I Am Confused Whether Allowed To Eat Non-Veg

[wth]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

I will answer the question, using MY opinions, since thats what you asked for?:

1)God is everywhere, it is in everything. The soul can be put into the 84 lac lives according to Sikhism. I believe plants are one of them/bacteria etc my thoughts are what Gurbani says, it refers to 'carcasses' ie dead animals, not plants. General summary of order of importance, i may be wrong though - Humans, animals, plants, Bacteria.

2, 3 and 4)Plants are lower down then humans and animals, do you agree with me there?? They may have a soul, but that does not mean they are conscious? animals are conscious beings, but only follow there instincts right? however, humans have logic/mat and can overpower there instincts if need be. That is what makes them higher up in the 'food chain'. Killing a plant is less of a effect then killing a animal or even worse a human. When you kill a animal, you take away a father/son/brother to another animal? with plants they are twins, asexual some of them (according to science). There are numerous differences between the two (animals and plants) but i hope you get what im trying to say from just a few of those examples? that eating plants is acceptable, and have less of a effect then eating a animal. i personally believe that what ever you eat or devour takes away some of your karma, even the breaths you take are limited in this life, the amount you indulge, excess is always bad is a common saying by many. killing an animal and eating is meat will take out alot of your 'karma' and it is classed as a 'sin' as you are affecting something elses existence and giving suffering to another being. Eating a plant for consumption will also take out a little karma but not as much as eating a animal which is higher up in the 84 lac lives. Highest being the human being. And you know what killing a human being and eating its body brings with it?? death sentence in some countrys, what does that say?
You said it would be okay to kill a animal if it was deffiecient of the senses. How will you know this? why would you even bother to judge whether something should live or die? leave it to God. I dont know if your questions are of sarcasm, or are rhetorical, but im trying my best to understand them and answer them.

5)If you wish to follow a jainism diet, i dont see anything wrong with that. As long as your not eating animals, Your following Sikhism, if you want to take it a step further and not eat plants or whatever thats up to you, but humans have to consume some things. If you quote Gurbani, it does not say theres anything wrong with drinking milk or eating plants, but there are multiples passages putting down meat consumption and killing animals, so as far as jainism is concerned im not too bothered, because for Sikhs its supposed to be there duty to only follow Guru Granth Sahib ji right??

to cut it down short, bani says, dont be a manmukh, be a Gurmukh, forget the mind and follow the Guru, we could debate about this forever, but when it comes down to it Guru Granth Sahib ji clearly states meat consuption as be uncorrect. If you find something otherwise from there, please show me.

my question to you, do you eat meat?

and 'Gurbani advises us too....be passionate at whatever we do' where does it say that?? 'being passionate at whatever we do'?? please elaborate, because that could be misinterpreted.

wth ji,

Could you please enlightened about your understanding of my question.

Q: Identify what is living and what is not. Could you please list all these items category wise so that we can be more considerate while choosing the food.

Your thoughts reflect that you consider plants not as living beings, does that mean you don't agree with GURU ji' s statement

ਪੰਨਾ 472, ਸਤਰ 14
ਜੇਤੇ ਦਾਣੇ ਅੰਨ ਕੇ ਜੀਆ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

If you are of the thoughts that Plants have lesser level of senses, so can be killed

Q: My question is how do we measure the level of senses of plants?

Q: Does it mean, that plants have lesser love for their life and can be killed.

Q: Does it mean that any animal who cant hear, see or speak can be killed for food without any sin, just like plants?

Gurbani advises us to attain the highest level of understanding and be as much knowledgeable as we can, and be passionate of whatever we do.

Q: Does it mean that from being non-veg, we should turn to being vegetarian and then from being vegetarian we should become vegan and then from vegan to the next stage just as followed by Jainism. In that respect should we follow Jainism practice in this particular regard. If not why, please explain.

Please be specific about your answers and try to answer each question under it in point form, So that I can understand your perspective more clearly with respect to each doubt I have.


Looking forward to hear from your side.

Thanks

Rupinder Singh
:sippingcoffeemunda:

 

[Ishna]

Some Sikh Guru's themselves hunted, killed and ate meat. If it's good enough for them, shouldn't it be good enough for us?

