Hard Talk How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/race?

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4HHT_V294Co

 

[Chinu]

How Many Sikhs Have Married Out Of Caste/Race?

Personal understanding is:
Very proudly i can say that, not a single "Sikh" in the whole world have married out caste/race. 0

Because "Sikhs" knows this very well, that their is only one single caste/race in the whole world -- that is "Humanbeings", So what is "out of caste" ?

"Ek noor te sab jag upja, kaun bhale ko mande"

"Sikhs" knows there is not a thing like "Out of Caste" in this whole world, they are never give value to such concepts, this concept is for the people who believe in such things, not for the "Sikhs"

The person who believe in the concept of "Out of Caste" is not called as "Sikh"

"Satshriakal"

 

[lionsingh]

100% agree

 

[palaingtha]

Hi all,

Sikhism practices the egalitarian principles of there being no caste/racial distinctions between people. We can all say we don't believe in castism/racism, but the iron test of a Sikh is to whether they have actually married out of caste/race/tribe?

So How many of you have and I would like to here comments one way or the other.

No flaming please.

Please vote here to:

http://www.sikh-history.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002021

PS Vote also if you intend to marry in or out of caste/race.

Reply"

In the matter of inter caste marriages I would say that if a girl marries to a boy of another caste/religion one thing is certain the boy will not accept Sikhism as his religion but stick to his followed religion in the present day. That means the Sikh girl has lowered the dignity of her own religion by marrying into other caste/religion. He will always consider that his religion is superior and more practical for the humanity giving his own arguments. The Sikh girl will have to bow to the utterances of her husband and avoid arguments on the subject of religion. That makes her an inferior human being and whenever she wants to stress the good points of Sikhism she will be opening a new chapter of divorce.
To marry within Sikhism and a boy from Sikh family with any family name like Malhotra, Gulati or Mann etc. is OK as per our religion.

 

[Harry Haller]

To marry within Sikhism and a boy from Sikh family with any family name like Malhotra, Gulati or Mann etc. is OK as per our religion.

yes, names are much more important than personal qualities

 

[Luckysingh]

Names are important, especially the ones that most punjabis have that originate from clans and help determine your caste.
This was the very reason that we were to use the universal name SINGH for boys and Kaur for girls.

Sadly, I have been to some Gurdwaras here and made a small donation etc.. and then the Gyani or whoever will offer to do a receipt for you and ask you your surname. - To which I reply S-I-N-G-H. Yet, they will insist on what is your family name or the name after Singh!!!

This does irritate me, even though I will insist that SINGH is my surname, Although like most of us my birth certificate does have 'Singh' as the middle name. The last name is our so called 'clan' name that associates us to our caste from so and so pind back in Punjab!!
--To me it's all a load of **** and is not part of sikhism.- Full Stop!

 

[palaingtha]

Names are important, especially the ones that most punjabis have that originate from clans and help determine your caste.
This was the very reason that we were to use the universal name SINGH for boys and Kaur for girls.

Sadly, I have been to some Gurdwaras here and made a small donation etc.. and then the Gyani or whoever will offer to do a receipt for you and ask you your surname. - To which I reply S-I-N-G-H. Yet, they will insist on what is your family name or the name after Singh!!!

This does irritate me, even though I will insist that SINGH is my surname, Although like most of us my birth certificate does have 'Singh' as the middle name. The last name is our so called 'clan' name that associates us to our caste from so and so pind back in Punjab!!
--To me it's all a load of **** and is not part of sikhism.- Full Stop!

Reply:-

Lucky Singh Ji, Gur Fateh,

I am of the opinion that there is no harm in giving your family name as affix to your name. Our Gurus have said that one must not attach pride to his high caste. In Sukhmani Sahib the 5th. Master has said in sixth Ashtpadi that, "Jeh Parsad teri niki jaat, so prabh simar sada din raat" viz. If the God has given you a beautiful caste, then remember HIM day and night. If the Guru ji had wanted us not to attach any significance to a family name then he would not have said that in Sukhmani Sahib.
Our Gurus are also known by their castes. The only need in the matter was/is that we should not be too proud of our so called higher caste and say bad things about those of so called lower castes. "Ahankaar Nahi karna". We should not look down upon the so called lower caste Sikhs or of other religions. That is the essence of the matter.

