Atheism Is Atheism The Ultimate Sikhi?

[Harkiran Kaur]

Harkiranji states that the truth and God were always there, as one, then there is the other opinion that the truth superseded God. As humans, we are logical beings, and I do believe Guru Nanak pursued logic rather than superstition and miracles, so how can the truth that he attempted to teach us not be logical and simply understandable? The statement that God discovered the truth therefore needs more explaining.

Using Logic:

God is all that ever existed or will exist - unity - formless (Nirgun)
If truth existed as something separate then there is not ONEness so truth was not discovered but just IS. Since God is all there is then God IS that truth.
All else happens within God - duality (Sargun formed expression of the ONE). Truth is within God. Truth IS God.

Mool Mantra is very clear on this.

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

just to clarify, no I am not saying atheist sikhs are best, nor am I saying atheism = sikhism, what I am saying is that the only tenant of sikhism that seemed to interest me was sewa rather than a personal relationship with god

there is no such thing as an atheist sikh, you either believe or you do not.

I am also not lauding my wife, the question I am merely posing is this

take two sikhs, one worships god at every moment but does little sewa, the other does nothing but sewa and hardly thinks about god, which sikh has embraced the bigger ideal, thank you

In Sikhism, Guru Nanak laid three fundamentals: Kirat Karna, Naam Japna, vand Chhakna'; they all should go on simultaneously.

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

Harkiranji states that the truth and God were always there, as one, then there is the other opinion that the truth superseded God. As humans, we are logical beings, and I do believe Guru Nanak pursued logic rather than superstition and miracles, so how can the truth that he attempted to teach us not be logical and simply understandable? The statement that God discovered the truth therefore needs more explaining.

Logic is not truth and truth not logic. These are two different pedestals. God was, is and will be the Truth, so says Guru Nanak. Truth is an attribute/quality as well as a reality here. He created an ever changeable universe; nothing remaining the same the next minute. What ever changes cannot be called a stable or permanent truth. Permanent Truth is the one which does not change. God is the Permanent truth as per the definition given in the Shlok after manglacharan Ikongkaar. Creation being transitory hence is not the truth, though he created the Universe is a truth. Truth is not a discovery: it is an attribute; it is a quality; however sometime we give names to individuals on the basis of the qualities. 'satnam', 'nirbhau', 'nirvair' etc have been the names given to individuals as well. Truth is thus the name given to the God on the basis of quality; quality name.

 

[Harry]

Logic is not truth and truth not logic.

but surely truth must be logical? a good example of universal truth is gravity, if you fall of a building, you will move in the direction of the ground, it is a clear logical truth, unshrouded in mystery or suberfuge, if my knowledge of Sikh history serves me well, I recall that in most of the stories surrounding Guru Nanak, although many may be fabrication, he followed a path of revealing the truth in a logical and understandable manner, to simply say, this is the truth, but please take my word for it, did not seem part of his remit. How else could he free people from the superstitions and rituals of the time, if the truth had the same attributes? The truth shines so brightly it must be easily understood, easy to prove, easy to show.

 

[Original]

Good evening All - Harry c/o Admin Ji

First n foremost, let me point out the obvious, which should've been picked up by the prudent Sikh that the title "Atheism n Sikh" is logically nonsensical. It's like saying "married-bachelor".

but surely truth must be logical?

..the truth Nanak proclaims is metaphysical.

if my knowledge of Sikh history serves me well,

..which is what, pls cite references ?

How else could he free people from the superstitions and rituals of the time,

..by showing them the way [Sikh] and its three pillars of kr, vs and nj.

The truth shines so brightly it must be easily understood, easy to prove, easy to show.

..metaphysical truths can only be "experienced" by the individual:

"..its your road, and yours alone. Others may walk it with you but no one can walk it for you" - Rumi.

Nanak is absolutely clear, hence, nam simran.

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

but surely truth must be logical? a good example of universal truth is gravity, if you fall of a building, you will move in the direction of the ground, it is a clear logical truth, unshrouded in mystery or suberfuge, if my knowledge of Sikh history serves me well, I recall that in most of the stories surrounding Guru Nanak, although many may be fabrication, he followed a path of revealing the truth in a logical and understandable manner, to simply say, this is the truth, but please take my word for it, did not seem part of his remit. How else could he free people from the superstitions and rituals of the time, if the truth had the same attributes? The truth shines so brightly it must be easily understood, easy to prove, easy to show.