WTH: I'm not sure the quotes you gave are in context. Gurbani uses a lot of metaphor and I think rather than literal interpretations of "dead carcasses" it might be worth looking into the entire shabad and considering what exactly the Guru was trying to say to whoever he was talking to at the time. You'll find extrapolation on that in the 'Fools who rangle over flesh' thread which I would recommend you read -- I learned a lot from it.

Ishna

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Ishna Ji..
The DEAD CARCASSES in the context of that shabd means ..PRAYA HAKK !! Something that doesnt belong to YOU..is Praya Hakk...as in Thous shalt not COVET...(grab another's properties..lands..gold..women..whatever that is NOT ones hard earned honest earnings..is Praya Haak !! Guru ji compares the Grabbing of Praya Hakk as equivalent to a Muslim eating pork...and Hindu eating Beef... ( Guru JI DOESNT USE the word PORK/BEEF BUT Soor- PIG and Gayeh -COW.... as we do due to our supposedly clever understanding that no one eats a PIG/COW..??? BUT THATS the most Common way people DO USE it....Soor khaan walah or gai khaan waleh is common metaphor).

JHOOTH BOL>>MURDAAR KHAYEH. A person who speaks LIES..is actually "Eating carcass".. is also a metaphor. Like we say..So and so is talking CRAP. (btw Crap is dog s.hit) Talking Crap doesnt mean dog poo is coming out of so and so's mouth..it just means that his words have the same value as dog poo. Thus in "Jhooth Bol....a LIE has the same value as a dead dog..dead horse..dead donkey..etc.(murdaar).

 

[BhagatSingh]

Here's an interesting video about plants!
YouTube - Stefano Mancuso: The roots of plant intelligence

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

ALL this so called "logic" about Plants being lower and cows being higher are based on physical "looking" at from views using our eyes...a physical sense..NO PROOF of any kind.

1. GURU NANAK JI SAHIB CHOSE THE SUGAR CANE PLANT...to draw a vivid word picture of SLAUGHTER,TORTURE and SUFFERING !! Doesnt thsi count for ANYTHING ?? Guru nanak ji also THREW WATER at the WEST to show the millions the RIGHT WAY. Who would expect that method to show the millions the FUTILITY of sending water/goods etc to their ancestors ??? GURU NANAK was a REVOLUTIONARY.....

Any kiddie can go to U-TUBE today and see MILLIONS of videos about Slaughter of Cows, chickens, pigs,...dogs being skinned alive..rabbits being roasted alive...blood gushing..etc etc etc....THIS IS THE SAME and so EASY TO "SEE"....as cruelty..torture..whatever....BUT ever SEEN a Video about a Sugar cane being dealt with in the SAME GRAPHIC WAY ??? will that evoke the same emotions ??

MILLIONS were throwing water towards the SUN..it was EASY..everybody was DOING THAT....BUT GURU NANAK JI had something UNIQUE..something REVOLUTIONARY..something Brand NEW to say....so He threw water to the WEST !!

Hence the Shabad about the GANNA...the Poor SUGAR CANE....
read the shabd..and SEE the Vivid IMAGERY....The farmer comes into the filed...sharp cutter in his hand...the HAND FLASHES....OFF with the "HEAD"...of the sugar cane plant....a quick slash at the very ROOTS....and the ganna comes crashing down..headless...then its picked up..and tied up in a BUNDLE...and thrown unceremoniously onto a Gadda...and the poor ganna's BODY is then put through a ROLLER that SQUEEZES OUT the JUICE...( BLOOD)...which flows uninterrupted....while the broken body is placed again and again through the Rollers....and even when its ALL DRY..its still NOT SPARED...the dried up broken body of the ganna is BURNED in a FURNACE to BOIL its ( JUICES ) or blood extracted earlier...to be made into SUGAR !! which is then CONSUMED by MAN.

WHY is SUGAR CoNSUMED ?? isnt this just for TASTE ?? in Fact its SO DANGEROUS and ADDICTIVE..that GURU NANAK JI on Page 15 of SGGS places it ONE POSITION HIGHER THAN....taste of MEAT..!!!!!!!!!! MEAT is LAST on Guru jis LIST of ADDICTIONS..while SUGAR is SECOND LAST !!! NINE OTHER ADDICTIONS PRECEED !!!! but we SIKHS always FAST FORWARD to the LAST ONE !!!! WHY ??? Have we conquered all the earlier ones so well ??????

