How Do You Know God Exists? Does SGGS Prove God Exists?

[Harkiran Kaur]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Your thought is actually flawed because through science we know that everything... anything you made up of matter will be broken down into atoms, which break down into electrons and quarks (protons and nutrons break down to quarks) every quark (aside from the different up and down quarks) and every electron are the exact same, no matter which atoms they inhabit. So you see, no matyter what you break down will ALWAYS = X. There is no Y because everythig is made of the same exact thing!

Even more interesting is the fact that electrons and quarks do not reside in a steadfast place and time. They pop into and out of existence, randomly, and nobody knows where they go!! Also, electrons can behave as both a wave and/or a particle....

Take an object like a table;

A table is made from wood and metal, lets take one component of that: Wood

Wood is taken from a tree which rquires light and water, lets take one component of that; water

Water is made of hydrogen and oxygen lets take one component of that ETC ETC... now lets say there is no infinite regress, that there is an end to this chain. Lets call this end X. X is the creator, X is essentially God.

Now lets take another object, spoon. lets apply the same process, a spoon is made of metal, one component of metal is blah blah blah etc... we end up to the end of the chain, which is Y

Who is to say that X = Y? cant X and Y be different ultimate causes of creation? "Eik Onkar" is an assertion which to me seems a little bit silly, it has no rational basis

 

[Archived_member15]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Firstly, you talk of God as an Abrahamic father figure...they try and copy the style of the Abrahamic...

Dear Harry ji

I don't write on this forum as frequently now, and actually haven't been on it for over three months, nonetheless I feel that I perhaps should interject here given that the idea of the Abrahamic conception of God has been raised.

I want to clarify for the sake of this discussion just what that Abrahamic conception is really like

What I think is important to realize is that while the Abrahamic faiths - Judaism, Islam, Christianity and the Baha'i Faith (as well as Zoroastrianism which isn't strictly Abrahamic but shares the same broad philosophical outlook) - might have many followers who share the understanding of the Supreme Creator that you identify as Abrahamic this is not necessarily the same as how theologians and mystics have actually understood God.

You are identifying, I feel, more of the popular religion of laity, if anything.

Here is how one of the Catholic Church's most important teachers, the Syrian mystical theologian Dionysius (who is used as an authority by St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Bonaventure, Meister Eckhart and all others) explained God:

"...The cause of all things
embraces all
and is above all,
is not without being or without life.
He does not lack reason or intelligence.
Yet,
he is not an object.
He has no form or shape,
no quality, no quantity, no weight.
He is not restricted to any place.
He cannot be seen
He cannot be touched.
Our sense cannot perceive him,
our mind cannot grasp him.
He is not swayed by needs or drives or inner emotions.
Things or events that take place in our world can never upset him.
He needs no light.
He suffers neither change
nor corruption nor division.
He lacks nothing
and remains always the same. ​

He is neither soul nor intellect.
He does not imagine, consider, argue or understand.
He cannot be expressed in words
or conceived in thoughts.
He does not fall into any category of number or order.
He possesses no greatness or smallness
no equality or inequality
no similarity or dissimilarity.
He does not stand, or move, nor is he addressed. ​

He does not yield power,
neither is he power itself
nor is he light.
He does not live
nor is he life itself.
He may not be identified with being,
nor with eternity or time.
He is not subject to the reach of the mind.
He is not knowledge,
or truth,
or kingship, ​

or wisdom.

He is not the one, or oneness;​

not Godhead or goodness. ​

He is not even spirit

in the way we understand it,

or sonship or fatherhood. ​

​

He is not anything else known to us

or to any other being.
He has nothing in common with things that exist
or things that do not exist.
Nothing that exists
knows him as he really is.
Nor does he know things that exist
through a knowledge
existing outside himself.
Reason cannot reach him, or know him.
He is neither darkness nor light,
neither falsehood nor truth ​

​

All statements affirmed about him

or denied about him
are equally wrong.
For although we can make positive or negative statements
about all things below him,
We can neither affirm;
nor deny him himself
because the all-perfect and unique cause of all things
is beyond all affirmation.
Moreover, by the simple pre-eminence
of his absolute nature,
he falls outside the scope
of any negation.
He is free from every limitation and beyond them all. ​

The higher we rise in contemplation the more words fail.
Words cannot express pure mind.
When we enter the darkness that lies beyond our grasp
we are forced, not merely to say little,
but rather to maintain an absolute silence,
a silence of thought
as well as of words. . . ​

As we move up from below
to that which is higher
in the order of being,
our power of speech decreases,
until,
when we reach the top,
We find ourselves totally speechless.
We are then overcome
by him who is wholly ineffable..."​

​

- Dionysius the Areopagite (sixth century AD), Syrian Catholic monk & mystical theologian
​

So when you speak of the Abrahamic God, that is the Abrahamic God as Catholic theologians, Muslim Sufis, Jewish thinkers, Baha'is and others understand Him.

