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indespairx

SPNer
Oct 9, 2010
2
0
Hi Ive been with my boyfriend for 6 months now, he is sikh and Im a white english girl!

We had plans to marry and start our own lifes together, but he has just told me that his family have arranged a marriage for him. His family know he is in a realationship with an english girl, and have told him to make his choice. I know he does not want to go through with it but does not want to bring shame to the family! He is the oldest boy and his dad is the oldest in the family. To me I will do anything in my will power to allow us to be together.

I want to know how forbidden it really is for us to be together. He is a jud sikh? Not sure whether I have spelt that right so I am sorry if I havent.

How can I prove to his family I am serious about starting a life with him?

Thanks
 

Harvir007

SPNer
Aug 22, 2010
71
80
28
Leicester, England
You also must remember that in the Sikh code of conduct: ''A Sikh must marry a Sikh'' So I don't mind that you are white but im just saying, it might be harder than you think to start a life with your partner.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
44
INDIA
think it is not a big problem, jud sikhs(jatt sikhs actually) are usually very liberal but they are most difficult as well.if you really want to marry this guy u will have to make some effort try to learn

Ms baath ji

In which world you are living.Jatt sikhs are known to be very much caste conscious .They don't even want to marry their children into Other castes of Punjabi sikhs and you are saying that Jatt sikhs are liberal
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
44
INDIA
everyone wants to marry their children in their own caste its not just jatts but as far as i have seen jatts are usually more liberal but i also added they can be the most difficult as well

Its not true .In urban India Sikh families don't even care about the caste of Girl or Boy.They just want Boy or Girl to be sikh.Jatts whether Hindu or sikhs are Known for being too much caste conscious.

I am sure You have heard about disputes between jatt sikhs and other lower caste sikhs in Punjab.Jatts are several times blamed for being not treating lower caste sikhs well.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
44
INDIA
you just said urban india and the jatt& low caste feuds that you talk about started in rural areas (as far as i know)there is always a difference in urban and rural mind set and i agree rural jatts can be really difficult


Well You can visit jattworld.com and discuss this issue with jatt sikhs who clearly says that inter caste marriage is strict no no for them.All of them are from urban background mostly from Canada ,UK.I have nothing more to say
 
Sep 25, 2010
11
9
i know all you are talking about and all about those die hard jatts and i know its nothing but just a phase in their life i being a jatt very well aware of that but considering those handful of people in jattworld you should not be making views about everyone
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
44
INDIA
i know all you are talking about and all about those die hard jatts and i know its nothing but just a phase in their life i being a jatt very well aware of that but considering those handful of people in jattworld you should not be making views about everyone

I am not making my views just on based on Jattworld.At the time of Partition
,master Tara singh a Khatri was Undisputed leader of sikhs.Today to be a chief minister of Punjab You must be a Jatt sikh.Its a harsh truth but we have to accept reality.Majority of Honour killings in sikh community are committed by jatts.

Please don't think I am degrading Jatts.I have full respect for their bravery and dedication to sikhism.But all castes in sikhs in sikhism have their minus points and Jatts being considered as liberal is something that is very hard to accept.
 

bscheema

SPNer
Jan 4, 2010
122
132
38
nthing personal .........
Mr kanwardeep singh ji ..y u visited jattworld., jst becoz u wnt to create controversy
(Master Tara Singh ) nt nice pillar u used to support ur statemntswordfight
 

bscheema

SPNer
Jan 4, 2010
122
132
38
sorry the actual problem i forget white girl ..here is advice from me if u both are agree thn go for court marriage rest all on god ...
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
44
INDIA
nthing personal .........
Mr kanwardeep singh ji ..y u visited jattworld., jst becoz u wnt to create controversy
(Master Tara Singh ) nt nice pillar u used to support ur statemntswordfight

Balwinder singh ji

Why is it wrong to visit jattworld? I also visted Hinduunity,ummah,stormfront
etc.Now does it mean I want to create controversy with everybody.

