I Refuse To Bow To Guru's Pic. Am I Right?

[Ishna]

Scarlet Pimpernel ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. All experiences, spiritual or not can be shared and interacted with. Sikhi is based on it.

I agree that all literature either holy or not can be read literally provided it is read in its original form, not in the literal incorrect, misleading translations. Here, we are talking about the latter.

Bhagat Nam Dev does not say in the Shabad. That is what the incorrect literal translation says.

Gyani ji has explained the shabad very well. I would suggest that you go through it again.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

What is the literal translation of the Gurbani words to English, word-for-word, if you can, please?

ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.

One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause||

 

[Tejwant Singh]

What is the literal translation of the Gurbani words to English, word-for-word, if you can, please?

ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.

One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause||

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have answered your question. The literal translation in English word by word is what you have posted. However, that is not what the message of the Shabad is. Sidh Gosht and Babarvani are just 2 examples in the SGGS our only Guru. Sikhi is based on questioning and finding answers."Mil Sadh Sangat bhaj keval Naam", as the Gurbani says means study, interact and practice with the like minded or not so like minded but who are ready to interact. This is the essence of learning in Sikhi.

In this typical Shabad, Bhagat Nam Dev ji is kind of taunting the egotistic Pundit about his nonsensical babble which has nothing to do with Ik Ong Kaar but about Me-ism. Hence, he is saying that people who are attuned with The Source do not flaunt it.

I hope it clears your query.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Ishna]

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have answered your question. The literal translation in English word by word is what you have posted. However, that is not what the message of the Shabad is. Sidh Gosht and Babarvani are just 2 examples in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru. Sikhi is based on questioning and finding answers."Mil Sadh Sangat bhaj keval Naam", as the Gurbani says means study, interact and practice with the like minded or not so like minded but who are ready to interact. This is the essence of learning in Sikhi.

In this typical Shabad, Bhagat Nam Dev ji is kind of taunting the egotistic Pundit about his nonsensical babble which has nothing to do with Ik Ong Kaar but about Me-ism. Hence, he is saying that people who are attuned with The Source do not flaunt it.

I hope it clears your query.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

That's great, thanks Tejwant ji. I just wanted clarity on the point of whether the problem was the translation or the interpretation.

In this case, it's the interpretation which is off, not the translation. Thanks

 

[Tejwant Singh]

That's great, thanks Tejwant ji. I just wanted clarity on the point of whether the problem was the translation or the interpretation.

In this case, it's the interpretation which is off, not the translation. Thanks

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

There is no interpretation, so it can not be off. Only literal translation is given which does not do any justice to the beautiful Gurbani, but to the contrary, hence misleading. Any scholar who translates something from one language to the other; especially poetry has the duty to explain what the original author is trying to convey, otherwise literal translations become dangerously useless and meaningless.

 

[Ishna]

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

There is no interpretation, so it can not be off. Only literal translation is given which does not do any justice to the beautiful Gurbani, but to the contrary, hence misleading. Any scholar who translates something from one language to the other; especially poetry has the duty to explain what the original author is trying to convey, otherwise literal translations become dangerously useless and meaningless.

If the English translation is a literal translation of the Gurbani, that means the Gurbani says pretty much exactly what the English says. So, if a Punjabi speaking person read the exact same passage and was not aware of what the original author is trying to convey, they will likewise have a literal, dangerously useless and meaningless understanding of the verse.

Therefore, it's not the translation's problem.

The poetry is presuming a level of background understanding or that the reader will know the context, the kind that was provided to us by Gyaniji, for the benefit of English and Punjabi readers.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

If the English translation is a literal translation of the Gurbani, that means the Gurbani says pretty much exactly what the English says. So, if a Punjabi speaking person read the exact same passage and was not aware of what the original author is trying to convey, they will likewise have a literal, dangerously useless and meaningless understanding of the verse.

Therefore, it's not the translation's problem.

The poetry is presuming a level of background understanding or that the reader will know the context, the kind that was provided to us by Gyaniji, for the benefit of English and Punjabi readers.

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

Probably I was not able to express what I wanted to say in a proper manner, so let me try it in a different way.

First and foremost, Bhagat Bani is one of the most intricate and a bit difficult to understand unlike most of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Arjan Dev ji added Gurbani of 15 Bhagats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who were scattered all over India with different languages, dialects and cultural values unlike our Sikh Gurus who were all Punjabis. The 5th Guru chose some of their poetry which jived with the Sikhi marg of pragmatism. Not all of it. The Bhagats were all originally Hindus but evolved with time through their travels around India, towards the Oneness in all. Hence, only that kind of poetry was chosen by Guru Sahib.

Bhagat Namdev travelled all the way to Punjab which is thousands of miles from his birth place. They all used the mixture of different languages. So, it takes a bit of deep studies to understand the true meaning literally in the original language.

Let’s try to understand the rahao part that you posted.
ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.

One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause||

The word ਛਪਾਇਓ in Gurmukhi does not mean to keep quiet in literal translation but it means to hide, to shut up or not to flaunt..

As Sant Singh Khalsa, the translator is a Sikh Scholar, one expects him to understand the words in the original language /Gurmukhi/Punjabi so well that they can be translated in the right manner.