Guru Nanak ji could have followed all the others...after all the Brahmins, Pandits, yogis, Siddhs, EVERY ONE was already actively CONDEMNING MEAT as bad...evil...bad karma..etc etc etc...and so Guru Ji could ahve written shbads about how the goat suffers..hiw the cow suffers..etc...BUT GURU JI BROKE AWAY...and wrote about the SUGAR CANE...a PLANT..which is supposedly..lower karma..lower soul..blah blah blah...

We have fallen into the same PIT....Just as MILLIONS STILL continue to gather at Kumbh Mela hardwaar to throw water to the SUN....even in the light of Todays SCIENCE and all that KNOWLEDGE EXPOSURE........MILLIONS of Sikhs still continue thier fixation with vegetation.....WHEN GURU NANAK JI SAW what the JAINS etc etc were DOING/PRACTISING....and actively RUBBISHED THEIR WAYS. Still we have Sikhs who ...think..maybe..maybe..the jains..are correct..maybe not..blah blah blah...the JAINS ARE WRONG and GURU NANAK SAID SO IN WRITING. PERIOD. And so are all the so called vege supporters who support on basis of cruelty..blah blah blah..higher life..higher souls..blah blah blah..

ITS A CHOICE. CHOOSE TO BE VEGETARIAN...CHOOSE TO BE SUGAR FREE. CHOOSE TO BE ALCOHOL FREE. CHOOSE TO WALK TO WORK...CHOOSE...CHOOSE..DONT HIDE BEHIND GURBANI...and DONT USE GURBANI TO WIN OTHERS TO YOUR SIDE. DIET is personal CHOICE based on YOUR OWN BODY...read the sri raag shabads...Hor Khanna Hor Pehhnnna..Hor charrnna....AVOID ANYTHING THAT GIVES PAIN AND SUFFERING and aids sickness..separation from HIM...is BAD...and SUGAR is DIABETES...makes you SICK...and KILLS YOU..long before meat ever will.

 

[Rupinder.Singh]

http://gurbaniviaakheaa.blogspot.com/search/label/ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥

 

[Ishna]

Wow Gyani ji, your post really got to me. SPN is so lucky to have you here. Thank you.

Ishna

 

[Randip Singh]

http://gurbaniviaakheaa.blogspot.com/search/label/ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥

Normally I don't like single liners, but I found the following quite amusing:

Question: Guru Jee please tell me can Sikhs eat meat?
Answer:
ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਆਹਾਰੁ ਜੀਅ ਖਾਣਾ ਏਹੁ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
Animals eat other animals; this is what the Lord has given them as food.
(SGGS - Ang 955)



Question: But my friends told me that I should eat vegetarian because it is good for me and religiously upright. Is it a pious thing if I eat vegetarian food only, all the time?
Answer:
ਕਿਆ ਖਾਧੈ ਕਿਆ ਪੈਧੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜਾ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
What good is food, and what good are clothes, if the True Lord does not abide within the mind?
(SGGS - Ang 142)



Question: But Guru Jee, why should Sikhs eat meat?
Answer:
ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
(SGGS - Ang 1290)



Question: That's all good, but I have seen Nihang Singhs do Jhatka and they say that its on going tradition to slaughter goats and eat its meat. So is it okay for the Nihang Singhs to do Jhatka?
Answer:
ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
Birth and death are subject to the Command of the Lord's Will; through His Will we come and go.
(SGGS - Ang 472)



Question: Okay. What about eating fish?
Answer:
ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
(SGGS - Ang 1289)



Question: Guru Jee, can you eat meat and still do Bhagti (devotional worship)?
Answer:
ਮਾਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥
ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
(SGGS - Ang 1289)



Question: Does it affect our spirituality if we eat meat?
Answer:
ਕਿਆ ਖਾਧੈ ਕਿਆ ਪੈਧੈ ਹੋਇ ॥
ਜਾ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
What good is food, and what good are clothes,
if the True Lord does not abide within the mind?
(SGGS - Ang 142)



Question: Guru Jee does becoming a vegetarian make me religious? If I just give eating meat, does that please you?
Answer:
ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
"Only the fool quarrels over the question of eating or not eating of the meat; that person does not have the True Wisdom. (Without True Wisdom or Meditation), the person harps on which is flesh and which is not flesh and which food is sinful and which is not."
(SGGS - Ang 1289-1290)



