Hukamnama-No Different To Reading A Horoscope?

[Harry Haller]

Taranjeetji,

Why would I want my personality to remain intact?, although I am fond of it, in the same way one is fond of an extremely old Range Rover, both are dinosaurs, ancient relics that belong in a scrap heap, impractical, it is only when I catch sight of myself in a mirror, and see the chubby, balding, hairy face looking back at me, I realise that I am not 20 anymore, I realise that one should not be taking a 1994 car through mud and snow, no, it is time, I feel rather like a baby does, I imagine, that is about to be born, I like it here in the womb, its warm, and cosy, and more important, its familiar,

Many thanks for your post Taranjeetji, although really, you do me an injustice with your compliments, everything I know has been beaten into me, with great force, till I could know no different, I admire the purity in people like yourself, and the way that you walk this road out of choice, out of love, happily, I walk this road, because I have walked all the other roads and found a good beating at the end of each one, there is no purity, what has been done, has been done, it is now time to give consideration to a slight ascending, thank you very much for your thoughts

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

And people who look for "answers" to wordly "problems" via Hukmnamahs are not really interested in what the Guru says but how to adapt it to their problem...superficial and surface meanings and connotations of words in Gurbani...a person looking to remember his dead mother gets hukmnamah Poota mata kee asees and thinks..WAH..the Guru knows how i miss my mummy...thats why this Hkmnamah came out..I have dealt with hundreds of such people...they want the Hukmnamah to clearly and in simple punjabi tell them..YES..you will succeed at the interview and get that job..YES you will pass the exam..yes your dad wont pass away in the hospital..etc etc...just like so many have been wanting the Guru to inofrm them that Meat eating is taboo..and daal eating makes the Guru happy beyond description...I too was at this stage once..many many moons ago...I had three of ythe best Universities in hand and couldnt decide which to accept....os I wrote all 3 on pieces of paper, went to the Gurdwara did an ardass and took a hukmnamah...and picked the paper...OOPS..the first one had the Uni i really didnt want THAT MUCH...so i rolled up the 3 papers..did another ardass..took another Hukmanmah..and opened the second piece of paper..OOPS again..wrong uni...so i went at it for a THIRD TIME..and Lo and behold Guru gave the RIGHT ANSWER..his Hukmanmah directed me to "choose" the uni I really loved !!...I went through the same process when choosing my subjects to major in...and when deciding what job to accept from the invites....so YES I beleive I did every step according to Gurus Hukm !! only NOW i know BETTER...

 

[BhagatSingh]

I thought about this thread till the early hours, the argument I was trying to make was that there was enough pragmatic information in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to explain most things, I have now come up with rational explanations for most of the Sikhi traditions, hair, booze, etc, and everything makes a sense without even a tiny drop of spiritualism or mysticism, however, although I live life pretty much as I wish, and balance that with an attempt to enrich Creation with as of my input as I can, and that is my life, but there is something missing, a void that never gets filled, I attempt to smooth it over with help from the five thieves, but as I start filling it, it empties, filling a void like this with the thieves help is a pointless and destructive task, yet, to embrace the mystical and spiritual aspect of Sikhism, which would be the logical next step, is closed to me, why? and it is this question I asked myself last night, Why is this step closed to me, surely it could be the most enriching thing I have ever discovered about Sikhism, Surely it is the icing on the cake, to have a full and strong connection established in my head to the essence, so Why not?

The answer is easy, it is fear, I fear the connection, and I fear it because as soon as I have that connection, then me, Harry, must die, the personality that I am, can not continue if this connection goes ahead, for most of my lifestyle would not be in line with a complete connection, I would certainly become the person I wish to be, but that person is so far away from who I am, that who I am would cease, and I do not wish to die just yet, I like having the thieves round for a good old party, not often, but sometimes, it is only to my self that I behave like this, to others I am a good sikh, but I am not to myself, so there it is, Fear.........

Harry ji,
How did you come to that realization?

 

[Ambarsaria]

I thought about this thread till the early hours, the argument I was trying to make was that there was enough pragmatic information in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to explain most things, I have now come up with rational explanations for most of the Sikhi traditions, hair, booze, etc, and everything makes a sense without even a tiny drop of spiritualism or mysticism, however, although I live life pretty much as I wish, and balance that with an attempt to enrich Creation with as of my input as I can, and that is my life, but there is something missing, a void that never gets filled, I attempt to smooth it over with help from the five thieves, but as I start filling it, it empties, filling a void like this with the thieves help is a pointless and destructive task, yet, to embrace the mystical and spiritual aspect of Sikhism, which would be the logical next step, is closed to me, why? and it is this question I asked myself last night, Why is this step closed to me, surely it could be the most enriching thing I have ever discovered about Sikhism, Surely it is the icing on the cake, to have a full and strong connection established in my head to the essence, so Why not?

