reverence they give to Guru Granth Sahib is the highest I have ever seen and they adhere only to shabad Gurbani in their congregations – Katchi Bani is strictly discouraged.


I hope the above helps but I do intend to post more when time permits. All the comments are made in good faith and are not intended to induce any argument or prolonged debate as I do not represent the organisation – mine is an entirely impartial and objective take on the Soho Road Sikh Gurdwara (GNNSJ as it is known) and its Sangat.

Sincere apologies in advance for any inaccuracies in the above statements


Humbly


Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip ji<?"urn:fficeffice" />

You comments are quite damaging/harsh towards Puran Singh Ji Dhanjal. It would be prudent to post some proof or an online reference to support your comments.

Thank you, This is important.

Warm regards

Aman Singh

<o> </o>
Aman Singh ji, ofcourse there won’t be articles about Puran Singh Dhanjal about his drinking. This is what I have been told by people who were there at the initial conception of this pseudo-ramgharia/namdhari Sikh cult.
<o> </o>
As for mistreatment of Sehajdhari’s, why are Sehajdhari’s forbidden from doing Sewa at <?xml::ffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on">Soho road?
<o> </o>
They have no pictures of Guru’s at the <st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Temple (which I agree with), yet they have a picture of Puran Singh Dhanjal, why?
<o> </o>
Why is one man in charge of finances’ at the <st1lace w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Temple?
<o> </o>
I could ask many many more question but I won’t.
<o> </o>
It’s true the Niskam-vites do not believe in aspects of the SRM, especially elements such as Kuttha meat and follow an almost Vashnavite stance on this. This is due to the fact, the massive Ramgarhia community in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Uganda</st1:country-region> and <st1lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Kenya</st1:country-region> was influenced heavily by Namdhari’s (who is essence are Vashnavites).
<o> </o>
I’m sorry to upset people, and quite frankly being called a Nindak by these East African Sikhs is nothing short of what I expected. They do the same thing to people who do not conform to THEIR idea of Sikhism.
<o> </o>
They are a waste of time and a waste of space. No better than the Sant Matt groups in <st1lace w:st="on">Punjab like Radhaoswami’s.
<o> </o>
In the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region> we have a hard time keeping youth on the Sikh path, and extreme groups do not help matters.
<o> </o>
I apologise for the offence, but there you have it.
<o> </o>
Also feel free to remove my comments.

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip Ji, Gurfateh.

I think people change...and we should give them the benefit of the doubt (or keep the past where it belongs..IF a change for the better has taken place ).As a matter of interest the present Guru of the Radha Soamis was a GHONA MONA living in Australia..on becoming a GURU he donned the white dastaar and grew his beard long in keeping with the "guru" image !! Now on the surface that looks liek a change for the "better"...but for me personally its a "character role"...a change in appearance to suit the new role...some evidence has to be forthcoming if a genuine change has taken place...or NOT ??

True Gyani ji, but my entire family and many more people I know refuse to enter that Temple because of their high and mighty attitude.

The amount of Hankaar eminating from that place is overwhelming.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your detailed response. As forums are meant to be for interactions, they can not be treated as mere monologuerums (my word) . What I mean by that is, one who writes anything in public should understand that the questions will be asked and they in no means have the intentions of creating arguments but to clarify what has been said and the writer should be willing and ready for that.

Having said that, I have some questions for my own understanding.

My questions:

1. Are people of this Jatha vegetarians and always been like that?

Your response:

My aim, here, is not to engage in this controversy but to answer your question, in that the Jatha follows the same concept when an individual is initiated into the Khalsa order – at least that is my understanding. However, the Gurdwara is open to all and sundry and embraces all notwithstanding their life styles

What does that mean? According to SRM, any Amrtidhari Sikh can eat meat as long as it is Jhatka. I myself eat meat. I know many people who have take Pahul at Amritsar, the sanctum sanctorum of Sikhi and have been told that it is OK to eat Jatka.

What do you really mean by"the Jatha follows the same concept when an individual is initiated into the Khalsa order"?
Do they follow the SRM or not?
3. What is the women's role in the Jatha?

I know there is often too much to read on the internet and SPN is no exception in the wonderful articles it publishes. Because of the length of some of the articles it is easy to miss out some detail. If you revisit the article you will see there were ladies in the group that visited <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region>. I do not recall seeing the Jatha at the funeral of Pope John Paul II.

Your response still does not give the answer to my original question.

