Atheism Is Atheism The Ultimate Sikhi?

[davinderdhanjal]

Sikhi and Atheism
Sikhi is learning and the truth. In today’s language Education.
Our gurus taught us to keep hair for very good reasons. By trying to cut a bit here and there we set an example for ourselves to say if we can do that why not the other and so on and Sikhi becomes a ‘noise like capilliaries’ rather than a strong principle. (I am sure there are more reasons than that)
I will try to explain by likening it to the blood flow in the body. We start with the heart and arteries and end at the capillaries. Losing a few capillaries by accident does not stop the heart function – it may not even impair any bodily function. However if the bigger arteries are damaged – body function can be affected.
If any part of the heart is damaged then it is considered abnormal. Now consider Sikhi to the healthy heart and Atheism as healthy capillaries. Atheism is a very broad set of rules that an ordinary person may not have the time in their life time to make sense of for good life leave alone trying to get out of the 8.4m rut. Gurus have worked hard to cut it down to few visible arteries and sacrificed their lives to show that it is important enough.
Now which end would you like to start at or where would like to end up. I have no disrespect for any other religion but I choose one which is the youngest and with Shabad Guru written by the ones who got it from the Lord rather than those written from memory centuries later.
If you do not follow the Sikhi as Gurus laid it out then you place yourself somewhere between the capillaries and the heart – you are the best judge.
To check out the strength, personality and commitment of the believers (recent ones with information on the net) try Yogi Harbajan Singh (of 3HO) and Bhai Randhir Singh just to mention two. [/FONT]

 

[findingmyway]

veerji, i accept completely your posting, what i would like someone to tell me is what happens when I die, what are my options, reincarnation? according to a post by Giani Jarnail Singh, there is no reincarnation, this is the only life we get and then we die, and then what?

Also I would argue the last line, I never do sewa with myself in mind, I see sewa as something I just have to do, a responsibility if you like, My wife has her heart in it, and she does it solely for the receiver, I on the other hand feel compelled to do it, but I still feel whatever reasons there are for doing sewa, as long as sewa gets done, that is a good start. However , and forgive me for any offence, but surely the sikh way is to do sewa for god, ie, to see god in the receiver.

So if anyone would kindly explain to me what to expect when i die I would be most happy
icecreammunda

What happens we die? In short no-one knows as no-one has come back to tell us! Here is some interesting reading. A lot of ideas are discussed so it's worth taking the time to go through all 11 pages of the thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/9096-reincarnation.html

I don't do seva for God but to do my bit for the world we live in. I always feel like my efforts are inadequate but I thank Waheguru I have the opportunity to do something. My efforts are for the happiness I get from others or from the knowledge I'm not just standing on the sidelines rather than for some afterlife I may or may not have. My efforts are to become less selfish and be at more peace with myself. However, this is my personal view only. I guess we all have different inspirations.

Many of the posters have made some very good points. I would like to add that the morality is one half of Sikhi, which it shares with atheism or any other ism. The other side is spirituality which atheism does not have. The 2 aspects are interwined in Sikhi and that is why it cannot be atheism.

Sikhi is a personal journey as is life. Each of us has to choose our own path.
J Kaur.

 

[chamkaur brar]

Respected Harry,Your storyisrealy interesting story. i think it should be discussed on every dinner table why our kids are going away from sikhi. Your story is telling us lot. if you permit me " can i share this story with our local Sangat.' i feel that the parents of kids like you can learn lot from their kids if they will tell their point of view.
Rupinder ji very well, detailed written answer. basically one has to find oneself by reading Gurbani.
Chamkaur Brar

 

[karam]

whatever immoral acts other sikhs indulge in, dont alter my faith in sikhi, Guru sahibans are not responsible for the immoral acts of some sikhs, whatever good or bad stuff happens to us is our karma, more truth we have in our lives closer we get to God, who knows some atheists could be closer to God and for some people seva etc could be an act to hide their misdeeds behind sikh saroop.
I was an atheist at one point in my life but suddenly by the Guru's grace I came to the realization that everything in the universe is not jud or physical, there is non physical reality too whatever you wanna call it spirit, waheguru, god or conscious energy of the universe, I hope Harry jee will also find that missing piece in his puzzle, when I was an atheist I wasn't at peace but now I am

 

[Harry Haller]

Respected Harry,Your storyisrealy interesting story. i think it should be discussed on every dinner table why our kids are going away from sikhi. Your story is telling us lot. if you permit me " can i share this story with our local Sangat.' i feel that the parents of kids like you can learn lot from their kids if they will tell their point of view.
Rupinder ji very well, detailed written answer. basically one has to find oneself by reading Gurbani.
Chamkaur Brar

