Guru Nanak Never Questioned The Creator

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

I knew you would pick on the fact I quoted Gandhi, but the reason I did so is because he embodied what the ideal of Vasnavite philosophy was/is for the majority of Hindu's.

How am I picking on Gandhi? I do point out that using him as an example is not the same as quoting religious texts. If you want to understand an ancient religion, and the reformist trends within that tradition, you read the scriptures and the comments of reformers. If someone insists on using Gandhi as THE example, one must in fairness factor in the politicized manipulation he used as a politician, who at one time even said, "I am a Hindu, I am a Buddhist, I am a Jain, I am a Christian." Moreover, his entire philosophy of non-cooperation and nonviolence used a spiritual justification in the concepts of satyagraha and ahimsa. But to be honest, Gandhi's non-violence is only a portion of ahimsa from the Vedic scriptures, which is the dharmic philosophy to show reverence for the all-pervading presence of God in all life. As I illustrated, in Bhagavad-Gita is a clear explanation that dharmic living, not to harm is a high ideal, but preservation of the dharma and righteous battle are the noblest path. That is it's message. If you want more than a superficial overview, you must also analyze WHY MK Gandhi intelligently elected political resistence using a philosophy of nonviolence.

It wasn't because he was some sort of coward. He was an extremely brave man, and majority of Sikhs also were persuaded that a successful fight against the overpowering British, was an appeal to the world conscience. There were already massacres committed by the British. A resistence whose fight was based on dying in massacres would be short-lived. So, as a trained lawyer and intellectual, Gandhi did play a shrewd game of chess. He became a thorn in the side of the British by publicizing the injustices. When the British responded with force, the satyagrahis took the beatings. And those beatings shamed the British in the eyes of public opinion and got the whole of the British public favoring Indian independance. And that is exactly what Gandhi wanted.

I believe it was his failure to trust too much in his own philosophy. While it was successful in uniting India and shaming the British and winning the British sympathy, it was an utter failure with the Muslims regarding partition and formation of Pakistan.

So, if the whole world modernly perceives Vaishnavism to be pacifistic monasticism, and in some ways Gandhi-like, there is truth to that perception. However, one has to analyze how Vaishnavism changed historically. As I demonstrated with credible references, the early Vaishnav and shaivite acharas were Armies! And they even fought against each other. The British had a stated policy of not tolerating armed sadhus, and essentially killing and arresting them. So the British raj actually promoted the modern variant of peaceful monks which were not a historic match with the original teachings, original emphasis, and perhaps that was a reaction created to respond to Moghul and subsequently British oppression.

But to insist on the point, that Sikhism has nothing in common with Vaishnavism because it has nothing in common with Gandhi, is such an oversimplification as to not be persuasive. How many modern Sikhs are much different in lifestyle from Gandhi himself? Yet, we would all conclude the original Nihang Khalsa were a much different type of individual, armed to the teeth, expert militarists, and not prone to tolerate any abuse from anyone. And we have historical evidence in the form of Dasm Granth bani that Guru Gobind Singh Ji used examples of militarism and combat from Vaishnava Upanishads and traditional stories to bolser His martial ideal. So please don't rely on the modernistic evolution of certain schools of philosophy to prove or disprove historical relationships. MK Gandhi was a lawyer and politician. He bears no realistic resemblance to Vaishnavite and Shaivite Nath Acharas when they were formidable armies, and hence in a position to credibly influence the formation of Sikh religion, which is the context in which I evaluate the ancient scriptures and historical movements.

Also is not Shivite philosophy disticntly different from Vashnvite? You seem to be putting the two together. I find that confusing. What you have posted is surely revisionist Vashnavite thinking?

There are differences, similarities and overlapping since they tended to be part of a reform movement reacting to both institutionalized prejudices of Brahmin elites and Moghul oppression. How can it be "distinctly different" when they are from the same location, relying on the same scriptural tradition and same language? This is not apples and oranges, this is 2 different types of apples. The yoga element (By this I do not mean postures, but techniques of Naam jap, awakening kundalini energy to unite Shiva and Shakti, opening dasam duar, teachings of the subtle nadis, Ire, pingala and shushmana, etc) is distinctly Shaivite. Yet this Nath tradition overlaps both Vaishnavism and Sikhism. Because different philosophical elements appear together in different traditions is why I mention them together.

Shiva is considered the Master Yogi and Shri Chand and Udasi Panth are considered a branch of Shaivite Nath, so it is undeniable at least certain elements close to Sikhism from the very earliest history bear some Nath influences. Also, geographically Shaivite and Vaishnav sampradyas both fought against each other, and also alongside each other. The influences are undeniable. Both sampradyas are Vedantic and have similarities of teaching. The essential difference between them is Vaishnavs believe only Maha-Vishnu (not Vishnu the demi-god, but Supreme Vishnu as the all-pervading) and the lineage of Vishnu avtaaras are the sargun manifestation of the nirguna. As a consequence they subordinate Shiva as a mere demi-god who does not understand the limits of the nirguna, so Shiva is below an avtaar. The Shaivites believe that Shiva is the ultimate sargun manifestation of the nirguna and that he killed or wounded Vishnu. So that is the root of their conflicts. But their teachings tend to overlap. Vaishnavs believe bhakti and Naam jap is the ultimate path to mukti. Shaivites believe yoga asanas are the ultimate path.
Shaivites are the older tradition, with Vaishnavism popping up as a reform movement of untouchable caste from within it.

Rapt in the Name: Ramnamis, Ramnam and the Untouchable religion

Many scholars claim Kashmiri Shaivism to be purely spiritual but padatis show a relationship between tradition and sources of funding, such as stipulated payments for a certain number of initiations on specific dates of the year. Tax exempted land grants and other gifts for priests were prescribed. In return, the king and his consort were consecrated with abhisheka after Shiva mandala deeksha. Throne, banners and even weapons were included as objects of worship. The king was conferred the duty of upholding Shaivite faith over the Brahmanical, as well as continuing the role of master of varnashrama.

A single priest would often be deeksha-guru to more than one king at a time. Records show gifts to the guru sometimes included {censored}nal and there is a case when a king died in battle, the rajguru rode in and attacked the enemy with his skilful archery.

Shaivic priests also took over the role of the rajpurohit, performing daily rituals before eating, bathing, exercising, blessing weapons and persons before battle. A parallel south Indian text, Yamala, actually states that the Shaivite sarvadhikari can consecrate and establish all subordinate deities, temples and persons which included all other religions, Vaishnav, Buddhist, Jain, as these were designated inferior.

The texts of the Vaishnav tradition heavily and often clumsily borrowed from the Shaivite texts as they used ‘the software of Shiva.’ Also, Brahmanic and Shaivite traditions both subsumed each other’s particulars and boundaries between them dissolved in the puranas, particularly the Agnipurana.
India International Centre : Discussion Forums

In anycase , I remained unconvinced that Sikhism is anymore following Vashnavite philosophy, then it is following Islam, Sufism, Christianity or any other religion.

I can only share information. I have no power to convince. If anyone considers the historical and scriptural sources in an unbiased way and still denies parallels between Vaishnavism and Shaivite Nath tradition which are both Vedantic teachings, and Sikhism, and prefers to see an equal parallel with teachings of Christianity or Islam, I can only shake my head. As I said, I cannot convince, but the fact is Christianity is influenced by Egyptian religion and Zoroastrianism, and in this respect somewhat close to Jain religion. But the likelihood is Vaishnavism also influenced Christianity through Mithraism. It's a known fact that Manichean Gnostic Christianity influenced Tibetan and Pure Land Buddhism.

Where does Gurbani have a concept of Jesus dying on the cross to redeem the original sin of mankind? Without this salvific grace, there is no Christian religion, and hence no credible Christian influence. Dying to historically right wrongs is not the same thing as deity puja, where the sacred blood has the power to redeem sins. This puja of the God-man is the essence of Christian religion. Jesus isn't considered "God" in the same way as people believe Guruji is God by having Jyot of the God, or God-consciousness. Jesus in his physical body is considered divine, so his blood has the power to save. There is no merging. There is no all-pervading. There is no reincarnation or cycle of births and deaths. There are no yugs. In Zoroastrian fashion, the evil demi-god Satan is a literal counterpart of the good God, YHWH, whose name to Jews is unpronounceable, but in corrupted Christian tradition is called, Yahweh, or Jehovah. Resisting tyranny and oppression through armed conflict is rejected, as Christians teach to render to the governing authority what is their due, even if you are a slave, you are expected to be a "good" slave per the Pauline epistles.

"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men." ~Christian Bible, 1 Peter 2:13​

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." ~Christian Bible, I Peter 2:18​

"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby." ~Old Testament Bible, Deuteronomy 20:10-17​

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" ~Hebrews 9:13-14​

Sufism is simply Hinduized Islam. So I don't even count it as a separate tradition. The majority of Sufi saints either had direct relationship with or considered themselves to be Vaishnava.

Tracing the evolution of the Naqshabandiyya Mujaddidiyya in India in the years after the death of Shaikh Ahmad, this *book shows how at least some leading masters of this order veered round to a more accommodative attitude towards the Hindus. A major shift can be observed in this regard with the eighteenth century Mirza Mazhar Jan-i Janan of Delhi, who, while a strict upholder of the shari ‘ah, adopted a somewhat less strict posture vis-a-vis the Hindus than Shaikh Ahmad. As Dahnhardt shows, he went so far as to accept the Hindu deities, Rama and Krishna, as prophets of God.

