How Do You Prove God In Sikhism?

[Harry Haller]

Although I respect the use of the word slave, and can completely see why it is a good choice, I personally disagree that this encapsulates the relationship between man and god.,


the relationship between a slave and a master does not, I believe, adequately describe the relationship between the creator and the spirit.

just my own personal opinion

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

I feel that the Numerical Number ONE in the Symbol is not there to denote something to be ONE as distinct.Its use has great sgnificance and its understanding can open the secrets of correct understanding of Gurbaani as a whole.
So the Symbol does not convey the meaning that CREATOR is ONE .

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Well there is nothing personal so long we are deliberating and sharing the views in context of Gurbaani.Our objective is common.So we can always go ahead.

Swimming and Sinking are not non Gurbaani centric as there are several messages related to this in Gurbaani.

I have observed a change in the interpretation of your quote in Red.At the end you say Creator is realsed thru its own graceThis is absolutely OK. From this you can probably get an idea what is being refered as CREATOR in Gurbaani. Last two words for this reference being GuR Prasaadi.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Although I respect the use of the word slave, and can completely see why it is a good choice, I personally disagree that this encapsulates the relationship between man and god.,


the relationship between a slave and a master does not, I believe, adequately describe the relationship between the creator and the spirit.

just my own personal opinion

Harry ji,
Perhaps these hints will help. The words are not important. What is important is that get a gist of what they point towards. I could state everything here in completely different words, and it will appear to be an entirely different philosophy. Avoid this trap. At the end of the day, you will have your own favourite set of words.

These are not my fav but let's keep going with the slave theme.

Man is already a slave. Not only to various chemicals that his body produces but also to the environment, to others actions, to forces much bigger. (He is a slave to language)

When he realizes he is a slave (not solving it mentally, or analyzing, that will only go so far), but when he actually sees his slave form, he realizes that the best way to live is to accept this, to surrender the mind. Once he surrenders to those 'great forces', he becomes free. [i am trying not to use the word God or any other substitute because generally, people tend to read the word and not what the word points to]

His perception grows, his field of view, gets bigger because he sees everything in context of his slave form and the larger forces that govern him. He becomes humble. He becomes fearless. He breaks away from society. At the same time, understands people on a much deeper level. He sees how these people are governed by forces beyond their comprehension, beyond even his own comprehension. He has learned to stop trying to comprehend it.

He gives up the search for a particular experience. As all experiences (and everything else in life) comes and goes. Nothing is permanent. Everything is impermanent. The only thing known to him is the Eternal Truth, and that's always there. He may not call it that. He may call it Waheguru, Allah, Ram, Nature, Brahman, God, Life, Truth.

In the beginning, he only gets glimpses of it but as he trains to surrender himself (he trains because that is not his normal way of living, normally he tries to control these greater forces) he starts to dwell more in the Truth.

And the truth is so simple yet it is not accepted or realized (again analysis or thinking about it, is not realization). You ready for this? Are you ready to hear the Truth? (Well, it already stated above but will state it again)

The Truth is that things are the way they are.

That's it. Things are the way they are; the rest is just insignificant yet overly emphasized details.

Surrender to that and be at peace.

Befuddled?

 

[spnadmin]

Ang 131

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥
Mājẖ mėhlā 5 gẖar 1.
Maajh, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ॥
Anṯar alakẖ na jā▫ī lakẖi▫ā.
The Unseen Lord is within, but He cannot be seen.

ਨਾਮੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਲੈ ਗੁਝਾ ਰਖਿਆ ॥
Nām raṯan lai gujẖā rakẖi▫ā.
He has taken the Jewel of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and He keeps it well concealed.

ਅਗਮੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਖਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥
Agam agocẖar sabẖ ṯe ūcẖā gur kai sabaḏ lakẖāvaṇi▫ā. ||1||
The Inaccessible and Incomprehensible Lord is the highest of all. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, He is known. ||1||

ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥
Ha▫o vārī jī▫o vārī kal mėh nām suṇāvṇi▫ā.
I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, to those who chant the Naam, in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga.