As far master Tara singh is concerned I used his statement because It is well known fact that upto that time caste was not much a factor among sikhs While deciding who is going to be leader of Sikhs

BTW do you believe I wrote something wrong something which is false ,if it is so then please refute it.
 

jane2010

SPNer
Sep 29, 2010
17
1
Hello indespairx, may i ask you were in the u.k are you??
i'am in a simular situation myself it sucks!!! may i ask you a couple of questions?? What has ure boyfriend said about this all? has he told you that he only wants you? how sure are you he will choose you? My boyfriend is also a (jatt sikh) im not sure what that means.... this must be a very scary/sressfull time for you both. i really hope it works out for you both you deserve to be together, we can't help who we fall in love with dont ever appolgise for that! i'm sure his parents will love you as you are showing intrest by learning punjab, i also want to learn punjab, i would like to get some advice where i can do this? and whats the best way?

all the best
jane cheeringmunda
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
jane2010 and indespairx jios,

In your threads, and in several others here at SPN, the question of an inter-caste marriage with a Jatt or a relationship between a Jatt and a non-Sikh, has come up. In fact it is frequent enough to be a trend.

The issue is not small because of the history of Jatts within the Sikh panth is unmistakable. Both of you say you know almost nothing about Jatts. So I will begin a thread on Jatts and it will be there for reference purposes. Fair warning: the content will be argued with passion.

I think that you should google "Jatt" and read many of the sites that come up. There will be contradiction and controversy in each of them. There is controversy and contradiction in everything I have read about Jatts.

Controversy is not going to go away anytime soon. You will have to sort out the information and come to your own conclusions.

While I am starting that thread, you may want to read the conversation at this link to get a flavor of the intense emotions that surround Jatt identity.

A young Jatt woman states that she is in love with a Punjabi Sikh, but he is not a Jatt and her family is against the relationship. Most people in the thread recognize that caste should not matter in Sikhi. Even for those who know this in reality being Jatt may still matter to them more than we believe it should.

http://www.clubvibes.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=369912

If you wish to be accepted into a Jatt family, it makes sense to educate yourselves. But don't expect your experience to be clear cut on the issues.
 
Last edited:

Guara

SPNer
Oct 12, 2010
2
5
YES, it is possible for a Jatt Sikh to marry a white English person. How do I know? Because I did and I did it the harder way … English boy and Jatt Sikh girl.

But you have to be realistic about your situation and your chances. And realistic about what your REAL problems are and how to face them. Love will get you to the starting line, but you need “a plan” to end up at the finish line married.

The Chances –

You have to be realistic … a less than 10% of being successful.

Your chances would be better if he were the youngest in the family; less expectations than on the eldest, better if he is less “successful” in education or profession, because of reduced expectations. Better if he has been divorced (because he is already done his duty of one arranged marriage and it didn’t work). Double check if he has been divorced, often a guy will get married in his late teens/early twenties and then divorced, this would help you a lot. You can say he tried arranged marriage it didn’t work etc. etc.. Also the older he gets the more family expectations fall from a “Jatt Sikh girl” to “high caste Sikh girl” to “a good Sikh girl” to a “nice Desi girl” to a “Indian looking girl” to finally “oh my god, I hope he is not gay, let him marry ANY girl”.

Because your chances are so small, this means to be successful you have to be willing to do WHATEVER it takes, if your not forget it, you can not win. Because you are facing the fiercest warriors on the face of this planet … and that is just the women.

The Jatt Sikh caste thing IS an issue, not to make light of it, but it is NOT your real problem, your real problem is his family in general and his MOTHER specifically !!

If you can’t win her over to your side, your chance of success drops to less than 2%.

This next part is hard to hear, but you need to see things from his family’s point of view in order to know what you are facing and how to fix it. The family, especially his mother, has spent a lifetime raising her son to the best of her ability and trying to make him into the finest person that she could. She has high hopes for him to be a well educated successful professional who is good looking, well mannered, respectful and a positive contribution to his family, culture, language, religion and people. Whereas you are the “fling” before real marriage, who we tolerated initially because good Sikh girls don’t “date” but now you are getting serious with our son and we better marry him off quick, before you steal him from us, never to be seen again.