What is the women's role in the hierarchy of the Jatha as you said they do everything according to the teachings of SGGS, our only Guru?

It is possible that I may not agree with everything they do but this is true of any organization

What exactly are the things you may disagree with them?

Thanks for educating me.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Randip Singh]

Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your detailed response. As forums are meant to be for interactions, they can not be treated as mere monologuerums (my word) . What I mean by that is, one who writes anything in public should understand that the questions will be asked and they in no means have the intentions of creating arguments but to clarify what has been said and the writer should be willing and ready for that.

Having said that, I have some questions for my own understanding.

My questions:

1. Are people of this Jatha vegetarians and always been like that?
<? />
Your response:
What does that mean? According to SRM, any Amrtidhari Sikh can eat meat as long as it is Jhatka. I myself eat meat. I know many people who have take Pahul at Amritsar, the sanctum sanctorum of Sikhi and have been told that it is OK to eat Jatka.

What do you really mean by"the Jatha follows the same concept when an individual is initiated into the Khalsa order"?
Do they follow the SRM or not?
3. What is the women's role in the Jatha?

Your response still does not give the answer to my original question.

What is the women's role in the hierarchy of the Jatha as you said they do everything according to the teachings of SGGS, our only Guru?



What exactly are the things you may disagree with them?

Thanks for educating me.

Tejwant Singh

My dearest Tejwant ji.

Jathas/Sects/Cults do not get membership from meat eaters. They swell their numbers by competing to be more religious than the other.

Of the most fanatically religious groups you will find they will be Vashnavites. That is where the money is and that is why these groups will compromise Sikhi in order to make their numbers swell.

 

[Randip Singh]

Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your detailed response. As forums are meant to be for interactions, they can not be treated as mere monologuerums (my word) . What I mean by that is, one who writes anything in public should understand that the questions will be asked and they in no means have the intentions of creating arguments but to clarify what has been said and the writer should be willing and ready for that.

Having said that, I have some questions for my own understanding.

My questions:

1. Are people of this Jatha vegetarians and always been like that?
<? />
Your response:
What does that mean? According to SRM, any Amrtidhari Sikh can eat meat as long as it is Jhatka. I myself eat meat. I know many people who have take Pahul at Amritsar, the sanctum sanctorum of Sikhi and have been told that it is OK to eat Jatka.

What do you really mean by"the Jatha follows the same concept when an individual is initiated into the Khalsa order"?
Do they follow the SRM or not?
3. What is the women's role in the Jatha?

Your response still does not give the answer to my original question.

What is the women's role in the hierarchy of the Jatha as you said they do everything according to the teachings of SGGS, our only Guru?



What exactly are the things you may disagree with them?

Thanks for educating me.

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant ji,

Vashnavites have the money and the power. It makes no sense to follow Sikh values when you can attract hordes of Vashnavites with money power and influence.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

:veryhappymunda1::happysingh:

 

[Randip Singh]

Coming back to the original thread, I would be really interested in knowing more about this 'research' about Guru Nanak coming to Uganda.

Who actually conducted the research?
Is it available to read?
Were the interviews with the local community recorded?
Also why, the local community are unaware of Sikh community, when there has been a strong Sikh community in Kenya?

If Guru Nanak did go to Uganda, this would change history as we know it, I remember large posters of Guru Nanaks travels being distributed, and I find these an inspiration, to think how, Guru Nanak travelled, weathering extreme weather conditions, no shelter for miles and food. Just imagine and compare our lives, how often do we actually walk?? How often do we reach out to people in different communities and cultures.

With reference to Bhai Shab, I have never met him, but I know that he is supportive to women, and actively supports womens rights, he guides and encourages people. I have never heard anyone say anything negative about him from people who know him, he commands respect in the community. He is a social entrepreneur, setting up gym in the Gurdwara and a nursery opposite it. Having said that I do not think women are allowed to perform kirtan at the Gurdwara??? except by special request for e.g funerals...

I would advocate all Gurdwaras to have accounts publically available on notice boards, so the sangat knows who and what activities the Gurdwara supports and also to reduce and eliminate negative rumors.

Gumit Kaur ji,

Sikhs have been in East Africa for over 100 years.

Is it not even the the slight bit possible some Sikhs may have had a settlement there when working on the railways?