The answer is easy, it is fear, I fear the connection, and I fear it because as soon as I have that connection, then me, Harry, must die, the personality that I am, can not continue if this connection goes ahead, for most of my lifestyle would not be in line with a complete connection, I would certainly become the person I wish to be, but that person is so far away from who I am, that who I am would cease, and I do not wish to die just yet, I like having the thieves round for a good old party, not often, but sometimes, it is only to my self that I behave like this, to others I am a good sikh, but I am not to myself, so there it is, Fear.........

Harry Haller ji the explanation is pretty straightforward and I think I got it. With of course in a sense, it is with various taints of the five thieves I so submit.

The so called five thieves are making a proposition and have stated a case to your soul. They feel a losing battle and so they are in a compromising mindset. Such are saying let us call a truce, don't kill us, life is not all about that. I have some sympathy for them and the reason follows.

Basically at this juncture in your stated description one can take two approaches.

1. Balanced Control of the Thieves

This will let you have continuity to Harry that you have lived with so far. Not only for yourself but also for your relatives and spouse. If you have control and teach the thieves a lesson every once in a while to enforce "Thief Control" you could continue in a steady state continuity of life that you and others can recognize and relate to.

Not the best of best goals in some people's mind but it is so from your brother Ambarsaria and you give something for others to look up to.
​

2. Elimination of the five Thieves

I find this concept actually very dangerous. I may offend some people but I will say what I feel.

This will create a Harry who has discontinuity. A perennial fight to always verify if the thieves are eliminated. How do you know something is not there unless someone else tests you for this, I do not know. So self test is a mirage that many people try to chase in a make believe fashion but it really is a mirage. One cannot be "Judge and Jury".

So how this state plays out. You will be unknowing as anyone wanting to Judge you have to be better than you or at least know what is meant by absolute "Zero" state of all thieves. I do not believe such people exist or at least I don't know any including all that I have met here or outside.

So this is not practical Sikhism that I know of. It is preached pretty heavily but our Gurus never taught us to live sterile lives.

By the way if anyone has achieved stage 2 living, they cannot claim to be so as that is tinge of five thieves that will show up in any such statement.
​

Chill out, maintain and gradually work to improve but don't panic or become idealistic.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ambarsaria ji,

I think your #1 falls in to the same trap as #2, when do you have balance?? "A perennial fight to always verify if there is balanced control" How do you check for such balance without tests? Who will test you?

I think of these things as a continuum, where on one end there is most influence of five thieves possible and on the other end, there is the least influence of five thieves.


Harry ji,
One can tell which mind states and actions are coming from thieves and which ones are genuinely without thiefs. But first One must cultivate the awareness to first recognize the five thieves when they arise during actions and meditation. Then when they do, with further practice of meditation and certain actions, one can settle the mind down (as it is agitated when the five thieves come forth).

Most people don't do this. The five thieves come out (they are not even aware of them) then they simply act with the agitated mind. I think eventually with meditation and acts of humility, one gets better at doing this.


Ambarsaria ji,
You do not need to get special tests. Tests are always present in life, they come and go. The idea is to be prepared for a test by doing small quizzes that are present in everyday life.

Here are my observations on the no-thief state of mind:
I have noticed when Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji starts to suddenly make more sense, not like "I get it" but a sort of bliss that is present with the "I get it" then I find I am in the no-thief state. I think if one can learn to recognize this no-thief state, it might help.

Right when you sneeze there is the no-thief state or when the sneeze is about to come out but is delayed, and but not when it gets delayed too long (then you are wondering "What the f?").

When it is dark and there is some unexpected noise, immediately your attention goes to the noise and to the silence afterwards. Right when this event occurs there is the no-thief state but then fear brings in Haumai...

And if you have been practising meditation. When the mind becomes still and silent, that is the no-thief state.

You just gotta work towards cultivating this state of mind. It is like a basketball player trying to get better at basketball. He notices with somethings he does, he can get a better, quicker and/or more accurate shot. He tries to do those things more, until they become his nature. A coach is going to help him more and is the best option but it is possible to become good on your own or with a book on basketball or listening to good players talk about their practices.

