Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

SGGS HAS a code of conduct


re reading my earlier post, i found that it was not clear. However my intention was not to twist your words but to clarify that SGGS has the codes required to lead life

not all of us manmukhs are at such a spiritual state that we do not need an external gude to follow.

some enlightened beings automatically know how to do the right thing, and what the right thing is. some intelligent souls can understand every nuance of gurbani.

but must of us are beginners, learners, seekers. we do not all have these gifts. we need assistance in learning how to behave according to sikh conventions.

for example, i did not grow up in a sikh family. i have not read SGGS from cover to cover (though i'm working on it... it will take some time!) without rehat maryada, i would not have known simple things, such as to stop cutting my hair and to cover my head. i would not have known how anand karaj is performed. i would not have known about amrit sanchar at all.

why do you wash your hands and cover your head before handling a gutka? (i'm assuming you do this...) does it tell you to do so in SGGS? if so, please quote where because this poor moorakh hasn't come across it yet.

do you see what i'm getting at? if we lived in a utopia of brahmgyanis and saints, no one would need any external help. but we don't. we live in a world where the vast majority of people are struggling just to learn the basics. so what's wrong in having some assistance?

 

[kilemba]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

My grandfather married out of race, he raised us to believe in sikhism, Caste /Race should not be used as an excuse . This is especially from Sikhs who are born in India, Jat-Ramgharia-Khatri-Namdari are all sikhs but we always are asked our surnames in order to identify ourselves, I believe thats why Khalsa was created to break us free from this form of thought.

Raj kharega Khalsa

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

So, if it's not in the SGGS to wash your hands and cover your hair before handling Gutka, then why do we do it?

This is a very interesting conversation to me because I can see how a person feels they need a rule book but it doesn't seem like Guru Nanak thought a person needs a rule book. My question is this: If the Gurus did not think it was important enough to set these kinds rules (which could be seen as ritual), then why do we need it? If they had of believed it was necessary or good, wouldn't they have written one? Doesn't Guru Nanak give lots of advice on conduct when he talks over and over again about keeping your mind on God, chanting the name, loving every being, etc?

Why do we feel we need a rule book, like the Hadith and doctrines of Christian churches, if the Gurus Nanak did not see fit to provide that? It's not that they didn't have time -- the SGGS is over 1,400 long! If they thought we needed to live like that -- according to a rigid code -- why didn't they take a few pages and put that in?

It seems to me that much of Guru Nanak's message was/is about NOT living according to a particular code like the Muslims in their rituals,, etc. But then, I am still busy falling in love with him so I may have missed it or just not gotten there yet.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Am I the only one that sees how much humans seem to want to add to the message of their Messenger? It seems like the pure message is never enough for us. We want to add this and that and its almost always some sort of rule book. When you look at different faiths you can see it in almost every one of them. The messenger, or prophet, or messiah comes and gives a message and soon after there's a meeting. Then after the meeting there's a book of rules that is supposed to define what the message of the messenger really meant -- all the things that the Messenger left out of the message (for whatever reason). Even though the messenger already gave the message. Like we, as humans, aren't capable of taking the message and following it to our own understanding with the help of Waheguru. We always seem to want to fix things that aren't broken.

JMHO

LOL

 

[Lee]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

So, if it's not in the SGGS to wash your hands and cover your hair before handling Gutka, then why do we do it?

Heh that's an easy one to answer. It's a respect thing, and each culture has differant ways of showing respect.

I often talk about covering of the head. I'm sure that God does not mind wether we walk around bare headed or not, but it is us that needs to show respect by doing this.

In England it is considered disrespectfull not to uncover the head in a Christian church, or when we see a funeral procesion, it is the proper thing to do to take ones hat off as it passes.

So what is correct? Heh I guess it all depends on ones culture huh!

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

So, if it's not in the SGGS to wash your hands and cover your hair before handling Gutka, then why do we do it?

