Hair And General Sikh Philosophy Study

[Archived_Member4]

ya... who said?

It wasn't established on customs but its a custom now.
Custom is
[SIZE=-1]-accepted or habitual practice [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]-a specific practice of long standing [/SIZE]

someone needs a dictionary...:shifty:


get some rest... I never said it is established on customs; stop accusing me of things i never said!!! :}:

a specific practice of long standing

By this definition every religion is a ritual and even spirituality is a ritual by this definition because all of them have been practiced for a long time.

Bhagat ji the Amrit Ceremony is not done by habit or established by customs or done because of tradition. It is done because the Sikh can get on the right path. Khalsa Panth meaning way of the pure. So then they can live a pure and poius life.

Here's another explaination why it is not a ritual:

Does Amrit Sanskar constitute ritualism?
One who performs this external gesture without inner commitment to the ideas being expressed under philosophy of Amrit, is performing ritual. Without practice of the teachings in life and without cleaning inside and outside, such like initiation will be termed as ritualism. The Amrit Sanskar ritual is not external. The cleansing of the soul can only be done internally by the subject himself.
Amrit Sanskar is not ritualism, when novice promises and submits to the will of Gurmat, leads clean, pure and pious life according to concepts and philosophy of the Guru and emerges from the ordeal endowed with a totally different being from that which he possessed before his initiation.

 

[BhagatSingh]

By this definition every religion is a ritual and even spirituality is a ritual by this definition because all of them have been practiced for a long time.

Ok that's a more general definition, I agree.

Bhagat ji the Amrit Ceremony is not done by habit or established by customs or done because of tradition.

Yes it is and we assign the following meaning to it:

It is done because the Sikh can get on the right path. Khalsa Panth meaning way of the pure. So then they can live a pure and poius life.

Here's another explaination why it is not a ritual:

Does Amrit Sanskar constitute ritualism?
One who performs this external gesture without inner commitment to the ideas being expressed under philosophy of Amrit, is performing ritual.

Actually that would be a hollow or a blind ritual. We know amrit sanchar is a ritual because of its definition: Ritual - [SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies [/SIZE][/SIZE](which you seemed to have missed somehow :shifty

Without practice of the teachings in life and without cleaning inside and outside, such like initiation will be termed as ritualism.

No even then its still a ritual. Ritual without meaning is a different category.
Another definition of a ritual:
-[SIZE=-1]A ritual is a set of actions, often thought to have symbolic value, the performance of which is usually prescribed by a religion or by the traditions of a community by religious or political laws because of the perceived efficacy of those actions [/SIZE]

The Amrit Sanskar ritual is not external.

:rofl!!: You just said its a ritual. And in fact, it is external. The ceremony is not performed internally! :crazy:

The cleansing of the soul can only be done internally by the subject himself.

This line on its own is great! This is exactly what the message of SGGS is.

Amrit Sanskar is not ritualism, when novice promises and submits to the will of Gurmat, leads clean, pure and pious life according to concepts and philosophy of the Guru and emerges from the ordeal endowed with a totally different being from that which he possessed before his initiation.

See above. It seems as if you do not understand what rituals are. You confuse the terms "blind ritual" with "ritual".

 

[BhagatSingh]

BTW enough discussion on Amrit Sanchar; make a new thread if you wish to discuss just that.
Let's continue our discussion on Hair and General SIkh Philosophy.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Quote:
The Amrit Sanskar ritual is not external.
:rofl!!: You just said its a ritual. And in fact, it is external. The ceremony is not performed internally! :crazy:

That is not my definition of the Amrit Sanskar and also they are only calling it a ritual if the the teachings are not pracitced.

Quote:
Here's another explaination why it is not a ritual:

Does Amrit Sanskar constitute ritualism?
One who performs this external gesture without inner commitment to the ideas being expressed under philosophy of Amrit, is performing ritual.
Actually that would be a hollow or a blind ritual. We know Amrit sanchar is a ritual because of its definition: Ritual - [SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies [/SIZE][/SIZE](which you seemed to have missed somehow :shifty

See that is a really vague definition of a ritual they have done it so that every religious ceremony is called a ritual. The same thing could be said about laws made by governments. or the way a science experiment is done all i have to change at the end of this definition is conducted in a science experiment and then every science experiment will be called a ritual. The prescribed procedure for conducting science experiment and there you have it science experiment are rituals with no meanings.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Read what i have to say about Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam

Quote:
Quote:
Singh ji, Khalsa is a discipline, it is not to be confused with [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhi[/URL]. [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhi[/URL] is all about SGGS. No reahat maryada, no dasam Granth, no sarbloh granth, no <insert name of another granth here> granth, simply SGGS.
BTW your question is absurd. You are implying that [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Gobind Singh ji's hukam was referring to ALL [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhs[/URL].