Just as your sports coach need not be the best basketball player. You simply need to find someone who is better than you in controlling their thieves, like a moral coach. Unfortunately, to identify them you already need to be at their level (This is of course true of sports coaches as well. You cannot tell what a good coach is like because you do not know what "good" is yet. That is what you are learning in the first place).

I remember you mention Thich Nhat Hanh once. After you did, I looked him up and listened to one of his talks. He is pretty good. He gave some tips on how to lower Ego levels when acting in human relationships, though certain phrases you say to yourself and others in different situations. Powerful stuff.
How can you say none exist, after you mentioned Thich Nhat Hanh! How was your experience with him?

Gurbani says that if you can come in direct contact with such a Guru, such a moral coach then it will speed up your progress exponentially. But even listening to their talks and practising their tips is great. There is Sant Singh Maskeen (expired but talks are still available), Eckhart Tolle, Mooji, Shinzen Young (whom you can actually come into direct contact with) and lots more (I can't remember them off the top of my head). In the internet age, we have lost direct contact but we have more coaches available to us.

There is also Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Bhagwad Gita, Dao De Ching, amongst others. Books are similar to talks as no direct contact is available with either. They describe the states that need to be cultivated, and often times lead you to them as you read.

they cannot claim to be so as that is tinge of five thieves that will show up in any such statement.

Hahaha that is true to some extent. But our Gurus have made such statements in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. How come you believe them?

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry ji,
How did you come to that realization?

because I am a drama queen, the way to understanding and enlightenment would be too boring without clowns, wolves, dwarfs, thieves, and the obligatory internal struggle complete with grand gestures of death and conflict

 

[Harry Haller]

Gurfateh friends

The answer lies in the three replies by Ambersariaji, Bhagatsinghji and Taranjeetji,

1. Balanced Control of thieves
2. Cultivate periods of non-thief states
3. Ascend but be prepared to descend

Of course this all means nothing unless one is prepared to live by it, the saying 4 steps forward and 1 step backwards comes to mind, but then this has to be better than 4 steps forward and 8 steps backwards, I suppose scenario #2 is 4 steps forward and then another step forward, which does on the face of it, sound impossible, Many Thanks for your help and advice, I will once again retreat to my head to play around with all the many switches and dials, put a few things on a timer setting, pull the fuse out of a few, and nail a few in the on position,

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

1. Balanced Control of thieves
2. Cultivate periods of non-thief states
3. Ascend but be prepared to descend

Veer Ji A Saint is called a Saint for a reason and it is not because he balances for a short period and then prepares to descend.

In punjabi the saying is that 'The cat goes to Haji only after killing 900 mice',perhaps you are only on 750 yet and that is why you are afraid.

 

[Harry Haller]

Veer Ji A Saint is called a Saint for a reason and it is not because he balances for a short period and then prepares to descend.

In punjabi the saying is that 'The cat goes to Haji only after killing 900 mice',perhaps you are only on 750 yet and that is why you are afraid.

That is the subtle difference between us SPji, I have no wish to be a saint, or indeed anything, I just want to live :sippingcoffeemunda:

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veer Ji A Sikh is a Saint-Soldier, I want you to live too ,but you have mistaken death for life but don't worry so has the rest of the world.

 

[Harry Haller]

Spji,

I will be the best sant sipahi I can be, but be careful you do not aspire to be dead whilst you are still alive peacesignkaur

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veer Ji Quote 'The minimum requirement to achieving anything is [simply] to believe that it can be done',you are stubborn that will be an asset tommorow but it is a liability today.

Times up

 

[Harry Haller]

Brother " I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members", Groucho Marx lol

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veer Ji You are just returning to the club of yourself,before you were a member of the club of desire,you are now free !,dance ,make merry, you are your self again, it is as it was intended,I too feel sad sometimes ,thats ok, because it is sadness that gets you there faster than happiness and then you will dance with your hands in the air like Fatman Scoop except without the dollar bills.

 

[Taranjeet singh]

Harry Veer ji,
If my post is suggestive of that you may have to descend unwillingly, I seek your forgiveness. I never meant to state that. We are not psycho analysts. I write very plain English. But written words may sometimes convey to the receiver what one intends to receive.

All that was stated in the post was to suggest that ascending is a very gradual process and and is time consuming and one need not worry about what we say. The path chosen by you would be objectively speaking, a subjective decision of the individual concerned.
If one finds the ascending mode cumbersome one can always come back to the original state ;if one finds that connect is not easily possible. One can imagine that coming back to original state is not or should not be a difficult task. There is no chemical change involved in this.
I would like to share with you further...
Personally speaking. I find it very difficult to have a cold water shower at Amritvella, hence for a person like me it is not possible to rise from a level where I am. All I can do is to read bani and try to understand it and also try to be good human being. That is my outer limit. I have no aspiration beyond this.
I am also not a Nitnemi i.e adhering to the schedule of Five Paaths a day. I am lucky if I can do Jap ji sahib every morning.