Hesse once said in his book, that there are only two ways to enlightenment, through god, and through the flesh, but not through both. Whatever I have learn't in my life has been through the flesh and it has taken me 15 years just to get to the start of the path, tell the youngsters that they can save a lot of time, pain, misery (and possibly a couple of heart attacks) if they take the first way. Tell them to have faith in god and in parents, tell them that although the second path looks inviting and exciting, there is nothing as exciting as the truth. Tell them that to ride the middle ground, and indudlge in a bit of flesh and a bit of god will only see them sink into the abyss of the bourgeois, tell them not to be impressed by the big mercedes and the smart houses, tell them that salvation lies in the men that toil in the fields and share everything with anyone

many thanks fo your kind compliments Chamkaurji, if the fire and brimstone that has moulded me can do any good at all, I am honoured for my story to be shared,

 

[Harry Haller]

Having read a few more threads on here regarding atheism, I am now in the enviable place of not even being sure of my credentials as an atheist!

However just so that I can rest in peace regarding what I was trying to say in this thread, and having noted the opinions of more able atheists than myself, I still feel there is mileage in the concept of behaving like a sikh, embracing all sikh values, but not praying, nor looking like a sikh. Why? you might ask.

Well if I were to prioritise the benefits of being a sikh, and we could all do this with different priorities on different things, I think the number one would be to accept the will of god. I was unfortunate enough to have had a quad bypass, lying waiting to be wheeled into theatre, I knew mum and dad had been praying all night, I did not speak to god, I did not speak to him, because the sort of god that I wanted in my life was not the sort of god that would spare a life because he had been prayed too, so the acceptance of gods will, in my humble view, is defeated by praying and asking for your own , or indeed , others ends. What sort of god is willing to change the way of the world because he is being lauded?

Secondly, do his work, there is much of gods work to be done out there, until the day arrives when you do not see anyone in pain, or in hunger or being attacked, then there is work to be done.

Thirdly, Free yourself from the ego and pride that can waste so much time, I am fortunate enough to be thought of as a complete idiot. My customers and associates know me as a fool with no social skills.This suits me fine as I have no grace to fall from, I dress in shorts, odd socks, boots and a normally stained T shirt (uhmm have I taken the lack of pride too far). The only people I dress up for are my mum and dad

Fourthly, earn your money honestly and without cheating

I think that is it, there are no other facets of sikhism that I have any interest in, for some reason I believe it is vital that I DO NOT believe in god, maybe I feel that without the attraction of pleasing him, that makes me a better sikh, not a better sikh than any here, but a better sikh than I could be if I did believe.

We are all different, we all have our own ideoligy and view the holy scriptures in our own way, if we did not, there would not be so much debate here as there is. I am sure the time will come when god will deem I am ready to go to the next level, and as such when it happens that will be good, but is it wrong of me to attempt to hurry that process up, when the one thing I do believe is that I cannot and should not do anything that would change or question his will

 

[Ambarsaria]

Harry Haller ji just comments on couple of paragraphs in your post as excerpted below,

I think that is it, there are no other facets of sikhism that I have any interest in, for some reason

• I believe it is vital that I DO NOT believe in god,
  • Personally my interpretation and understanding of Gurus teachings and Gurbani is that it encourages you as follows,
    • Focus is much on understanding rather than believing
    • Understanding of what,
      • One creation/creator and at times for simplicity it is called God
      • Understanding is never complete and Gurbani teaches to not be vain or wasteful to know all or discover all or pretend to be doing so
    • People who believe that they have become Gursikh by taking baptization, abiding by Sikh Rehat Maryada and doing Nitnem are falling way short if they stop learning and understanding Gurbani
      • • Such have only done a taste test and never fully consumed a meal offered by our Gurus
    • Conversely people who have not taken baptization yet (can get baptized any time) but have made much effort in understanding Gurus teachings and Gurbani can get ahead of any of the lifers who got baptized first and never followed it up with study peacesign
      
• maybe I feel that without the attraction of pleasing him, that makes me a better sikh, not a better sikh than any here, but a better sikh than I could be if I did believe.

  • attraction of pleasing him

    , I am sorry I don't understand who drilled that in your psyche as that is what is expected of a Sikh
  • Again Sikhism is understanding driven of one creation and living in consonance with the creation through ever increasing understanding
    • There are lot of Babey, preachers who do play pleasing God part up quite a bit versus understanding God or creation
      • Reason it is much easier to preach so and is profitable as this somehow implies that they gotten to the secret of doing so versus other mortals
        • Truth perhaps is far from it peacesign
          

• We are all different, we all have our own ideoligy and view the holy scriptures in our own way, if we did not, there would not be so much debate here as there is.

