Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

If no distinctions are necessary why do you make this distinction between baptized and unbaptized Sikhs in saying they should never eat off the same plate? I mean, come on... everybody knows what it means to say some people can eat off the same plate with you but not those other ones. If that isn't a distinction, then what it is?

i apologize, i think perhaps my english is not adequate.

i was trying to say that since no one is put in a position in langar where they need to share a plate, it is not necessary for the distinction to arise in that situation.

sorry if i'm not explaining this well.

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

If no distinctions are necessary why do you make this distinction between baptized and unbaptized Sikhs in saying they should never eat off the same plate? I mean, come on... everybody knows what it means to say some people can eat off the same plate with you but not those other ones. If that isn't a distinction, then what it is?

Idealy I would say its Fundamentaly wrong to make distinction on such bases

But it happens some time bcause of Duality residing in Us
Even being baptised become a matter of pride and weapon to make other feel low but all this happens in hands of Duality

In Short I dont believ that Such condition Apply to any siklh( whether baptised or whatever!)about not sharing your plate with anybody .

 

[kds1980]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I am trying to read rehat maryada in gurmukhi I think the exact word is jhooth.
Also sharing plate and eating leftover is different

 

[BhagatSingh]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I am trying to read rehat maryada in gurmukhi I think the exact word is jhooth.
Also sharing plate and eating leftover is different

Not really jooth, is something had has been touched by someone else's mouth. So leftovers? sure it's jooth. But sharing a plate? That depends on how you share it! :ice:

And amrit sanchar is starting to sound like a ritual now!?

 

[BhagatSingh]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

" Attitude Towards Muslims An initiated Khalsa who bows to a Turk is a despicable creature. He who associates with anyone who mixes with Turks goes to hell. Do not trust Turks. Do not make friends with a Muslim. End the authority of the Turks. A Turk is an enemy and should be slain with the sword. Do not consume halal meat. Pay no heed to a [Muslim] pir. Those who worship Muhammad will go to a horrible hell. Anyone who eats food prepared for a Muslim festival, who offer sweets to a Muslim holy man, or who brews intoxicating liquor goes to hell. Do not trust the illegitimate offspring of a Muslim. Do not desire to learn Persian. Anyone who reads Persian is a tanakhahia and not my Sikh. Do not drink water from his hand and do not trust him. [12, 29, 35, 42, 44, 57, 59, 77, 79, 83, 84, 87, 90, 91, 92]

Attitude Towards Hindus​

Do not worship at cenotaphs, nor pay heed to any temple, religious vow, place of pilgrimage, goddess, god, fasting, 1-lindu worship, idols, mantras, or Brahmans. Do not make libations to the gods. Do not repeat the Gayatri, nor the evening prayers of Hindus. Do not worship at the cenotaph or tomb of some dead person. Do not hold a shraddh ceremony. Do not wear a sacred thread, feed a clean-shaven person, worship an idol, believe in an earthen image, or desert your own Guru. Do not observe the following: offerings to ancestors, Hindu evening ritual, bride-price, worship of the sun and planets, worship of gods, idol worship. Belief in the merits of particular phases of the moon is futile. Do not pierce your ears or your nose. Do not believe in the six darshans. Do not wear a tilak. Do not take food at a hair-cutting ceremony. Do not undergo a tonsure ceremony. A Brahman should not ride a bull. End the authority of the Hindu. A Singh should feed a Hindu. Having become a Singh, do not seek to learn the Hindu scriptures. You will become involved in the futile concerns of the Brahmans and will abandon the Guru's hymns. It is acceptable to have studied the Hindu scriptures before becoming a Singh. If a Brahman does not maintain his kes uncut and has not been initiated into the Khalsa do not accept food from his hands or make any offering to him. Those who worship Shankaracharya, Dattatreya, Ramanuja, or Gorakhnath will go to a horrible hell. [10, 12, 14, 30, 37, 40, 42, 44, 50, 61, 62, 69, 75, 76, 77, 83, 87, 88, 91] "

this is taken from:

A Gateway to Sikhism | Daya Singh Rahit-nama*-*A Gateway to Sikhism

can anyone explain this duality? and hate?