This is a very interesting conversation to me because I can see how a person feels they need a rule book but it doesn't seem like Guru Nanak thought a person needs a rule book. My question is this: If the Gurus did not think it was important enough to set these kinds rules (which could be seen as ritual), then why do we need it? If they had of believed it was necessary or good, wouldn't they have written one? Doesn't Guru Nanak give lots of advice on conduct when he talks over and over again about keeping your mind on God, chanting the name, loving every being, etc?

Why do we feel we need a rule book, like the Hadith and doctrines of Christian churches, if the Gurus Nanak did not see fit to provide that? It's not that they didn't have time -- the SGGS is over 1,400 long! If they thought we needed to live like that -- according to a rigid code -- why didn't they take a few pages and put that in?

It seems to me that much of Guru Nanak's message was/is about NOT living according to a particular code like the Muslims in their rituals,, etc. But then, I am still busy falling in love with him so I may have missed it or just not gotten there yet.

SGGS is not a rule book. this does not mean that we do not need a code to follow. there are other writings, by Guru ji, by his associates, by his first followers... these writings lay out our code. no, they are not the divine words of God. yes, they are still important. they lay out basic standards of behavior for Sikhs.

i apologize if this seems too "muslim" or what have you, but i think every society has and needs rules. we're not perfect beings, we're humans. we mess up. a LOT! we function better in society if we have a certain expectation for our behavior. this is why countries have laws. and this is why religions have rules.

don't get me wrong, i'm not advocating for a suffocating kind of sharia or anything... the rehat maryada is basic. it's easy to follow. i don't know why people want to struggle so much with such simple, basic rules for living.

i understand not wanting to "follow rules". i lived most of my life as a rebel, who questioned authority at every turn. but sometimes, one realizes that there IS an authority worth listening to. i guess that's what happened to me when i met my Guru.

 

[flore]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Hi guys, talking about that issue, I would like to know if you would agree to marry a non Sikh man/women and why could this be a problem if he/she respect your believes and practices?
And do you think there could be a problem for a non sikh people who love you to understand you..
Thank.. Wish you all a beautiful day

 

[kds1980]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Hi guys, talking about that issue, I would like to know if you would agree to marry a non Sikh man/women and why could this be a problem if he/she respect your believes and practices?
And do you think there could be a problem for a non sikh people who love you to understand you..
Thank.. Wish you all a beautiful day

In sikhism there are many practices which a person of another religion will not accept.for example if a sikh marries a muslim then ofcourse a muslim spouse will want to cook halal meat in house
while it is forbidden in sikhism similarly a devout hindu wants to do mundan( head shaving ceremony of his /her religion) of his/her children.These practices are not acceptable in sikhism so its better
to marry within religion

also I don't know much about west but in india it is almost always a woman who ends up giving her religion after inter religious marriage.children take father's religion.So woman should keep this thing in mind especially in india

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

My husband and I were both Christians when I decided to embrace Sikhi. It was frightening for him at first because of the Christian teaching that only Christians can get into heaven. But after we talked a while and he started reading gurbani with me, he realized how much reverence and love for God was expressed in Sikhi and he accepted my change. It is not a problem now. We read the Bible together and we read SGGS together. I pray with him and he mediatates from time to time with me. Rituals and devisions between people are just man made and they can be overcome with love, wisdom, and understanding.

I think the only problem would be in instances such as the previous poster explained -- where members of either religion are very rigid in following religious ritual. Fortunately, there is no hair cutting and such in Christianity so my husband and I haved worked it out well. It's actually nice to have things to share with each other. He even helps me with my dastar -- LOL. He watches the videos and tries to help me get it on right.

Talk about the blind leading the blind! LOL

Love is what you make it, I think. When the ritual becomes more important than the one it was designed to serve then its time to drop it.

 

[flore]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

well.. i don't think there is a western way of thiking concerning that sort of issue.. but it should perhaps interrogate the place of women and the traditions or use...
I'm not married but my friend is muslim and I myself atheistic; that's his choice, and this lead to really deep and rich discussion.. i think that this may also be a richness for children to grow in two different way of thinking and in tolerance and interest on the parent part..
Don't you think that differences like this and the different compromises in order to understand the other and respect his believes should lead to more deep things than problems?..