But that should not stop me from going a step forward.It would be a personal choice.Tomorrow I may try a cold shower in the morning but if I find inconvenient I would stop. It would be my choice and not anyone else. I would ascend and descend as per my liking. If I can continue further, I would, else I have options. It would be voluntary.

Kindly take my earlier post in that spirit. Who am I to suggest that you may have to descend or that you may apprehend so?
All that was meant was to let you know that if you find that connect is not working well, you have the options to have the garb of personality that you wear now. It is your life ,Sir. You have all the Rights and prerogatives to carry on that you like.

Warm Regards
and Bhul Chuk Mauf

 

[Ambarsaria]

Veer Bhagat Singh ji some comments,

I think your #1 falls in to the same trap as #2, when do you have balance?? "A perennial fight to always verify if there is balanced control" How do you check for such balance without tests? Who will test you?

I think of these things as a continuum, where on one end there is most influence of five thieves possible and on the other end, there is the least influence of five thieves.

Bhagat Singh ji #1 does not fall into the same trap as you are a self judge of relative. If honestly done this is the easiest of all.

Ambarsaria ji,
You do not need to get special tests. Tests are always present in life, they come and go. The idea is to be prepared for a test by doing small quizzes that are present in everyday life.

Here are my observations on the no-thief state of mind:
I have noticed when Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji starts to suddenly make more sense, not like "I get it" but a sort of bliss that is present with the "I get it" then I find I am in the no-thief state. I think if one can learn to recognize this no-thief state, it might help.

I kind of agree with it to a limit. We are always moving things aroud in conscious and subsconscious but assume it is a continuum too. Just as it is not in forefron does not mean you are free from such. It simply means it is not in active thought.

Right when you sneeze there is the no-thief state or when the sneeze is about to come out but is delayed, and but not when it gets delayed too long (then you are wondering "What the f?").

Same as above. Logic needs to stand the test of rigor. Say one is holding the hand of someone in lust. You don't let go of the hand as you sneeze in your arm. That does not mean the thief "Lust" is not there in action. It also kind of relates to an analogy of how people use snuff to snort in India. You get a sneeze but I suppose those folks never realized it cleaned more than their noses lol

Sat Sri Akal and thanks for the dialog.

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry Veer ji,
If my post is suggestive of that you may have to descend unwillingly, I seek your forgiveness. I never meant to state that. We are not psycho analysts. I write very plain English. But written words may sometimes convey to the receiver what one intends to receive.

All that was stated in the post was to suggest that ascending is a very gradual process and and is time consuming and one need not worry about what we say. The path chosen by you would be objectively speaking, a subjective decision of the individual concerned.
If one finds the ascending mode cumbersome one can always come back to the original state ;if one finds that connect is not easily possible. One can imagine that coming back to original state is not or should not be a difficult task. There is no chemical change involved in this.
I would like to share with you further...
Personally speaking. I find it very difficult to have a cold water shower at Amritvella, hence for a person like me it is not possible to rise from a level where I am. All I can do is to read bani and try to understand it and also try to be good human being. That is my outer limit. I have no aspiration beyond this.
I am also not a Nitnemi i.e adhering to the schedule of Five Paaths a day. I am lucky if I can do Jap ji sahib every morning.

But that should not stop me from going a step forward.It would be a personal choice.Tomorrow I may try a cold shower in the morning but if I find inconvenient I would stop. It would be my choice and not anyone else. I would ascend and descend as per my liking. If I can continue further, I would, else I have options. It would be voluntary.

Kindly take my earlier post in that spirit. Who am I to suggest that you may have to descend or that you may apprehend so?
All that was meant was to let you know that if you find that connect is not working well, you have the options to have the garb of personality that you wear now. It is your life ,Sir. You have all the Rights and prerogatives to carry on that you like.

Warm Regards
and Bhul Chuk Mauf

Both your earlier post and also this post show a maturity of thinking that I admire, to me, it stated that I should not worry about being one state or another, and just to do the best I can, and let it flow, I aspire after a higher state, whether I can carry it off is another question, but its not like moving to Oklahoma, I mean, I am not stuck there, I can flit between states and just try spending more time there, in non thief land, excellent post brother