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Because, as soon as you take amrit, you take on the saroop (form) of Guru Gobing Singh, or if a Kaur, Mata Gujri. Amrit makes you a Sikh.

I'm not sure this is correct Sherab ji. Amrit makes you a baptised Sikh.

I think you have to understsand the peacefulness of SGGS, and bir ras (warrior essence) of dasam granth de bani. That part of amrit is part of bir ras - why share food from your own plate, with someone else who is not your brother?

Again that seems wrong. Does not Sikhi teach that we are all brothers and sisters, that God is in all? I see no sense in it, there is nobody unworthy or some how unclean enough to share food from my plate.

Eating off of one plate builds the khalsa into ONE body, in a sense of unity.

I thought that was love for God?

Sorry Singh ji, this just dosn't equate to what I feel is right and good about Sikhi, it smacks of the type of ritual that Guru Nanak Ji tried to get rid of.

I belive Guru ji extolls us to not follow blindly, but to think and realise why we do what we do.

Why then should a baptised Sikh not be able to eat from the same plate as a non Sikh?

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I'm not sure this is correct Sherab ji. Amrit makes you a baptised Sikh.



Again that seems wrong. Does not Sikhi teach that we are all brothers and sisters, that God is in all? I see no sense in it, there is nobody unworthy or some how unclean enough to share food from my plate.



I thought that was love for God?

Sorry Singh ji, this just dosn't equate to what I feel is right and good about Sikhi, it smacks of the type of ritual that Guru Nanak Ji tried to get rid of.

I belive Guru ji extolls us to not follow blindly, but to think and realise why we do what we do.

Why then should a baptised Sikh not be able to eat from the same plate as a non Sikh?

Some great questions, I will look forward to the answer.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I'm not sure this is correct Sherab ji. Amrit makes you a baptised Sikh.

actually, as i understand it (and i may be wrong), for those of us who converted from another faith, until we take amrit, we are not considered to be truely sikh.

when a child is born to sikh parents, at the time they are given a name (by taking hukamnama from Guru Granth Sahib), they are also given Amrit on their tongue with a kirpan... that Amrit is made by reciting the first five pauries of Japji Sahib. it's called 'Kirpan Da Amrit'. it's done partially so that the parents can eat from the same plate as their infant child. but also so that the child may be given the name "singh" or "kaur".

it's not a subsitute for Amrit Sanchar/Khande Dee Pahul - the baptism of the double edged sword- that sikhs take as adults.

anyway, my point is, at that time, the child becomes a Sikh. for anyone who did not recieve 'Kirpan Da Amrit', they must take Amrit Sanchar when they convert to be considered a sikh.

i think that this theory might not be universal across the faith, and i'm only relaying what i have heard, so please don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Again that seems wrong. Does not Sikhi teach that we are all brothers and sisters, that God is in all? I see no sense in it, there is nobody unworthy or some how unclean enough to share food from my plate.

i don't think it's about who is "unworthy"... it's simply maryada.

Why then should a baptised Sikh not be able to eat from the same plate as a non Sikh?

there are two components to sikhi. gurbani and maryada. gurbani teaches us how to find God. maryada shows us how to live our lives in accordance with Guru ji's hukam.

rehat maryada clearly states that amritdharis not share the leftovers of non-amritdharis. whatever the reasoning for it (and several have been given), it is part of our code of conduct. you don't have to follow it unless or until you take amrit, at which time you swear to live in accordance with Guru ji's law.



a lot of people talk about logic in regards to sikhi. here's how i have come to see it. sikhi may be 100% logical, but maybe i'm not yet learned enough to understand every bit of that logic. maybe as i grow spiritually i will understand more of why Guru said what Guru said. but at this point, i'm happy to do my best to follow the rules he laid out for me, and assume that they have a reason, even if i don't understand it now.

