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Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

Have You Married Out of Your Caste/Race/Tribe? Why or Why Not?

  • Yes

    Votes: 113 38.4%
  • No

    Votes: 181 61.6%

  • Total voters
    294

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
44
INDIA
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

I earn enough to keep myself happy...I don't rely on anyone for money nor will I ever. He has money-just not as much as my family (without trying to sound too up myself!)

Kiran I have lot respect for you But please don't brag.if you marry your the person you love and for the sake of your children and husband you have to leave your job for time being then will you refuse it?So as I said in above post marrying a qualified,hardworking,dedicated person man is best decision
I hope your partner is like this
 

KiranC

SPNer
Apr 28, 2008
57
0
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Kiran I have lot respect for you But please don't brag.if you marry your the person you love and for the sake of your children and husband you have to leave your job for time being then will you refuse it?So as I said in above post marrying a qualified,hardworking,dedicated person man is best decision
I hope your partner is like this
kds1980

I think you have misunderstood what I said. It is my parents view that he doesn't have as much money as me not mine. I do not care for things like that. But yes I work hard and have enough for me to live-that isn't bragging thats the way it is for most working class people.

I wouldn't want to leave my job-I want to work- my partner knows and understands this.

My partner works extremely hard- he is a very talented person and has been working since he was young.
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
44
INDIA
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

OK sorry I misunderstood

But what I am trying to say is that for happy family a husband's good income is necessary.For the time being many women leave their jobs when kids are small and later rejoin it.It depends on families circumstances.then husband's income become major source

And its good that your partner is hardworking
 

KiranC

SPNer
Apr 28, 2008
57
0
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

OK sorry I misunderstood

But what I am trying to say is that for happy family a husband's good income is necessary.For the time being many women leave their jobs when kids are small and later rejoin it.It depends on families circumstances.then husband's income become major source

And its good that your partner is hardworking
Yeh thats true some women do leave work for a while. However, many women also take maternity leave (which is paid for) and then come back to work when it is finished. Its not uncommon to do that now.

Lots of things need to be considered when getting married, but this forum isn't about all of that-it is about caste and whether people think it matters now.

Whats meant to be will be and no-one can stop it really. If i'm not meant to be with my partner then nothing I do will make it happen. And if we are meant to be then in the long run nothing will be able to stop us. Even my dad admitted to that. He said that whats going to happen will happen and nothing and no-one can stop it.
 

pk70

Writer
SPNer
Feb 25, 2008
1,582
627
USA
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Kiran ji and Others

What is love? A technique? First see how much is the guy making then ask the heart to go for otherwise keep the tap on the heart and let it fall for other one who has a lot of money?. I think, Kiran just avoided guys from other faiths and then just fell for him. I am not in favor of this trading in love. Some one was talking about "orphan" it is sheerly display of how blindly preferences are given to materialistic things to virtues. No one is asking how deeply he cares about Kiran,or what can he do if she decides only to marry him. In love, only strength and selfishness should be in question not that mean kind of money status because these are needs of hypocrites world in which people keep their marriage intact even when there is no love exists because just money works as glue for the marriage. That is not love, or marriage but "compromise" as we do it with other evils too. Sorry I couldn't stand cheap shots. Thats all.
 

KulwantK

SPNer
Oct 31, 2007
164
40
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Sat Nam, everyone!
There are various ways to approach this. Let us look at things in as objective a manner as we can.

Caste should not be an issue. The abolishment of caste is of paramount importance with us. However, considerations of it still come up in things like marriage. Why is this so?

Cultural customs can be hard to let go of. Parents are oftenly concerned with caste for social/cultural reasons, and they often really believe they are looking out for the best interests of the family as a whole, but sadly, oftenly fail to realize that they also need to bear in mind what will be the happiest thing for their children, especially grown adult children who are discerning enough to make up their own minds.

There is something else we have to be aware of. This is going to sound rather cold-hearted, and if it is offensive to anyone, I apologize-- I do not wish to upset or offend anyone, especially on such a personal matter as marriage; but we must remember that in its original forms all over the world marriage had nothing to do with love, romance, the personal thoughts, personalities, feelings or opinions of the parties to be married but had everything to do with the unification of two families, property ownership matters, economics and the children resulting from the marriage. People were viewed (and this happens still today, sadly enough) more as commodities than as individual expressions of God and Guru's creativity.