 

[Harry Haller]

Reply:-

Lucky Singh Ji, Gur Fateh,

I am of the opinion that there is no harm in giving your family name as affix to your name. Our Gurus have said that one must not attach pride to his high caste. In Sukhmani Sahib the 5th. Master has said in sixth Ashtpadi that, "Jeh Parsad teri niki jaat, so prabh simar sada din raat" viz. If the God has given you a beautiful caste, then remember HIM day and night. If the Guru ji had wanted us not to attach any significance to a family name then he would not have said that in Sukhmani Sahib.
Our Gurus are also known by their castes. The only need in the matter was/is that we should not be too proud of our so called higher caste and say bad things about those of so called lower castes. "Ahankaar Nahi karna". We should not look down upon the so called lower caste Sikhs or of other religions. That is the essence of the matter.

People will manipulate, if you give them an arm they will take a leg, and there will always be those that hide behind

The only need in the matter was/is that we should not be too proud of our so called higher caste and say bad things about those of so called lower castes

in one breathe and then say

To marry within Sikhism and a boy from Sikh family with any family name like Malhotra, Gulati or Mann etc. is OK as per our religion.

Interestingly the very SRM that you quoted to me has something to say about this

CHAPTER X

Article XVI - Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni)

A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are:
a) Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.
b) Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.
c) Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity.
d) Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty,

:sippingcoffeemunda:

p.s. if you could please supply the page number for your quote that would be wonderful, thank you

 

[palaingtha]

People will manipulate, if you give them an arm they will take a leg, and there will always be those that hide behind in one breathe and then say

Interestingly the very SRM that you quoted to me has something to say about this

CHAPTER X

Article XVI - Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni)

A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are:
a) Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.
b) Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.
c) Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity.
d) Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty,

:sippingcoffeemunda:

p.s. if you could please supply the page number for your quote that would be wonderful, thank you

Reply:

The Bani " Jeh parsad teri nikee jaat, so prabh simar sada din raat" is on pp 270 of Guru Granth Sahib.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Hmm I read most of the responses here... my own question on this, because I am interested in the 'race' part.

How many Punjabi Sikhs here would consider marrying a Gori Sikh? Obviously religion would not be an issue... but what about race? And caste would not even come into it since as a Gori I have none!

Just wondering what my chances are as a Gori Sikh because I obviously want to marry a Sikh man. Preferably one who keeps his kesh and wears turban.

 

[Luckysingh]

Hmm I read most of the responses here... my own question on this, because I am interested in the 'race' part.

How many Punjabi Sikhs here would consider marrying a Gori Sikh? Obviously religion would not be an issue... but what about race? And caste would not even come into it since as a Gori I have none!

Just wondering what my chances are as a Gori Sikh because I obviously want to marry a Sikh man. Preferably one who keeps his kesh and wears turban.

I'm sure that most them woud have no problems, especialy here in the west.
My wife has indian,hispanic,italian and german blood ! But we both have red blood.

 

[Rajwinder]

Isnt that a funny question.. if u r really following sikh thing .. then caste/jat/pat doesnt matter. So if this pool says 20 % married out of caste that doesnt make them sikhs just because they married outside their caste and the 80 % which didnt married out of caste it doesnt make them sikh as well .. So the number that u will get will mean this .. 20 % of people ( who "think" they are really following sikh thing ) may be really sikhs and 80 % ( who "think" they are really following sikh thing ) are not actually really sikhs ;-):interestedsingh:

 

[palaingtha]

Isnt that a funny question.. if u r really following sikh thing .. then caste/jat/pat doesnt matter. So if this pool says 20 % married out of caste that doesnt make them sikhs just because they married outside their caste and the 80 % which didnt married out of caste it doesnt make them sikh as well .. So the number that u will get will mean this .. 20 % of people ( who "think" they are really following sikh thing ) may be really sikhs and 80 % ( who "think" they are really following sikh thing ) are not actually really sikhs ;-):interestedsingh:

You may agree with me every body at SPN is obsessed with giving his belief to be the ultimate judgement. It will be better every body posts his reply with due reference to Gurbani.
Some people are addicted to bulldozing their views and that also in a taunting manner. Low intellect!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Reply:

The Bani " Jeh parsad teri nikee jaat, so prabh simar sada din raat" is on pp 270 of Guru Granth Sahib.

