Has Www.sikhsangat.com Been Infested By Intolerant Neo-fascists?

[kds1980]

SPN is by far the most maturest discussion forums on Sikh's and Sikhism.......sikh-history.com used to be good but seems to be very quiet.

What you find with Sikh Sangat is that one or two people are prolific posters there. The average age of people there is about 13, and many of them actually know each other in real life. So what they are in effect doing is publicising converstaions they may have privately on the internet......

Many people here are mature adults and do not have hours and hours to spend posting messages on the internet like 13 year olds....

In order to keep a forum alive new members should join and contribuite to forum from time to time.i have seen many sikhi forums which are dead but had good discussions earliar

Also i don't think that average age is 13 on sikhsangat.its too small to have mature discussion.

 

[drkhalsa]

Discusion is going nice !

about the quantity and qualty I like the arguments fronm the sides and I have reached a conclusion thta both are required . either of them will not do

I n my experience both can be achieved just by removing the barriers we have been creating that prevented many spityual seekers from coming in cont\ct with Core of sikhism so being more open and receptive will do I think so rather than appearing too much radicle and fundamentalist. its just my opinion so just take it lightly .



ONE IMPORTANT THING AND ADVICE : I THINK WE HAVE DISSCUSED OTHER FORUMS HERE ENOUGH AND MORE WE DO SO IS JUST INVITING TROUBLE AND ALSO DOES NOT SEEMS NICE AS SPN IS ALSO FORUM AND FORUM BASHING JUST DOES NOT SEEMS RIGHT TO ME ANYWAYS WE HAVE ALREADY GOT THE POINT EVERYBODY WS TRYING TO MAKE . IHOPE YOU WILL AGREE WITH ME ON THIS


Thanks

Jatinder Singh

 

[kds1980]

about the quantity and qualty I like the arguments fronm the sides and I have reached a conclusion thta both are required . either of them will not do

I totally agree with you on this.

 

[TGill]

Converting others to sikhism was never even done at Guru's time and should not be done now as well. My point is not when masands got corrupted (which happened during Guruji's time only) my point is that they did get corrupted even before Guru Granth ji bacame guru. Plus there is no one who can send true masands now.

I don't know why we underestimate hinduism as religion.

now to your second question that if all hindu's become sikhs.then spreading of gurmat will be much easier.chances are many true gursikhs will emerge from them.

The quality people even in hinduism are nothing but sikhs !

Secondly, why do we think Hindus won't think themselves superior the way we are thinking ourselves here. The result will be just pure poison.


- Well the message of the Gurus is misinterpreted I think. They wanted people to rise spiritually, they did not want to make empires of sikhs.

I am really sorry to say but in this political world to keep your spitual path alive you desperately need quantity

Spiritual path has no religion first of all. Who can add qualitative quantity I'm not sure but yes just adding quantity without bringing quality will only kill this path for future generations. Look at christianity, look at islam.. Do you think they were so fanatic from the very beginning when Jesus was alive or when prophet was in his physical form.

Other thing is diamond itself attracts not coal. Be diamond then people will follow as simple as that.

 

[TGill]

about the quantity and qualty I like the arguments fronm the sides and I have reached a conclusion thta both are required . either of them will not do

Khalsa veer ji, you are right both are required but which path is taken to reach there is what matters.

Path1 : Be so like our Guruji have told us to be that people see us and think that we want to be like them. This is what happened at Guruji's time.
Path2: Add more and more people in the name of one religion and attcahed politics that it breed pure poison and fanaticism, killing this path for future generations.

 

[Randip Singh]

ONE IMPORTANT THING AND ADVICE : I THINK WE HAVE DISSCUSED OTHER FORUMS HERE ENOUGH AND MORE WE DO SO IS JUST INVITING TROUBLE AND ALSO DOES NOT SEEMS NICE AS SPN IS ALSO FORUM AND FORUM BASHING JUST DOES NOT SEEMS RIGHT TO ME ANYWAYS WE HAVE ALREADY GOT THE POINT EVERYBODY WS TRYING TO MAKE . IHOPE YOU WILL AGREE WITH ME ON THIS

Sorry my fault........Iwas trying to find out if things had changed there........sorry for bashing!