Dahnhardt writes that in the decades after Mirza Mazhar Jan-i Janan’s death, at least some Sufi masters in his spiritual line established close relations with ‘Hindu’ mystics, particularly those associated with the ‘Nanakpanth’ and the ‘Kabirpanth’, traditions associated with the sant tradition of Indian mysticism. These orders preached a universal message transcending narrowly-inscribed religious boundaries, and had traditionally attracted both Hindus as well as Muslims, mostly from the ‘lower’ castes. They were fiercely opposed to what they saw as the soulless ritualism of the Brahmin priests and the ‘orthodox’ Muslim ‘ulama.
On Hindu Sufism

~Bhul chak maaf

 

[Randip Singh]

But to insist on the point, that Sikhism has nothing in common with Vaishnavism because it has nothing in common with Gandhi, is such an oversimplification as to not be persuasive.

I am not saying that at all.

Kabir a stauch Vashnavite (although Muslim by faith/birth) has his sayings included in Bani, however, not all his sayings are. Sheikh Farid has some of his writings included in Bani, but not all.

page 518
ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa­oṛī.
Pauree:

ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸਣੁ ਖੜੇ ॥
तुधु धिआइन्हि बेद कतेबा सणु खड़े ॥
Ŧuḏẖ ḏẖi­ā­īniĥ bėḏ kaṯėbā saṇ kẖaṛė.
The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You.

ਗਣਤੀ ਗਣੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਤੇਰੈ ਦਰਿ ਪੜੇ ॥
गणती गणी न जाइ तेरै दरि पड़े ॥
Gaṇṯī gaṇī na jā­ė ṯėrai ḏar paṛė.
Uncounted are those who fall at Your Door.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਾ ॥
ब्रहमे तुधु धिआइन्हि इंद्र इंद्रासणा ॥
Barahmė ṯuḏẖ ḏẖi­ā­īniĥ inḏar inḏrāsaṇā.
Brahma meditates on You, as does Indra on his throne.

ਸੰਕਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣਾ ॥
संकर बिसन अवतार हरि जसु मुखि भणा ॥
Sankar bisan avṯār har jas mukẖ bẖaṇā.
Shiva and Vishnu, and their incarnations, chant the Lord's Praise with their mouths,

ਪੀਰ ਪਿਕਾਬਰ ਸੇਖ ਮਸਾਇਕ ਅਉਲੀਏ ॥
पीर पिकाबर सेख मसाइक अउलीए ॥
Pīr pikābar sėkẖ masā­ik a­ulī­ė.
as do the Pirs, the spiritual teachers, the prophets and the Shaykhs, the silent sages and the seers.

ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਮਉਲੀਏ ॥
ओति पोति निरंकार घटि घटि मउलीए ॥
Oṯ poṯ nirankār gẖat gẖat ma­ulī­ė.
Through and through, the Formless Lord is woven into each and every heart.

ਕੂੜਹੁ ਕਰੇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ਧਰਮੇ ਤਗੀਐ ॥
कूड़हु करे विणासु धरमे तगीऐ ॥
Kūṛahu karė viṇās ḏẖarmė ṯagī­ai.
One is destroyed through falsehood; through righteousness, one prospers.

ਜਿਤੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਗੀਐ ॥੨॥
जितु जितु लाइहि आपि तितु तितु लगीऐ ॥२॥
Jiṯ jiṯ lā­ihi āp ṯiṯ ṯiṯ lagī­ai. ||2||
Whatever the Lord links him to, to that he is linked. ||2||

Sikhi tries to be inclusive i.e. it will look for similarities in the messages of other faiths that is cohrent with Sikhi. It does not mean Sikhi follows a certain path i.e. Vaishnav, Shivite, Islam, Christian.

Page 747

ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
सूही महला ५ ॥
Sūhī mehlā 5.
Soohee, Fifth Mehl:

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਜੋ ਦੀਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਜਾਗਾਤੀ ਲੂਟੈ ॥
करम धरम पाखंड जो दीसहि तिन जमु जागाती लूटै ॥
Karam ḏẖaram pakẖand jo ḏīseh ṯin jam jāgāṯī lūtai.
The religious rites, rituals and hypocrisies which are seen, are plundered by the Messenger of Death, the ultimate tax collector.

ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਕਾ ਨਿਮਖ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਜਿਤੁ ਛੂਟੈ ॥੧॥
निरबाण कीरतनु गावहु करते का निमख सिमरत जितु छूटै ॥१॥
Nirbāṇ kīrṯan gāvhu karṯė kā nimakẖ simraṯ jiṯ cẖẖūtai. ||1||
In the state of Nirvaanaa, sing the Kirtan of the Creator's Praises; contemplating Him in meditation, even for an instant, one is saved. ||1||

ਸੰਤਹੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਰੀਐ ॥
संतहु सागरु पारि उतरीऐ ॥
Sanṯahu sāgar pār uṯrī­ai.
O Saints, cross over the world-ocean.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਬਚਨੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਾ ਸੋ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਤਰੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जे को बचनु कमावै संतन का सो गुर परसादी तरीऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jė ko bacẖan kamāvai sanṯan kā so gur parsādī ṯarī­ai. ||1|| rahā­o.
One who practices the Teachings of the Saints, by Guru's Grace, is carried across. ||1||Pause||

ਕੋਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਮਜਨ ਇਸਨਾਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਭਰੀਜੈ ॥
कोटि तीरथ मजन इसनाना इसु कलि महि मैलु भरीजै ॥
Kot ṯirath majan isnānā is kal meh mail bẖarījai.
Millions of cleansing baths at sacred shrines of pilgrimage only fill the mortal with filth in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga.

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥੨॥
साधसंगि जो हरि गुण गावै सो निरमलु करि लीजै ॥२॥
Sāḏẖsang jo har guṇ gāvai so nirmal kar lījai. ||2||
One who sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, becomes spotlessly pure. ||2||

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
बेद कतेब सिम्रिति सभि सासत इन्ह पड़िआ मुकति न होई ॥
Bėḏ kaṯėb simriṯ sabẖ sāsaṯ inĥ paṛi­ā mukaṯ na ho­ī.
One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.

ਏਕੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਜੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
एकु अखरु जो गुरमुखि जापै तिस की निरमल सोई ॥३॥
Ėk akẖar jo gurmukẖ jāpai ṯis kī nirmal so­ī. ||3||
One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation. ||3||

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
खत्री ब्राहमण सूद वैस उपदेसु चहु वरना कउ साझा ॥
Kẖaṯrī barāhmaṇ sūḏ vais upḏės cẖahu varnā ka­o sājẖā.
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.

Sikhism has far too many similarities with many faiths to proclaim it is following generally the path on anyone. You may find the Judeo-Christian-Islamic path unpalatable, but Nanak sat and ate and discussed religion with these people. He visited their shrines, and delivered to them a message of unity and brotheredhood that is revered by them to this day.

One could go into the fine detail of Sikhi and other faiths and say that it follows such and such path, and I have had many discussions with Muslims and Hindu's alike who claim Sikhi follows their path.

We seem to be having the same debate as occured 500 years ago, as to whether we should bury Guru Nanak or Creamate him.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Sikhi tries to be inclusive i.e. it will look for similarities in the messages of other faiths that is cohrent with Sikhi. It does not mean Sikhi follows a certain path i.e. Vaishnav, Shivite, Islam, Christian.

Sikhism is inclusive within the context of a Vedic tradition.

One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.

The Vedas, Upanishads and Vaishnava Puranas also teach this. Liberation doesn't come from being a pandit. It comes from Bhakti and Naam jap, and having a Satguru.

Sikhism has far too many similarities with many faiths to proclaim it is following generally the path on anyone. You may find the Judeo-Christian-Islamic path unpalatable, but Nanak sat and ate and discussed religion with these people. He visited their shrines, and delivered to them a message of unity and brotheredhood that is revered by them to this day.

One could go into the fine detail of Sikhi and other faiths and say that it follows such and such path, and I have had many discussions with Muslims and Hindu's alike who claim Sikhi follows their path.

I have shown numerous examples of the teachings in Gurbani, even the words nirgun, sargun, Parabrahm, Vasudeyv, All-Pervading Oneness, mukti, samadhi, Fourth state, yugs, das avtaara, narak-surag, etc all come from Vedic sources. Can you please show me the distinctly Christian and Islamic teachings which Gurbani equally teaches as universal Sat?

Please don't just say they are there because philosophically it would be "nice" to be inclusive. Show me how Abrahamic monotheism can be reconciled with All-pervading pantheistic Oneness. Show me any place where the actual teachings which could be distinguished as Christian or Islamic appear anywhere in Gurbani, and not just popularity of Guru Nanak Dev Ji as a sant and holy person is claimed as some form of Christian and Muslim. Because I can show you 100 examples of Gurbani teaching which is nearly word for word exact teaching of Vaishnavism. It is the sanatan philosophy to be inclusive. Funny how you keep trying to prove the most exclusive and rejecting traditions, Christianity and Islam are somehow an influence on Gurbani. The proof is Sufism is so Hinduized as to be compatible. But direct Islam... well, explain why they are persecuting Sufis? And the reason is, Sufism, they believe has contaminated the pure One Truth of Islam as heretics.