Dionysius says that he is NOT FATHERHOOD!!!!!! :grinningkaur:

While Sikhi says that God is "Truth", Catholicism agrees in one respect ie:

"...We must recognize the truth in everything. I mean, we must love in God and for God's sake everything that has being, because God is Truth itself, and without God nothing has being..."​

- Saint Catherine of Siena (1347 - 1380), Dominican mystic and Doctor of the Church​

However as Dionysius explains above, we would go further in saying that he cannot be called "Truth" nor any other name, since he is ineffable and inexppressibe yet within everything that exists.

Sikhi seems to agree with this too since the Granth describes God as "Nameless".

BTW I should actually note that in the original Greek Dionysius calls God "it", however the translator noted that he considered this to be too impersonal in English so rendered it freely as "he".
​

 

[spnadmin]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Dear Harry ji


Sikhi seems to agree with this too since the Granth describes God as "Nameless".

Vouthon ji

It is good to see you posting again. I actually need to express profound disagreement with your quoted statement above. Sikhi does not "agree" simply because the idea of "nameless" occurs in the Granth. There are several statements by Dionysus that also contradict the Granth.

Robins and turtles both lay eggs. The fact that they share this attribute makes them similar on this one point. Perhaps robins and turtles are even similar in other ways. But robins are not turtles.

Those things that are "not the same" very often help us understand was is fundamentally true about, for and in a particular religion. The drive to conclude that all religions believe the same things, follow the same god, etc. stress sameness in order to assimilate the "other," and through assimilation destroy.

 

[Archived_member15]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Vouthon ji

It is good to see you posting again. I actually need to express profound disagreement with your quoted statement above. Sikhi does not "agree" simply because the idea of "nameless" occurs in the Granth. There are several statements by Dionysus that also contradict the Granth.

Robins and turtles both lay eggs. The fact that they share this attribute makes them similar on this one point alone. Perhaps robins and turtles are even similar in other ways. But robins are not turtles.

Those things that are "not the same" very often help us understand was is fundamentally true about a concept in religion. The drive to conclude that all religions believe the same things, follow the same god, etc. stress sameness in order to assimilate the "other," and through assimilation destroy.

Dear Spn,

Thank you for your post!

Oh I am not suggesting that Dionysius and Sikhi teach the same about God. By no means. Dionysius is Christian, not Sikh. He believed in the Trinity and the Incarnation of Christ, doctrines that are anathema to Sikhi.

My point rather was that we can have a conception of what a certain religion understands about God based upon popular notions, rather than how theologians and thinkers in that faith actually understand God.

I sometimes feel that when people speak of "Abrahamic", they often assume that Islam and Christianity teaches about a God who sits on a cloud and rewards and punishes, whereas those two religions in theological respects have a much more developed conception of the Creator.

I am simply quoting Dionysius to illustrate my belief that we should not assume that within Islam and Christianity everyone holds to a conception of God in line with what Harry identified as "Abrahamic".

My point is not even particularly related to the Sikh conception of God but rather generalizations of religious ideas about God.

Kind regards,

Vouthon

 

[spnadmin]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Vouthon ji

Thank you for your clarification. Given your clarification... then I do have to agree this topic is not something to wrap up easily, nor do I think that subjective experiences of the divine should be dismissed.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Vouthon ji,

Guru Fateh. Welcome back.

If you believe in what Dionysus says god is the/an it, then where does Jesus, the son of God fit into your thought process?

Secondly, where did the 10 commandments come from if god is the/an it?

I sometimes feel that when people speak of "Abrahamic", they often assume that Islam and Christianity teaches about a God who sits on a cloud and rewards and punishes, whereas those two religions in theological respects have a much more developed conception of the Creator.

All the scriptures of the different Abrahamic religions talk about reward and punishment. That is the main concept of god in the Abrahamic religions. If it were not true, then the concept of Heaven and Hell would not exist also the beliefs in rapture and purgatory would be absent.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_member15]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Vouthon ji,

Guru Fateh. Welcome back.