Question: What thing makes a person religious if just becoming a vegetarian or non-vegetarian doesn't make a person religious?
Answer:
ਪਹਿਲਾ ਮਰਣੁ ਕਬੂਲਿ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਛਡਿ ਆਸ ॥
ਹੋਹੁ ਸਭਨਾ ਕੀ ਰੇਣੁਕਾ ਤਉ ਆਉ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੧॥
First, accept death, and give up any hope of life.
Become the dust of the feet of all, and then, you may come to me. ||1||
(SGGS – Ang 1102)



Question: Guru Jee thanks for clearing up things. But why is the Panth in doubt over what "Kuttha" means and whether it means Halal meat or all meat?
Answer:
ਖਸਮੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਦੂਜੈ ਲਗੇ ਡੁਬੇ ਸੇ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਵਿਰਲੈ ਕਿਨੈ ਵੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥
Those dealers who abandon their Lord and Master and attach themselves to another, are drowned.
The True Guru is the boat, but few are those who realize this.
(SGGS – Ang 470)

Behold the POWER of VEGAN!!

YouTube - Scott Pilgrim Scene - Versus Todd Ingram

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

okay i can contradict everything you said with written parts of Guru Granth Sahib ji and other sikh scriptures.
However, i think its pretty common sense to see why eating meat is wrong? is it not?? so your telling me only halal meat should not be eaten but every other method of killing a animal is justifiable and the meat can be eaten? what a load of rubbish. Sikhs protect the innocent and defend the weak yeah? they fight in defense yes?? but attacking and killing a animal is okay, even though there are numerous vegetarian sources of food, where animals do not have to suffer?? you reckon Guruji allows this?? Even a atheist with some intellect can see, that eating meat is not logical or morally correct, so why cant you? assuming you call yourself a Sikh??

Most of these kinds of arguments have already been discussed over years in the thread Fools Who Wrangle over Flesh. There is no need to repeat all of this.

I don't normally say this but aren't you incredibly egotistical?

You post you OWN opinions and yet claim to know SIKHI?

Behold the POWER of Vegan!!! :singhsippingcoffee:

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

I will answer the question, using MY opinions, since thats what you asked for?:

1)God is everywhere, it is in everything. The soul can be put into the 84 lac lives according to Sikhism. I believe plants are one of them/bacteria etc my thoughts are what Gurbani says, it refers to 'carcasses' ie dead animals, not plants. General summary of order of importance, i may be wrong though - Humans, animals, plants, Bacteria.

2, 3 and 4)Plants are lower down then humans and animals, do you agree with me there?? They may have a soul, but that does not mean they are conscious? animals are conscious beings, but only follow there instincts right? however, humans have logic/mat and can overpower there instincts if need be. That is what makes them higher up in the 'food chain'. Killing a plant is less of a effect then killing a animal or even worse a human. When you kill a animal, you take away a father/son/brother to another animal? with plants they are twins, asexual some of them (according to science). There are numerous differences between the two (animals and plants) but i hope you get what im trying to say from just a few of those examples? that eating plants is acceptable, and have less of a effect then eating a animal. i personally believe that what ever you eat or devour takes away some of your karma, even the breaths you take are limited in this life, the amount you indulge, excess is always bad is a common saying by many. killing an animal and eating is meat will take out alot of your 'karma' and it is classed as a 'sin' as you are affecting something elses existence and giving suffering to another being. Eating a plant for consumption will also take out a little karma but not as much as eating a animal which is higher up in the 84 lac lives. Highest being the human being. And you know what killing a human being and eating its body brings with it?? death sentence in some countrys, what does that say?
You said it would be okay to kill a animal if it was deffiecient of the senses. How will you know this? why would you even bother to judge whether something should live or die? leave it to God. I dont know if your questions are of sarcasm, or are rhetorical, but im trying my best to understand them and answer them.

5)If you wish to follow a jainism diet, i dont see anything wrong with that. As long as your not eating animals, Your following Sikhism, if you want to take it a step further and not eat plants or whatever thats up to you, but humans have to consume some things. If you quote Gurbani, it does not say theres anything wrong with drinking milk or eating plants, but there are multiples passages putting down meat consumption and killing animals, so as far as jainism is concerned im not too bothered, because for Sikhs its supposed to be there duty to only follow Guru Granth Sahib ji right??

to cut it down short, bani says, dont be a manmukh, be a Gurmukh, forget the mind and follow the Guru, we could debate about this forever, but when it comes down to it Guru Granth Sahib ji clearly states meat consuption as be uncorrect. If you find something otherwise from there, please show me.

my question to you, do you eat meat?

and 'Gurbani advises us too....be passionate at whatever we do' where does it say that?? 'being passionate at whatever we do'?? please elaborate, because that could be misinterpreted.