Logic is a methodology and not the subject, while truth is the subject here. Guru Nanak used logic to project truth at some places but not everywhere. He used action as well. I will quote an example: Once some sanyansis came to meet Guru Nanak. While close to Kartarpur they wanted to know the house of Guru Nanak and they found some persons working in the fields. They approached the white beard person whose clothes had gone dirty while working in the field. Reluctantly they asked him about Guru Nanak's place. The old man told them to just wait for a few minutes. The sanaysis saw the old man working along with other men and reciting God's name while working in the field. One of them remarked,"How these working people full of dirt are reciting God's name and that too in a melodious way?" Meanwhile the old man washed his hands and face in the flowing water and came on the track where these sanyasis were waiting. As the old man approached a lady came and kept the food she had brought. The old men called out his fellows for food and requested the sanyasis to have food too. One of the sanyasis remarked," The food will not be sufficient for us. You can have that but guide us to Guru Nanak's house". The Old man said, "All this food is with the kind courtesy of the Lord. It is neither mine nor anyone's else. God has send you to us to share this food. Please do oblige." The lady offered the food to all and they had it since they had been feeling hungry. One of them suddenly remarked:"He must be Guru Nanak who believes in working himself to earn and share with others and reciting Name while working". Truly the Old man was Guru Nanak and the lady was Mata Sulakhni who explained the principle of "Kirat Karna, naam jpana and vand chhakna', through practical example. There was no reasoning involved; no logical discussion but the point was brought home through live example.

 

[Harry]

One of them suddenly remarked:"He must be Guru Nanak who believes in working himself to earn and share with others and reciting Name while working".

I would say that would be a logical thought.

 

[Harry]

First n foremost, let me point out the obvious, which should've been picked up by the prudent Sikh that the title "Atheism n Sikh" is logically nonsensical. It's like saying "married-bachelor".

there are many married men who behave like bachelors..

.the truth Nanak proclaims is metaphysical.

absolutely, but its still the truth, and it still needs to be understood, in a universal fashion as well as metaphysical.

which is what, pls cite references ?

there are many, I am surprised you ask, throwing water to the sun for one.

.by showing them the way [Sikh] and its three pillars of kr, vs and nj.

in effect by showing them the truth, in an understandable and practical manner

..metaphysical truths can only be "experienced" by the individual:

I would say metaphysical truths are universal, how else could one religion stake a claim in teaching these if they were not?

Nanak is absolutely clear, hence, nam simran.

can you explain this, hence nam simran, meaning?

always a pleasure,

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

It was not a logical thought of Guru Nanak but a practical example set by Guru Nanak.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

absolutely, but its still the truth, and it still needs to be understood, in a universal fashion as well as metaphysical.

I would say metaphysical truths are universal, how else could one religion stake a claim in teaching these if they were not?

We are getting there!!

I know I mentioned the double slit experiment before, where it's proven that a conscious observer is required for an electron to behave as a particle (something tangible, manifest - sargun) rather than as a wave (intangible, energy flowing through something else a medium, unmanifest - nirgun). Simply put there were two slits, and an electron was fired towards either slit. When not observed, it actually formed an interference pattern on the wall just as if it had gone through both slits at the same time. When observed, it chose one or the other slit and only the one line formed on the wall.

Well they also took that one further and decided after the electron passed thrgough the slits, whether or not it would be observed. The outcome of the experiment was astounding! In every single attempt at the original experiment, observing it, collapsed the wave function and caused the electron to behave as a solid particle. Meaning it can Only go through one or the other slit but not both at the same time. When they observed it AFTER it passed through the slit already, it actually still collapsed the wave function and only one line was seen! But how can that be when the decision was not made till after it passed through the slits already?? It was like it changed what happened in the past!

It means both time and space are collapsible functions, held together in some physical form only by conscious observation!!! This world is really an illusion. What we experience is not what is 'out there'. In fact our entire experience is in pitch black inside our skull and we are not even seeing directly the world but only electrical signals reaching the back part of our brains called the occipital lobe. Our eyes probably can see many times the information our brains are processing. What if that information is pure frequency and our brains are just showing us the show like on tv. What if the world is like 8k resolution and we are only experiencing Atari from 1980?

anyway just wanted to point out that these things ARE being understood through quantum physics.
If the physical world is not what we are led to believe through our physical senses than what can it be?

For me, the metaphysical and physical MUST have some link where we can grasp it. I think quantum physics is starting to open our eyes... no pun intended!!