If he marries you, we fear we are not only losing our eldest son, who we spent decades on raising and growing, but our family, culture, language, religion and potential grand children who we have already booked a seat in medical college for. Your going to just come in here at the last minute and steal him from us and we will lose him forever.

How do you overcome all that? How will you convince them, that all that is NOT true? You need “a plan”!

The Plan –

First let me say, that for the plan to be successful, it has to be sincere, “faking it” will not do, you have to commit to completely and “mean it” not in some white English superficial way, but deeply and sincerely with all your love and all your heart. It is a hard plan, but go big or go home girl, your playing in the Premier league now.

1. You have to convert to Sikhism as YOUR religion (I warned you this was hard).

2. You have to “try” to learn the language, you don’t have to be fluent.

3. You can not do or say anything that is disrespectful to his family or critical of his mother, not ever. You need to convince them of your kindness and goodness and however unreasonable or mean they may be to you, you must realize they are acting out of fear, like a dog biting you and not let it effect you. You have to rise above it all. This is really hard to do when they are being nasty, but this to shall pass.

4. You need an ally or support person in his family who likes you and who will fight for you. Your best bet is a strong elderly female person who is respected in the family and known for being both liberal-minded and outspoken – a matriarch if you will. Just your BF won’t be enough. You have to speak with her of your true intentions AND your ability to make him happy and then if you feel she knows you, ask her for her “BLESSING and support”. If she blesses you (pats you on the top of the head and says you have her “blessing” your chances go up to 50%.

5. You have to sit down with your BF and help him grow a spine. A TRUE Sikh will stand up and fight for what they believe in, the Guru’s even died for what they believed in (Guru Teg Bahadur). Your BF needs to stand up for you. When the time is right, you are going to have to ask him if he is a ”stand up guy” or not. If the first word out of his mouth is “respect”, then you have to face up to the fact that he is a “coward” and your going to have to do all the fighting for your marriage. Give him a couple of your “bangles” and let him hold onto your “chunny” (scarf that goes with a Punjabi suit) while you do the fighting. But try to make him strong, support him and give him courage.

6. NO trips to India! This one you have to put your foot down. No matter what happens, death in the family, cousin’s marriage, have not been to India in 10 years or long lost friend. If he goes to India at marriage-able age, he is coming back married and it AIN’T to you. Fight with all your might, do not let him go for a trip to India at this point in time or say “Great, I have always wanted to go to India” then quit your job, sell your house and go WITH him.

7. Jatt Sikh and caste system, WARNING this point will make many people angry. Yes, it is a problem. Jatt’s want to marry Jatt’s etc. etc.. The various castes have their problems but you being white don’t have a “caste” and if “white English” were a caste it is a peer not below “Jatt”. Further, the founder of the Sikh religion was Guru Nanak Devji and he specifically banned the caste system. That is why anyone can sit beside anyone in the Gurdwara (temple) and everyone sits together to take Guru’s Langer (meal served after religious services) equally. And here is where your BF being a Jatt will help you, in any group or gathering of Sikh’s there is ALWAYS at least ONE true Sikh and because they think they are more liberal and fair minded of all the castes, they will fight for what is right and true no matter what anyone else says. Therefore in any group there will always be a Jatt Sikh who will stand up for you and say “she has converted to Sikhism, caste is NO bar”. The caste thing is soooo wrong and core to the Sikh religion and Guru’s teachings, it is like a Christian saying there was nothing special about Jesus. Out in the street the Jatt caste thing is a big deal, inside the Gurdwara it is not … proof, ask any Sikh to put their hand on the Guru Granth Sahib (Sikh holy book) and swear Guru teaches only Jatt marries Jatt … they will get furiously mad, but they won’t do it, because Guru teaches the opposite. Sorry if I have offended on this one.