If you believe in what Dionysus says god is the/an it, then where does Jesus, the son of God fits into your thought process?

Secondly, where did the 10 commandments come from if god is the/an it?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Dear Tejwant ji

Peace be with you brother!

Thank you very much for your questions, I will answer them as best I can:

If you believe in what Dionysus says god is the/an it, then where does Jesus, the son of God fits into your thought process?

Before I do could you please clarify for me what you mean by "the/an it"? I want to make sure I understand what you are asking first :grinningkaur:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Vothon ji,

From your own words:

BTW I should actually note that in the original Greek Dionysius calls God "it", however the translator noted that he considered this to be too impersonal in English so rendered it freely as "he"

.

Let's talk about the original, not about how the translator interpreted "it".

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Vothon ji,

From your own words:

.

Let's talk about the original, not about how the translator interpreted "it".

Tejwant Ji, could the above quote by Vouthon be referring to the usage of 'it' to denote that God is neither male nor female? In other languages, it's easy to refer to a genderless persona that is still a conscious entity... however it's very weird to refer to any conscious entity in English as 'it' In the same way that all translations of Gurbani into english refer to Waheguru as 'he' when in the original there exist plenty of reference to the creator being neither male or female but possessing qualities of both (as Father AND Mother for e.g.) So in Vouthon's quote could it be that the original was trying to say that God is without gender - rather than trying to say that God is inanimate/without awareness??

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Tejwant Ji, could the above quote by Vouthon be referring to the usage of 'it' to denote that God is neither male nor female? In other languages, it's easy to refer to a genderless persona that is still a conscious entity... however it's very weird to refer to any conscious entity in English as 'it' In the same way that all translations of Gurbani into english refer to Waheguru as 'he' when in the original there exist plenty of reference to the creator being neither male or female but possessing qualities of both (as Father AND Mother for e.g.) So in Vouthon's quote could it be that the original was trying to say that God is without gender - rather than trying to say that God is inanimate/without awareness??

Akasha ji,

Guru fateh.

If that were the case, then Jesus would not be the only Son of God.

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

I'm gonna go join Akasha ji in the naughty corner cos this statement has just knocked me out of the race:



Why do we bother with the term 'Sikh' when everyone has such vastly different opinions? How can we all be looking at the same Guru Granth Sahib Ji and all getting a different message or understanding?

The question is not impertinent and the reason is simple. Being a Sikh means that I have chosen this particular path as the one most suited to me. Each of us is at a different point in our development, as human beings and as Sikhs. As with any writing with deep meaning, the meaning we get from reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji will change as we develop and grow.

This is also one reason why saying the same nitnem day after day is meaningful.

One thing I particularly like about being a Sikh is that the religion treats me like an adult. Not a lot of little rules governing every aspect of my life, but rather a way of being in the world, a philosophy that I follow according to my understanding, mostly gleaned from reading and contemplating SGGS ji. . Yes, there are a few rules for Sikhs in general, and a few more for those who choose to accept the blessing of Amrit (the Khalsa) as outlined in the Sikh Rehat Maryada. These are still few compared to other religions.

A Sikh is expected to have and use good judgement in all aspects of life. None of us succeeds totally, but we are expected to try.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

I'm gonna go join Akasha ji in the naughty corner cos this statement has just knocked me out of the race:

Why do we bother with the term 'Sikh' when everyone has such vastly different opinions? How can we all be looking at the same Guru Granth Sahib Ji and all getting a different message or understanding?

Ishna ji and Akasha ji,

Guru Fateh to you both.

Allow me to share my 2 cent worth.

Interesting questions and doubts raised by both of you which are understandable. The good problem with us humans is that we need comparative studies especially when we are trying to map our spiritual paths. There are mainly two ways about it.

One way is that we are told to have a blindfolded faith/belief because god is some superman, whom only the few have the direct access to, and those few have all the power to mind control the followers. Rewards and punishment are integral part of this. Tickets to Paradise or Hell are subjectively selected. Carrots and sticks are often used by the “owners” of the religions. Cans and cannots are the external impositions one must adhere to as dictated by them.

The other way is like the Sikhi way where the Genome of the Munn is given to us as the foundations of the selves and depending on our desire, perseverance and quench; we can erect any kind of buildings on the foundations for us to dwell in. Wills and willnots are the self-rules cultivated from the internal manifestations through it.

All the rest depends on the Sikh, the student, the seeker because it is the journey of the individual to carve his/her own path with the help of this Genome, whose blueprint is in 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_member15]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Thank you brother Tejwant :gingerteakaur:

This is very difficult for me to explain, but I will try. Please ask again if I fail to express myself clearly.