 

[arshi]

<FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=#001f4b>Tejwant Singh ji wrote:fficeffice" /><?"urn:

<st1lace w:st="on">Uganda</st1:country-region>. However, the thread was suddenly steered into ‘GNNSJ bashing’. I had no desire to get involved at that stage; but an unprovoked attack on Baba Puran Singh ji was difficult to ignore and digest. Please do follow the thread from the beginning.

Criticising an organization is one thing but the damaging and harsh remarks directed at Baba Puran Singh ji were not acceptable. The great man departed many years ago and is not here to defend himself. Such unkind remarks were quite rightly picked up by Aman Singh ji asking for an explanation from the author. It is disappointing to note that many, including yourself, did not condemn such outburst until after Aman Singh ji’s post.

As far as GNNSJ is concerned, it is an organisation and no organasation, I admit, is beyond criticism or accountability. I do not represent the organization but it has grown in popularity because of the good work it does. Soul Jyot ji kindly provided you with the organisation’s website. I think it would be much more effective if you were to write to them directly with your questions and get it, as they say, from the ‘horse’s mouth’. I have already written what I could say with confidence and would not comment on the basis of hearsay. Any further information I provide would be second-hand as I do not represent the Gurdwara, nor am I privy to their internal administration policies. My main concern was the wrong impression given of Baba Puran Singh ji who was truly a great soul. I do intend to take any opportunity that comes along to learn more about the good work (in my opinion) of GNNSJ and hope to write articles on several issues that interest me – some of them controversial - e.g. the real meaning of the term ‘kutha’ and the concept of jhatka – I do have my own views on these but this not an appropriate thread to debate these – we have already digressed a lot. I will do this in my own time and in a way that I feel comfortable with, without any personal bias and without offending anyone my own way – I hope you will understand this.

As far as Bhai Mohinder Singh ji (Bhai Sahib as he is known) I have seen him several times but only spoken to him, briefly, two or three times. Bhai Sahib is the humble person one may ever come across and receives a lot of respect from all factions of the Sikh Panth in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>. I also had an opportunity to talk to his wife at my sister-in-law’s place and she is an enlightened, educated and extremely intelligent lady and very supportive of women, as is Bhai Sahib himself. I have had the privilege to speak on the GNNSJ stages on private functions including performing kirtan couple of times. On every occasion I was treated with utmost respect and courtesy.

The sewadars are very conscious that the respect of Guru Granth Sahib ji maintained at all times. Usually after the conclusion of private functions, sangat tends to linger on in the Darbar Sahib and gossip and cause beadbi. The sewadars are quite adamant that the sanctity of SGGS is upheld and on occasions may appear to be little high handed but that is not without justification because when it comes to the respect of SGGS, our only Guru, there must be no compromises.

Warm regards

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

 

[Randip Singh]

Tejwant ji

Gurfateh

Many apologies for the belated response due to preoccupation of work and travel - added to this is the problem (with fonts and loss of data on transmission) I have experienced recently in posting on SPN. Narayanjot ji told me earlier that there were a few server hiccups.

I initially posted on this thread on the request of Gyani Jarnail Singh ji with reference to Guru Nanak’s possible visit to ffice:smarttags[/IMG]<st1lace w:st="on">Uganda. However, the thread was suddenly steered into ‘GNNSJ bashing’. I had no desire to get involved at that stage; but an unprovoked attack on Baba Puran Singh ji was difficult to ignore and digest. Please do follow the thread from the beginning.

Criticising an organization is one thing but the damaging and harsh remarks directed at Baba Puran Singh ji were not acceptable. The great man departed many years ago and is not here to defend himself. Such unkind remarks were quite rightly picked up by Aman Singh ji asking for an explanation from the author. It is disappointing to note that many, including yourself, did not condemn such outburst until after Aman Singh ji’s post.

As far as GNNSJ is concerned, it is an organisation and no organasation, I admit, is beyond criticism or accountability. I do not represent the organization but it has grown in popularity because of the good work it does. Soul Jyot ji kindly provided you with the organisation’s website. I think it would be much more effective if you were to write to them directly with your questions and get it, as they say, from the ‘horse’s mouth’. I have already written what I could say with confidence and would not comment on the basis of hearsay. Any further information I provide would be second-hand as I do not represent the Gurdwara, nor am I privy to their internal administration policies. My main concern was the wrong impression given of Baba Puran Singh ji who was truly a great soul. I do intend to take any opportunity that comes along to learn more about the good work (in my opinion) of GNNSJ and hope to write articles on several issues that interest me – some of them controversial - e.g. the real meaning of the term ‘kutha’ and the concept of jhatka – I do have my own views on these but this not an appropriate thread to debate these – we have already digressed a lot. I will do this in my own time and in a way that I feel comfortable with, without any personal bias and without offending anyone my own way – I hope you will understand this.