Guruji acknowledged all religions have the same One God. But that sameness is defined in terms of Vedanta, All-pervading nirguna and sarguna. So within an inclusive and tolerant Vedantic framework, Gurbani defines the Reality about God and how to seek Him. And nothing whatsoever in that teaching is belief in confession of sins to Jesus the God as necessary for salvation and to renounce any belief in any other teacher such as Guru. There is nothing in Gurbani where a revert has to publically proclaim faith in Mohammed and renounce all other religions as false. And compare this with Sufi bhagats who chanted Raam Naam and Hare Krishana. There is simply no comparison to be made. Denials of Vaishnav origin of Sikhism are without persuasion. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have this teaching in common: God is One, and he is a jealous god who tolerates no demonic counterfeit. All other gods and religious traditions are considered inferior, evil, primitive and must be renounced before one is accepted as a Christian or a Muslim. Jews are a little more tolerant of non-Jews, but believe they will get a chance to become righteous gentiles who must believe the same things. Christians and Muslims send people to hell, not just for evil deeds, but also for evil beliefs in false religions. Just ask any Christian or Muslim their honest opinion of Sikh religion. If they are not being deceptive to win your confidence like missionaries, they will admit, the religion of Sikhism is false and Sikhs are going to hell. Both faiths historically have condoned torture and murder of unbelievers to compel conversions. If anything, Christianity and Islam are the religious teachings in common with Moghul oppression.


This is why I keep refering to Vaishnavism, because the philosophical foundation of Gurbani as a spiritual teaching is derived almost word for word from Vaishnava Upanishads, and not really have such on point compatibility with any other sect. Just explain the vaars below to me OUTSIDE a context of Vaishnavism, and in a way which would be acceptable to Christians and Muslims, please.




Vaar 10 Pauri 23 Demise of krsna at the hands of a hunter

ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ ।
jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|
At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.

ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ ।
charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.

ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ ।
badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ।
darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged
forgiveness.

ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ।
gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ।
kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the
wrongdoer.

ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ।
bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the
Lord only.

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥
paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
He has liberated many fallen sinners.
~Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji



Vaar 23 Pauri 9 Krsnachandravatar
ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ।
kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|
The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world.

ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ ।
leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|
He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation).

ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ ।
mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|
Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further
made them wonder struck.

ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ।
indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|
Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur.

ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ ।
mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai|
When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties.

ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ ।
mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai|
Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥
saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥
he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of
the Guru.
~Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji




So vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji refer to Bhagavan Krishna as Sarguna. How would Christians and Muslims ever tolerate that as true teaching? They wouldn't. And what does that say about people who try to interpret Gurbani along Christian and Islamic exclusivism and monotheism? It doesn't work. It doesn't match with all the pieces of the puzzle. The correct interpretation is the one that will match up with all the sources.

What matches up? Seriously, it is Vaishnavism. But I will add there is enough of a Shaivite component, particularly with Nihang Jatha as to cause me to have to accept 2 paths, meat eating and vegetarianism. However, one point in Gurbani is abundantly clear. God is called cow-protector (Gopala), and halal meat is forbidden. This means all Jewish and Islamic meat is forbidden. Why is this? This does imply beef is forbidden, and it is history as you know (I linked from your website a few things) that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a firm supporter of cow protection laws. Early support of Singhs during agitation of Indian independance also were firm supporters of cow protection legislation.

Do you deny it?

 

[Randip Singh]

Sikhism is inclusive within the context of a Vedic tradition.

In the Hindu Vedic tradition, another faith religion is actually part of the Hindu / Vedic tradition, Sikhism is different, it does not say that X Y religion is part of Sikhi, it says that religion is that religion, but we have common areas. One tries to absorb the faith, one recognises the distinctiveness of that faith and finds common areas.

The Vedas, Upanishads and Vaishnava Puranas also teach this. Liberation doesn't come from being a pandit. It comes from Bhakti and Naam jap, and having a Satguru.

Maybe a common area with Sikhi.

I have shown numerous examples of the teachings in Gurbani, even the words nirgun, sargun, Parabrahm, Vasudeyv, All-Pervading Oneness, mukti, samadhi, Fourth state, yugs, das avtaara, narak-surag, etc all come from Vedic sources. Can you please show me the distinctly Christian and Islamic teachings which Gurbani equally teaches as universal Sat?.

The Bible wasn't written by Jesus and neither the Koran by Mohammed. Is the message of the Bible and Koran the actually message of these men. Also see how many times the Koran and Bible are mentioned in Bani:

Sri Granth: Search Results

Sri Granth: Search Results

Also Allah:

Sri Granth: Search Results

I could do many searches in other terms too but I think you get my point.

Please don't just say they are there because philosophically it would be "nice" to be inclusive.

I am not saying that. Bani is critical of all faiths.

Show me how Abrahamic monotheism can be reconciled with All-pervading pantheistic Oneness. Show me any place where the actual teachings which could be distinguished as Christian or Islamic appear anywhere in Gurbani, and not just popularity of Guru Nanak Dev Ji as a sant and holy person is claimed as some form of Christian and Muslim. Because I can show you 100 examples of Gurbani teaching which is nearly word for word exact teaching of Vaishnavism. It is the sanatan philosophy to be inclusive. Funny how you keep trying to prove the most exclusive and rejecting traditions, Christianity and Islam are somehow an influence on Gurbani. The proof is Sufism is so Hinduized as to be compatible. But direct Islam... well, explain why they are persecuting Sufis? And the reason is, Sufism, they believe has contaminated the pure One Truth of Islam as heretics.

That word for word is your interpretation and your view, not mine. I try and view Sikhi from all aspects, and not just one point of view.

Guruji acknowledged all religions have the same One God. But that sameness is defined in terms of Vedanta, All-pervading nirguna and sarguna. So within an inclusive and tolerant Vedantic framework, Gurbani defines the Reality about God and how to seek Him. And nothing whatsoever in that teaching is belief in confession of sins to Jesus the God as necessary for salvation and to renounce any belief in any other teacher such as Guru. There is nothing in Gurbani where a revert has to publically proclaim faith in Mohammed and renounce all other religions as false. And compare this with Sufi bhagats who chanted Raam Naam and Hare Krishana. There is simply no comparison to be made. Denials of Vaishnav origin of Sikhism are without persuasion. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have this teaching in common: God is One, and he is a jealous god who tolerates no demonic counterfeit. All other gods and religious traditions are considered inferior, evil, primitive and must be renounced before one is accepted as a Christian or a Muslim. Jews are a little more tolerant of non-Jews, but believe they will get a chance to become righteous gentiles who must believe the same things. Christians and Muslims send people to hell, not just for evil deeds, but also for evil beliefs in false religions. Just ask any Christian or Muslim their honest opinion of Sikh religion. If they are not being deceptive to win your confidence like missionaries, they will admit, the religion of Sikhism is false and Sikhs are going to hell. Both faiths historically have condoned torture and murder of unbelievers to compel conversions. If anything, Christianity and Islam are the religious teachings in common with Moghul oppression.

Sikhs are majority from Hindu's, and in order to explain to them concepts within Sikhi, one has to use termiinoligy with which these pseudo-Sikhs were familiar with, hence the use of Vedic/Hindu philosophy. It does not mean Sikhi follows Vaishnavism however.

This is why I keep refering to Vaishnavism, because the philosophical foundation of Gurbani as a spiritual teaching is derived almost word for word from Vaishnava Upanishads, and not really have such on point compatibility with any other sect. Just explain the vaars below to me OUTSIDE a context of Vaishnavism, and in a way which would be acceptable to Christians and Muslims, please.




Vaar 10 Pauri 23 Demise of krsna at the hands of a hunter

ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ ।
jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|
At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.

ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ ।
charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.

ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ ।
badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ।
darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged
forgiveness.

ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ।
gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ।
kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the
wrongdoer.

ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ।
bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the
Lord only.

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥
paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
He has liberated many fallen sinners.
~Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji



Vaar 23 Pauri 9 Krsnachandravatar
ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ।
kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|
The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world.

ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ ।
leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|
He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation).

ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ ।
mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|
Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further
made them wonder struck.

ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ।
indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|
Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur.

ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ ।
mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai|
When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties.

ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ ।
mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai|
Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥
saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥
he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of
the Guru.
~Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji




So vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji refer to Bhagavan Krishna as Sarguna. How would Christians and Muslims ever tolerate that as true teaching? They wouldn't. And what does that say about people who try to interpret Gurbani along Christian and Islamic exclusivism and monotheism? It doesn't work. It doesn't match with all the pieces of the puzzle. The correct interpretation is the one that will match up with all the sources.

Many Islamists like Kabir ji would have no problem with these phrases, and like I havestated above, Hindu analogies have been used to describe Sikh concepts.

What matches up? Seriously, it is Vaishnavism. But I will add there is enough of a Shaivite component, particularly with Nihang Jatha as to cause me to have to accept 2 paths, meat eating and vegetarianism. However, one point in Gurbani is abundantly clear. God is called cow-protector (Gopala), and halal meat is forbidden. This means all Jewish and Islamic meat is forbidden. Why is this? This does imply beef is forbidden, and it is history as you know (I linked from your website a few things) that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a firm supporter of cow protection laws. Early support of Singhs during agitation of Indian independance also were firm supporters of cow protection legislation.

Do you deny it?

On the last point (without turning this into a meat debate), all ritually slaughtered meat seems to forbidden including rites in Hinduism such as Anustrani and Bali. Here's an example:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.


jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee.

pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee.
mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee.
kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. rahaa-o.
maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee.
aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee.
sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree.
raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree.
dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa.
kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa.​

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.
Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up?
If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!
Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found?Pause
Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.
Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want.
You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.
You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean.
You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.
Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways.​

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji​

So its not just Halal and Kosher. Strictly speaking beef is not forbidden (but it is not eaten out of respect for Hindu's), as the cow is revered by Hindu's.