[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Gobind Singh Sahib ji made two orders that day one for the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] and the other for the Khalsa. The one for the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] said Hukam: A [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] must keep hair and not smoke tobacco. A [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] must not have sexual relationship outside the marital bond and cannot eat the flesh of an animal killed slowly in the Muslim way or in any sacrificial ceremony.

These were given to the Sikhs and Khalsa Panth but the Khalsa Panth also has to go with a different Hukam with these included. Also Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said every Sikh of his must take Amrit when ready to be part of the Khalsa Panth.

 

[BhagatSingh]

See that is a really vague definition of a ritual they have done it so that every religious ceremony is called a ritual.

Well, duh! Every religious ceremony is a ritual. And again you totally ignored the other definition I provided. But that definition is not vague, notice how it says "the prescribed way" of doing the ceremony. there is a prescribed way of making amrit!

[SIZE=-1]A ritual is a set of actions, often thought to have symbolic value, the performance of which is usually prescribed by a religion or by the traditions of a community by religious or political laws because of the perceived efficacy of those actions [/SIZE]

Amrit is a ritual! get over it! stop trying to say that the definition is wrong. again, you are confusing the terms "blind ritual" and "ritual". They are two separate things.
Ritual has meaning, but when that meaning is ignored and/or the ritual is done JUST for the sake of doing the ritual, its called blind ritual.
[SIZE=-1]Blind - not based on reason or evidence[/SIZE]
how many other rituals are in our "religion" besides amrit sanchar?

The same thing could be said about laws made by governments. or the way a science experiment is done all i have to change at the end of this definition is conducted in a science experiment and then every science experiment will be called a ritual. The prescribed procedure for conducting science experiment and there you have it science experiment are rituals with no meanings.

You compltely ignored both definitions.
let me remind you again:
[SIZE=-1]Ritual
-the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies
[/SIZE]Science experiments are not religious ceremonies. Stop twisting the definition!

Although I agree, using the more general definition ([SIZE=-1]any customary observance or practice) it could be called a ritual. You can call brushing your teeth in the morning a ritual as well. however, we are not using this definition, we are using the other two.
[/SIZE]

 

[BhagatSingh]

Read what i have to say about Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam

http://www.sikhism.us/Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji made two orders that day one for the http://www.sikhism.us/Sikh and the other for the Khalsa. The one for the http://www.sikhism.us/Sikh said Hukam: A http://www.sikhism.us/Sikh must keep hair and not smoke tobacco. A http://www.sikhism.us/Sikh must not have sexual relationship outside the marital bond and cannot eat the flesh of an animal killed slowly in the Muslim way or in any sacrificial ceremony.

These were given to the Sikhs and Khalsa Panth but the Khalsa Panth also has to go with a different Hukam with these included. Also Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said every Sikh of his must take Amrit when ready to be part of the Khalsa Panth.

Right...
that's why he put those hukams in SGGS. But somehow they vanished... it's all making sense now!

 

[Archived_Member4]

Right...
that's why he put those hukams in SGGS. But somehow they vanished... it's all making sense now!

Bhagat ji, When i first asked you if Sikhs need Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to be one with God you say NO, but then say after a couple of post 'lets first define one with God.' A person before answering such a important question actually reads the question then answers. But you did not do that and its clear you did not read the question because later you say, 'lets define one with God.' Now your back to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji; saying i only follow what is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. If one follows Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji then that person needs Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to find the direction to be one with God. Bhagat ji if you, a Sikh do not need Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, then why are you a Sikh; Sikh meaning, a disciple of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji; meaning, a follower of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

 

[Archived_Member5]

I think the otherwise intelligent Bhagat Singh loses ground when he is driven by anger and wrathfulness. American culturalism hasn’t aided his cause to virtuosity at all. A culture clash causing hypocritical thinking seems to be the problem. It is a common problem for devotees of the religion of proud warriors and upholders of honour nurtured by a culture that neither recognises nor endorses not, the virtues, honour and essential humility required by its advocates and adherents.

I too am at times am so afflicted. It can become a battle of anger and retributional rebuttal of the, maybe badly communicated words of others, especially seniors or those for whom English is not the mother tongue or first language..

Forgive him, in an age of spiritual darkness many find themselves unable to retain propriety and composure making them susceptible and exposed to Kam krodh, moh, lobh, abhimaan ... etc and other terrible sins I cannot quiet recall ...

Peace, Love and Prosperity Be Upon You All.