GIBBERISH!

I will use Bani in my argument!

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT - ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji



Reading this Shabad one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states:


ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.
har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.
jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.
mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.
lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru's when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

I don't normally say this but aren't you incredibly egotistical?

You post you OWN opinions and yet claim to know SIKHI?

Behold the POWER of Vegan!!! :singhsippingcoffee:

This is how ludicrous the discussion can become...I am reminded of an incident which took place where militants of Dal Khalsa conducted a volunteer raid of Professor Darshan Singh's house in Punjab. They "caught" him and friends eating an omelet. Accused him of low morals in the press. Yet because the Professor believes in "gian" he took time to patiently explain how every egg that is sacrificed for an omelet is "slaughtered" by "jatka." Of course they were not satisfied. To me the image is hilarious. Behold the POWER of zealotry.

warm regards,
A vegetarian

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

This is how ludicrous the discussion can become...I am reminded of an incident which took place where militants of Dal Khalsa conducted a volunteer raid of Professor Darshan Singh's house in Punjab. They "caught" him and friends eating an omelet. Accused him of low morals in the press. Yet because the Professor believes in "gian" he took time to patiently explain how every egg that is sacrificed for an omelet is "slaughtered" by "jatka." Of course they were not satisfied. To me the image is hilarious. Behold the POWER of zealotry.

warm regards,
A vegetarian

Unfortunately for these crusading Vegetarians, they would be looked down upon as filthy and dirty by their pure non-lactose Vegan overlords.

Behold the power of Vegan!

YouTube - Scott Pilgrim Scene - Versus Todd Ingram

 

[BhagatSingh]

WHY is SUGAR CoNSUMED ?? isnt this just for TASTE ?? in Fact its SO DANGEROUS and ADDICTIVE..that GURU NANAK JI on Page 15 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji places it ONE POSITION HIGHER THAN....taste of MEAT..!!!!!!!!!! MEAT is LAST on Guru jis LIST of ADDICTIONS..while SUGAR is SECOND LAST !!! NINE OTHER ADDICTIONS PRECEED !!!! but we SIKHS always FAST FORWARD to the LAST ONE !!!! WHY ??? Have we conquered all the earlier ones so well ??????

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,
That was an awesome argument, combined with the treatment of sugar canes - knockout!

I am not sure where it talks about these addictions in SGGS. Can we get some references?

 

[findingmyway]

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,
That was an awesome argument, combined with the treatment of sugar canes - knockout!

I am not sure where it talks about these addictions in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Can we get some references?

Page 142-3
ਮਃ ੧ ॥

ਵੇਖੁ ਜਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਟਿਆ ਕਟਿ ਕੁਟਿ ਬਧਾ ਪਾਇ ॥ vaekh j mithaa kattiaa katt kutt badhhaa paae ||
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
ਖੁੰਢਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਰਖਿ ਕੈ ਦੇਨਿ ਸੁ ਮਲ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ khundtaa andhar rakh kai dhaen s mal sajaae ||
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ਰਸੁ ਕਸੁ ਟਟਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਪੈ ਤੈ ਵਿਲਲਾਇ ॥ ras kas ttattar paaeeai thapai thai vilalaae ||
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

ਭੀ ਸੋ ਫੋਗੁ ਸਮਾਲੀਐ ਦਿਚੈ ਅਗਿ ਜਾਲਾਇ ॥ bhee so fog samaaleeai dhichai ag jaalaae ||
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਠੈ ਪਤਰੀਐ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਕਾ ਆਇ ॥੨॥ naanak mithai pathareeai vaekhahu lokaa aae ||2||
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||




Page 1098
ਮਃ ੫ ॥

ਪਿਰੀਆ ਸੰਦੜੀ ਭੁਖ ਮੂ ਲਾਵਣ ਥੀ ਵਿਥਰਾ ॥
pireeaa sandharree bhukh moo laavan thhee vithharaa ||
If my Beloved becomes hungry, I will become food, and place myself before Him.