Palaingtha ji,

Guru Fateh.

Would you be kind enough to post the whole Shabad with your own understanding and learning of it (no literal translations please) so that, I and other SPNers can learn from your insights about it?

Looking forward to it.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[palaingtha]

Palaingtha ji,

Guru Fateh.

Would you be kind enough to post the whole Shabad with your own understanding and learning of it (no literal translations please) so that, I and other SPNers can learn from your insights about it?

Looking forward to it.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

I will give you quotes from Gurbani in a few days as I am preoccupied with some urgent work.
In the meantime will you please why the Gurus are known as to which gotar they belong. like Bedi, Trehan, Bhalla and Sodhi?

 

[spnadmin]

I will give you quotes from Gurbani in a few days as I am preoccupied with some urgent work.
In the meantime will you please why the Gurus are known as to which gotar they belong. like Bedi, Trehan, Bhalla and Sodhi?

palaingtha ji

I realize you have asked Tejwant the question, not me. However, I must answer. The gotras of the Gurus Sahib are known through the life sketches on the internet or in historical documents and studies. When we refer to, talk about, discuss the Gurus Sahib, their gotras are seldom mentioned. It is Guru Nanak or Guru Nanak Dev ji, and the gotra of Bedi never comes up. A person has to actually do some research to find out these clan names. You ask "why the Gurus are known as to which gotra they belong..." Because history reports the details whether we ask or not. The bad side of this is that gotra identity reinforces fascination with cast identity. The good side, there is a good side, is that it makes it easier to track historical developments; for example, knowing that the lineage of Gurus was not unbroken. What is good about this? More than once a Guru proclaimed the jyote to his successor outside of his own gotra, making it crystal clear that spiritual lineage was more important than clan, tribe, gotra or caste.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I will give you quotes from Gurbani in a few days as I am preoccupied with some urgent work.
In the meantime will you please why the Gurus are known as to which gotar they belong. like Bedi, Trehan, Bhalla and Sodhi?

Palaingatha ji,

Guru Fateh.

I think you misunderstood my post. I never asked you for any quotes but your personal understanding and experience of the whole Shabad whose one liner you quoted in your other post.

I will wait for your insights regarding the whole Shabad with your own interpretation and understanding whenever it is convenient for you to do so.

Now, coming back to your question to me:

In the meantime will you please why the Gurus are known as to which gotar they belong. like Bedi, Trehan, Bhalla and Sodhi?

I hope your guess is as good as mine.

What do you mean by "why the Gurus are known"?
Known by whom?

Now let’s go to the Sikh history that we know of to find some answers or more questions.

Fact#1. Our Gurus never called themselves-Gurus, nor demanded from anyone to address themselves as such.

Fact#2. They gave themselves numbers rather than names with gotars when they wrote Gurbani. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is its proof.

Fact#3. They had all the resources to hire private historians/writers/portrait artists from the well learned community of both Mughals and non-Mughals. But they intentionally did not.

So, let me ask you the question once again, Known by whom?

As a Sikh, I trust my Gurus’ decisions mentioned in fact # 3 and accept them with open arms sans whys and buts.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Brother Onam]

Sat Sri Akaal,
I am detecting a lot of intermingling of 'caste' and 'religion' in these comments. To me, it is so simple; I don't know why there must be confusion.
According to the timeless spiritual guidance of the Nanaks, caste is finished. To marry out of caste, then, would be roundly condoned and encouraged. To marry out of religion would be forbidden to a believer, unless, of course, the mate would embrace Sikhi. Spiritual life is simply a question of obedience to Sacred Truth; Sat Naam.

 

[Kamala]

No I probably will never, due to the fact that the offspring would be confused in traditions etc.
Even if the many Gurus say it's not good to believe in the caste system, many many many Amritdhari Sikhs still follow it.

 

[Harry Haller]

No I probably will never, due to the fact that the offspring would be confused in traditions etc.

or they could end up rejecting traditions and focusing on the truth