 

[kds1980]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

well.. i don't think there is a western way of thiking concerning that sort of issue.. but it should perhaps interrogate the place of women and the traditions or use...
I'm not married but my friend is muslim and I myself atheistic; that's his choice, and this lead to really deep and rich discussion.. i think that this may also be a richness for children to grow in two different way of thinking and in tolerance and interest on the parent part..
Don't you think that differences like this and the different compromises in order to understand the other and respect his believes should lead to more deep things than problems?..

Well atheist are different.There are plenty of atheists withinreligions they just don't disclose it to their society.

Also according to islam a muslim man can only marry a muslim,*** or christian women
so if a muslim man marries an atheist he is going agaist his religion.If in future he starts taking his religion seriously then he will obviously put pressure on his non muslim wife to convert

 

[flore]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I totally agree with you, Carolin..
I think that when love is understood as giving to the other and being happy of his happiness, religion could only be a way of talking and thinking and never obstacle.. as you said, the friging worshippers that are stick to their religion and exclude all other kind of thinking are not real believers.. at least, i think they miss the message of any sacred text.; But i also understood that this could be difficult for people to open themselves when the are judge for their believes by others who simply don't know anything about this believe.. ignorance is the best creator of gaps and defiance between people..and tolerance is not teaching to children since their yound age, most of the time... each time i'm thinking about this i'm really sad being useless to help changing this way of thinking that seems to be much more like the norm in human nature...

 

[flore]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Good evening, kds 1980 (since i don't know your name)
i have deep respect for any believe and custom. but don't you think there is other reason behind this? i mean, why is it written in different text that worshippers of a certain religion can only marry the one who worship the same faith?? what were the political, social, human right situation when these religion born?? if it's written in many sacred text that tolerance and open mind are essential.. why could this include to built common life with a person who think differently than you??

 

[kds1980]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Good evening, kds 1980 (since i don't know your name)
i have deep respect for any believe and custom. but don't you think there is other reason behind this? i mean, why is it written in different text that worshippers of a certain religion can only marry the one who worship the same faith?? what were the political, social, human right situation when these religion born?? if it's written in many sacred text that tolerance and open mind are essential.. why could this include to built common life with a person who think differently than you??

Dear Flore

My name is KAnwardeep singh

A person could think differently at present but there is no gurantee that the person will remain same in future.Let me tell you one thing .Many people start taking religion seriously
in the later stage of life.At that time there is good chance that they will put pressure on their spouse because of religion.So don't think that a person's thinking is constant.I was non religious then i become religious now who knows that whether in future I will be religious or fanatic or even become non religious.so its better to marry within religion if you love your religion.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

if one wishes to follow only the spiritual aspects of sikhi without caring for the code of conduct, i do not believe it is appropriate to call oneself a sikh. ...
... if you have not made such a commitment, feel free to do as you like, but please don't tell those of us who follow our Guru that we are wrong for doing so.

I wonder if you can see the double standard in your statements?

On the one hand you find it appropriate enough for you to judge whether or not another person should call themselves a Sikh according to your own perceptions of Sikhi, and yet you don't want anybody to question your beliefs. I think there are probably people out there, like me, that see conflicts between the Guru's teaching and the rehat maryada and consider the latter writings of men, no different than the doctrines of any other religion including the Hadith of Islam and the Doctrines of any of the 35,000 + protestant Christian faiths. If those people are following that belief and are remembering the name of God as the Guru teaches, then who has the right to say whether or not they should call themselves Sikh? Who has the right to say whether or not they are baptized and are Khalsa?

And why is it okay for some to judge but not others?

 

[flore]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Dear Kanwardeep,
I'm sorry to tell you that you absolutely didn't convince me ))... I'm the same age than you, more or less (28) and I don't think people could change totally.. I mean, If you have an open mind, I think that could happen to this mind is an enlargement to more and more thought and beliefs..
People change , surely, like the river or the leaves of threes. but the river and the threes are still the same in their essence...so does people and essence of thoughts..
We can perhaps be afraid of what the future will be.. but these fear shouldn't be put onto things or people that we don't know.. that we could be afraid to feel..
Religion is part of you and give you strength, I'm sure about this, but this is not a sort of flag that you have to wave all the time to protect yourself, don't you think

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I wonder if you can see the double standard in your statements?