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

actually, as i understand it (and i may be wrong), for those of us who converted from another faith, until we take amrit, we are not considered to be truely sikh.

when a child is born to sikh parents, at the time they are given a name (by taking hukamnama from Guru Granth Sahib), they are also given Amrit on their tongue with a kirpan... that Amrit is made by reciting the first five pauries of Japji Sahib. it's called 'Kirpan Da Amrit'. it's done partially so that the parents can eat from the same plate as their infant child. but also so that the child may be given the name "singh" or "kaur".

it's not a subsitute for Amrit Sanchar/Khande Dee Pahul - the baptism of the double edged sword- that sikhs take as adults.

anyway, my point is, at that time, the child becomes a Sikh. for anyone who did not recieve 'Kirpan Da Amrit', they must take Amrit Sanchar when they convert to be considered a sikh.

i think that this theory might not be universal across the faith, and i'm only relaying what i have heard, so please don't shoot the messenger.

I don't belive this is right Jasleen Ji. I daresay that some would tell you so, but again does this not scream of exactly the type of meaningless ritual that Sikh has supposedly done away with?

I have been to many Gurdwara's and met many Sikhs, I have attended a fair few camps etc... I have never heard of this teaching, in fact quiet the opposite, if Sikh means a seeker, then surly anybody who seeks can lay claim to the label Sikh?

Somebody has already said how they view Sikhi as not a religoin but as a path, or way, or I guess dharma.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I don't belive this is right Jasleen Ji. I daresay that some would tell you so, but again does this not scream of exactly the type of meaningless ritual that Sikh has supposedly done away with?

I have been to many Gurdwara's and met many Sikhs, I have attended a fair few camps etc... I have never heard of this teaching, in fact quiet the opposite, if Sikh means a seeker, then surly anybody who seeks can lay claim to the label Sikh?

Somebody has already said how they view Sikhi as not a religoin but as a path, or way, or I guess dharma.

actually, sikh means disciple, specifically, desciple of the Guru. without the Guru there can be no Sikh, so no, i don't think that just anyone who seeks can call themself sikh. (my opinion)

people who view sikhi not as religion but as dharma may be confusing it with hinduism. sikhi has two components, miri and piri... spiritual and temporal. without the temporal part it might not be religion. but the two are inseparable. we do not only follow gurbani, we also follow maryada. we worship at Darbar Sahib, but we take direction from Akal Takht.

i hope i'm making some kind of sense...


but regardless, i do not regard amrit sanchar as meaningless ritual, and i don't think any other sikh should either. it was ordered by our Guru. and as disciples, it's our duty to follow our Guru's hukam. correct?

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

there are two components to sikhi. gurbani and maryada. gurbani teaches us how to find God. maryada shows us how to live our lives in accordance with Guru ji's hukam.

Ohhh certianly that is true, and not that I wish to upset the apple cart, but I find myself questioning myself about the Rehat Maryarda. As I'm sure you know there are lots of maryarda's the rehat being only one. I'm sure you also know the history of that document, and on the face of it Guru's message that when five Sat Sikh's are present then so is Guru, would lend weight and credance to the rehat maryada.

The question that keeps coming at me though is, could it be said that this document was created by 5 Sat Sikhs, and so is Guru's recomendation, or not? I have been Sikh for perhaps 7 years now, and in that time I can say I have meet perhaps 2 Sat Sikhs. Nope I think it is not very often that Guru ji is present with Sangat.

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

but regardless, i do not regard amrit sanchar as meaningless ritual, and i don't think any other sikh should either. it was ordered by our Guru. and as disciples, it's our duty to follow our Guru's hukam. correct?

Jasleen ji,

Sorry you misconstule my words. Amrit sanchar of course is not meaningless rite, but how does not being allowed to eat food from the same plate bring us closer to God? That seems more like the Hindu sort of cleanliness worries than good old boundary smashing Sikhi to me.

 

[Sherab]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Jasleen ji,

Sorry you misconstule my words. Amrit sanchar of course is not meaningless rite, but how does not being allowed to eat food from the same plate bring us closer to God? That seems more like the Hindu sort of cleanliness worries than good old boundary smashing Sikhi to me.

so you also don't wash your hands before handling gutka sahib? :2:

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

so you also don't wash your hands before handling gutka sahib? :2:

As a mark of respect to Guru ji, yes of course I do. What though has that got to do with what we have been discusing?