ਜਾਣੁ ਮਿਠਾਈ ਇਖ ਬੇਈ ਪੀੜੇ ਨਾ ਹੁਟੈ ॥੨॥
jaan mithaaee eikh baeee peerrae naa huttai ||2||
I may be crushed, again and again, but like sugarcane, I do not stop yielding sweet juice. ||2||


Page 142
ਮਃ ੧ ॥

ਕਿਆ ਖਾਧੈ ਕਿਆ ਪੈਧੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ kiaa khaadhhai kiaa paidhhai hoe ||
What good is food, and what good are clothes,

ਜਾ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥ jaa man naahee sachaa soe ||
if the True Lord does not abide within the mind?

ਕਿਆ ਮੇਵਾ ਕਿਆ ਘਿਉ ਗੁੜੁ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੈਦਾ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਸੁ ॥ kiaa maevaa kiaa ghio gurr mithaa kiaa maidhaa kiaa maas ||
What good are fruits, what good is ghee, sweet jaggery, what good is flour, and what good is meat?

ਕਿਆ ਕਪੜੁ ਕਿਆ ਸੇਜ ਸੁਖਾਲੀ ਕੀਜਹਿ ਭੋਗ ਬਿਲਾਸ ॥ kiaa kaparr kiaa saej sukhaalee keejehi bhog bilaas ||
What good are clothes, and what good is a soft bed, to enjoy pleasures and sensual delights?

ਕਿਆ ਲਸਕਰ ਕਿਆ ਨੇਬ ਖਵਾਸੀ ਆਵੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਵਾਸੁ ॥ kiaa lasakar kiaa naeb khavaasee aavai mehalee vaas ||
What good is an army, and what good are soldiers, servants and mansions to live in?

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਭੇ ਟੋਲ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥੨॥ naanak sachae naam vin sabhae ttol vinaas ||2||
O Nanak, without the True Name, all this paraphernalia shall disappear. ||2||

 

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

Most of yesterday and all night and all day - so far - today, I have been thinking troubling thoughts and (figuratively) sitting on my hands to keep myself from writing and I simply can't restrain myself any more. I'm not sure if this belongs in this thread. Our dear moderators can move it or even delete it if they choose.

I am sick and tired of all this scrapping about food and DG and out-of-context Tuks and other disagreements. None of these things are vital to Sikhi. What is the purpose of Sikhi? Why do we bother being Sikhs? What are we trying to accomplish? What is/are the purpose/s of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the Sikh Rehat Maryada ji? It reminds me of dear little Abby, my sweet little dog. When I point to something to show her, she happily licks my finger and has no idea what I'm pointing at. In fact, she doesn't realise that there is anything beyond my licked, wet finger - which now I must go wash.

We have before us the most sumptuous feast ever placed before humankind and we are passionately arguing about which fork to use or whether soup should come before salad or at what angle to bend our pinky finger when we pick up our tea cup. We are lions (of both sexes) and lions just eat when they are hungry. I have never yet come across a lion that uses a fork or cares about the order in which s/he eats her/his food and lions don't even have pinkies.

Yes, I do all these things with the best of them. I can argue with the best of the Tellarites and for the same reason. ("Tellarites do not argue for reasons. They simply argue." Sarek of Vulcan)

Now I'm hungry. I just want to chow down and drink in big gulps.

:sippingcoffee::chips:icecreamkaur :singhsippingcoffee:icecreammunda (Note to self: need Sikh smiley for the chips eater)
animatedkhanda1

End of diatribe.

:grinningkudi:

 

[wth]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

I don't normally say this but aren't you incredibly egotistical?

You post you OWN opinions and yet claim to know SIKHI?

Behold the POWER of Vegan!!! :singhsippingcoffee:

Ive not said once that 'i know sikhi'. Call me what you want, the fact remains that Guru Granth Sahib ji does not encourage the eating of meat or flesh. Btw everyone else here seems to be putting down there opnions about how its okay to eat meat and follow your instincts etc etc, so i thought i was also allowed to put down my opnions as well? since none of the 'its okay to eat meat' can be backed up by Guru Granth Sahib ji, the arguements everyones using to make them feel at ease as they tuck into some chicken is invalid.