ਸੰਤ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਸਚੈ ਧਾਰੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
संत पिआरे सचै धारे वडभागी दरसनु पावणिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sanṯ pi▫āre sacẖai ḏẖāre vadbẖāgī ḏarsan pāvṇi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Beloved Saints were established by the True Lord. By great good fortune, the Blessed Vision of their Darshan is obtained. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਜਿਸੈ ਕਉ ਫਿਰਦੇ ॥
Sāḏẖik siḏẖ jisai ka▫o firḏe.
The One who is sought by the Siddhas and the seekers,

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਹਿਰਦੇ ॥
Barahme inḏar ḏẖi▫ā▫in hirḏe.
upon whom Brahma and Indra meditate within their hearts,

ਕੋਟਿ ਤੇਤੀਸਾ ਖੋਜਹਿ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥
Kot ṯeṯīsā kẖojėh ṯā ka▫o gur mil hirḏai gāvaṇi▫ā. ||2||
whom the three hundred thirty million demi-gods search for-meeting the Guru, one comes to sing His Praises within the heart. ||2||

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਤੁਧੁ ਜਾਪੇ ਪਵਨਾ ॥
Āṯẖ pahar ṯuḏẖ jāpe pavnā.
Twenty-four hours a day, the wind breathes Your Name.

ਧਰਤੀ ਸੇਵਕ ਪਾਇਕ ਚਰਨਾ ॥
Ḏẖarṯī sevak pā▫ik cẖarnā.
The earth is Your servant, a slave at Your Feet.

ਖਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਸਭਨਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
Kẖāṇī baṇī sarab nivāsī sabẖnā kai man bẖāvṇi▫ā. ||3||
In the four sources of creation, and in all speech, You dwell. You are dear to the minds of all. ||3||

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ॥
Sācẖā sāhib gurmukẖ jāpai.
The True Lord and Master is known to the Gurmukhs.

ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਿਞਾਪੈ ॥
Pūre gur kai sabaḏ siñāpai.
He is realized through the Shabad, the Word of the Perfect Guru.

ਜਿਨ ਪੀਆ ਸੇਈ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਸੇ ਸਚੇ ਸਚਿ ਅਘਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥
Jin pī▫ā se▫ī ṯaripṯāse sacẖe sacẖ agẖāvaṇi▫ā. ||4||
Those who drink it in are satisfied. Through the Truest of the True, they are fulfilled. ||4||

ਤਿਸੁ ਘਰਿ ਸਹਜਾ ਸੋਈ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ॥
Ŧis gẖar sahjā so▫ī suhelā.
In the home of their own beings, they are peacefully and comfortably at ease.

ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਕਰੇ ਸਦ ਕੇਲਾ ॥
Anaḏ binoḏ kare saḏ kelā.
They are blissful, enjoying pleasures, and eternally joyful.

ਸੋ ਧਨਵੰਤਾ ਸੋ ਵਡ ਸਾਹਾ ਜੋ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥ ५॥
So ḏẖanvanṯā so vad sāhā jo gur cẖarṇī man lāvaṇi▫ā. ||5||
They are wealthy, and the greatest kings; they center their minds on the Guru's Feet. ||5||

ਪਹਿਲੋ ਦੇ ਤੈਂ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਸਮਾਹਾ ॥
Pahilo ḏe ṯaiʼn rijak samāhā.
First, You created nourishment;

ਪਿਛੋ ਦੇ ਤੈਂ ਜੰਤੁ ਉਪਾਹਾ ॥
Picẖẖo ḏe ṯaiʼn janṯ upāhā.
then, You created the living beings.

ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਲਵੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
Ŧuḏẖ jevad ḏāṯā avar na su▫āmī lavai na ko▫ī lāvaṇi▫ā. ||6||
There is no other Giver as Great as You, O my Lord and Master. None approach or equal You. ||6||

ਜਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਠਾ ਸੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥
Jis ṯūʼn ṯuṯẖā so ṯuḏẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫e.
Those who are pleasing to You meditate on You.

ਸਾਧ ਜਨਾ ਕਾ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਕਮਾਏ ॥
Sāḏẖ janā kā manṯar kamā▫e.
They practice the Mantra of the Holy.
ਆ ॥੭॥
आपि तरै सगले कुल तारे तिसु दरगह ठाक न पावणिआ ॥७॥
Āp ṯarai sagle kul ṯāre ṯis ḏargėh ṯẖāk na pāvṇi▫ā. ||7||
They themselves swim across, and they save all their ancestors and families as well. In the Court of the Lord, they meet with no obstruction. ||7||

तूं बेअंतु अति मूचो मूचा ॥
Ŧūʼn be▫anṯ aṯ mūcẖo mūcẖā.
You are Infinite, You are Everything!