  • I am sure the time will come when god will deem I am ready to go to the next level

    , you are in the moment all through your life as understanding is a continuous process. You can proactively seek greater understanding or the school of hard knocks will teach you in dribs and drabs.
• and as such when it happens that will be good, but is it wrong of me to attempt to hurry that process up, when the one thing I do believe is that

  • I cannot and should not do anything that would change or question his will

    again object is to understand creation and its ways as much as you can. God has no interest nor the need to listen once your process of understanding is initiated voluntarily or involuntarily.
    • God is not watching if you brush every morning to clean your teeth to prevent cavities or gum disease
    • God or creation has given various faculties to life forms to be in consonance with selves and what is around, it is not nature's job to supervise
      • Nature and creation will continue regardless, many a times in ways that we have no understanding of yet and at times disastrously so
        • Parameters of creation are unfathomable in time, space, energy or mass
          

Some different but peaceful renditions that I have come across and I like,

YouTube - Awal Allah Noor Upaya - Kalam Baba Bahgat Kabir ji - Alam Lohar (Audio)


http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=1349&L=19&id=57707

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YouTube - Ooch Apaar Beant Swami Kaun Jaane by Alam Lohar

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=802&L=16&id=34271

Sat Sri Akal
​

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[Harry Haller]

Many thanks for your inspirational comments Ambarsariaji,

I have learned alot since joining here, not least that I had some huge misconceptions about sikhism. I think it is time to read the SGGS. I look forward to a more knowledgable debate once I have educated myself

 

[chamkaur brar]

Harry,
I appreciate you lot that you made decision to understand our Gurbani and then make exact concept about our sikhi. i want to advise you to look sources for your referrnce. one of them is Prof. Sahib Singh's work which i think close to 95% is on right path but missionary colleges work is very close to perfection. This is only for your reference.
Harry, One time I asked your permission if I can put up your story in our local sangat. Please permit if you can.
Chamkaur Brar

 

[findingmyway]

Many thanks for your inspirational comments Ambarsariaji,

I have learned alot since joining here, not least that I had some huge misconceptions about sikhism. I think it is time to read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I look forward to a more knowledgable debate once I have educated myself

Harry ji,
Here's a great place to start
Feel free to share your discoveries as you go along!

 

[Harry Haller]

Chamkaurji, I would be honoured if you did

Rightly or Wrongly, I have decided to spend 7 days giving weight to that inner voice I have always thought of as boring, it could be my conscience, or possibly a moral compass, I'm not too sure, what I do know is that this sort of change will take time, understanding, trust and faith, and also knowledge.

An ex friend (actually all my friends are now ex friends!) who tried to convert me to christianity, informed me that all I had to do was get on my knees and beg christ to enter my life, and all would be ok. That person was a charismatic christian, (yes , they of the laying of hands and speaking in tongues). Also,I noted he was a god fearing man, I'm not sure I wanted to be scared of god, and it all seemed a bit like love at first sight, rather than a nurtured deep and understanding relationship that takes time and effort.

I realise at this time that my conception of god within sikhism was wrong. I admit that much of conception was based on the abrahamic ideal, where god is pleased, angry, etc. So rather than jump in with both feet and suddenly go out buying turbans (the turban I am looking forward to, on account of my baldness, but please may I be spared beard fixo), I am going to take my time, and gently nudge myself towards a different direction

My understanding now is that god is within us, and in every living thing on earth.I need to just listen to it, and love it, and accept that there are two ways of doing everything, the way that comes from the heart and god, or your own way. Is it possible that they will both bring similar conclusions, as fate would imply, but instead of just existing, you are actually living.

rangesingh:

 

[Ambarsaria]

Harry Haller my friend ji, that is so short and sweet and indeed is the essence of Sikhism for those who get it!

On your business side, I heard too many stories that if you achieved success once you can do so again. So don't be discouraged from the past and rise up. If nothing else you may be able to help lot more people with your worldly success you are still capable of achieving.

Take care and Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harry Haller]

Ambarsariaji,

It would be impossible to do again, that success was founded on corruption, lies and subterfuge. Whereas my current non success is founded on something else, however I think I prefer the non success, at least I can look in the mirror in the morning!

many thanks for your kind words

 

[RamanS]

Sat Sri Akal Harry Haller ji,

Your story is inspirational to hear. I too am in the process of learning more about Sikhi and understanding "God". This process of understanding is slow but fascinating. I too have noticed my perception and thought process subtly change and instead of getting through the day on auto-pilot I am more aware of all things around me. It is a beautiful feeling when you can focus your whole mind on Waheguru and then spread your minds attention to your surroundings to appreciate all creation. Good luck on your journey!

 

[Ambarsaria]

RamanS ji you may want to browse the following thread if you haven't already.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/34206-did-i-feed-the-birds.html

Little light dialog on how we are one with all and all is one with us!

mundahugmundahugmundahug


Sat Sri Akal.
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[Harry Haller]

Yesterday did not go as I had hoped, although I did not do anything inherently evil, and I would like to think I did some good, my inner voice did not speak to me all day. It was a hard day full of life's normal problems which we all face, and I have to confess that finding the truth is a lot easier in a quiet room, than it is on a normal working day.