@Ishna:

You claimed the Gurus ate meat, its funny how nobody has said anything against that, but have instead decided to appreciate your post. Anyways, some of the Gurus married more then one woman, do you think thats acceptable as well? point being, we are not the Gurus or even on the same level are we? to even compare someone else to the Sikh Gurus, i personally find offensive, not sure about everyone else on here, but i do. I dont believe the Gurus ate meat, unless you can prove me otherwise, i also deem copying the Gurus actions also uncalled for. Thats just my opinion.

 

[wth]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

GIBBERISH!

I will use Bani in my argument!

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT - ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.
mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.
ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.
saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.
avar na doojaa karnai jog.
taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.
No one else can do anything at all.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji



Reading this Shabad one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states:


ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.
har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.
jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.
mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.
lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru's when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:
Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

Sorry if i misinterpreted your question or gave you 'gibberish', i could not understand your question or what the point of your questions were. It feels as though the questions you asked were just to show your dominance over me with your knowledge. Your asked me a number of questions and MY opnion ( i did not quote any gurbani), which left me open to your criticism, very well done.


Reading this Shabad one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states:


ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;
ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;
ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

The quote you have given does not say that, that is the order of the 84 lac lives, its clearly saying that God is in numerous forms and incarnations, where does it say a plants life is equal to that of a human life?? your point is not backed up by the Gurbani you quoted me, is it?

Anyways, are your saying eating meat is equivalent of eating a plant? and that killing a animal is like casually pulling out daisys in the garden?? fair enough if that is your opinion, but you stil havent clearly showed me where in Gurbani it says its acceptable to eat meat and kill animals to satisfy your hunger. If you can find me those quotes i will appreciate it.

 

[wth]

ITS A CHOICE. CHOOSE TO BE VEGETARIAN...CHOOSE TO BE SUGAR FREE. CHOOSE TO BE ALCOHOL FREE. CHOOSE TO WALK TO WORK...CHOOSE...CHOOSE..DONT HIDE BEHIND GURBANI...and DONT USE GURBANI TO WIN OTHERS TO YOUR SIDE. DIET is personal CHOICE based on YOUR OWN BODY...read the sri raag shabads...Hor Khanna Hor Pehhnnna..Hor charrnna....AVOID ANYTHING THAT GIVES PAIN AND SUFFERING and aids sickness..separation from HIM...is BAD...and SUGAR is DIABETES...makes you SICK...and KILLS YOU..long before meat ever will.[/QUOTE]

Yes it is a choice, just like whether to go clubbing with your mates and get smashed of your head, or to rob someones house when short in cash. There all choices, Gurbani is not forcing anyone to do anything. btw, humans need sugar in there diets, theres no way of having a sugar free diet, every food broken down into its simplest form is a sugar. You can however live without eating meat, trust me people have done it :redturban:

But, if your talking about being a 'Sikh' ie following the Guru, ie Guru Granth Sahib ji, then doing those things are wrong, and eating meat is discouraged.

Im not just directing this to you jarnail singh, but to everyone else,
Humans are not designed to eat meat right? we have small teeth, we have small easily breakable nails, our bodys are weak in comparison to say a tiger and other predators. We have the ability to be sympathetic, we can feel another beings pain. Why would it then be acceptable to kill a defenseless animal and eat its meat? alot of people on here are saying its acceptable, but to me, without quoting gurbani or anything i think its a cruel act. I dont see how anyone can justify eating meat thorugh either
a) Gurbani
b) Morales/facts

 

[wth]

last comment:

@ Mai Harinder :

Your right, its not vital to Sikhism, but if people cant manage to do the basics how can they then progress on further? not eating meat/drinking are the first stages, are they not?

@everyone else:

Using common sense, is it not clear that the whole world right now is eating meat?? why do you think then that theres people in the Sikh religion/hinduism/Buddhism and other eastern religions so against it? its natural to eat whats available on the stores and turn a blind eye, but then explain to me this, why are there people out there saying its wrong if its supposed to be normal?? nobodys saying stop drinking water. why are there people out there saying its wrong then what have they got to gain from this?? wouldnt it be so much easier to follow your instincts and indulge in the flavours and eat whatever you want like evrybody else?? just a thought to be considered.

 

[findingmyway]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

Ive not said once that 'i know sikhi'. Call me what you want, the fact remains that Guru Granth Sahib ji does not encourage the eating of meat or flesh. Btw everyone else here seems to be putting down there opnions about how its okay to eat meat and follow your instincts etc etc, so i thought i was also allowed to put down my opnions as well? since none of the 'its okay to eat meat' can be backed up by Guru Granth Sahib ji, the arguements everyones using to make them feel at ease as they tuck into some chicken is invalid.