First here is a literal translation of a part of the original from the Classics of Western Spirituality edition of the Dionysian corpus:

"...It has neither shape nor form, quality, quantity, or weight. It is not in any place and can neither be seen nor be touched. It is neither perceived nor is it perceptible. It suffers neither disorder nor disturbance and is overwhelmed by no earthly passion. It is not powerless and subject to the disturbances caused by sense perception. It endures no deprivation of light. It passes through no change, decay, division, loss, no ebb and flow, nothing of which the senses may be aware. None of all this can either be identified with it nor attributed to it. Again, as we climb higher we say this. It is not soul or mind, nor does it possess imagination, conviction, speech, or understanding...it is neither one nor oneness, divinity nor goodness. Nor is it a spirit, in the sense in which we understand that term. It is not sonship or fatherhood and it is nothing known to us or to any other being. It falls neither within the predicate of nonbeing nor of being. Existing beings do not know it as it actually is and it does not know them as they are. There is no speaking of it, nor name nor knowledge of it. Darkness and light, error and truth—it is none of these..."

- Dionysius the Areopagite (5th-6th century Catholic mystic)

1. If you believe in what Dionysus says god is the/an it, then where does Jesus, the son of God fits into your thought process?

When Dionysius speaks of God in the above, he is referring to the unknowable Divine Essence or Ground of the Godhead. This is God in his Inmost Being or Selfhood, as known Only to Himself beyond all differentiation of forms. In Himself, God cannot be known or expressed by human minds since he is neither this nor that.

In Catholic spirituality, a difference is delineated between God and the Godhead not in fact but as regards human perception. Human beings, because the nature of God is so simple and formless, perceive a distinction in the nature of God between God & Godhead. Thus the Infinite One has a twofold character according to human awareness - an impersonal aspect (above knowledge) and a personal aspect (knowable in relation to us).

The former is the Supreme Being in its immanent aspect, according to the perception of man, and for Catholics this is God as revealed in the Trinity of Divine Persons: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The latter, the Godhead, is the unknowable wilderness of the Divine Essence shared by the Three Persons, which is eternally still and at rest. This is God in its transcendent aspect according to human reason, and here we can know nothing of it save by negation ie what it is not.

God is Impersonal in Himself but personal in relation to us, whereby he manifests Himself as having Three Personalities: 1) the Father 2) the Word (or Son) & 3) the Holy Spirit.

Read:

"The Father is the unconditioned Origin, Strength and Power, of all things. The Son is the Eternal Word and Wisdom that shines forth in the world of conditions. The Holy Spirit is Love and Generosity emanating from the mutual contemplation of Father and Son...the Spirit is the self-giving presence of God that permeates and sustains creation. The Spirit is the bridge between eternity and time, between the transcendent ‘wholly Other’" (Evelyn Underhill).

In this second sense, the Personal aspect of God as man perceives it, God has revealed attributes exemplified by the Persons such a: Truth, Goodness, Love, Merciful, Wise etc. etc.

Jesus, in Christian understanding, is the incarnation of God the Word or Logos - the Second Person. According to the Bible:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life and the life was the light of all men. The light shines in the darkness ... The light which enlightens every person coming into the world...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

the Holy Spirit is Love - the Bond of Love between the Father and the Word, and the Bond of Love between God, Creation, creatures and all things.

This love between the Persons of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, flows out into all creation, gathering up all creation in one divine embrace which lies at the very heart of God's being.

The Father is the Lover, the Son the Loved and the Holy Spirit the Love between the two and who flows out to all creation. God thereby eternally contemplates in Himself in this way.

Beyond these Three Persons, there is the dark, unconditioned abyss of the Divine Essence, God in His Most Impersonal aspect according to human understanding - The Godhead.

The Godhead is the Unity of the Three Persons.

When we die, according to Catholic mysticism, we return to the Divine Essence. We are caught up into the very embrace of the Divine Persons and sink into the imageless nudity of the Godhead, where there are no distinctions of Persons, only one Eternal, Infinite, Inexpressible void in which all beings lose their way and are lost.

God however is eternal flow and ebb. He flows out into multiplicity, into differentiation, into the Three Persons and then flows back into the bare oneness of the Godhead.

We, when we return to God, take part in this endless flowing and ebbing. We sink into the Godhead and are lost to ourselves, and ebb back out simultaneously into our independent "I". That is why Catholic mystics describe God as a Sea that ebbs and flows.