Scholars are there to make things easier for a lay person like me to grasp the meaning in which Sant Singh Khalsa has failed because he has translated the Punjabi words incorrectly, hence made it more difficult to comprehend what Bhagat Namdev is talking about. It is not only in this Shabad but in most of his translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. BTW Gyani ji did a great service to decipher the Shabad.

One other main error is the use of the word Lord for Ik Ong Kaar We all know Lord is used for a deity which Sikhi rejects and I personally never use it. In fact I wrote about it in a little article here on SPN many years ago. I will try to locate it and post it again.

If I am not mistaken Sant Singh Khalsa is a Sikh convert from Christianity/Judaism and from his literal translations, one can gather that he has not mastered the Gurmukhi/ Punjabi language well as yet, and it is also not possible not to carry the Christian/Judaic baggage which becomes innately etched in oneself due to the environmental and multi-generational factors.

As mentioned earlier, the original translations into English were done by the Christian Missionaries not by any Sikhs. That is why we see the old Biblical slant of the words like thou, thee, Lord etc. etc. in the translations. The Sikhs who studied under the missionaries' tutelage also used the same method. Bhai Manmohan Singh is one of them.

We are in desperate need of a great modern translation in English. Ambarsaria ji has done a great job in some and so has Findingmyway ji on Sidh Gosht. One day someone will add something more.

If you understand Gurmukhi, then I would suggest you take a look at Prof. Sahib Singh's Teeka in which Prof. ji explains the meaning of Gurbani the best so far. It would be a great start for you. I, myself use different Teekas for the same Shabad to grasp the idea better.

On a side note,for you to have a better idea about Bhagat Bani, please look at the Saloks of Sheikh Farid on SPN.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Here we go: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/186-lord-as-ik-ong-kaar.html

One more for your consideration: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...nslations-word-word-translations-gurbani.html

 

[Luckysingh]

One who has found the lord then shuts up !
The one who rambles on about it, has NOT found the Lord.

I think that's the message,more or less ...correct ?

 

[spnadmin]

One who has found the lord then shuts up !
The one who rambles on about it, has NOT found the Lord.

I think that's the message,more or less ...correct ?

Luckysingh ji

I agree. The people who take center stage and yes, ramble, as in give rambling lectures about finding the lord - how and when and why and where and what everyone else needs to know - and they are in the know. Whenever I spot that I think that is someone who lives in his/her head... it is all theoretical, and also kind of sad.

 

[Luckysingh]

It's OK, I wasn't trying to state, I was just confirming that I got the rahao correct.
Thanks to everyone's contributions did I actually begin to see the fault in the translation.
I too would have thought that it meant 'keep quiet, it's my little secret...shhhh!'

 

[Harry Haller]

I am quite averse to basing posts on Sakhis, but this one seems well known,

If one truly knew God, you would think they would be the first to climb a stadium and start sharing, but I do not think it works that way, they say the 9th master spent his time in quiet contemplation, while all around proclaimed themself Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur behaved just as I would have expected a man of God to behave, instead of running round telling all he was Guru, he waited for the right oppertunity, and made a statement of self deprecating humour,' hey wheres the rest of the gold?'

I believe true men of God, those with the supreme connection, help, point, assist, nurture, teach, advise, all of us, in ways we could not even imagine, it is only the foolish, or those that know some, but not all, that proclaim, 'yes, I know God'.

 

[Awakeand Singh]

I am quite averse to basing posts on Sakhis, but this one seems well known,

If one truly knew God, you would think they would be the first to climb a stadium and start sharing, but I do not think it works that way, they say the 9th master spent his time in quiet contemplation, while all around proclaimed themself Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur behaved just as I would have expected a man of God to behave, instead of running round telling all he was Guru, he waited for the right oppertunity, and made a statement of self deprecating humour,' hey wheres the rest of the gold?'

I believe true men of God, those with the supreme connection, help, point, assist, nurture, teach, advise, all of us, in ways we could not even imagine, it is only the foolish, or those that know some, but not all, that proclaim, 'yes, I know God'.

Conversely, I believe it was I J Singh who pointed out that the quickest way to lose the Guru's nadar is to think that you've got it!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

After this lesson..i hope everyone will take a good hard look at the Sant Singh Khalsa MISTRANSLATION which has gained popularity simply due to being the first kid on the Block...not for being CORRECT or to the POINT or CLOSE to the ORIGINAL as Prof Sahib Singh Jis SGGS Darpan is !!

1. The SIKH GURUS are Simple Folks..using the Simple language and idiom

2. The Sikh Gurus NEVER hide anything...no such thing as "secret..dont tell anyone..shhhhhhhhh....EVERY treasure is on the Table..every Card Face side up ( as Tejwant Ji form Las Vegas would definitely second !!)

3. There is a Vast background to SGGS Gurbani...it helps to get to that before attempting simplistic translations - Its sad to note that there are two EXTREMES in SGGS Teekas..the SAFFRONISED ONES.. and the CHRISTIANISED ONES....BOTH FAIL to address the Originality of SGGS. Dont fall for the gold plating or Haldi plating....the Colour of SGGS is...XANTHIC !!cheerleader