Cow slaughter was a political tool used by the Islamic Authorities to subjugate the Hindu majority. Maharaja Ranjit Singh's move was a political move to appease Hindu's.

As for other points, you should delve more into the detail of what is not compatible in Hinduism with Sikhism as you have with Islam and Christianity.

Some interesting points have been made, and one thing I have picked up is the ebb and flow of Sikhi, of how Sikhi throughout History has had tendency to fall into the dominant Indian culture i.e. Hinduism , and how the numbers of people who describe themselves as Sikh has varied.

We are going through a period where people are identifying more with Hinduism and Sikhi, rather than seeing Sikhi in its own right.

 

[jagmeet]

I have read some of the posts here and am surprised by the knowledge of and research put in by the members.But frankly, I don't see how it's important that Sikhism resembles A or B school of Hinduism or some other religion.Besides, I don't know if there are such well defined schools or demarcations in Hinduism.We see the same people going to Vishnu temples as well Shiva temples as well as calling Brahmins to their homes--where is the distinction between Vaishnavite, Shaivite or Brahminic traditions?I hope Harjas Kaur ji and others can explain.

Besides, even if there is similarity between one religion and the other--so what?After all, truth is one--so there are bound to be similarities.

I would also like to add that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj has clearly stated:

'Paen gahe jab te tumre
Tab te kou aankh tare nahin aanyo
Ram Rahim Puran Kuran
Anek kahein mat ek na maanyo
Simrit sastra bed sabhe
Bahu bhed kahein hum ek na jaanyo
Sri Aspaan kripa tumri kar
Mein na kahiyo sabh tohe bakhanyo'

 

[Canuck Singh]

I find it amazing how such things are discussed in an encapsulated form on forum's while in the real world, people are continually driven by the basic low level intention's of human life, that is work towards money or progress depending on the wealth of the nation, attempt to live life but yet involve oneself in escapism throughout, and to live out life's youth until a meandering end... Wondering what place each conversation on all the forum's on all the web places has towards the development of the human consciousness...
Wondering also, what is it that particular moment when a person has a shift in belief or perception. When we choose to change the way we look at things, the things we look at change?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

But frankly, I don't see how it's important that Sikhism resembles A or B school of Hinduism or some other religion.

Discussions about Hinduism usually focus on the presumed failures and worst excesses so that it's not even portrayed realistically. And the reason for that is the modern Sikh interpretation of Gurbani which is the belief held by the Singh Sabha reform, that Hinduism is bad, Hinduism is a threat to Sikh nationhood and sovereignty, and that Guruji renounced or rejected fundamental elements of Hindu religion to make Sikhism distinct. So the majority of Sikh discussions about Hinduism are very negative and very inaccurate portrayals. That negativity about Hindu religion and teaching is the Sikh assumption.

So if we have a discussion about "yoga" in Gurbani, a mixed reaction will occur, because Sikhs often have a low opinion about any practices related to Hindu religion. So in absence of any analysis, something like yoga is automatically termed "useless ritualism." Because Sikh religion is believed to reject the kind of useless ritualism that Hindu religion teaches, Sikhism is argued to be a "superior" or "more modern" spiritual path. The reason for an analysis of Vedantic religion is it's own teachings contradict the prevailing assumptions. For example if Sikhs insist Hinduism is all about caste injustice, and Sikhism as a separate identity is based on rejecting caste, then if someone points out Vaishnavism started as a reform against caste injustices, we have to view Hinduism less negatively. "Sikh religion defines itself by what is contrary to Hindu religious injustice or hypocrisy." Sikh identity is going to fall by that definition if it can be proved the negative interpretations of Hindu religion are based on innacurate assumptions.

I'm saying there's a big political lie hidden in all this. And that lie is firstly, Hindu religion is all bad, negative, hypocritical, based on caste injustices and brahmin elitism; when it can also be shown Hinduism contains reform movements which address these errors. And secondly the lie states Sikh identity as a separate religion is based on exaggerated distinctions of what Hinduism is not. That is the purpose of showing school A and school B. If school A is the worst, hypocitical social injustice, and school B is the reform trying to address injustices by restoring the original Vedic teachings, and nearly identical to Sikh teaching, what happens to the political lie propping up Sikh identity as a new religion? I think that's why there's so much unconscious hostility to actually learning what Hinduism really teaches. Sikhs are taught to unconsciously hate Hinduism as an inferior religion.

Because certain elements within Hinduism do teach casteism as a form of social injustice, I can't say Hinduism is without caste injustice or that Gurbani is innacurate about Hinduism to say this. So I have to distinguish between school A and school B. But if Gurbani distinguishes between Hinduism as being brahmin elitism and hypocrisy, and vaishnavism which is equated with a Gurmukh, clearly something has been profoundly mistranslated. And it begs the question, why are Sikh educational institutions doing precisely that? Why is the Sikh identity predicated on the difference between hypocritical, ritualistic and negative practices of Hinduism when clearly Hinduism itself also had reform movements not unlike Sikhism to remedy those spiritual and social defects?

And if we delve even deeper, we see the relationship between Sikhism and some of those reform movements, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Ramanandis, Kabirpanthis, Sufis, have quite a degree of overlap with small differences in teaching. How did Sikhism come to be defined as a separate religion? Does it have enough independance as a different philosophical teaching to be so distinct as to be categorized a separate religion? On analysis, Buddhism which acknowledges it's sanatan and Hindu origin is far different within Dvaitic Vedantic philosophy as to be viewed as a separate religion, but Sikhism doesn't even have this spiritual and philosophical difference. It doesn't teach anything radically new or separate, including both Dvaitic and Advaitic components as does Vaishnavism. It is in fact a reform movement within Hinduism standing on the exact same terminology and definitions of the Gaudiya Vaishnava Vedanta school of Hindu philosophy. So if Sikhism was a Vaishnava reform movement, how did it get so completely dislocated outside of any parameter which would be considered Hindu? And the reason is the intellectual dishonesty of Singh Sabha reformers who sought political power and independant rulership from the British by exaggerating differences between Sikh teaching and Hindu religion. Singh Sabha reform is the reason why modern Sikhs have a negative view of Hindu religion as being defined by the worst excesses and hypocrisy. Without this exaggeration between what Hinduism is, and Sikhism is not, the differences in the teachings begin to crumble.

ਕਟੀਐ ਤੇਰਾ ਅਹੰ ਰੋਗੁ ॥
katteeai thaeraa ahan rog ||
The disease of your ego shall be eradicated.

ਤੂੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗੁ ॥੧॥
thoon gur prasaadh kar raaj jog ||1||
By Guru's Grace, practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 211 ​

So finding places where Gurbani actually seems to be teaching something which is contrary to the prevailing opinion is where this discussion began to examine Gurbani actual teachings in comparison with actual teachings (not presumed or simply cultural practices) of Hindu religion.

So for example, the SGPC Rehit Maryada states:

CHAPTER X
Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni)
Article XVI


The Guru's tenets are:

a. Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.
b. Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.
c. Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity.
d. Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, days and occasions, influence of stars, horoscopic dispositions, Shradh (ritual serving of food to priests for the salvation of ancestor on appointed days as per the lunar calendar), Ancestor worship, khiah (ritual serving of food to priests - Brahmins - on the lunar anniversaries of death of an ancestor)... fasting on new or full moon or other days, wearing of frontal marks on forehead, wearing of thread... idolatry and such like superstitious observances

(Most, though not all, rituals and ritual or religious observances listed in this clause are hindu rituals and observances. The reason is that the old rituals and practices, continues to be observed by large numbers of Sikhs even after their conversion from their old to new faith and a large bulk of the Sikhs novices were Hindu converts. Another reason for this phenomenon was the strangle hold of the Brahmin priest on Hindus' secular and religious life which the Brahmin priests managed to maintain even on those leaving the Hindu religious fold, by the his astute mental dexterity and rare capacity for compromise...)

... Not owning up or regarding as hallowed any place other than the Guru's place- such, for instance, as sacred sports or places of pilgrimage of other faiths. Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins' holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the Gayatri,(Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun) the Gita, the Quaran, the Bible, etc. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is admissible.

e. The Khalsa should maintain its distinctiveness among the professors of different religions of the world, but should not hurt the sentiments of any person professing another religion.
Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

You have become the pure Khalsa, having renounced your previous lineage, professional background, calling (occupation), beliefs, that is, having given up all connections with your caste, descent, birth, country, religion, etc. You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, incarnation or prophet.
Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India

So when discussing tuuks of Gurbani which talk about devas, people immediately contradict to say "Guruji doesn't believe in devas. Sikhs don't believe in devas. All Hindu's worship all devas." It is assumed, the devas mentioned in Gurbani must have been to placate former Hindus but that Guru didn't believe in devas at all. Sikhs do not accept them, either as real, or as meaningful. And these "assumptions" are what demarcate and define "Sikhism" from "Hinduism."


So it is my interest, not what are the prevailing assumptions, not what are the opinioins of Singh Sabha reform imposed on interpretation of Gurbani by Sikh institutions, like SGPC, but simply:

"What does Gurbani actually say, and why?" Are mention of devas accidental historical footnote? Is mention of Raja yoga another accident? Is discussion of ida, pingala and shushmana and dasm duar some leftover ritualism? What about how it pertains to mukti, how it pertains to Naam? Should it matter to us then? Why is Naam of the One God called after names of Hindu devas? After names of Vishnu avtaaras?"