 

[spnadmin]

Jeetijohal ji

Please do not resort to judging the spiritual status of other forum members in discussion. This has a negative impact on discussion in general. Disagreement is expected in a forum. Debate the issue at hand and not the personalities of other forum posters. Thank you and this is a caution to you and others posting on this thread. aad0002

 

[BhagatSingh]

Thank you Aad Ji!

reply to Singh ji:

Bhagat ji, When i first asked you if Sikhs need Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to be one with God you say NO, but then say after a couple of post 'lets first define one with God.'

So did we define "being one with God"?

A person before answering such a important question actually reads the question then answers.

Yes.

But you did not do that and its clear you did not read the question because later you say, 'lets define one with God.'

No that does not mean I did not read the question, It means I don't know what exactly you mean by "becoming one with God". My definition could be very different from yours. So I suggested that we should first define the term before going any further.

If I had not answered, you would have complained about that. So I answered as well as asking you for your understanding.

Now your back to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji; saying i only follow what is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. If one follows Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji then that person needs Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to find the direction to be one with God. Bhagat ji if you, a Sikh do not need Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, then why are you a Sikh; Sikh meaning, a disciple of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji; meaning, a follower of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

I don't need to discuss who I am. This thread is not about me. Sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Yes.


Quote:
But you did not do that and its clear you did not read the question because later you say, 'lets define one with God.'

No that does not mean I did not read the question, It means I don't know what exactly you mean by "becoming one with God". My definition could be very different from yours. So I suggested that we should first define the term before going any further.

If I had not answered, you would have complained about that. So I answered as well as asking you for your understanding.

Bhagat ji, if you look back at what you said first and said after it is clear you said i a Sikh do not need to follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. and after answering the question you questioned what does it mean to be one with God, but after answer 'No' to the original question not before or same time. Bhagat ji you are making up excuses such as ' If i had not answered, you would have complained about that.’ This is just a poor excuse to wisel your way out of a saying no to the original question.

I am done discussion if you want to follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or not that is your choice; only wanted to clear up what you have said on this issue.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Back to the hair discussion you keep presenting the Bhagat Kabir ji Solake to say it does not matter if a Sikh cuts hair or keeps it. At the time of Bhagat Kabir ji keeping of hair and cutting hair was a ritual in Hinduism. Bhagat Kabir ji was against rituals to which he says duality exists in these people because of keeping long hair and shaving it is just a ritual to them. This is not true in Sikhi, keeping of the hair is not a ritual. Hair is sacred in Sikhi and one must keep it uncut. Once again people misuse this shabad to prove it does not matter if a Sikh cuts hair. But it does matter and this shabad does not prove a Sikh can cut hair.

Then he says that when you are in love, things like long and short hair don't matter. [25]

I disagree here, when a person is in love with the one lord you are not blind anymore meaning duality such as carrying out rituals (a ritual when the Sadhus kept long hair but did not know why they kept it just let it grow, get all tangled up and used to meditating on the lord) do not exist in you, see the duality here. Then he present a example of these duality that people have just kept long hair or shaved it without reason meaning it’s a ritual. Everyday people get up cut their hair or leave it as is not knowing why they do it then meditate on the lord is a duality that existed back in Bhagat kabir ji’s time and I can’t say it has stopped now. But a Sikh who keeps his hair uncut does not fall into this duality. A Sikh keeps it as God intended it to be(keeps it long, washes it, and combs it) and to do otherwise as in cutting it would be just a ritual. If cutting hair is not a ritual then what are the reasons for cutting it?

 

[Archived_Member5]

The individual’s first and primary love is for his Lord Supreme God. This love itself is the flame kindling love for the parents, family and world. Upon this love is based a love for wisdom, peace and humanity. One chooses with discretionary discrimination ones life partner and mate with the blessings of one’s brethren and family honour in mind.

As one honours The Lord one honours ones parents no matter how humble or simple in thinking they may be. Maturity is an understanding of our parents, they are children and liable to fallibility at times, but we forgive any shortcomings as we expect God to forgive us. Only in rare exceptional cases are parents immoral and unworthy. and blessed are we for having decent loving parents who have devoted their lives to our upbringing and care.

This is likened to being one with the Lord, understanding thyself and the spiritual cognitive interaction in the world about us. The cutting or maintaining of hair is a religious discipline. One our forefathers have dictated and we adhere to as a matter of honour. It is well known devout Sikhs are shorn of their tresses to diminish their standing and power. The mark of a good Sikh is a Singh Sardar and a lady with bound hair.

Alas not all are so fortunate to be graced with this crowning glory.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Back to the hair discussion you keep presenting the Bhagat Kabir ji Solake to say it does not matter if a Sikh cuts hair or keeps it. At the time of Bhagat Kabir ji keeping of hair and cutting hair was a ritual in Hinduism.

Read the article by Raj Kumar Singh I presented earlier.