As far as Bhai Mohinder Singh ji (Bhai Sahib as he is known) I have seen him several times but only spoken to him, briefly, two or three times. Bhai Sahib is the humble person one may ever come across and receives a lot of respect from all factions of the Sikh Panth in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>. I also had an opportunity to talk to his wife at my sister-in-law’s place and she is an enlightened, educated and extremely intelligent lady and very supportive of women, as is Bhai Sahib himself. I have had the privilege to speak on the GNNSJ stages on private functions including performing kirtan couple of times. On every occasion I was treated with utmost respect and courtesy.

The sewadars are very conscious that the respect of Guru Granth Sahib ji maintained at all times. Usually after the conclusion of private functions, sangat tends to linger on in the Darbar Sahib and gossip and cause beadbi. The sewadars are quite adamant that the sanctity of SGGS is upheld and on occasions may appear to be little high handed but that is not without justification because when it comes to the respect of SGGS, our only Guru, there must be no compromises.

Warm regards

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

[/FONT][/COLOR]


Look, if you have something to say to me just say it. Stop trying to get other people to do your work for you!!!

 

[arshi]

[/FONT][/COLOR]


Look, if you have something to say to me just say it. Stop trying to get other people to do your work for you!!!

My post was only in response to the questions Tejwant Singh ji addressed to me - 25 March 1.48 am. If the thread is followed I have not involved anyone else to do my work and only responded where the post or remarks were directed at me - please see Tejwant Singh ji's posts. As we have digressed so much from the original thread I was aiming to conclude the deviation; although I had prepared a much longer reply but felt it is futile to debate when strong preconceived ideas and prejudices are held - one only has to follow the thread to see what I mean. No amount of counter arguments on my side will resolve anything and only hurt feelings, which I very much wish to avoid.

'Arshi'

 

[arshi]

Tejwant Singh ji

Gurfateh

My earlier post addressed to you was in response to your following comments, which the system chewed up on transmission.

"Thanks for your detailed response. As forums are meant to be for interactions, they can not be treated as mere monologuerums (my word) . What I mean by that is, one who writes anything in public should understand that the questions will be asked and they in no means have the intentions of creating arguments but to clarify what has been said and the writer should be willing and ready for that."

I have experienced this problem for the last two or three weeks, and did mention it to Narayanjot Kaur ji, which is probably due to server problems on one of the ends. I apologise for the omiossion of data due to technical problems.

Rajinder singh 'arshi'



<I>fficeffice" /><?"urn:<img src=" /></I>

 

[spnadmin]

Apologies if text is being amputated because of problem of a technical nature on our end. However, I am a little baffled because I can see the missing text quoted in a reply by Randip. So it may not have been missing at all. This is just my note...no need to reply anybody...I think however I have finally figured out why this is happening.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Such unkind remarks were quite rightly picked up by Aman Singh ji asking for an explanation from the author. It is disappointing to note that many, including yourself, did not condemn such outburst until after Aman Singh ji’s post.

You are being unfair and incorrect in your above statement. Only you know the reasons why. I never condemned anyone's remarks because there was no need to condemn. Please show me the post where I did that after Aman ji's post as you falsely claimed above.

Aman ji can respond to his post himself why he asked Randip ji about this.

First and foremost, it is me who asked if anyone knew anything about this group. Please re- read the thread. What Randip ji said was the information he had.

He said in post #9:

"Well their leader was originally a boozer (Puran Singh Dhanjal). Apprently when he drank he would always eat meat."

What is unkind of the above remarks that need condemnation if Puran Singh ji stopped drinking and started a new page in his life by helping others. It is rather commendable. I mentioned the latter part to you in our PM.

I even said the same in my remarks to Gyani ji in post# 24

"I used to be a boozer too till 1988 and not ashamed to admit it either. It is commendable if Puran Singh ji left his bad habits and had the total metamorphosis within which helped him change his life and of many others. The proof is in the organisation which seems very big."