ਹਉ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਤੇਰੈ ਵੰਞਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਦਸਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੮॥੧॥੩੫॥
Ha▫o kurbāṇī ṯerai vañā Nānak ḏās ḏasāvaṇi▫ā. ||8||1||35||
I am a sacrifice to You. Nanak is the slave of Your slaves. ||8||1||35||

If we have the instinct for lsavery within us, slavery can be put to good use.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Yes! This is why Guru Arjan Dev ji is awesome! He gives form to It so well.

Whoever is looking for proof, there's a big hint.
E.g.

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਤੁਧੁ ਜਾਪੇ ਪਵਨਾ ॥
Āṯẖ pahar ṯuḏẖ jāpe pavnā.
Twenty-four hours a day, the wind breathes Your Name.

ਧਰਤੀ ਸੇਵਕ ਪਾਇਕ ਚਰਨਾ ॥
Ḏẖarṯī sevak pā▫ik cẖarnā.
The earth is Your servant, a slave at Your Feet.

ਖਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਸਭਨਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
Kẖāṇī baṇī sarab nivāsī sabẖnā kai man bẖāvṇi▫ā. ||3||
In the four sources of creation, and in all speech, You dwell. You are dear to the minds of all. ||3||

Watch out for the language trap. What it's referring to is beyond language.

 

[Harry Haller]

spnadminji
bhagatsinghji

Yes, I have to concede that you are both correct that we are indeed all slaves to something, even the air we breathe, I have to therefore bow myself before the truth and offer body and soul to it.

Something bothered me hugely yesterday, I don't know quite what I was riled by, I had written how hard it would be for me to offer my head to the Guru,whilst I loved my family and dogs so, yesterday I did not understand how anyone could, with any honesty, agree to death in the name of the Guru, I mean We can all aspire to it, but if right now, this second, the call came, how many would fall short.

In the absence of my wolf/man theory, where I spend time as man and wolf, each taking responsibility for his own actions, something stirred in me later that evening. At first I thought I was having a wolf experience, my senses felt heightened, I felt ready for action, to howl at the moon again, but I also felt something else, love.. My wife was asleep next to me, she sleeps a lot, she has a thyroid problem, Alfie was asleep on one side, and Dan was in the middle, asleep, everyone was asleep, and although I felt 'wolfish' they all looked so beautiful, things do not look beautiful when I am feeling like this normally, everything is base. It was not normal to feel so , alive and tensed, and also feel love, with relief, I realised wolf and man were still dead and gone, there needed to be some other explanation for this, subconsciously, I had been debating the 'giving the head to the Guru' question most of the day, not only would a good sikh do this, I mused, but he would be delighted to do it. I looked again at my sleeping family, something had managed to unite me in a way that I had not felt for some time, but it was not wolf and it was not man, without thinking, or speaking, deep down within me, I realised how important the faith in the Guru was. Of course he could have my head, without fear and with a smile on my lips, life goes on, people cope, looking at my family with tears in my eyes, I realised that the truth would ever shine on them whether I was on this earth or not, I felt a distinct lack of fear, and lightning of a load on my shoulders, something WAS inside me, but it was not wolf and it was not man., I closed my eyes and felt 500 years of warrior spirit welling up inside me, I felt the spirits of Baba Banda Singh, Baba Deep Singh, 40 Mukte, spirits of men who gave their heads for their Guru and the ultimate master, the truth. You cannot hide from who you are, and although it is now next day, I feel a peace and drive that was not their before, I am not as worried about money, or good food, or lust. I am also determined to enjoy every hour of every day that remains, but as closely to the parameters of the truth as laid out in the SGGS. Yes I will have bad days, but as long as I take 3 steps forward to every 1 step back, I think I will be ok

Thank you for reading

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

The words are not important.This may be applicable to wordly words which are false because there is no definite rule to get the gist of the words they point so there is always confusion and confusion only.

Whereas the words of Gurbaani are True words delivered thru True GuRU and these words are properly indicated with the direction for understanding the true meanings of Gurbaani words.
We should try to grasp this aspect related to the true words of Gurbaani.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Thank you both

Harry ji Congratulations! You got a glimpse of who you really are.