So you see, it becomes a study, because the average Sikh can't answer the questions about yoga, kundalini awakening, place or meaning of devas or names of devas in Gurbani by simply using the same blanket assumptions to cover inconvenient things. Do you know how many Sikhs are uncomfortable with, even embarrased by the mention of Hindu devas in SGGS Ji and Dasam Granth bani? So the prevailing view is inadequate to answer.

Besides, I don't know if there are such well defined schools or demarcations in Hinduism. We see the same people going to Vishnu temples as well Shiva temples as well as calling Brahmins to their homes--where is the distinction between Vaishnavite, Shaivite or Brahminic traditions? I hope Harjas Kaur ji and others can explain.

If a Sikh explaining Gurbani tuuks that talk about Hindu devas says: "Hindu's worship devas and Sikhs worship Akal Purakh." It at first glance seems a satisfactory answer. But what if all Hindus don't worship all devas? What if, some Hindus are actually monotheistic? Would that turn this definition distinguishing "Sikhs" from "Hindus" on it's head?

You see that's the very crux of the issue. Singh Sabha reformers made no distinction between different schools of Hindu philosophy, and instead lumped together the worst excesses in a propagandistic way claiming, these general definitions are what Hinduism is. And it can be proved to be a lie. And any lie serves a propagandistic purpose, so I began to investigate "why" such a lie, repeated over and over by Sikhs and written in such documents as SGPC Sikh Rehit Maryada would continue to claim:

-Hindu religion practices meaningless rituals
-Hindu religion believes in deva, devti and doesn't worship the One true God
-Hindu religion believes the Ajooni can be incarnated as an avtaar
-Hindu religion is indistinguishable from brahminism and caste injustices
-Hinduism, yoga, rituals are no path to mukti, only Sikhism has the boat


So what if the average Hindu believes, or mixes practices. Is the average Hindu an example of Hindu teaching any more than the average Sikh is an example of Sikh teaching? And the answer is, no! Sikh teaching is independant of what the average Sikh believes or practices. Do you realize how low we could drag Sikhism down by trying to prove Sikhism is based on what the average Sikh believs or practices rather than allow Sikh teaching to speak for itself? Why would any Sikh insist that Sikhism be defined by Gurbani, direct words of Guru, but Hindu religion be defined by the personal beliefs and practices of individual Hindus and not honestly evaluate Hindu scriptures for the actual teachings? And the reason is, Hinduism has been defined by Sikh institutions as precisely this, the worst and weakest to prove it's illegitimacy as a spirituality compared to Sikhism. Now if we went to the average Gurdwara, and picked out the average committee member and let his own views and practices prove to the world what Sikhism really teaches, we would all be ashamed. And it would have no honesty and be no evaluation of what Sikh religion actually believes. So why insist on the most inaccurate definition of Hinduism?

In like manner, why are Sikhs always trying to drag Hindu religion down to the lowest common denominator to make it indistinguishable from the worst excesses or blatant misunderstanding of it's own teachings? This can't be accidental, it's too pervasive culturally.

And the answer is... because that is the way Singh Sabha reform and Sikh institutions have defined it. It has become part of the self-definition Sikhs have about themselves, that compared to Hinduism's worst excesses, we believe...x,y,z things. So the blatant misrepresentation of Hindu religion based on worst excesses and distortions of own teachings is almost necessary to prop up the myth of Sikh independance. It goes right to the crux of what Singh Sabha was hiding, and that is, the historical truth that Sikh religion was never intended to be a new religion at all, but was a Vaishnava reform movement like Sufism and Kabirpanthis and Ramanandis which are all derivative.


That is why the incredible hostility Sikh institutions have traditionally had about giving an honest definition of what Hinduism really is. They would begin to lose the safety of their distinctiveness. It isn't organizations like Arya Samaj or RSS that threaten the Sikh identity. The threat to independant Sikh identity is hidden in these false overgeneralizations about what Hindu religion is, and hence, what Sikh religion is not.


-Vaishnavism also breaks with meaningless rituals elevating brahminism
-Vaishnavism worships only the One nirgun God through the sargun avtaaras
-Vaishnavism believes the Ajooni can be incarnated as an avtaar to save the world
-Vaishnavism originated to reform brahminism and caste injustices, starting free kitchen langar-style halls within their temples and promoting seva to the poor.
-Vaishnavism believes bhakti, Naam jap, sankirtan and Gur-deekhya are the path to mukti

Besides, even if there is similarity between one religion and the other--so what?After all, truth is one--so there are bound to be similarities.

There is a difference between similarities, such as saying: "God is love." "God is truth" "God is peace." And every religion worth the name will say that. The false claim that Sikhism is like Hinduism only because of superficial similarities is hollow, because Sikhism in it's core essential teachings IS Vaishnavism. There is almost word for word parallel between what Gurbani teaches and what Vaishnava Upanishads teach. Not in a few subjects, but in every subject that is. And indeed the similarities are not even similar but exact definitions which have profound complexity.

So if we want to say, Sikhism is like Islam in the way Sikhism is like Vaishnavism, how close would we be?

Islam teaches:
One true monotheistic God, a separate being from his creation, and opposing false gods.

Sikhism and Vaishnavism teach:
One all-pervading nirguna which manifests as creation through sarguna, starting from the Trimurti and expanding to all creation. Yet the creation in Advaistist definition is also an illusion, and really only the One nirguna, because everything is Him. There are no false gods, there are just lesser lights who are not completely merged in the nirguna, and cannot approach His limits. The creation is made from the pakriti of three gunas, rajo, tamo, sato and also Maya, which is the force of illusion, and duality where we perceive in pairs of opposites: male, female, hot, cold, pleasure, pain. But in truth, reality is ONE. Duality of separation is illusion which the brahmgyani (Brahma Jnana) no longer perceives.


Islam teaches:
One eternal Heaven for the righteous
One eternal Hell for the unbelievers


Vaishnavism and Sikhism teach:
uncountable realms, deva lokas, hells according to karam and state of consciousness which are all impermanent. Reincarnation as a cycle of transmigration through many life forms, including animal or spiritual beings which are impermanent and a source of suffering. That there are 8.4 million species of incarnation. That the ultimate mukti is not to attain a deva loka, or heaven realm, but merging with the One nirgun God which is true Reality not subject to impermanence. Also accepting the teaching of jivanmukti, that the human body is priceless because mukti can be obtained with it, even in this very life.


Islam teaches:
God is not the same as His creation. God cannot be born. God cannot die. God cannot be an incarnation, or avtaar. God's message is communicated to the world through "prophets" who are individual men that can make mistakes.


Sikhism and Vaishnavism teach:
God is pervading within all His creation as an actual conscious presence, and indeed is the true underlying identity of all the countless forms. Through the sargun manifestation, the nirguna experiences what all creation experiences. Being born, dying are only illusions of Maya. In reality, nothing is born, and nothing dies. There is only the One, Paramatma, Parabrahm, Maha-Vishnu, Ishwara, nirguna which is totality encompassing all that sarguna is. To liberate the darkness and suffering of sansaara world, the God incarnates as an avtaar (complete sargun manifestation of God's Light) from age to age to set Dharma on it's throne again, as a path of liberation which falls off it's seat in various yugs due to the increasing corruption of the time cycle. In truth, Vaishnavism and Sikhism do not believe in a monotheistic God in any Abrahamic sense, but in a pantheistic all-pervading Oneness which directs and controls the universe.


Islam teaches:
Salvation is based on believing in the message of Prophet Mohammed, believing in the One True God, renouncing all false beliefs, false forms of worship and false gods and believing in God's holy book, the Koran.


Sikhism and Vaishnavism teach:
That in the age of Kaliyuga, all legs of religion have become corrupted. The only boat of mukti is believing in a Satguru who teaches how to Jap the Names of God as Naam Gurmantra, and sing kirtan with bhakti, intense devotion, which dissolves ego and cultivating bairaag and tyaag, dhyaan and gyaan. The sound current of the Naad vibrates through Shabad, so the very utterance of the Name is power of Gurmantra, the intonation, the sound current cleanses the thoughts, the chakrs, the karma, the defilements and panj bhootas so as to allow samaadhi consciousness, opening of dasm duar to have Darshan of the sargun God (the nirguna is imperceivable and formless), and ultimately mukti through merging into the fourth state of transcendant consciousness, Turiya, which is beyond the three gunas and Maya.


To further distinguish Vaishnavism from brahminism:
Vaishnavism started as a reform movement against the corruption of brahmin elitism and caste system teaching that anyone who was devoted to God is a brahmin, that caste varna sytem has to do with spiritual states, not hereditary limitations. Vaishnavism appealed to the lower classes and Ram Namis were called the untouchable religion, because they accepted for membership any caste, women and even Muslims.

Vaishnavism teaches not to worship the demi-gods because the highest you can obtain is the particular deva loka. Vaishnavism teaches the demi-gods do not know the limits of the nirguna. Vaishnavism teaches that brahmins and pandits who only read about religion but don't practice or live it, in non-hypocritical ways are no path of mukti but have lost the way. The scriptures cannot give you mukti, only bhakti, naam jap and sankirtan can lead to liberation because these practices cleanse the inner nature of defilements and unite, are a form of Raja Yoga to unite with the One true God, who is both nirgun and sargun.

Vaishnavism teaches that warriors who defend the Dharma are a path to mukti. The purpose of the 10 avtaars of Maha-Vishnu (the All-pervading) act as warriors, to slay demonic powers which perpetuate injustices and keep the world in darkness. So there is no discrepancy between Sikhism as a warrior path, and original Vaishnav teachings, which can be found throughout Shri Dasm Granth as examples of warrior spirit for the Khalsa.