Before my comment you condemned Randip ji by using Gurbani as your weapon in your post # 11 but did not have the Sikhi courage to tell him directly by addressing his name:

"sant kaa nindak mahaa attaa-ee.
sant kaa nindak khin tikan na paa-ee.
sant kaa nindak mahaa hati-aaraa.
sant kaa nindak parmaysur maaraa.
sant kaa nindak raaj tay heen.
sant kaa nindak dukhee-aa ar deen.
sant kay nindak ka-o sarab rog.
sant kay nindak ka-o sadaa bijog.
sant kee nindaa dokh meh dokh.
naanak sant bhaavai taa us kaa bhee ho-ay mokh. ||3|| (SGGS 280)


The slanderer of the Saint is the evil-doer of utmost extreme. The slanderer of the Saint is always restless. The slanderer of the Saint is the most brutal murderer (butcher). The slanderer of the Saint is forsaken by the Lord. The slanderer of the Saint has no sanctuary (no kingdom). The slanderer of the Saint becomes miserable and pathetic. The slanderer of the Saint is inflicted by every disease. The slanderer of the Saint is forever isolated and shunned. To slander a Saint is the worst sin of sins. O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, then even such (a wretch) may be liberated. ||3|| (SGGS 280)"

We had an interaction about it and you agreed with me that this literal translation was misleading because "saintly" people can not be insulted.

Do you mean I should have condemned Puran Singh ji because of his past bad habits that he corrected or you wanted me to condemn Randip ji by simply saying what he had heard as he was responding to my query?

Your above false accusations and incorrect remarks make no sense and show your ire and rage for the reasons only known to you. I have no idea why you expected me to condemn someone when it was you who were condemning Randip ji quite sheepishly, if I may add without using his name. Gurbani is not a weapon to be used against others in an attack mode, especially when the person has done nothing wrong. Gurbani is used as an ointment to heal any wounds.

Randip Singh ji or any other person can defend themselves. This post is not written to defend him but to clarify some false accusations made by you against me.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Admin]

Criticising an organization is one thing but the damaging and harsh remarks directed at Baba Puran Singh ji were not acceptable. The great man departed many years ago and is not here to defend himself. Such unkind remarks were quite rightly picked up by Aman Singh ji asking for an explanation from the author. It is disappointing to note that many, including yourself, did not condemn such outburst until after Aman Singh ji’s post.

Gurfateh Rajinder Singh Arshi Ji and fellow SPN'ers!

Let me clear this for once and for all. SPN has a very carefully derived set of rules and guidelines (you can read them here, rule # 13 in this case under General Guidelines) which everybody has to follow without an exception, it does not matter whether the person is a Mentor or a Forum Leader (Moderator) or for that matter an Administrator or just about anybody else on this forum. What is the fun of having these rules if the people enforcing them breach it themselves!

So in the past, when time did come, we even asked Tejwant Ji, who has been a Mentor, a Guide at SPN since its inception, to provide verifiable references in the open forum, at the request of a one day old member, who found his allegations against a religion quite harsh and damaging. Tejwant ji did provide the references without an exception. (You can read that conversation between Tejwant Ji and myself here from post #10, page 2 onwards) ... Where as we could have easily brushed up the matter by editing his truthful posts just to hush up the matter but this is not the way SPN platform runs! We have to be accountable for our actions.

In this case, when it was pointed out to me by you, that such harsh comments were made against a personality, i felt duty bound to ask Randip Ji to provide a verifiable reference to prove his allegations against Bhai Puran Singh Ji. But it is quite unfortunate, when you tried to put words in my mouth, by suggesting that i was condemning Randip Ji for his allegations, whereas all i did was to ask him to provide proof as per forum guidelines and this stays like it.

Randip Ji, to his credit said in his post here:

ofcourse there won’t be articles about Puran Singh Dhanjal about his drinking. This is what I have been told by people who were there at the initial conception of this pseudo-ramgharia/namdhari Sikh cult.

I/we have known Randip Ji for like a decade on these internet forums and when he says something that stays put. i find not even an iota of a reason to question or doubt his intentions here or anywhere.

And, in the same post he, quite humbly, went on to say:

I apologise for the offense, but there you have it. Also feel free to remove my comments.

There you have it! What else do we require to calm our anger and frustration? or is it something else?

Finally, I think the matter was quite ably dealt by Gyani Ji's and Tejwant Ji's statements, where they have commended Bhai Puran Singh ji for stopping drinking and affecting the lives of people around him in a positive way.
I would request everybody to calm down and take a chill pill!!

Gurfateh,
Aman Singh