So many marriages end in divorce and the resulting child custody concerns (and sometimes battles) that many people, at least in America and Europe, suggest that a pre-nuptual agreement be drawn up between the parties as to how to divide the assets should a divorce occur, before the marriage takes place. You see, in Europe and America most marriages end in divorce- 50% of all first marriages end up so, and 75% of all second marriages end up so. I am not sure of such statistics in India, so I cannot speak for that.

I do know that one reason for such sad statistics is that many people just do not know how to commit to something as important as marriage. Perhaps this is one reason why many parents wish to choose their childrens marriage partners for them. Perhaps there are some other dynamics going on here that have not been previously examined.

Sometimes parents wish to live vicariously through their children, no matter what the culture. So, of course, they might be more concerned with the social standing of prospective marriage partners for their children than with the childrens happiness. This often results in whatever dysfunctions of the families of the marrying parties being carried over into the new marriage.

How to break this sort of cycle?

Firstly, see why the parents are not being respectful of their childrens wishes. Maybe they do not see that they are being disrespectful. Perhaps there are some hidden reasons that need to be brought out and discussed in a calm way. Maybe they had hidden issues with their parents or upbringing. If one parent or the other gets upset or raises his or her voice during the discussion, you will know that there is an issue there that needs to be explored. Sometimes, interestingly enough, it is as if the roles of parent/child get reversed and we have to reassure our parents that we are trying to keep their considerations in mind, and that we do not want to lose them and that we love them dearly, but we also have to be true to our own hearts, as well.

Secondly, from what I have seen money is a major issue. Of course parents want their children to do well in the workplace, and for their children's spouses who work to make a good living; this is understandable. Perhaps these parents could be reassured that money matters are being taken into consideration by the couple who wish to wed. Indeed, it has been found that when couples can make sound financial plans and stick to them, a divorce is much less likely to occur.

Thirdly, we can remind the parents that the Gurus sought to get rid of the inequities of the caste system for a very good reason: God loves us all equally, and so we should too, for that is what God and Guru would love for us to do; Guru's Love is really what makes everything happen, anyway.

Love works from compassion, not fear. If you look at all the difficulties of the question of marriage, you will soon see they all stem from fear.

Pray to God and Guru about it all, keep compassion in your hearts, and know that, even there may be some difficulties to deal with, things will turn out for the best, if you understand your heart. When in doubt, take a Hukam. Guru will always set you on the right way!
Wishing you all the best!
Wahe Guru
Kulwant
 

KiranC

SPNer
Apr 28, 2008
57
0
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Kiran ji and Others

What is love? A technique? First see how much is the guy making then ask the heart to go for otherwise keep the tap on the heart and let it fall for other one who has a lot of money?. I think, Kiran just avoided guys from other faiths and then just fell for him. I am not in favor of this trading in love. Some one was talking about "orphan" it is sheerly display of how blindly preferences are given to materialistic things to virtues. No one is asking how deeply he cares about Kiran,or what can he do if she decides only to marry him. In love, only strength and selfishness should be in question not that mean kind of money status because these are needs of hypocrites world in which people keep their marriage intact even when there is no love exists because just money works as glue for the marriage. That is not love, or marriage but "compromise" as we do it with other evils too. Sorry I couldn't stand cheap shots. Thats all.
Hahahaha i'm sorry but 'I think, Kiran just avoided guys from other faiths and then just fell for him.'

is not true at all. It just so happens the guy I fell in love with was the same religion as me.

Like I said before-money doesn't matter to me-he works and I work and thats good enough for me.
 

KiranC

SPNer
Apr 28, 2008
57
0
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Sat Nam, everyone!
There are various ways to approach this. Let us look at things in as objective a manner as we can.

Caste should not be an issue. The abolishment of caste is of paramount importance with us. However, considerations of it still come up in things like marriage. Why is this so?

Cultural customs can be hard to let go of. Parents are oftenly concerned with caste for social/cultural reasons, and they often really believe they are looking out for the best interests of the family as a whole, but sadly, oftenly fail to realize that they also need to bear in mind what will be the happiest thing for their children, especially grown adult children who are discerning enough to make up their own minds.

There is something else we have to be aware of. This is going to sound rather cold-hearted, and if it is offensive to anyone, I apologize-- I do not wish to upset or offend anyone, especially on such a personal matter as marriage; but we must remember that in its original forms all over the world marriage had nothing to do with love, romance, the personal thoughts, personalities, feelings or opinions of the parties to be married but had everything to do with the unification of two families, property ownership matters, economics and the children resulting from the marriage. People were viewed (and this happens still today, sadly enough) more as commodities than as individual expressions of God and Guru's creativity.