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Ohhh certianly that is true, and not that I wish to upset the apple cart, but I find myself questioning myself about the Rehat Maryarda. As I'm sure you know there are lots of maryarda's the rehat being only one. I'm sure you also know the history of that document, and on the face of it Guru's message that when five Sat Sikh's are present then so is Guru, would lend weight and credance to the rehat maryada.

The question that keeps coming at me though is, could it be said that this document was created by 5 Sat Sikhs, and so is Guru's recomendation, or not? I have been Sikh for perhaps 7 years now, and in that time I can say I have meet perhaps 2 Sat Sikhs. Nope I think it is not very often that Guru ji is present with Sangat.

hmm... i don't think i'm quite good enough myself to judge who is "sat"... the current rehat maryada as published by SGPC in 1945 was compiled from previous rehetnamas and cross referenced with gurbani and also with known writings of the associates of the Gurus. it was specifically re-written to REMOVE any hindu/brahmanical elements. it was a massive undertaking, with 9 years of verification after the first draft was written. it was compiled and researched by many of the most respected Sikh scholars and activists of the time. I did not know these Sikhs, but I trust that out of the many there were several who were "sat".

here's a good article on the history and significance of the Sikh Rehat Maryada:

Panthic Weekly: 'Sikh Rehat Maryada' by Mewa Singh


of course, you may choose not to follow it. but remember that the concept of miri and piri has been with sikhi since the time of the first Nanak. the fact that Guru Nanak Dev ji emphasized hard work, honest living, giving to others... along side the spiritual component of gurbani and naam... shows that the temporal has always been and still is an integral part of our faith. we cannot exist on the spiritual alone.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Jasleen ji,

Sorry you misconstule my words. Amrit sanchar of course is not meaningless rite, but how does not being allowed to eat food from the same plate bring us closer to God? That seems more like the Hindu sort of cleanliness worries than good old boundary smashing Sikhi to me.

i don't think that "cleanliness" is the domain of hindus alone... why do we put such emphasis on bathing before doing paath? washing hands and feet before entering the Gurdwara? taking a full bath with kes isnaan before taking amrit? what does the kanga symbolize?

even in Gurbani, the importance of cleanliness is emphasized.

ਮਃ ੪ ॥
ma 4 ||
Fourth Mehl:
ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
gur sathigur kaa jo sikh akhaaeae s bhalakae outh har naam dhhiaavai ||
One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru the True Guru shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.
ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਵੈ ॥
oudham karae bhalakae parabhaathee eisanaan karae anmrith sar naavai ||
Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar.


the difference between the Sikh concept of cleanliness and the Hindu concept is that Sikhs believe that ANYONE can become clean. Hindus believe that certain castes will never be clean, regardless of their bathing.

note: this only describes the physical aspect of cleanliness. Gurbani also discusses spiritual cleanliness at length.

 

[Sherab]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

As a mark of respect to Guru ji, yes of course I do. What though has that got to do with what we have been discusing?

What does washing your hands have to do with respect?

it's just cleanliness, after all, just like not sharing food off the same plate.

PS. on another note, the next time a panjabi person asks me for my caste, i'm saying dalit.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

PS. on another note, the next time a panjabi person asks me for my caste, i'm saying dalit.

technically, according to hindus, anyone who is not born to a hindu family is casteless or "dalit", so your response would be appropriate.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

All I can say is that I believe the same light of God exists in all and that, sometimes, God walks right beside us in rags just to see if we will love Him in any state he might appear before us. Therefore, I will take my chances and share my plate at any opportunity I have.

I also would like to see what a punjab/english scholar and interpreter would have to say about the difference between eating someone's leftovers and sharing your plate.

At any rate, I believe Sikhi to be a "non-exclusivist faith" as a very learned Sikh scholar explained it to me.

That's what I love about it. I also think that's one of the things that is the most difficult for us westerners to really wrap our minds around. It's hard not to try to base our understanding on the only kinds of reasoning we've ever known. And let's face it, western culture is not the most egalitarian... one-upmanship and separatism is woven into the fabric of our concsiousness from the moment we take our first breath. And I think it might behoove us to be mindful of this when we are trying to adapt to an eastern belief system, especially Sikhi, which is the most egalitarian faith I know of.

Respectfully,

c