To quote Evelyn Underhill in summation from the Wikipedia article on her:

The Three Persons "exist in an eternal distinction for that world of conditions wherein the human soul is immersed". [63] By the acts of the Three Persons all created things are born; by the incarnation and crucifixion we human souls are adorned with love, and so to be drawn back to our Source. "This is the circling course of the Divine life-process." [63]
But beyond and above this eternal distinction lies "the superessential world, transcending all conditions, inaccessible to thought-- 'the measureless solitude of the Godhead, where God possesses Himself in joy.' This is the ultimate world of the mystic." [63-64] There, she continues, quoting Ruysbroeck: "we can speak no more of Father, Son and Holy Spirit nor of any creature; but only of one Being, which is the very substance of the Divine Persons. There were we all one before our creation; for this is our superessence... . There the Godhead is, in simple essence, without activity; Eternal Rest, Unconditioned Dark, the Nameless Being, the Superessence of all created things, and the simple and infinite Bliss of God and of all the Saints." [64][12] "The simple light of this Being... embraces the unity of the Divine Persons" as well as envelopes and irradiates the ground and fruition of human souls in the Divine life-process. "And this is the union of God and the souls that love Him." [64-65][13]

I hope that this was helpful to you Tejwant ji. Catholic mysticism is quite different from Sikhi in respect of the Trinity. It reflects the unique Christian belief in God as Trinity which Sikhi does not share, although there might be some similarity, perhaps, in our understanding of the Godhead and even attributes of God in the personal sense.

 

[Archived_member15]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Tejwant Ji, could the above quote by Vouthon be referring to the usage of 'it' to denote that God is neither male nor female? In other languages, it's easy to refer to a genderless persona that is still a conscious entity... however it's very weird to refer to any conscious entity in English as 'it' In the same way that all translations of Gurbani into english refer to Waheguru as 'he' when in the original there exist plenty of reference to the creator being neither male or female but possessing qualities of both (as Father AND Mother for e.g.) So in Vouthon's quote could it be that the original was trying to say that God is without gender - rather than trying to say that God is inanimate/without awareness??

Dear Akasha,

It means both actually. God has an Impersonal and Personal aspect according to human understanding. He has a dark, unknowable Essence in which all beings are lost and according to Christian teaching a personal aspect that is the Essence's manifestation in a Trinity of Personalities.

Also, yes, it means that God is neither male nor female. In Christianity God the Word incarnated in the Son, however the other two Persons are neuter as far as gender. The Father could equally be called "The Mother". ''As truly as God is our Father,' said the 14th century Catholic mystic Juliana of Norwich, 'so truly God is our Mother.'

God the Father (or Mother), God the Holy Spirit and God the Word in essence are beyond gender distinctions.

In Essence God is neither male nor female. I think that some religions (monistic ones such as certain interpretations of Hinduism) have only the conception of God in the Divine Essence which is why God is Impersonal for them.

Other religions focus on both the Impersonal and Personal aspects of God. This is called a "synthetic" view of God.

 

[anon]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

No, I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that eastern concepts of "god" are extremely diverse and very subtle. There is no single definition of "god" within Hinduism. Similarly you can see just from this thread that Sikhs differ as to the nature of god and some do not even sanction the use of the word. I would recommend that you take a look at Jain arguments about "god" if only to get a sense of how subtle the eastern perspective can be. Discover how much debate actually occurs, within a single path in the east.

Another thought. All traditions, east or west, have ways of explaining "reality" that can be very different. What is "real" may govern the ways in which "god" is understood.

Thank you for your reply and thank you everyone for your responses, I have read them all unfortunately I am not well equipped in a knowledge of Sikhi or Philosophy to answer them all, which is why i treat this forum as a learning experience. I hope I later have more time to respond to you all.

Of course my knowledge of Sikhi is lacking, but you can see how making the assumption that the proposed "sikh god" as a defined entity which is more akin to "the man in the clouds" rather than energy has come about.

We are often taught that the Gurus are manifestations of God, a phyiscial manifestation would imply that God is perhaps for of a being rather than a force, also sikhs give god a name, and in SGGS we are told to love God.

This is why i have always felt that the "Sikh God" is one which has a conscious and is a living entity. Of course my interpretation is very uninformed so perhaps i was mistaken in making this assumption.

As a sidenote I dislike it when people say that we should not speculate or attempt to understand the nature of God, I would atleast like to ascertain that he exists before i start to "love" him or show him any affection.