I also discovered something else, as ye sow, so shall ye reap, there seem to be too many plants growing that I have seeded some time ago, that I would not sow now. But you cannot just change direction 180 degrees without regard for what you may have started in times gone by. I always thought sewa was sewa, it never occurred to me that there could be bad sewa. Bad for yourself, bad for the person you are doing it for. Our interaction with every other living thing on this earth is a huge responsibility, but the truth is the truth, and blindly throwing good sewa willy nilly is perhaps an abuse of the process.

So this is what makes sikhism different to most other religions, you have to use your brain, and you have to think and you have to have faith, and the whole process of finding that truth to any satisfaction could take a lifetime.

I will have to read the book soon, better I have the definitive rather than try and find the truth alone.

 

[Randip Singh]

Ambarsariaji,

It would be impossible to do again, that success was founded on corruption, lies and subterfuge. Whereas my current non success is founded on something else, however I think I prefer the non success, at least I can look in the mirror in the morning!

many thanks for your kind words

Harry, just reading through your posts gives me the impresion :

1) You are very spiritual
2) You ideals are very much along the Nanakian philosophy.

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry, just reading through your posts gives me the impresion :

1) You are very spiritual
2) You ideals are very much along the Nanakian philosophy.

I am honoured Randipji, in my previous lives I have been validated much by fools and sycophants, (and the odd elephant), but such your validation means much, thank you

 

[Harry Haller]

Another day has passed, and still the inner voice is quiet.Mulling this over at around 5pm yesterday I lay in bed with my 2 dogs and wondered why, at the very moment I had decided to give some weight to this mysterious voice inside me, it had gone quiet. I remembered something ambarsariaji had written about animals and looking into an animals eyes. The elder dog, alfie, a black flat coated retriever, was my mother in law's guide dog, when she died, alfie came to live with us, he is old now with white beard, and he is obsessed with my wife, he will wait downstairs all day till she comes home, and then sleeps at the bottom of the bed by her feet. I looked into Alfie's eyes and saw my grandfathers eyes, peaceful, but also something else, acceptance, a look of complete acceptance. I looked at my other dog, dan, who I have known since he was a puppy, a cross lab/boxer, much younger than alfie, in his eyes there was love, but also fear, the look of someone who has everything and is terrified of losing it.

I thought about what I had learned since reading through the enormous amount of material here, no heaven, no hell, no abrahamic miracles, just plain good honest truth. At this point I realised possibly where I was going wrong, there was lots of truths, but no love. I could hear my inner voice in the peace of the bedroom, but it was barely a whisper. Did I love the voice, no, I do not think I did, did I love myself? If I were to be honest, I suppose I loathed myself. Did this seem to affect the process, yes, I think it would. I imagined being the sort of person who did japji every morning, and wondered if it were possible I would be happy. Suppose instead of following the truth,you loved the truth, loved it enough that waking up in the morning you couldn't wait to say good morning to the truth and express your love for it in the way of prayer, 30 mins of ecstasy that you would treasure in the same way as writing a long love letter to your wife.

The path suddenly seemed clearer, instead of concentrating in living a good life and doing what god wants, with a reward of everlasting milk and honey next to a white bearded sage, the object was to live that life here on earth, following the truth, loving the truth, until that feeling of ecstasy fills you that all you want to do is sing to god and praise god, not because of fear or order, but because your heart wills you to.

Is it possible that the feeling of love for god surpasses any other fix in this life, maybe its better than any drug or drink.

So, clearly the more I loved this truth, the louder the words would be.

My wife came home around 6pm, as usual the dogs ran downstairs madly excited, Alfie ran first, then ran back to look for something as a gift. Every day, he will present my wife with a gift, sometimes its my boot, or my pants, today it is a pink plastic pig (the pig of happiness). We had tea, and I explained my current situation, and discussed my new found theories. My wife listened quietly, and then said, well if that is sikhism, then I am and always have been a sikh.

Thank you for allowing me to share this :redturban:

 

[chamkaur brar]

here you go.!
You are on right path. There is no hell or heaven, no fear of god just His love. Live life like normal individual with SAt [ high moral character], SANTOKH [ contentment],DAYA [ Compassion], DHARAM { Faith and responsibility], VICHAR [ analytical right thinking ] and go over morning and evening ofr constant reminders of all above by reAQDING jAPJI AND REHRAS AND FINALLY PRAYERER TO ALMIGHTY FOR EVERY BODY. This is sikhi. No mirale, just plain simple living.
Chamkaur Brar