 

[kds1980]

Converting others to sikhism was never even done at Guru's time and should not be done now as well. My point is not when masands got corrupted (which happened during Guruji's time only) my point is that they did get corrupted even before Guru Granth ji bacame guru. Plus there is no one who can send true masands now.

I am not saying that people should be forcibily converted to sikhism.but its a fact that people embraced sikhism at the time of guru's.guru's send preachers to spread gurmat
gurmat was spread by guru's

I don't know why we underestimate hinduism as religion.

its a big controversial topic.hinduism is not a religion like sikhism ,islam or christianity.it has thousands of different path in it.

Spiritual path has no religion first of all. Who can add qualitative quantity I'm not sure but yes just adding quantity without bringing quality will only kill this path for future generations. Look at christianity, look at islam.. Do you think they were so fanatic from the very beginning when Jesus was alive or when prophet was in his physical form.

you are wrongly interpretting my message i am just saying that both quality and quantity are necessary.as far as islam is concerned again a controversial topic.anti islamic scholars like Ali sina claim that islam was fanatic from begining.

Other thing is diamond itself attracts not coal. Be diamond then people will follow as simple as that.

sorry it happens in theory or in films not in real world.today christianity and islam control
more than 100 countries while religions like hinduism,buddhism,parsis lost their countries to them.if your logic is true then christianity and islam are diamonds while hinduism,budhdhism,parsi religion are coal

 

[drkhalsa]

Randip Singh ji

That was just reminder to everybody nothin specific ..but yes I know how we some time have to dissucss such things which are ususally essential but contraversial.. .. thanks for your post.



Kds and Gill ji

Nice disscusion going on but still you both seems to disagree on opinion and its ok in discusion

One more thing I have observed in Punjab is rise of Christian missionary
recent visist to Dist Moga ( Punjab) I found a very big Church and big School attached and many locals told me that Christian are doing very agressive preaching and also in the teaching classes of preacher thy are mostly taught how to undermine other prevalent religion indirectly by pointing out their deficiencies . Similar preaching centres have come up all over punjab in Kapurthala, jallandhar .

Also very good point baout the christian missionary is that in my Home town Amritsar many top rated schools are christian school and any sensible parents would want to send there kid to one of them although there is very good sikh school also ( SGHPS where I studied with many branches) so basically I mean to say theu are doing preety well on the preaching front .

About Numbers of sikhs in my understanding yes for sikhs it should be worrying thing as can become limiting factor for the sikh culture to exist .

I agree that we should not be worried about number and always on the toes to make it number one just like Christianty and islam is trying to do But sikhs number is already to less and more over its on downward trend . many reason .

1. Family control program has been too much sucessful here in this part of India which has further decreased the fertility of punjabis as whole ( and 80 % of sikh population in India )

2. Keeping with modern culture many of our kids and friends are finding difficult to cope with Sikh Rehit maryada so they are slowly drifting away

3 other preaching factions like Christianity , Dear sacha soda , dera Beas and many other have done much to rip off the sikh culture away from amny of us .

You just keeping in view such Things I tend to belive that as we are alreday small in number and still relatively decreasing in number so Number should worry us . well Still I dont knoe what is right thing ..

 

[TGill]

I am not saying that people should be forcibily converted to sikhism.but its a fact that people embraced sikhism at the time of guru's.guru's send preachers to spread gurmat
gurmat was spread by guru's.

People embraced sikhism, it is a fact I agree but again they were lead by example and not by hollow preaching. So coming back to same point, who can lead by example now. We need to drastically change ourselves to lead by example. A change always start from few, and once started quality people will then embrace sikhism for sure. On the other hand if hollow preachers will start spreading gurmat and will try to convert people to sikhism by luring innocents, well thats what mughals did in history. Do we really want to tread mugals path or rather our guru's path afterall a sikh is one who learn from his guru.

sorry it happens in theory or in films not in real world.today christianity and islam control
more than 100 countries while religions like hinduism,buddhism,parsis lost their countries to them.if your logic is true then christianity and islam are diamonds while hinduism,budhdhism,parsi religion are coal

Christianity and islam control more than 100 countries, I think this number is even more but my point is not that. The point is what are these countries doing. Most of them are controlled by fanatics, people don't even have basic freedom. The ones which are progressive most of the people in those countries are not religious at all but are highly materialistic. Whatever I'm saying is not a fairy tale, I think it is totally practical. It is natural tendency to follow the light in darkness so lets begin the charity at home be the light the true gurus wanted us to be. To convert others and gain quantity and then move on sikh path is ridiculous concept as far as my understanding goes.