So many marriages end in divorce and the resulting child custody concerns (and sometimes battles) that many people, at least in America and Europe, suggest that a pre-nuptual agreement be drawn up between the parties as to how to divide the assets should a divorce occur, before the marriage takes place. You see, in Europe and America most marriages end in divorce- 50% of all first marriages end up so, and 75% of all second marriages end up so. I am not sure of such statistics in India, so I cannot speak for that.

I do know that one reason for such sad statistics is that many people just do not know how to commit to something as important as marriage. Perhaps this is one reason why many parents wish to choose their childrens marriage partners for them. Perhaps there are some other dynamics going on here that have not been previously examined.

Sometimes parents wish to live vicariously through their children, no matter what the culture. So, of course, they might be more concerned with the social standing of prospective marriage partners for their children than with the childrens happiness. This often results in whatever dysfunctions of the families of the marrying parties being carried over into the new marriage.

How to break this sort of cycle?

Firstly, see why the parents are not being respectful of their childrens wishes. Maybe they do not see that they are being disrespectful. Perhaps there are some hidden reasons that need to be brought out and discussed in a calm way. Maybe they had hidden issues with their parents or upbringing. If one parent or the other gets upset or raises his or her voice during the discussion, you will know that there is an issue there that needs to be explored. Sometimes, interestingly enough, it is as if the roles of parent/child get reversed and we have to reassure our parents that we are trying to keep their considerations in mind, and that we do not want to lose them and that we love them dearly, but we also have to be true to our own hearts, as well.

Secondly, from what I have seen money is a major issue. Of course parents want their children to do well in the workplace, and for their children's spouses who work to make a good living; this is understandable. Perhaps these parents could be reassured that money matters are being taken into consideration by the couple who wish to wed. Indeed, it has been found that when couples can make sound financial plans and stick to them, a divorce is much less likely to occur.

Thirdly, we can remind the parents that the Gurus sought to get rid of the inequities of the caste system for a very good reason: God loves us all equally, and so we should too, for that is what God and Guru would love for us to do; Guru's Love is really what makes everything happen, anyway.

Love works from compassion, not fear. If you look at all the difficulties of the question of marriage, you will soon see they all stem from fear.

Pray to God and Guru about it all, keep compassion in your hearts, and know that, even there may be some difficulties to deal with, things will turn out for the best, if you understand your heart. When in doubt, take a Hukam. Guru will always set you on the right way!
Wishing you all the best!
Wahe Guru
Kulwant
KulwantK

You said alot of things that made alot of sense!

However, sometimes its hard to explore the issues especially when you get told that 'you are too young to understand everything. you just need to accept the way things are' I think I am a fairly educated person and i'm not a child.

Sometimes the only person who knows whats best for you is you.
 

KiranC

SPNer
Apr 28, 2008
57
0
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

pk70 I have had time to think about what you wrote.

Fair enough you think the way you do but in all honesty-money makes the world go round. Thats just the way it is-its unfortunate yes...but that doesnt make it any less true.

I also do not like the fact that you said I avoided people of other faiths- i'm trying to promote equality and you make me sound racist :S
 

pk70

Writer
SPNer
Feb 25, 2008
1,582
627
USA
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

quote
I also do not like the fact that you said I avoided people of other faiths- i'm trying to promote equality and you make me sound racist :S

Kiran ji

I cannot lower myself to think for a moment that you ever made race or religion a base in your any choice; if my words sounded that way, I am extremely sorry because that is the last thing I want to say to any one. My assumption that you cared about your father and avoided falling for guy coming from other religion was untrue, as assumption are usually prone to be untrue. In my mind, the issue was falling in love. When I see people talk about materialistic things and find them advocating that these materialistic things should be in mind while falling in love, I feel, they either never have experience of falling in love or they have redesigned their minds to look first materialistic aspect before falling in love; to me it appears pretty strange.
 

kilemba

SPNer
Mar 17, 2008
24
2
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Caste/Race is and should not be basis for marriage in sikhism, Religion should be the basis for this holy union. As long as both partners believe in Sikhism, then this union is deemed to last regardless of caste/race.
 

KiranC

SPNer
Apr 28, 2008
57
0
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Caste/Race is and should not be basis for marriage in sikhism, Religion should be the basis for this holy union. As long as both partners believe in Sikhism, then this union is deemed to last regardless of caste/race.
Well said! Now...how to make the rest of the world see it like that...!
 

singhbj

SPNer
Nov 4, 2007
515
118
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kiran C ji,

I don't know how you met your friend but if in the back of your mind before getting involved there were some reservations like in general do's & don't.