 

[Archived_member15]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Secondly, where did the 10 commandments come from if god is the/an it?

All the scriptures of the different Abrahamic religions talk about reward and punishment. That is the main concept of god in the Abrahamic religions. If it were not true, then the concept of Heaven and Hell would not exist also the beliefs in rapture and purgatory would be absent.

Dear Tejwant :sippingcoffeemunda:

Excellent question! And thankfully this is an easier one for me to answer than the last one (which led me into the realms of philosophy, and lets just say I'm not a qualified philosopher lol).

The Early Church Fathers interpreted all passages in the Bible which attribute human emotions to God as metaphors for man's sake. It is like God stooping down to the level of the people. They are images, rather than literal descriptions. These Fathers are authoritative in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches but not in Protestant Christianity.

Because certain forms of Christianity reject the Church Fathers and believe in sola scriptura (bible alone) it has led to an abuse of the sacred text whereby images that describe God metaphorically in anthropomorphic terms are taken as literal - because there is nothing else to indicate otherwise.

Here are some quotations from the Fathers of the Catholic Church:

Origen (c. 185 - c. 254)

And now, if, on account of those expressions which occur in the Old Testament, as when God is said to be angry or to repent, or when any other human affection or passion is described, (our opponents) think that they are furnished with grounds for refuting us, who maintain that God is altogether impassible, and is to be regarded as wholly free from all affections of that kind, we have to show them that similar statements are found even in the parables of the Gospel; as when it is said, that he who planted a vineyard, and let it out to husbandmen, who slew the servants that were sent to them, and at last put to death even the son, is said in anger to have taken away the vineyard from them, and to have delivered over the wicked husbandmen to destruction, and to have handed over the vineyard to others, who would yield him the fruit in its season. And so also with regard to those citizens who, when the head of the household had set out to receive for himself a kingdom, sent messengers after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us;’ for the head of the household having obtained the kingdom, returned, and in anger commanded them to be put to death before him, and burned their city with fire. But when we read either in the Old Testament or in the New of the anger of God, we do not take such expressions literally, but seek in them a spiritual meaning, that we may think of God as He deserves to be thought of. And on these points, when expounding the verse in the second Psalm, ‘Then shall He speak to them in His anger, and trouble them in His fury,’ we showed, to the best of our poor ability, how such an expression ought to be understood.

(De Principiis, 2, 4, 4; ANF, vol. 4)

St. Augustine (354-430)

It is true that wicked men do many things contrary to God's will; but so great is His wisdom and power, that all things which seem adverse to His purpose do still tend towards those just and good ends and issues which He Himself has foreknown. And consequently, when God is said to change His will, as when, e.g., He becomes angry with those to whom He was gentle, it is rather they than He who are changed, and they find Him changed in so far as their experience of suffering at His hand is new, as the sun is changed to injured eyes, and becomes as it were fierce from being mild, and hurtful from being delightful, though in itself it remains the same as it was.

(City of God, 22, 2; in NPNF 1, Vol. 2)
Therefore He loved all His saints before the foundation of the world, as He predestinated them; but when they are converted and find them; then they are said to begin to be loved by Him, that what is said may be said in that way in which it can be comprehended by human affections. So also, when He is said to be angry with the unrighteous, and gentle with the good, they are changed, not He: just as the light is troublesome to weak eyes, pleasant to those that are strong; namely, by their change, not its own.

(On the Trinity, 5, 16, 17; in NPNF 1, Vol. 3)

St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 - c. 215)

We, as would appear, do not cease in such matters to understand the Scriptures carnally; and starting from our own affections, interpret the will of the impassible Deity similarly to our perturbations; and as we are capable of hearing; so, supposing the same to be the case with the Omnipotent, err impiously. For the Divine Being cannot be declared as it exists: but as we who are fettered in the flesh were able to listen, so the prophets spake to us; the Lord savingly accommodating Himself to the weakness of men.

So Catholics do not take the language that you speak of literally (although sadly most Evangelical Christians do and this has filtered into the popular mind-set both in Christianity and outside it).

As you can see this is not a "new" thing. Its how Christian theologians traditionally understood their scriptures till the Protestant Reformation.

In Catholic mysticism heaven and hell are seen as states of mind or being that a person puts themselves in. It is not imposed on one by God.

This is not just taught by mystics and theologians now but is the official view of the Catholic Church:

"...The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy...[It is] a condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life...The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair..."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II (General Audience, July 28, 1999)

Thus Angelus Silesius the mystic notes:

"...The vengeful God
of wrath and punishment
is a mere fairytale.
It simply is the Me
that makes me fail.