As far as coming of sikh missionaries is concerned, the fault lies in us. The deteorating quality is the reason. When sikh leadership is so poor who can show the true path to the common people. I truly think that the need of the hour is to get up and follow what Gurus have taught us.
It is not a fairy tale but very much practical. It can start at the grassroot level of each village and town. We just need to be more progressive at personal levels.

 

[kds1980]

People embraced sikhism, it is a fact I agree but again they were lead by example and not by hollow preaching.

People embraced sikhism by example and by preaching.All types of sikhs existed .please do not think that all sikhs were true gursikhs at the time of guru.

We need to drastically change ourselves to lead by example. A change always start from few, and once started quality people will then embrace sikhism for sure.

Agreed with it that we need to change ourself first.but for political side quantity is also necessary.Let us assume if 1000 gursikhs are leading life as an example in pakistan
and after watching them 10,000 muslims wants to embrace sikhism then would the muslim pakistani government allow them to leave islam and join sikhism.The answer is no.This world is political and without political side of your spiritual will also die.

well thats what mughals did in history. Do we really want to tread mugals path or rather our guru's path afterall a sikh is one who learn from his guru.

Mughals forcibly converted people I am not at all saying that we should forcibly convert people to sikhism again you are wrongly interpretting my post.

Christianity and islam control more than 100 countries, I think this number is even more but my point is not that. The point is what are these countries doing. Most of them are controlled by fanatics, people don't even have basic freedom

If we don't care about our quantity then these will also take over us and then preaching and embracing sikhism is also going to be banned.The biggest example of religion that never cared about quantity is the parsi religion.In terms of material wealth parsis are richest religion on earth but there religion is going to be extinct.At the start of century
there were 120000 parsis were living in india while now there are approximately only 70,000 are living in india.while other religion incraesed 4 to 5 times there population actualy declined.

To convert others and gain quantity and then move on sikh path is ridiculous concept as far as my understanding goes.


As far as coming of sikh missionaries is concerned, the fault lies in us. The deteorating quality is the reason. When sikh leadership is so poor who can show the true path to the common people.

agreed quality should be improved but do not underestimate the power of quantity
without quantity quality cannot survive.

 

[TGill]

People embraced sikhism by example and by preaching.All types of sikhs existed .please do not think that all sikhs were true gursikhs at the time of guru.

No one embraces other religion by preaching, any person need incentive to change and it is a simple law of human psychology. Only true gursikhs told people the true way of life (now called sikhi) which people embraced cos they could see the advantage (incentive) through the example which these gursikhs presented.

after watching them 10,000 muslims wants to embrace sikhism then would the muslim pakistani government allow them to leave islam and join sikhism

They won't allow in any case even if we use political stunts. But if we lead by pure example these 1000 muslims will know a right path internally if not externally.

Mughals forcibly converted people I am not at all saying that we should forcibly convert people to sikhism again you are wrongly interpretting my post.

Forcible convertion is just a single side. They converted others by luring others using money, lands and women as well. Will sikh start converting others using such tactics or by misguiding innocents cos if one doesn't know truth himself he can only misguide.

At the start of century
there were 120000 parsis were living in india while now there are approximately only 70,000 are living in india.while other religion incraesed 4 to 5 times there population actualy declined.

I think you are presenting numbers in wrong way. This is not an example of non-preaching but a perfect example of quality deterioration. The only need of the hour is lead by example the quantity will follow for sure. Incentive for change is the biggest truth about human nature.

 

[kds1980]

No one embraces other religion by preaching, any person need incentive to change and it is a simple law of human psychology. Only true gursikhs told people the true way of life (now called sikhi) which people embraced cos they could see the advantage (incentive) through the example which these gursikhs presented.

You are right preaching was not the only reason for people to embrace sikhism.there were
several reasons for which people joined sikhism.some joined sikhism to enhance there caste status,while others joined sikhism because muslims were quite hostile towards hinduism and for protection they joined sikhism.so please don't think that the only reason people joined reason was because they saw quality people.Preaching,quality people,fear of muslims,caste, place in sikh army etc were factors behind embracing sikhism.

They won't allow in any case even if we use political stunts. But if we lead by pure example these 1000 muslims will know a right path internally if not externally.

pakistan was just an example to show you power of quantity.its a lost case now.
people cannot embrace sikhi where guru nanak dev ji was born.Tommorow if fanatic hindu's ,muslims,or christian will take over punjab then the same thing is also going to happen.

I think you are presenting numbers in wrong way. This is not an example of non-preaching but a perfect example of quality deterioration. The only need of the hour is lead by example the quantity will follow for sure. Incentive for change is the biggest truth about human nature.

It is an example of non preaching.Quality wise you cannot say that parsis are bad.infact
there are no fanatics in parsis.they never came in conflict with other religions.may be they are not as much spiritual.

as far incentives are concerned you are right but many people do get attracted to religion
because of its simple teachings.

 

[dalsingh]

Dal veerji,

i know there were excesses done by Police and the legal system has been slow, but this does not mean that there is persecution of one community


and terror is not of police, terror is of losing one's brother/sister to terrorists, who bombed in public places, shot openly, intruded people's house at night, even forcibly taking money at gun point( they called it Kar Seva ... LOL )


I know i am going to get the reason of Black Cats, and yadda yadda, religiousness of Khalistanis....

but thank you, if believing in India as my country and its constitution is a delusion, i am happy doing so

I personally feel you are perfectly entitled to your beliefs about India. I just also feel that those who feel otherwise are also entitled to their opinion without the threat of death and torture over their heads.

I don't condone any killing of innocent people for the record, by whatever side. Those claiming to be doing so in the name of the SIkh cause are significantly worse than those on the sarkaar side. A Singh should damn well know better. But as you know Amar, it is difficult to determine how much of the random killings were done by Black Cats and how many by genuine Khalistanis.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

I personally feel you are perfectly entitled to your beliefs about India. I just also feel that those who feel otherwise are also entitled to their opinion without the threat of death and torture over their heads.

I don't condone any killing of innocent people for the record, by whatever side. Those claiming to be doing so in the name of the SIkh cause are significantly worse than those on the sarkaar side. A Singh should damn well know better. But as you know Amar, it is difficult to determine how much of the random killings were done by Black Cats and how many by genuine Khalistanis.

Correct Dal veer ji

so finally we see each other's view point correctly.

without having correct numbers/details we must no blindly accpt the propoganda machines, of any type.


but on your point <<I just also feel that those who feel otherwise are also entitled to their opinion without the threat of death and torture over their heads. >>

i feel that a person living "in" India must abide by its laws and respect the country's sovereignity.

Else getting a passport and immigrating is very easy nowadays.

 

[dalsingh]

Correct Dal veer ji

so finally we see each other's view point correctly.

without having correct numbers/details we must no blindly accpt the propoganda machines, of any type.


but on your point <<I just also feel that those who feel otherwise are also entitled to their opinion without the threat of death and torture over their heads. >>

i feel that a person living "in" India must abide by its laws and respect the country's sovereignity.

Else getting a passport and immigrating is very easy nowadays.

Sikh sovereignty is also a real concept that was earned through sacrifice and blood and then lost. I'm not surprised people yearn for it. I am one of them. That doesn't make me people like me a terrorist, the world (including India) needs to understand that.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

yes

you are entitled to yearn fr sikh soverignity.

But if it undermines sovereignity of India, every indian is entitled to consider the person an enemy of the nation, and the act, an act of sedation.

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear Dalsingh ji

Its not me who has closed the thread But May be AMAN ( administrator) due to obvious reason2

1.The discussion you want to do was not related to topic

2.The topic itself was not appropiate about disscusing oyher forum

well you can continue the disscusion in the new thread you have started and we can name it appropiately as currently it says AMAR SANGHERA

Plz Suggest a name and we can change it

Thanks


Jatinder Singh

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear Dalsingh ji

Its not me who has closed the thread But May be AMAN ( administrator) due to obvious reason2

1.The discussion you want to do was not related to topic

2.The topic itself was not appropiate about disscusing oyher forum

well you can continue the disscusion in the new thread you have started and we can name it appropiately as currently it says AMAR SANGHERA

Plz Suggest a name and we can change it

Thanks


Jatinder Singh