8. You need to have a female (young or old) Sikh friend to advise you. If his family does this or that, what does it mean and how should you react, what should you do? The little ins and outs of these things can be tricky and you don’t want to misread or misunderstand what is occurring. Sikhs are good and fair people, someone will help you. This person can also teach you how to make indian food, pick out indian suits and generally become an expert in the culture. Seriously, mothers worry about whether their son will eat right after marriage. Become a good indian cook and soothe her fears. Whatever you can do help. Also is anyone in your family a Doctor or Dentist, are you? The higher the standing of your family in hte community the lower the hurdles. A rich white doctor outranks a Jatt Cab driver and result in less family concerns. Stress you job and imcome and willingness to help others in his family get jobs. Take your BF home to meet your parents, who have their doubts about him or accepts him.

9. Time is your friend. The longer this all takes the better for you. The more his family gets to see you, the more they get to know you, the more they see he is happy with you, the more used to the idea they get. Do not make the mistake of trying to rush him to marry you, that will only make them want to speed up the arranged marriage. The longer it takes the more you get to impress them with your abilities, sincerity, honesty, education, profession etc. etc..

10. You need to soothe their fears, tell his family you are converting, learning the language, planning on grand children, wanting them to grow up Sikh, you don’t believe in divorce, you will stand by your man, you can support your BF, you will make him a better person, you will make him happy, you will take care of HIS parents when they are old, they can count on you because LOVE marriage is stronger than an arranged marriage and you will do it because you LOVE him, not out of phony and insincere “respect”. Take away what they are worried about and the fear of you goes away.

And lastly, luck and you will need lots of luck.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sep 8, 2010
70
78
Los Angeles
Gaura ji,

6. NO trips to India! This one you have to put your foot down. No matter what happens, death in the family, cousin’s marriage, have not been to India in 10 years or long lost friend. If he goes to India at marriage-able age, he is coming back married and it AIN’T to you.

I don't agree with above assertion.

I don't know what you consider a marriageable age, but I have been to India 3 times after turning 18+ and twice after turning 21.
As far as I know, I didn't come back married.
Neither did any of my 5 cousins. Some of them even have non-sikh girlfriends that their parents know about if that's what your argument was.

1. You have to convert to Sikhism as YOUR religion (I warned you this was hard).
She has to learn about sikhism as much as they guy is supposed to learn about the Girl's religion. If the guy loves the girl enough to be with her for rest of his life, then he shouldn't force or even ask the girl to convert. He should accept her just the way she is. If converting to sikhism becomes a pre condition for marriage, then there is no point in getting married as it won't last long without the mutual respect for each other's culture. Doesn't really matter whether it's the guy who puts this condition or his family. It's plain wrong.
A true sikh would never say that Sikh culture is better than Christian culture. Both cultures are different and should be respected as such.


2. You have to “try” to learn the language, you don’t have to be fluent.
Yes this would be a very positive step as most of the in-laws would be fluent in punjabi and will give the girl a chance to better communicate.
As mentioned in the above quoted text, 'TRYING' is the important part.
 
Oct 11, 2006
234
425
Patiala,Punjab.
I am not making my views just on based on Jattworld.At the time of Partition
,master Tara singh a Khatri was Undisputed leader of sikhs.Today to be a chief minister of Punjab You must be a Jatt sikh.Its a harsh truth but we have to accept reality.Majority of Honour killings in sikh community are committed by jatts.

Please don't think I am degrading Jatts.I have full respect for their bravery and dedication to sikhism.But all castes in sikhs in sikhism have their minus points and Jatts being considered as liberal is something that is very hard to accept.
Guru Fateh.
There are always some compultions and compeling reasons that make us act in a particular way, when we go into relationships such as marriage.
Marrying into your own caste does not necessarily mean that you hate other castes.

Even our great Gurus did not marry outside the Khatri caste.:eek:rangesingh:
 
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