Vaishnavism in not worshipping demi-gods but worshipping only the One True nirguna as manifested in sargun form through the das avtaaras, jap and sing kirtan as Names of God those names and titles of the Das Avtaars: Ram, Har Krishna, Gobinda, Gopala, Vasudeyva, Vishnu, Narasingh, Kalki.

I would also like to add that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj has clearly stated:

SWAYYA

*Pae gae jab ta tumra tb ta khu anth tara nehee aneeyo. Ram rahim Puran kuran, anak kahy ma'th eek na maneyo. Simrat shastr badh sabh bohu padh kahaa ha'm ek na janeyo. Sri aspanh kirpa tumree karh maa na kheyo sab tohay bkhanyo. (30)

* O God ! Since I have held your feet, none other has entered my vision; Ram, Rahim, Puranas, Quran and many others recite, but I don't believe in even one. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe many mysteries, but I don't recognise even one of them; O Sword-wielder God! All this I write, with your blessings, is not what I know but what you have shown me. ~Benti Chaupi

Guru is talking about being merged with the totality of the nirguna which is beyond every sargun form. The reason Naam is from names of sarguna is because nirguna is formless and has no Name. No human mind can chant what is beyond language, so the human mind cannot approach the limits of the mysteries of God in nirgun form.

Guruji is beyond sarguna, because He has grasped the totality. If we took this tuuk to interpret Guruji is saying He doesn't believe in Ram, for example, then why does Gurbani contradict and say the Name of God is Ram, Ram? So the meaning must be deeper. Where it says Guruji doesn't believe in the Shastras, Vedas, Puranas and Quaran, is because Guruji has transcended the limits, the scriptures cannot describe the limits. A person would finish himself before he could describe the limits of nirgun God, so we know Guruji is talking about the nirguna here.

So this particular tuuk from Benti Chaupai is showing us Guruji has merged into the infinite consciousness which is without form and beyond every scripture of every tongue. He is speaking from a state of exaltation, or nirbikalpa samadhi, the samadhi which is beyond expression and thoughts. So there is no scripture which could possibly describe the experience Guruji is having. He is beyond even humanity. There is nothing in the world, not even the world's greatest scriptures could come close, they are like nothing compared to the vision of the God.

ਏਵਡੁ ਊਚਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
eaevadd oochaa hovai koe ||
Only one as Great and as High as God

ਤਿਸੁ ਊਚੇ ਕਉ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
this oochae ko jaanai soe ||
can know His Lofty and Exalted State.

ਜੇਵਡੁ ਆਪਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪਿ ਆਪਿ ॥
jaevadd aap jaanai aap aap ||
Only He Himself is that Great. He Himself knows Himself.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥੨੪॥
naanak nadharee karamee dhaath ||24||
O Nanak, by His Glance of Grace, He bestows His Blessings. ||24||

ਬਹੁਤਾ ਕਰਮੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
bahuthaa karam likhiaa naa jaae ||
His Blessings are so abundant that there can be no written account of them.
~SGGS Ji p. 5​

ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਬੇਦ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥
simrith saasath baedh vakhaanai ||
They recite the Simritees, the Shaastras and the Vedas,

ਭਰਮੇ ਭੂਲਾ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
bharamae bhoolaa thath n jaanai ||
but deluded by doubt, they do not understand the essence of reality.
~SGGS Ji p. 114​

ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥
vaedh kehehi vakhiaan anth n paavanaa ||
The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.

ਪੜਿਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਬੁਝਿਐ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥
parriai naahee bhaedh bujhiai paavanaa ||
Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed.

ਖਟੁ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੈ ਭੇਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵਣਾ ॥
khatt dharasan kai bhaekh kisai sach samaavanaa ||
There are six pathways in the Shaastras, but how rare are those who merge in the True Lord through them.

ਸਚਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਾ ॥
sachaa purakh alakh sabadh suhaavanaa ||
The True Lord is Unknowable; through the Word of His Shabad, we are embellished.

ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਬਿਸੰਖ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥
mannae naao bisankh dharageh paavanaa ||
One who believes in the Name of the Infinite Lord, attains the Court of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 148​

But by the same token, we can't just oversimplify and jump to thre conclusion, Oh, Guruji has attained the Supreme, and the sarguna and the scriptures cannot compare and therefore are meaningless to a Sikh. And the reason is, we have to consider the balance of Gurbani. Gurbani never contradicts. Only our understanding creates conflicts where there are none.

ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖਨ ਇਉ ਕਹਿਆ ॥
saasath sinmrith baedh beechaarae mehaa purakhan eio kehiaa ||
The great men have studied the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas, and they have said this:

ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਜਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਸੂਖੁ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਲਹਿਆ ॥੧॥
bin har bhajan naahee nisathaaraa sookh n kinehoon lehiaa ||1||
"Without the Lord's meditation, there is no emancipation, and no one has ever found peace."||1||

ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਕੀ ਲਖਮੀ ਜੋਰੀ ਬੂਝਤ ਨਾਹੀ ਲਹਰੇ ॥
theen bhavan kee lakhamee joree boojhath naahee leharae ||
People may accumulate the wealth of the three worlds, but the waves of greed are still not subdued.

ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਥਿਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ਫਿਰਤੋ ਪਹਰੇ ਪਹਰੇ ॥੨॥
bin har bhagath kehaa thhith paavai firatho peharae peharae ||2||
Without devotional worship of the Lord, where can anyone find stability? People wander around endlessly. ||2||

ਅਨਿਕ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਕਰਤ ਮਨ ਮੋਹਨ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਤ ਨ ਕਾਮਾ ॥
anik bilaas karath man mohan pooran hoth n kaamaa ||
People engage in all sorts of mind-enticing pastimes, but their passions are not fulfilled.

ਜਲਤੋ ਜਲਤੋ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਬੂਝਤ ਸਗਲ ਬ੍ਰਿਥੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੩॥
jalatho jalatho kabehoo n boojhath sagal brithhae bin naamaa ||3||
They burn and burn, and are never satisfied; without the Lord's Name, it is all useless. ||3

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਮੀਤਾ ਇਹੈ ਸਾਰ ਸੁਖੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
har kaa naam japahu maerae meethaa eihai saar sukh pooraa ||
Chant the Name of the Lord, my friend; this is the essence of perfect peace.
~SGGS Ji p. 215​

So Gurbani shows the Vedas, Shastras and Simritis correctly teach that liberation can only come by meditation, which Guruji tells us chanting the Name is supreme. So it cannot be right that Shastras, Vedas and Simritis are absolutely useless, and also what they teach is correct. If they teach something correct, they have a use. But simply teaching is not equivalent of being able to give experience of the God.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਾਧ ਮਗ ਸੁਨਿ ਕਰਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਨ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
baedh puraan saadhh mag sun kar nimakh n har gun gaavai ||1|| rehaao ||
This mind listens to the Vedas, the Puraanas, and the ways of the Holy Saints, but it does not sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, for even an instant. ||1||Pause||

ਦੁਰਲਭ ਦੇਹ ਪਾਇ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਿਰਾਵੈ ॥
dhuralabh dhaeh paae maanas kee birathhaa janam siraavai ||
Having obtained this human body, so very difficult to obtain, it is now being uselessly wasted.
~SGGS Ji p. 220​

Because Guru is Satguru, He is able to give us the correct teaching. It's not by pondering holy scriptures that one obtains liberation, but by singing the praise of the God. Again, this does not say holy scriptures are useless. It clarifies that substituting knowledge of holy scriptures for dhyaan and Simran, you miss the boat of mukti.

ਸਾਧੋ ਰਾਮ ਸਰਨਿ ਬਿਸਰਾਮਾ ॥
saadhho raam saran bisaraamaa ||
Holy Saadhus: rest and peace are in the Sanctuary of the Lord.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕੋ ਇਹ ਗੁਨ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
baedh puraan parrae ko eih gun simarae har ko naamaa ||1|| rehaao ||
This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, that you may meditate on the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 220​

How can it be, if Gurbani doesn't contradict itself, that we read Benti Chaupi to say Vedas and Puranas are like nothing, Guruji doesn't believe in even one, yet Gurbani shows in many places the wisdom and the blessing of the Vedas and Puranas? So to reconcile the contradiction, we have to understand that liberation and knowledge of the limits of nirguna cannot come from scriptures. It can't come from being a pandit or scholar and knowing all these things, because they do not know the limits. YET...

and here is the key, yet, they teach us about what we can know. They teach us we can meditate on the Name of the Lord to obtain liberation. Nowhere is Gurbani saying the Vedas and Puranas are false or speak wrongly. Gurbani says they do not know the limits of nirguna. So it has to be read in context of the actual meaning, otherwise we ourselves create contradictions in Gurbani where there are none. For the mind which is merged and surpasses the limits of all the scriptures and word definitions of human knowledge, these things are like nothing. But Gurbani says the good thing is they teach how to meditate on God and chant the name of God to obtain liberation. And this would also explain the history that Guruji studied and translated with pandits Sanskrit and the Hindu scriptures into Panjabi so the average Panjabi could understand teachings that had been limited exclusively to those who could read Sanskrit. Why would Guruji have done this if these Vedas and Puranas were completely useless? So you see, it's important to read in context and not take a single tuuk or pauri and create a whole new definition. We know that the spiritual experience itself is beyond what is written about spiritual experience. But there is a difference from interpreting and implying uselessness or falsehood to something when the definition given is simply that it cannot even touch the limits.