Bhagat Kabir ji was against rituals to which he says duality exists in these people because of keeping long hair and shaving it is just a ritual to them.

No Bhagat Kabir Ji wasn't against rituals at all. I would definitely like to see quotes here.

This is not true in Sikhi, keeping of the hair is not a ritual. Hair is sacred in Sikhi and one must keep it uncut.

I'll believe it when you provide some quotes from gurbani supporting that.

Once again people misuse this shabad to prove it does not matter if a Sikh cuts hair.

Noone is misusing this shabad except for you! You fail to understand and instead of trying to understand it, you keep twisting it!

But it does matter and this shabad does not prove a Sikh can cut hair.

And no other shabd proves that Sikhs have to keep their hair uncut, therefore, according to this shabad it doesn't matter if you "keep long hair or shave your head bald".

I disagree here, when a person is in love with the one lord you are not blind anymore meaning duality such as carrying out rituals (a ritual when the Sadhus kept long hair but did not know why they kept it just let it grow, get all tangled up and used to meditating on the lord)

Dude "tangled hair" called dreadlocks, is the natural state of hair. sadhus keep those dreadlocks because they denounce worldly things like grooming that hair. read up on dreadlocks. Buddhist monks shave it, again for the same reason.

do not exist in you, see the duality here. Then he present a example of these duality that people have just kept long hair or shaved it without reason meaning it’s a ritual.

Without reason means blind, it does not mean a ritual. Get a dictionary or use the definitions I provided.

Everyday people get up cut their hair or leave it as is not knowing why they do it

a BIG generalization and a BIG assumption.

then meditate on the lord is a duality that existed back in Bhagat kabir ji’s time and I can’t say it has stopped now.

right...

But a Sikh who keeps his hair uncut does not fall into this duality.

:rofl!!:
A sikh who automatically assumes he will not fall into duality jsut because he keeps hair, has already fallen in.

A Sikh keeps it as God intended it to be(keeps it long, washes it, and combs it) and to do otherwise as in cutting it would be just a ritual.

Sure, like we know what God intended. If God did not intend haircuts then we would not see them, THAT is how powerful God's will is! waheguru

If cutting hair is not a ritual then what are the reasons for cutting it?

 

[BhagatSingh]

The individual’s first and primary love is for his Lord Supreme God.

Yes would like to add the love for God should come before everything. Then :
ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
कबीर प्रीति इक सिउ कीए आन दुबिधा जाइ ॥
Kabīr parīṯ ik si▫o kī▫e ān ḏubiḏẖā jā▫e.
Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥
भावै लांबे केस करु भावै घररि मुडाइ ॥२५॥
Bẖāvai lāʼnbe kes kar bẖāvai gẖarar mudā▫e. ||25||
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||

:ice:

 

[Archived_Member4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singh
If cutting hair is not a ritual then what are the reasons for cutting it?


Bhagat ji you have an answer for the whole response but this question so just answer this question then i can give you a complete rebuttal on your asnwers.

 

[BhagatSingh]

You are asking the wrong guy.
HAHAHA rebuttal... you are too funny!

 

[Archived_Member5]

Fidelity, waffa se manzil payenge. Fidelity to The One Father, Religion and Cause is the main driving point, not the actual rituals and rites cited.

Duality arises when we seek fulfilment in any other doctrine but ours, what so that religion maybe, it is a matter of fidelity, the courage of one’s convictions to remain true to a path set down by our Guru’s. One errs from the path when one is driven by duality. Ritualistic Sense is subjective. Indeed dreadlocks are customary and obligatory in faiths citing grooming as being egotistic. Buddhists indeed shave their head and eliminate all matter between mind and universality being hair. Sikhs keep their hair unshorn.

It is an issue of mindset. All three faiths and values systems are correct. Grooming is essential for all things in life. Vanity, ego and conceit are not. It is mans path to attain the intellectual maturity to discern between maintaining and respecting one’s mind, body, spiritual temple without endangering ones balanced perception by obsessional preoccupation with the exterior facade without due cleansing and daily purification of the internal bio system governed by the devout and focussed mind.

Fidelity is the Principal and Primary Edict.

Wisdom, Love, Beauty and Peace To You ...

 

[BhagatSingh]

ਬੰਕੇ ਬਾਲ ਪਾਗ ਸਿਰਿ ਡੇਰੀ ॥
बंके बाल पाग सिरि डेरी ॥
Banke bāl pāg sir derī.
You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head.
ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਭਸਮ ਕੀ ਢੇਰੀ ॥੩॥
इहु तनु होइगो भसम की ढेरी ॥३॥
Ih ṯan ho▫igo bẖasam kī dẖerī. ||3||
But in the end, this body shall be reduced to a pile of ashes. ||3||
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