On the one hand you find it appropriate enough for you to judge whether or not another person should call themselves a Sikh according to your own perceptions of Sikhi, and yet you don't want anybody to question your beliefs. I think there are probably people out there, like me, that see conflicts between the Guru's teaching and the rehat maryada and consider the latter writings of men, no different than the doctrines of any other religion including the Hadith of Islam and the Doctrines of any of the 35,000 + protestant Christian faiths. If those people are following that belief and are remembering the name of God as the Guru teaches, then who has the right to say whether or not they should call themselves Sikh? Who has the right to say whether or not they are baptized and are Khalsa?

And why is it okay for some to judge but not others?

i appologize for my first statement... i was irritated and spoke out of impatience instead of thinking about what i was saying.

please forgive and disregard. i am no one to judge anyone.

please do as you like.

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Good evening, kds 1980 (since i don't know your name)
i have deep respect for any believe and custom. but don't you think there is other reason behind this? i mean, why is it written in different text that worshippers of a certain religion can only marry the one who worship the same faith?? what were the political, social, human right situation when these religion born?? if it's written in many sacred text that tolerance and open mind are essential.. why could this include to built common life with a person who think differently than you??

i'm sorry if you have read this before, but in my beginners opinion, it describes why a sikh should marry a sikh.


ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥
dhan pir ėhi na ākhī*an bahan ikthė ho*ė.
They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.

ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥
Ėk jot du*ė mūrtī dhan pir kahī*ai so*ė. ||3||
They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. ||3||

(SGGS p.788)

for beginners like myself, it would be difficult to achieve such a union of souls without sharing our souls in every way, including our faith. Sikhi is central to the lives of my husband and myself. we plan our day around our nitnem and meditation. we make many major decisions based on our faith, based on the advice of our Guru. i do not believe we could be as close as we are, nor could we withstand the difficulty of a cross-cultural marriage so easily, without sharing that faith.

this is only my opinion and experience, based on my understanding of Guru sahib's words.

i hope it helps to see where we are coming from when we believe in the maryada that a sikh should marry a sikh.

sorry if this offends.

 

[carolineislands]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

i appologize for my first statement... i was irritated and spoke out of impatience instead of thinking about what i was saying. ... .

Wow -- I do the same thing! I guess we're all human.

 

[singhbj]

Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Once a Sikh was plastering his wall with mud. Drops of dirty water from his hands soiled Guru Gobind Singh ji's robes. Guru Sahib said, "Someone give him A SLAP. He who does so will be blessed." At this, all the Sikhs, who were sitting there, jumped on the poor Sikh. Some gave him as many as five slaps, some eight, some ten, until the sikh was almost unconscious. Guru Maharaj asked Singhs "i asked you to slap him only once,then why did you all hit your Gurmukh Bhai?''. Sikhs replied that we are always willing to follow your command.

Guru Sahib said, this GurSikh is very poor and is of marriageable age "He who gives this sikh the hand of his daughter, will be blessed." At this, all of them slipped away. Nobody spoke.

"O Sikhs," said the Guru Sahib, "if you obey, you should obey all instructions, and not that you obey one and ignore the other. It seems that the first instruction to slap was found easy, while the one to offer a daughter was found difficult to carry out. You should have thought why so many started beating him? Had he committed a murder? So what if a drop of dirty water fell on my clothes? And if you plead that you slapped him under instruction of the Guru, then you should have given him only one slap. Those who beat him, should have thought that if someone had given him one slap already, he should not have been dealt the second one. When the Guru's instruction to give one slap had been carried out, why deal additional slaps? Why did you give him countless number of slaps ? You have beaten him so much that you have pushed him close to death. All slaps above one have been dealt by you under your own desire and (not out of my orders)." — from Parchian Sewadas.

Source: TuhiTu - Sikh Sakhis: June 2007

I heard in Sadh Sangat after a while a Gursikh from Kabul came forward and gave his daughter's hand in marriage to the Gursikh.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh