I Am Confused Whether Allowed To Eat Non-Veg

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,
That was an awesome argument, combined with the treatment of sugar canes - knockout!

I am not sure where it talks about these addictions in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Can we get some references?

Bhagat Singh jio,

Findingmyway Ji has given the SGGS references to Sugar cane graphics.
The List of ADDICTIONS are given Right at the very BEGINNING of the SGGS, by our First Guur and Founder Guru nanak ji Sahib in Sri Raag Panna 15 ...

Avarice is DOG....Falsehood lies is SWEEPER (choohrra)....CHEATING is eating carrion...Slander is putting FILTH OF OTHERS IN ONES MOUTH !! (Eating CRAP or BS )
Sri Raag mahalla Pehla: Lab kutta kuurr choorra thagh khadha
murdaar...then the following RAS..ADDICTIONS.. PLEASURES.. ( that is EXCESS Consumption) of the following is DISCOURAGED:
1. Ras sona - Gold addiction....(wealth) Maybe Kings and high classes
2. Ras Rupa (Silver) addiction ,,(wealth again - maybe middle class ??)
3.Ras of Kaam Damsel..
4.Ras of frangrances...sandalwood...etc
5.Ras of horses...best horse..best BMW ??? Elephnats...
6. Ras of soft cushions ....(soft beddings and gadellahs ??)
7 Ras of Houries and Palaces..mansions..servants..and maids..butlers..???
8. Ras of SWEETS
9. Ras of MEATS..
ALL these are the PLEASURES and the RELISHES of the Human BODY....How cna His NAME be SECURED within the HEART ? O Nanak !!

SOME PEOPLE JUST CANNOT DISTINGUISH BETWEEN......MURDAAR......CARRION...and MAAS......MEAT FRESHLY KILLED FOR CONSUMPTION. Any kiddo knows that only VULTURES/HYENAS eats CARRION.....and LIONS Cheetahs also HUNT and KILL FRESH MEAT. Even a Snake will not eat a DEAD RAT.... IN GURBANI CONTEXT..MURDAAR is always used for CARRION/FILTH/BS/CRAP.

2. SEE How the word "MAAS" for meat is used in the SAME LINE of FOODS..Flour, GHEE, Sugar..Maas !! Would nay right thinking person even MENTION "CRAP" TOGETHER with FOODS..in the same breath..same line..same CONTEXT ?? Only a FOOL would eat with a plate full of BS/CRAP beside him on the same table. Period.

BTW personally speaking..I am Totally FREE of ADDICTION TO:.....SUGAR...Maas...Horses..fragrances....damsels.....Soft Cushions..Mansions...ONLY 2 MORE to go...Gold..Silver....am seriously working on THOSE !!

Hope this clarifies.

 

[spnadmin]

Let's remember what any Internet forum is devised to accomplish: An exchange of information, ideas and opinions related to topics that are interesting to segments of the cyber community that make up the membership of the forum.

Therefore suggestions that debates are silly, un-necessary, superfluous, argumentative, etc. are not relevant to the purpose of a discussion forum. And when someone feels that a debate is uncalled for on any particular topic, the obvious solution is to step out of the discussion.

Admin can't do that. No matter how silly, unnecessary, superfluous or argumentative admin may think a discussion is, admin has to hang around to make sure that TOS are observed, that laws pertaining to the Internet are not broken, that libel and slander are avoided if possible, and that a balance of fact and opinion be present most of the time.

So having said that, my job is to keep the thread moving in a fruitful direction instead of going around in circles.

Here are some focus questions.

1. Are "not eating meat/drinking" among the basic steps of Sikhi? What authorities in scripture, SRM supoprt that notion?

2. Why indeed do some members of the Sikh/Hindu/Buddhist religions (and others) observe nonmeat diets? Why do others of the same religions do otherwise?

3. Is eating meat a matter of following your instincts? What about other food sources? is eating non meat substances also a matter of following your instincts?

4. Or by instincts do we really mean preferences?

5. How does one's diet define one's Sikhism? Can this statement be supported?

But, if your talking about being a 'Sikh' ie following the Guru, ie Guru Granth Sahib ji, then doing those things are wrong, and eating meat is discouraged.

6. Should a literal understanding of the guru shabad be used to decide whether eating meat is discouraged?

7. If you agree that a literal understanding is required, why? If you do not accept the literal understanding, why not?

8. What is the connection between small teeth, easily breakable nails, weak bodies in comparison to other predators, the ability to be sympathetic and feel another being's pain, and our diets? Reference below

Humans are not designed to eat meat right? we have small teeth, we have small easily breakable nails, our bodys are weak in comparison to say a tiger and other predators. We have the ability to be sympathetic, we can feel another beings pain. Why would it then be acceptable to kill a defenseless animal and eat its meat? alot of people on here are saying its acceptable, but to me, without quoting gurbani or anything i think its a cruel act.

In nature a piranha has small teeth, has no nails but fins, and eats meat. In nature, feeling another being's pain might be the reason for choosing vegetarianism. How do we get from that thought to the idea that we should dictate to others what they should eat or not eat?

9. The question all along has not been whether guru shabad "encourages" eating meat. The question all along in the debates here at SPN and elsewhere has been: Does Guru's shabad "forbid" eating meat?

Admin note: Those two questions are very different, and to substitute the first question for the second question is a debating tactic. The effect of it is to hijack the debate, bring the issue into territory where one is more comfortable, and where it is easier to put the people who disagree with you on the defensive. Let's avoid that strategy.

Example

Anyways, are your saying eating meat is equivalent of eating a plant? and that killing a animal is like casually pulling out daisys in the garden?? fair enough if that is your opinion, but you stil havent clearly showed me where in Gurbani it says its acceptable to eat meat and kill animals to satisfy your hunger. If you can find me those quotes i will appreciate it.

This is "begging the question."

 

[spnadmin]

Admin owns this thread. Let's move on and not continue to chase our tails.

 

[wth]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

@findingmyway

If you look back a few pages i did quote gurbani.


Deletions: Debate issues not personalities. Thanks, spnadmin


You also said that my arguement:

'but then explain to me this, why are there people out there saying its wrong if its supposed to be normal??'

was weak, but yet you still have not managed to answer my question, but instead replied with a whole other bunch of questions, if it was so easy why dont you answer it then?? because truth always prevails.

 

[Seeker9]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

I haven't had time to read through this thread but conceptually, I must say I find this sort of debate fairly pointless. It's just my personal view and no offence intended to anyone

Aside from the fact that Findingmyway Ji made an excellent argument about the distinction between intoxicating substances and food, on a deeper level what is Sikhism about? What is the overall objective? Do all vegetarian Sikhs practice the faith diligently everyday? Do they do their daily meditation? Are they without exception always people of good moral character?

I've often come across vegetarians in other faiths, e.g Radha Soami, who regard this as a significant personal sacrifice that elevates them above the weak meat eaters who will never achieve salvation!

I prefer to take people on their character and actions and not on what food they consume.....

 

[wth]

findingmyway said that there is a big difference between food and intoxicants. However, even food is a intoxicant, you are dependent on food, it releases endorphines in your brain. It can be classed as a drug, as what you eat can alter your mind just like a drug.

The deleted comments are essentially duplicates of earlier points. The deleted questions have already been addressed by Gyani ji and Jasleen ji in earlier posts.

(ive got a feeling spnadmin might edit or delete this post, so just in case you are going to, can you ask me first this time?)peacesign

 

[spnadmin]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

I am sorry to have to put another admin note on this thread. Spam is usually taken to mean commercial ads, links to commercial sites. However, constantly repeating the same points after they have been addressed, same questions after they have been answered, is also spam.

Please use the focus questions if you are having difficulty deciding how to reply to this thread. Please do debate issues not personalities.

@wth ji. Please consider this my final warning to you.

 

[wth]

Re: I am confused whether allowed to eat non veg

I am sorry to have to put another admin note on this thread. Spam is usually taken to mean commercial ads, links to commercial sites. However, constantly repeating the same points after they have been addressed, same questions after they have been answered, is also spam.

Please use the focus questions if you are having difficulty deciding how to reply to this thread. Please do debate issues not personalities.

@wth ji. Please consider this my final warning to you.

If you actually read my posts, i am making different points, some points may be on a simliar issue, as i am replying to somebody that has replied to me. It is human nature to respond. If i am repeating the same point, can you show me? instead of just telling me...........

And can i just say, in case you take this post as 'offence' again, although i dont see where? just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they are insulting you, unless that person deems themself to be the centre of the univerese. Spnadmin your 'rullings' (im not using the word opression in case you find that offensive, as im not sure what is offending you..) are like that of America, and how its walking around and interferring in other peoples countrys claiming it to be an 'act on the war on terror'. Is this not a Sikh forum? i thought it said at the top, 'to recognise the human race as one'?? i think that means being fair in how you treat everyone on here? you may not see me eye to eye on points but does that mean i should not post? please reply to this...i am confused..

 

[wth]

findingmyway said that there is a big difference between food and intoxicants. However, even food is a intoxicant, you are dependent on food, it releases endorphines in your brain. It can be classed as a drug, as what you eat can alter your mind just like a drug.

The deleted comments are essentially duplicates of earlier points. The deleted questions have already been addressed by Gyani ji and Jasleen ji in earlier posts.

(ive got a feeling spnadmin might edit or delete this post, so just in case you are going to, can you ask me first this time?)peacesign

but i am not gyan ji or jasleen, im asking a question that is all. Since i am not gyani ji or jasleen, how is this spam? if i said this point earlier and repeated it for no reason, then i can understand, but if someone else said it and i did not read it, why are you just 'dismissing' my posts??? is this how you normally moderate??

I have a suspicion, you are deleting my posts as you dont want me to post on here, and are finding a excuse to remove me as a member, is this true?? or am i looking into it too much? because that is the vibe i am feeling here.

do you not normally get new posters on heree? like myself?? if you get new posters your bound to get simliar points being raised, that doesnt give you the right to delete them because 'you've heard them all before' im new here, ive been on other non'religious forums, and non of them have moderated like this, so that is why i ask.

 

[Seeker9]

findingmyway said that there is a big difference between food and intoxicants. However, even food is a intoxicant, you are dependent on food, it releases endorphines in your brain. It can be classed as a drug, as what you eat can alter your mind just like a drug.

I'm afraid I would have to disagree with this argument.

Biological dependency is not the same
We need oxygen .. oxygen goes into our blood and to our brain..is it a drug? Is it intoxicating?

I disagree food can be classed as a drug unless it contains intoxicating ingredients like magic mushrooms!

It isn't a question of whether it causes chemical reactions. The question is what is the impact of those chemical reactions? Do they weaken a person's self control?

We can see the effects of people getting high on drugs or on alcohol
I don't think I have ever seen anyone getting high on just food

But like I said in my previous post, I see no real value in getting bogged down on this

 

[wth]

findingmyway said that there is a big difference between food and intoxicants. However, even food is a intoxicant, you are dependent on food, it releases endorphines in your brain. It can be classed as a drug, as what you eat can alter your mind just like a drug.

I'm afraid I would have to disagree with this argument.

Biological dependency is not the same
We need oxygen .. oxygen goes into our blood and to our brain..is it a drug? Is it intoxicating?

I disagree food can be classed as a drug unless it contains intoxicating ingredients like magic mushrooms!

It isn't a question of whether it causes chemical reactions. The question is what is the impact of those chemical reactions? Do they weaken a person's self control?

We can see the effects of people getting high on drugs or on alcohol
I don't think I have ever seen anyone getting high on just food

But like I said in my previous post, I see no real value in getting bogged down on this

The reason why we dont see the effects of getting high on food, as everyone eats it, we dont see any abnormalities about it.

Caffeine is also a drug and almost everyone does it, there are no real visible effects of that either.
Furthermore, we are not biologically dependent on food really are we?? there have been cases of 'saints' or 'sadhus' who feed of air, not food or any solids. Foods are a drug, a very strong drug that we are dependent on.

I think a drug is defined as something that when taken can alter the mind and body when taken, and can cause dependency or something?? my minds are bit dusty on that, but it was along those lines i reckon?? im pretty sure food follows that definition, although you can correct me if im wrong though.

 

[findingmyway]

findingmyway said that there is a big difference between food and intoxicants. However, even food is a intoxicant, you are dependent on food, it releases endorphines in your brain. It can be classed as a drug, as what you eat can alter your mind just like a drug.

In that case;
1) If you believe they are the same why do you eat food?
2) I can't live without food as I am already underweight so please direct me to the self help group for addicts to food!

Food does not change your mental state in the same way as intoxicants so the effects are not comparable. However, if you show me scientific evidence to the contrary I will be happy to change my stance and stop eating :interestedsingh:

 

[spnadmin]

The reason why we dont see the effects of getting high on food, as everyone eats it, we dont see any abnormalities about it.