ਗੋਤ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਸੋਧਿ ਕੈ ਪੜੈ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਭਾਈ ।
got atdaarah sodhi kai parhai puraan atdaarah bhaaee|
Thoroughly understanding the eighteen gotras, sub castes, the gurmukhs go through the eighteen puranas.

ਉਨੀ ਵੀਹ ਇਕੀਹ ਲਘਿ ਬਾਈ ਉਮਰੇ ਸਾਧਿ ਨਿਵਾਈ ।
unee veeh ikeeh|aghi baaee umaray saadhi nivaaee|
Jumping over nineteen, twenty and twenty-one.

ਸੰਖ ਅਸੰਖ ਲੁਟਾਇ ਕੈ ਤੇਈ ਚੌਵੀ ਪੰਜੀਹ ਪਾਈ ।
sankh asankh|utaai kai tayee chauvee panjeeh paaee|
They make the number of twenty-three, twenty-four and twenty-five meaningful.

ਛਬੀ ਜੋੜਿ ਸਤਾਈਹਾ ਆਇ ਅਠਾਈਹ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ।
chhabee jorhi sataaeehaa aai atdaaeeh mayli milaaee|
In the name of twenty-six, twenty-seven, twenty-eight they meet the Lord.

ਉਲਘਿ ਉਣਤੀਹ ਤੀਹ ਸਾਧਿ ਲਘਿ ਇਕਤੀਹ ਵਜੀ ਵਧਾਈ ।
ulaghi unateeh teeh saadhi|aghi ikateeh vajee vadhaaee|
Crossing twenty-nine, thirty and reaching thirty-one, in their heart they feel blest and delighted.

ਸਾਧ ਸੁਲਖਣ ਬਤੀਹੇ ਤੇਤੀਹ ਧ੍ਰ ਚਉਫੇਰਿ ਫਿਰਾਈ ।
saadh sulakhan bateehay tayteeh dhr chaudhayri dhiraaee|
Accomplishing the thirty-two saintly characteristics, like Dhru they make thirty-three crore gods and goddesses shake and revolve around (them).

ਚਉਤੀਹ ਲੇਖ ਅਲੇਖ ਲਖਾਈ ॥੧੫॥
chauteeh|aykh alaykh|akhaaee ॥15॥
Touching thirty-four they realize the Invisible Lord i.e. the gurmukhs going above all the numbers get exhilerated in the love of Lord who is beyond all the counts.
~Vaar 7 Pauri 15 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji​

ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੈ ਜੀਉ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
niragun saragun har har maeraa koee hai jeeo aan milaavai jeeo ||1||
My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 98​

So lets consider the example of Ram.

*Pae gae jab ta tumra tb ta khu anth tara nehee aneeyo. Ram rahim Puran kuran, anak kahy ma'th eek na maneyo. Simrat shastr badh sabh bohu padh kahaa ha'm ek na janeyo. Sri aspanh kirpa tumree karh maa na kheyo sab tohay bkhanyo. (30)

* O God ! Since I have held your feet, none other has entered my vision; Ram, Rahim, Puranas, Quran and many others recite, but I don't believe in even one. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe many mysteries, but I don't recognise even one of them; O Sword-wielder God! All this I write, with your blessings, is not what I know but what you have shown me. ~Benti Chaupi

We know that chanting and singing the praise of the Name of the Lord is the path to liberation.

ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਤੂੰ ਕਾਦਿਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਾਕੀ ਨਾਈ ਪਾਕੁ ॥
sabh thaeree kudharath thoon kaadhir karathaa paakee naaee paak ||
Everything is in Your Power, Lord; You are the all-powerful Creator. Your Name is the Holiest of the Holy.
~SGGS Ji p. 464​

So what can it mean that Guruji does not believe in Ram? The Lord is formless and countless are the forms which are like dust. So we know that this whole world is only one of countless millions. They are realms even higher than this one, and even those do not know the limits.

ਸੁਰ ਤੇਤੀਸਉ ਜੇਵਹਿ ਪਾਕ ॥
sur thaetheeso jaevehi paak ||
Three hundred thirty million gods eat the Lord's offerings.

ਨਵ ਗ੍ਰਹ ਕੋਟਿ ਠਾਢੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ॥
nav greh kott thaadtae dharabaar ||
The nine stars, a million times over, stand at His Door.

ਧਰਮ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਹਾਰ ॥੨॥
dhharam kott jaa kai prathihaar ||2||
Millions of Righteous Judges of Dharma are His gate-keepers. ||2||
~SGGS JI p. 1163​

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥
naanak nirabho nirankaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||
O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

ਕੇਤੀਆ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥
kaetheeaa kannh kehaaneeaa kaethae baedh beechaar ||
There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

ਕੇਤੇ ਨਚਹਿ ਮੰਗਤੇ ਗਿੜਿ ਮੁੜਿ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਤਾਲ ॥
kaethae nachehi mangathae girr murr poorehi thaal ||
So many beggars dance, spinning around to the beat.

ਬਾਜਾਰੀ ਬਾਜਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਆਇ ਕਢਹਿ ਬਾਜਾਰ ॥
baajaaree baajaar mehi aae kadtehi baajaar ||
The magicians perform their magic in the market place, creating a false illusion.

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੀਆ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਆਲ ਪਤਾਲ ॥
gaavehi raajae raaneeaa bolehi aal pathaal ||
They sing as kings and queens, and speak of this and that.

ਲਖ ਟਕਿਆ ਕੇ ਮੁੰਦੜੇ ਲਖ ਟਕਿਆ ਕੇ ਹਾਰ ॥
lakh ttakiaa kae mundharrae lakh ttakiaa kae haar ||
They wear earrings, and necklaces worth thousands of dollars.

ਜਿਤੁ ਤਨਿ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸੇ ਤਨ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਛਾਰ ॥
jith than paaeeahi naanakaa sae than hovehi shhaar ||
Those bodies on which they are worn, O Nanak, those bodies turn to ashes.
~SGGS Ji p. 464​

But is this saying Ram and Krishna are worthless the way we interpret this? Is this saying Gurbani teaches not to believe in Ram or Krishna as if they are mere mythology or ritualistic superstition?

ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੋਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
gur bin mokh mukath kio paaeeai ||
Without the Guru, how can anyone be emancipated or liberated?

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਿਉ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥
bin gur raam naam kio dhhiaaeeai ||
Without the Guru, how can anyone meditate on the Lord's Name?

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਤਰਹੁ ਭਵ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੯॥
guramath laehu tharahu bhav dhuthar mukath bheae sukh paaeiaa ||9||
Accepting the Guru's Teachings, cross over the arduous, terrifying world-ocean; you shall be emancipated, and find peace. ||9||

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਿ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੇ ॥
guramath kirasan govaradhhan dhhaarae ||
Through the Guru's Teachings, Krishna lifted up the mountain of Govardhan.

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਇਰਿ ਪਾਹਣ ਤਾਰੇ ॥
guramath saaeir paahan thaarae ||
Through the Guru's Teachings, Rama floated stones across the ocean.

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥੧੦॥
guramath laehu param padh paaeeai naanak gur bharam chukaaeiaa ||10||
Accepting the Guru's Teachings, the supreme status is obtained; O Nanak, the Guru eradicates doubt. ||10||
~SGGS Ji p. 1041​

Gurbani says that Ram and Krishna had the ability to achieve great things because they accepted the Guru's teachings. So clearly they are not worthless or incapable of performing great things. Gurbani clearly says they did great things because of Guruji's teachings, so they were acting through the power of Guruji. If they were acting through the power of Guruji's teachings then they were Gurmukhs. And if they are Gurmuks, then they are liberated. And if they are liberated, they have surpassed even the devas.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||
Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God.

ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥
dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa ||
The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being.

ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥
dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa ||
According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons.

ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||
Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits.

ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa ||
He established His throne on the principles of Truth.

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥
dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa ||
He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view.
~SGGS Ji p. 1279​

If we carefully look at what Gurbani is teaching, it has nothing to do with what many Sikhs are implying about mythologies or rituals or superstition or worthlessness or even disbelief. If Guruji did not believe in the devas, why does Gurbani say the nirguna created them? If we are supposed to disbelieve them, it means they aren't real. But Gurbani is saying the God created the devas and brought the avtaaras into being. So clearly there is a purpose. What is to disbelieve? Gurbani says the avtaaras killed the demons by God's hukam. That was their purpose.

Gurbani establishes that liberation is not found through memorizing and reading the scriptures, but by putting into practice what they teach, dhyaan and simran. Gurbani establishes that the Name of the Lord is the highest, because through the Name we reach the actual presence through darshan of the Lord and merging.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਨਾਮੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੮॥੧੨॥੧੩॥
naanak guramukh naam dhhiaaeae naamae naam samaavaniaa ||8||12||13||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs meditate on the Naam; through the Naam, they merge in the Naam. ||8||12||13||
~SGGS i p. 117​

But chanting the Name alone is not enough to achieve mukti.

ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਕਹਿਐ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
raam raam sabh ko kehai kehiai raam n hoe ||
Everyone chants the Lord's Name, Raam, Raam; but by such chanting, the Lord is not obtained.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਤਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥
gur parasaadhee raam man vasai thaa fal paavai koe ||1||
By Guru's Grace, the Lord comes to dwell in the mind, and then, the fruits are obtained. ||1
~SGGS Ji p. 491​

Guruji's grace is needed for the Naam to be effective in bringing us to liberation. And what is the Name of the God?