God stands far above the anger,
rage and indignation
ascribed to Him by primitive imagination

All heaven's glory is within
and so is hell's fierce burning.
You must yourself decide
in which direction
you are turning

No evil wills our God. Planned he the sinner's end
And our unhappiness, he were not God, my friend.

If broken from its sun, a ray's no longer bright;
Thou neither, leaving God, thy necessary light

God dwelleth in a light toward which there is no path;
He must become that light who need of vision hath.

If gazing on the Sun endangereth thy sight,
The blame is in thine eyes, and not in that great Light..."

- Angelus Silesius (1624 - 1677), Polish-German Catholic mystic & poet

Just like Augustine said above the fault is in "our" eyes not in the "light" (God). God never changes, it is our own state of mind which conditions how we perceive God to be.

Now there is a point in the spiritual life where the idea of a punishing and rewarding God is abandoned altogether and the reality of God is known:

"...In order to attain perfect union, we must divest ourselves of God...The common belief about God, that He is a great Taskmaster, whose function is to reward or punish, is cast out by perfect love; and in this sense the spiritual man does divest himself of God as conceived of by most people..."

- Blessed Henry Suso (c. 1296-1366), German Catholic mystic & Dominican priest

I hope that was useful Tejwant.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Thank you brother Tejwant :gingerteakaur:

This is very difficult for me to explain, but I will try. Please ask again if I fail to express myself clearly.

First here is a literal translation of a part of the original from the Classics of Western Spirituality edition of the Dionysian corpus:







When Dionysius speaks of God in the above, he is referring to the unknowable Divine Essence or Ground of the Godhead. This is God in his Inmost Being or Selfhood, as known Only to Himself beyond all differentiation of forms. In Himself, God cannot be known or expressed by human minds since he is neither this nor that.

In Catholic spirituality, a difference is delineated between God and the Godhead not in fact but as regards human perception. Human beings, because the nature of God is so simple and formless, perceive a distinction in the nature of God between God & Godhead. Thus the Infinite One has a twofold character according to human awareness - an impersonal aspect (above knowledge) and a personal aspect (knowable in relation to us).

The former is the Supreme Being in its immanent aspect, according to the perception of man, and for Catholics this is God as revealed in the Trinity of Divine Persons: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The latter, the Godhead, is the unknowable wilderness of the Divine Essence shared by the Three Persons, which is eternally still and at rest. This is God in its transcendent aspect according to human reason, and here we can know nothing of it save by negation ie what it is not.

God is Impersonal in Himself but personal in relation to us, whereby he manifests Himself as having Three Personalities: 1) the Father 2) the Word (or Son) & 3) the Holy Spirit.

Read:

"The Father is the unconditioned Origin, Strength and Power, of all things. The Son is the Eternal Word and Wisdom that shines forth in the world of conditions. The Holy Spirit is Love and Generosity emanating from the mutual contemplation of Father and Son...the Spirit is the self-giving presence of God that permeates and sustains creation. The Spirit is the bridge between eternity and time, between the transcendent ‘wholly Other’" (Evelyn Underhill).

In this second sense, the Personal aspect of God as man perceives it, God has revealed attributes exemplified by the Persons such a: Truth, Goodness, Love, Merciful, Wise etc. etc.

Jesus, in Christian understanding, is the incarnation of God the Word or Logos - the Second Person. According to the Bible:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life and the life was the light of all men. The light shines in the darkness ... The light which enlightens every person coming into the world...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

the Holy Spirit is Love - the Bond of Love between the Father and the Word, and the Bond of Love between God, Creation, creatures and all things.

This love between the Persons of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, flows out into all creation, gathering up all creation in one divine embrace which lies at the very heart of God's being.

The Father is the Lover, the Son the Loved and the Holy Spirit the Love between the two and who flows out to all creation. God thereby eternally contemplates in Himself in this way.

Beyond these Three Persons, there is the dark, unconditioned abyss of the Divine Essence, God in His Most Impersonal aspect according to human understanding - The Godhead.

The Godhead is the Unity of the Three Persons.

When we die, according to Catholic mysticism, we return to the Divine Essence. We are caught up into the very embrace of the Divine Persons and sink into the imageless nudity of the Godhead, where there are no distinctions of Persons, only one Eternal, Infinite, Inexpressible void in which all beings lose their way and are lost.