For example no black, pakistani, gora guy is right for u and family then what is wrong in choosing & getting married to someone whose Ramgarhia.

There are a lot many Ramgarhia guys in U.K to choose from. Moreso ur parents approve of that !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
 

KiranC

SPNer
Apr 28, 2008
57
0
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kiran C ji,

I don't know how you met your friend but if in the back of your mind before getting involved there were some reservations like in general do's & don't.

For example no black, pakistani, gora guy is right for u and family then what is wrong in choosing & getting married to someone whose Ramgarhia.

There are a lot many Ramgarhia guys in U.K to choose from. Moreso ur parents approve of that !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
Ok hold up-generally when I meet people I don't ask them their caste because it doesn't matter to me.

Would you rather i married a wife beating alcoholic gambling ramgaria or a decent guy whose jatt?

Me and my partner were friends and things developed from there-should I have just not talked to him because he was a different caste?

The guy I chose isn't ramgaria...that was not intentional-it just happened. You fall in love with who you fall in love with and if you compromise that love by looking at caste etc then it isnt really love. And if you believe that you can compromise in love then you haven't been in love.

Why does caste matter so much to you? Is it so important that you want to see people suffer over it?

Do you want me to go around asking everyone I meet what caste they are and then stay away from them because they aren't ramgarhia?
 

singhbj

SPNer
Nov 4, 2007
515
118
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Ok hold up-generally when I meet people I don't ask them their caste because it doesn't matter to me.

Would you rather i married a wife beating alcoholic gambling ramgaria or a decent guy whose jatt?

Me and my partner were friends and things developed from there-should I have just not talked to him because he was a different caste?

The guy I chose isn't ramgaria...that was not intentional-it just happened. You fall in love with who you fall in love with and if you compromise that love by looking at caste etc then it isnt really love. And if you believe that you can compromise in love then you haven't been in love.

Why does caste matter so much to you? Is it so important that you want to see people suffer over it?

Do you want me to go around asking everyone I meet what caste they are and then stay away from them because they aren't ramgarhia?

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Now stop, you are being prejudice. I know Ramgarhia's who are Amritdhari Gursikhs based in England and my school mates too were Ramgarhia's, they are not Gursikhs but still they are "not wife beating, alcoholic gamblers".

What is done is done, you fell in love, but what now ?

Frankly speaking, you are blaming caste but from what is obvious, trouble is because of MONEY.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
 

KiranC

SPNer
Apr 28, 2008
57
0
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Now stop, you are being prejudice. I know Ramgarhia's who are Amritdhari Gursikhs based in England and my school mates too were Ramgarhia's, they are not Gursikhs but still they are "not wife beating, alcoholic gamblers".

What is done is done, you fell in love, but what now ?

Frankly speaking, you are blaming caste but from what is obvious, trouble is because of MONEY.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
I wasn't referring to all the ramgarhias in the world...i was trying to make a point. NO-caste is the issue...thats what this whole thing begun with...if money was the problem I would of joined a forum that was titled-'marriage and money' but I didn't did i?! No offence but I know my life and whats goes on better than you do.

oh and as for what I am going to do now i'm not sure...thats why I was here.

Please do not presume to tell me that money and not caste is my main problem because quite frankly you just simply do not know.
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
56
London, UK
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Meh marry who you want, caste don't matter, religoin don't matter, it's your life.
 

singhbj

SPNer
Nov 4, 2007
515
118
Re: How many sikhs have married out of Caste/Race

Lee ji,

Have you or did ur ancestors come from China.

As Lee is a typcal Chinese surname, you remind me of the most famous lee i.e Bruce Lee.

Sorry this is not to offend you but to illustrate that when you use a surname or an ethinic name you are usually recognised in society in that aspect.

When you are Baptised thus you become a Singh or Kaur and use them as a Surname which usually defines that you are a Sikh.

Most of the people don't even use Singh or Kaur in their names but still create a lot of fuss and deceive people in the name of Equality (no caste difference).

The caste is similar to class which you should be aware of. As high class people don't associate, socialise or get married to a low class or some other class in general. The crux of the matter is MONEY (financial or social standing).

Which is hard for people to ignore specially at the time of marriage !

Hope you got some insight on the topic.
 
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