Caffeine is also a drug and almost everyone does it, there are no real visible effects of that either.
Furthermore, we are not biologically dependent on food really are we?? there have been cases of 'saints' or 'sadhus' who feed of air, not food or any solids. Foods are a drug, a very strong drug that we are dependent on.

I think a drug is defined as something that when taken can alter the mind and body when taken, and can cause dependency or something?? my minds are bit dusty on that, but it was along those lines i reckon?? im pretty sure food follows that definition, although you can correct me if im wrong though.

Starvation (you don't eat food) versus nourishment (you eat food)

 

[wth]

In that case;
1) If you believe they are the same why do you eat food?
2) I can't live without food as I am already underweight so please direct me to the self help group for addicts to food!

Food does not change your mental state in the same way as intoxicants so the effects are not comparable. However, if you show me scientific evidence to the contrary I will be happy to change my stance and stop eating :interestedsingh:

Food does change your mental state, everyone knows that, the molecules of food you eat are broken down are rebuilt into the chemicals in your body, did you not know that brother??

@seeker sorry, i may have made a mistake in what i said, forgive me, i did not mean to say that we can basically live without food, if thats how it sounded. We need food to eat, but there are many people out there who have turned it into a addiction.

Deleted material. wth ji I am struggling with my conscience to keep this thread open. Really the choices boil down to a) the thread is closed b) you are banned as a member either temporarily or permanently c) you move on and we forget the trolling that has been going on here.

 

[Seeker9]

The reason why we dont see the effects of getting high on food, as everyone eats it, we dont see any abnormalities about it.

No if there was anything intoxicating about it, we would see it more often. The fact we don't serves to validate my previous point

Caffeine is also a drug and almost everyone does it, there are no real visible effects of that either.

There can be very real physical effects if taken in excess

Furthermore, we are not biologically dependent on food really are we?? there have been cases of 'saints' or 'sadhus' who feed of air, not food or any solids.

For their entire lifetime? I think not! Food is fuel! Our cells are constantly regenenerating; skin, nails, hair. There are fundamental biological process dependent on the vitamins and minerals we consume. I really don't understand how you could even suggest we are not biologically dependent on food!

Foods are a drug, a very strong drug that we are dependent on.

No they are not!

I think a drug is defined as something that when taken can alter the mind and body when taken, and can cause dependency or something?? my minds are bit dusty on that, but it was along those lines i reckon?? im pretty sure food follows that definition, although you can correct me if im wrong though

.[/QUOTE]

I think you are getting bogged down in the definitions. Would Sikhism prohibit the consumption of a cough medicine or other basic bog standard cold/flu remedy? What is the crux of the issue. For me it is the loss of control as Sikhism requires mental discipline.

So I ask again ..what is most likely to cause the loss of control and self-discipline? Intoxicating (and I mean genuinely intoxicating and not just causing a chemical reaction...I drink coffee and tea daily and am intoxicated by neither!) substances like alcoholic drinks or recreational drugs (note the emphasis on recreational and not aspirin!) or food???

I daresay you may respond to this but I sense already we are going in circles and I think I have made the same point a number of times so this will be my last post on this particular aspect

Thanksrangesingh:

 

[findingmyway]

wth ji,

Please can I interject here and address some of your concerns. The reason for moderating your posts are as follows;

1) You have repeated essentially the same argument everytime. Discussion can only move forward if new points are raised rather than repeating the same thing. Not everyone agrees in life so sometimes we have to agree to disagree to move forward. An example of this is the moral argument. You have stated your position at least 4 times. This means the discussion goes round and round in circles.
2) You have used only 1 shabad in your defence. That was reinterpreted with evidence from language and grammar to support the meaning. A number of other shabads have been quoted in this thread and the other one to show Gurbani neither rejects nor advocates meat eating, therefore it is personal choice.

All members are welcome. All we ask is that you read others views, evaluate then move forward. Nobody is denying you the right to be vegetarian. No-one is endorsing meat eating. The discussion is about what gurbani says and the quotes from Guru Granth Sahib ji have been discussed extensively on this thread and 'Fools Wrangle Over Flesh'. Once you have read other all these, any unanswered questions are welcomed. Repeating questions doesn't help anyone! Moderating ensures discussions stay issue focussed and move forward.

I hope this answers your questions. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[spnadmin]

The thread is closed for now. findingmyway ji has the last word.

 

[spnadmin]

The thread has been closed for 6 hours. I have deleted Moderators' comments following notice that the thread was closed This Thread is Closed.