God however is eternal flow and ebb. He flows out into multiplicity, into differentiation, into the Three Persons and then flows back into the bare oneness of the Godhead.

We, when we return to God, take part in this endless flowing and ebbing. We sink into the Godhead and are lost to ourselves, and ebb back out simultaneously into our independent "I". That is why Catholic mystics describe God as a Sea that ebbs and flows.

To quote Evelyn Underhill in summation from the Wikipedia article on her:



I hope that this was helpful to you Tejwant ji. Catholic mysticism is quite different from Sikhi in respect of the Trinity. It reflects the unique Christian belief in God as Trinity which Sikhi does not share, although there might be some similarity, perhaps, in our understanding of the Godhead and even attributes of God in the personal sense.

Vouthon ji,

You are giving so many different and contradictory statements from different people which thickens this Gumbo. Many also call Jesus God and we know Jesus was a human.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Which particular Word became God? Are the Gospels which were not added at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD not the Word? Who decided that? For example the Gospel of St. Thomas or of Mary and many others that the Vatican has in possession?

I would like to have your person view regarding this, because quoting others makes it more confusing and tangled.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Many claim that the concept of Trinity was borrowed from Hinduism and modified.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Anon ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

We are often taught that the Gurus are manifestations of God,

Who is WE and who said that where by whom? Please offer concrete examples?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_member15]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

Vouthon ji,

You are giving so many different and contradictory statements from different people which thickens this Gumbo. Many also call Jesus God and we know Jesus was a human.

Which particular Word became God? Are the Gospels which were not added at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD not the Word? Who decided that? For example the Gospel of St. Thomas or of Mary and many others that the Vatican has in possession?

I would like to have your person view regarding this, because quoting others makes it more confusing and tangled.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Many claim that the concept of Trinity was borrowed from Hinduism and modified.

Dear Tejwant,

Thank you once again for your reply.

When Christians refer to the Word we are not referring to a scripture such as the Granth or the Bible, which is I think what has confused you somewhat.

Word is an English rendering of a Greek term Logos it means from wikipedia:

Logos (pron.: /ˈloʊɡɒs/, UK /ˈlɒɡɒs/, or US /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Greek: λόγος, from λέγω lego "I say") is an important term in philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion. Originally a word meaning "a ground", "a plea", "an opinion", "an expectation", "word," "speech," "account," "reason,"[1][2] it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge...

The Stoic philosophers identified the term with the divine animating principle pervading the Universe.

Under Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (ca. 20 BC–AD 50) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy.[6] The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[7] and further identifies Jesus as the incarnate Logos.
Although the term "Logos" is widely used in this Christian sense, in academic circles it often refers to the various ancient Greek uses, or to post-Christian uses within contemporary philosophy, Sufism, and the analytical psychology of Carl Jung...

The Christian concept of the Logos is derived from the first chapter of the Gospel of John, where the Logos (often translated as “Word”) is described in terms that resemble, but likely surpass, the ideas of Philo

I know it can seem like "gumbo". Philosophy is difficult to explain and understand since it uses alien terms at times to explain archaic concepts. Since I'm not a philosopher I find it difficult to explain metaphysical speculative theology in a way that I don't have in explaining purely religious or spiritual concepts.

Jesus is considered to be the incarnation of this Word of God, the rational ordering principle of the universe, the divine animating principle of the universe.

This Word (Logos) is identified as being Jesus in Christian belief.

I hope that makes it clearer lol

 

[Archived_member15]

Re: How do you know God Exists? does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji prove god exists?

PS: Many claim that the concept of Trinity was borrowed from Hinduism and modified.

Dear Tejwant,

The Christian Trinity does bear some similarity too the Hindu Trimurti of Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu. It is a fruitful topic for interfaith dialogue between Christians and Hindus. The key difference however is that in Hinduism the three are seen as separate deities emanating from the Self (Brahman). Christianity rejects polytheism. We believe in one God not three and numerous other lesser deities.

Nevertheless it would be wrong to think that either tradition influenced the other. Vedanta was not even known to the early Christians. Only the disciples of St. Thomas reached India and they don't even exhibit any traces of the Upanishadic teachings.

Christianity arose from Judaism in a Hellenized, Greek world. If anything, Christianity would have been influenced by Platonism, Aristotelianism, Stoicism, Neo-Platonism and the various other ancient Greek and Roman philosophical systems.

Hinduism did not have any influence on the Early Church. Greek philosophy did however because that was the culture in which the religion was born into.

Kind regards,

Vouthon