ਮੰਤ੍ਰੰ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੰ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਪੂਰਨਹ ॥
manthran raam raam naaman dhhyaanan sarabathr pooraneh ||
Through the Mantra of the Name of the Lord, Raam, Raam, one meditates on the All-pervading Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 1357​

ਗੁਰਮੁਖੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਦਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
guramukhae guramukh nadharee raam piaaraa raam ||
As Gurmukh, the Gurmukh beholds the Lord, the Beloved Lord.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
raam naam piaaraa jagath nisathaaraa raam naam vaddiaaee ||
The Name of the Lord, the Emancipator of the world, is dear to him; the Name of the Lord is his glory.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਲਘਾਈ ॥
kalijug raam naam bohithhaa guramukh paar laghaaee ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name is the boat, which carries the Gurmukh across.
~SGGS Ji p. 443
​

Now, how do we reconcile the tuuk in Benti Chaupi which says Guruji does not even believe in Ram, and Gurbani which says the Gurmukh chants and meditates on the name of Ram as the name of the Lord? We know that Gurbani doesn't contradict itself, only we people who are basically foolish make contradictions where there are one.

So in this instance, many Sikhs will claim, "But that isn't Rama Chandra the avtaara. Thats just the nirguna. Raam means the nirguna. Guruji doesn't believe in Rama Chandra. And this would seem to resolve the conflict and make sense. But is it true?

ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
raam raam karathaa sabh jag firai raam n paaeiaa jaae ||
The entire world roams around, chanting, ""Raam, Raam, Lord, Lord"", but the Lord cannot be obtained like this.

ਅਗਮੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਅਤਿ ਵਡਾ ਅਤੁਲੁ ਨ ਤੁਲਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
agam agochar ath vaddaa athul n thuliaa jaae ||
He is inaccessible, unfathomable and so very great; He is unweighable, and cannot be weighed.

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਲਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
keemath kinai n paaeeaa kithai n laeiaa jaae ||
No one can evaluate Him; He cannot be purchased at any price.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿਆ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
gur kai sabadh bhaedhiaa ein bidhh vasiaa man aae ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, His mystery is known; in this way, He comes to dwell in the mind.

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਿ ਅਮੇਉ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
naanak aap amaeo hai gur kirapaa thae rehiaa samaae ||
O Nanak, He Himself is infinite; by Guru's Grace, He is known to be permeating and pervading everywhere.

ਆਪੇ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਆਪੇ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਆਇ ॥੧॥
aapae miliaa mil rehiaa aapae miliaa aae ||1||
He Himself comes to blend, and having blended, remains blended. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 555​

So it does seem to be the fact, that Ram in Gurbani refers to the One nirgun Lord. So what about the other Rama Chandra avtaar? Who is he? Is he nothing? Is he dust? Is he not to be believed? Doesn't Gurbani say he is like a Gurmukh who follows the Guru's teachings? Doesn't Gurbani say the hukam of God brought the avtaars to kill the demons? What does that mean?

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
kabeer raam kehan mehi bhaedh hai thaa mehi eaek bichaar ||
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
soee raam sabhai kehehi soee kouthakehaar ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
kabeer raamai raam kahu kehibae maahi bibaek ||
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
eaek anaekehi mil gaeiaa eaek samaanaa eaek ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||
~SGGS Ji p. 1374
​

So careful reading of Gurbani shows that truly japping Naam is not idol worshipping the sargun form of Rama Chandra King of Avodhya, son of Dasrath which is dust, but the Jyot of the All-pervading within him. This also explains where Guruji says don't worship me, but Gurbani equates the Guru with God. So we see the distinction is being made between the sarguna, which is within the sansaar and subject to the three gunas and duality and Maya, and the nirguna which is the One true Lord.

So what is the purpose of any Ram Chandra at all? What is the purpose of any physical form of Guru at all? Why not have a religion like the Islamics which only teaches about some nirguna and not complicate with all these sargun forms and avtaaras? What's the purpose if they're nothing, if they're not to be worshipped or believed?

ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥
dhhann dhhann gur dhhann janam sakayathh bhala jag ||
Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

ਪਾਤਾਲ ਪੁਰੀ ਜੈਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਬਿ ਜਨ ਕਲ ਵਖਾਣਿਓ ॥
paathaal puree jaikaar dhhun kab jan kal vakhaaniou ||
Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥
har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||
You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390​

So to fully resolve the seeming inconsistency, we have to take into account the vast differences between the sargun and the nirgun. One has a limit and the other does not. One dies and fades to dust and the other is unborn. So to worship the physical forms of Guru would be foolish because these have faded away and don't even exist anymore. This is like an empty idol, it can't do anything for you if you pray to it. It isn't the personality or limitations of any sargun form which we put our belief in, because these are all impermanent. And so Gurbani teaches the Sikh to make the distinction between the form and the formless. While we recognize that the form was brought into being by the formless, it is the formless One which we worship, and not the form.

Gurbani teaches that the formless One is pervading within the forms. Who is the "You" Gurbani is talking about when describing the incarnations, the avtaaras? The "You" is the formless One manifesting in sansaara to be Guru to the world, Shabad-Jyot to liberate the world and right the Dharma and kill the demons. The forms will die. But the formless One who pervades within them can never die, and so this is an eternal message to the world. We don't worship a dead Rama Chandra, but the Shabad-Jyot which is unchanging and eternal king. So Naam Gurmantra only has power when it is distinguished as Name of the All-pervading formless One and not some name of a dead physical form.

The nirgun is permeating the sargun. The sargun is brought into being by the hukam of the nirgun. And the sargun is the nirgun Himself.

ਏਕਹਿ ਸੂਤਿ ਪਰੋਵਨਹਾਰਾ ॥
eaekehi sooth parovanehaaraa ||
He strung it upon His one thread.

ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੰ ॥
bhinn bhinn thrai gun bisathhaaran ||
He created the diverse expanse of the three qualities.

ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਤੇ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਰੰ ॥
niragun thae saragun dhrisattaaran ||
From formless, He appeared as form.

ਸਗਲ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥
sagal bhaath kar karehi oupaaeiou ||
The Creator has created the creation of all sorts.

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਮਨ ਮੋਹੁ ਬਢਾਇਓ ॥
janam maran man mohu badtaaeiou ||
The attachment of the mind has led to birth and death.

ਦੁਹੂ ਭਾਤਿ ਤੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ ॥
dhuhoo bhaath thae aap niraaraa ||
He Himself is above both, untouched and unaffected.

ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
naanak anth n paaraavaaraa ||2||
O Nanak, He has no end or limitation. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p.250​

ਅਨਿਕ ਰੰਗ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਇਕ ਰੰਗਾ ॥
anik rang niragun eik rangaa ||
He manifests many forms, while still unmanifest and absolute, and yet He has One Form.
~SGGS Ji p. 803​

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 174​

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥
kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||
Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥
pehil purasaabiraa ||
First of all, there was only the Primal Being.

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥
athhon purasaadhamaraa ||
From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥
asagaa as ousagaa ||
All that is, is His.

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਬਾਗਰਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਪਿੰਧੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਗਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
har kaa baagaraa naachai pindhhee mehi saagaraa ||1|| rehaao ||
In this Garden of the Lord, we all dance, like water in the pots of the Persian wheel. ||1||Pause||

ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਗੋਪੀ ਜੰਨਾ ॥
naachanthee gopee jannaa ||
Women and men both dance.

ਨਈਆ ਤੇ ਬੈਰੇ ਕੰਨਾ ॥
neeaa thae bairae kannaa ||
There is no other than the Lord.

ਤਰਕੁ ਨ ਚਾ ॥
tharak n chaa ||
Don't dispute this,

ਭ੍ਰਮੀਆ ਚਾ ॥
bhrameeaa chaa ||
and don't doubt this.

ਕੇਸਵਾ ਬਚਉਨੀ ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
kaesavaa bachounee aeeeae meeeae eaek aan jeeo ||2||
The Lord says, ""This creation and I are one and the same.""||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 693
​

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji

 

[jagmeet]

Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji,

Please answer a few questions:-When was Vaishnavite reform movement started? Who started it?Are there any strictly Vaishnavite Hindus around--if yes, do they not worship any of the devis and devtas or any of the sargun roops,or follow caste system or other rituals?Again if your answer is yes, how many are they in number?There are other questions too--who has given these definitions--Vaishnavite Hinduism or other forms of Hinduism?Are these well defined demarcations/schools accepted by all?What texts do the Vaishnavs follow and which ones they reject?I guess your answer is that they follow the Vedas--have you read the Vedas yourself?Are you sure that Vedas don't profess worship of devis and devtas,but only the nirgun God?I am asking this because I read somewhere that Vedas mention worship of Indra and Agni devtas.

Anyway,whatever be your answers, I still don't understand what is to be gained by proving(which you haven't done) that teachings of one religion are identical to that of another---even if they are,so what?

Let me also add that my beliefs (and that of others born much after) are not fashioned by the Singh Sabha movement(though I don't have anything against it from the little that I know).

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh Philosophy Network asks that the diversity of religious points of view be respected. Respecting the identity of Sikhism, its history, and its unique philosophical and ethical beliefs must likewise be respected. After 24 hours of serious discussion by forum leaders, our opinion was that respect for Sikh identity had not been maintained. Our decision therefore was to close the thread.

Be cautioned that wherever and whenever in the forum this occurs again, same thread will be closed without notice.

Sat Sri Akaal,
Antonia