You have not backed up your argument with Gurbani. Gurbani should form the basis of decisions made by all Sikhs so a lot of your other points about choices are invalid. Comparing meat eating to alcohol is absurd as biologically and morally they are worlds apart. Alcohol makes you lose control over your senses, meat does not. Alcohol is addictive in a negative way and can lead to many social problems (violence and crime), meat does not. Gurbani clearly bans intoxicants and you have been shown time and again that meat eating is not banned by Gurbani. If you choose to ignore those posts or misunderstand them that is your problem, it does not give you the right to force your OPINION on others or guilt trip others.

YOU KEEP PRESENTING YOUR OPINION AS FACT AND THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. ALL DECISIONS MUST BE BASED ON GURBANI NOT OPINION.

You claimed the Gurus ate meat, its funny how nobody has said anything against that, but have instead decided to appreciate your post. Anyways, some of the Gurus married more then one woman, do you think thats acceptable as well? point being, we are not the Gurus or even on the same level are we? to even compare someone else to the Sikh Gurus, i personally find offensive, not sure about everyone else on here, but i do. I dont believe the Gurus ate meat, unless you can prove me otherwise, i also deem copying the Gurus actions also uncalled for. Thats just my opinion.

Please study some history. The Guru's are our role models so copying their actions is definitely a good thing. What do you think the Guru's and Singh's did with the animals they hunted? Do you really think they wasted that animal's life for nothing? How do you think the Singh's in the jungles survived? Hunting is a well established fact as it was essential for war preparation and cannot be disputed. There is also evidence to show meat was served as part of langar when it was 1st started. None of the Guru's had multiple wives. These are fanciful stories started by dodgy janamsakhis which have been discredited. DON'T EVER INSULT THE GURU'S WITH SUCH NONSENSE.

The quote you have given does not say that, that is the order of the 84 lac lives, its clearly saying that God is in numerous forms and incarnations, where does it say a plants life is equal to that of a human life??

It doesn't but it does say there is no difference between plants and animals. Gyani ji has already expanded on this.

Humans are not designed to eat meat right? we have small teeth, we have small easily breakable nails, our bodys are weak in comparison to say a tiger and other predators. We have the ability to be sympathetic, we can feel another beings pain. Why would it then be acceptable to kill a defenseless animal and eat its meat? alot of people on here are saying its acceptable, but to me, without quoting gurbani or anything i think its a cruel act.

This is your choice and you have the right to make that choice so stop taking away other's choice. That attitude is known as dictatorship. I personally think it is very egotistical of us to say plants don't suffer just because our senses are incapable of sensing their pain. There are numerous scientific studies that show plants also have feeling. There are numerous scientific studies that show large predators have better senses than us. Humans are designed for meat eating and vegetarian diets so it is a choice. Some humans require meat as part of diet to keep healthy others do not. We have teeth and digestive tracts capable of both. Any basic biology book will tell you the same.

but then explain to me this, why are there people out there saying its wrong if its supposed to be normal??

This is the weakest argument I have ever heard! People say meat eating is wrong, people say milk drinking is wrong, people say abstaining from any food is wrong-who to listen to? People say giving women rights is wrong, people say denying women their rights is wrong-who do you listen to? People say immigration is wrong, others say denying immigration is wrong-who do you listen to? Just because people say something doesn't make it right. If Guru Nanak Dev ji thought that way he never would have stopped so many wrong practices just because 'people say it is right'.

its not vital to Sikhism, but if people cant manage to do the basics how can they then progress on further?

By your own sensible advice, stop focussing on such small issues and focus on the basics-your spirituality, being a good person and studying Gurbani. There are so many other important issues that desperately need attention!

I don't normally like one liners but this just sums things up perfectly
Ang 1289 Line 15 Raag Malar: Guru Nanak Dev
ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
maas maas kar moorakh jhagarrae giaan dhhiaan nehee jaanai ||
मासु मासु करि मूरखु झगड़े गिआनु धिआनु नही जाणै ॥
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.



Admin note: This is a warning. Stop presenting your opinion as fact. If you have a point back it up with gurbani and do not repeat what has been discussed in this thread or the Fools Wrangle Over Flesh thread as we end up going round in circles.