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

We are getting there!!

I know I mentioned the double slit experiment before, where it's proven that a conscious observer is required for an electron to behave as a particle (something tangible, manifest - sargun) rather than as a wave (intangible, energy flowing through something else a medium, unmanifest - nirgun). Simply put there were two slits, and an electron was fired towards either slit. When not observed, it actually formed an interference pattern on the wall just as if it had gone through both slits at the same time. When observed, it chose one or the other slit and only the one line formed on the wall.

Well they also took that one further and decided after the electron passed thrgough the slits, whether or not it would be observed. The outcome of the experiment was astounding! In every single attempt at the original experiment, observing it, collapsed the wave function and caused the electron to behave as a solid particle. Meaning it can Only go through one or the other slit but not both at the same time. When they observed it AFTER it passed through the slit already, it actually still collapsed the wave function and only one line was seen! But how can that be when the decision was not made till after it passed through the slits already?? It was like it changed what happened in the past!

It means both time and space are collapsible functions, held together in some physical form only by conscious observation!!! This world is really an illusion. What we experience is not what is 'out there'. In fact our entire experience is in pitch black inside our skull and we are not even seeing directly the world but only electrical signals reaching the back part of our brains called the occipital lobe. Our eyes probably can see many times the information our brains are processing. What if that information is pure frequency and our brains are just showing us the show like on tv. What if the world is like 8k resolution and we are only experiencing Atari from 1980?

anyway just wanted to point out that these things ARE being understood through quantum physics.
If the physical world is not what we are led to believe through our physical senses than what can it be?

For me, the metaphysical and physical MUST have some link where we can grasp it. I think quantum physics is starting to open our eyes... no pun intended!!

You are right in summarising that the world is an illusion. This is what Gurbani has already stated. Experiments show that all the universe is a play of energies played by thought waves emerging continuously in various minds making the world to continuously change. The various forms are continuously made and broken as a resultant of effects of various thought energies. Solid, liquid or gases type of materials is just temporary forms showing that there are no barriers between particle and wave: sargun and nirgun. God and His creation thus should be taken both particle and wave and you are right that it can be either particle or a wave at any one time and cannot be both together at any one time; it may be partially a wave and partially a particle however but not totally a wave as well as particle. Particle physics may be on the way to make more revelations in this direction.

 

[Logical Sikh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
Harry Haller, you have come out with an excellent point and have come to realise the truth.
There is something called past Karma.
Depending upon one’s Karma, one does deeds in this life.
Depending upon one’s Karma, one follows a path where one meets the True Guru.
Depending upon one’s Karma, one does either Sewa or one does pure meditation upon Naam -reciting Gods’ Name.
OR
Depending upon one’s Karma, one does bad deeds in this life and suffer the consequences.
Depending upon one’s Karma, one wanders around the world confused, ridiculed leading a miserable life.
BUT
Depending upon one’s Karma, one’s life takes a turns and one finds the true meaning of life and God.
Harry Haller, I think that moment seems to have come in your life.
Firstly you met a lady who is basically a Sewa Panthi.
Then you come and put up this issue to the readers here and get good input.
Then you feel like going to Harmandir Sahib to sit and listen to Kirtan.
Harry Haller, realise, you are a blessed soul.
When you take your wife there, ask her to sit, shut her eyes and listen to the sound of Kirtan even if she may not understand the words.
Ask her to enjoy the beat of the Tabla, the music from the Harmonium and the blissful singing.
When the right time will come, she will understand.
This is a vast subject and cannot be resolved in a few lines.
The answer lies in bringing your mind and your inner self to listen.
May Waheguru ji show you and your wonderful wife the way.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Can Karma be translated to "SOCH"/ THINKING / THOUGHT PROCESS ? because that makes more sense to me...

 

[sukhsingh]

Can Karma be translated to "SOCH"/ THINKING / THOUGHT PROCESS ? because that makes more sense to me...

I would have to agree with the idea that the pursuit of truth is a methodology and if I may I would say that truth is a fundamental characteristic of the divine.. I personally think about karma in a rational sense .. When we behave in ways at odds with the natural order we create dissonance and then we create our own bad karma just as if we act righteously logically bad karma is less likely.. The individual actor can act to the best of their ability in truthful ways .. We can apply logic and rational thinking to illuminate contradictions and falsehood.. I think we all have to accept that it is a tall order to be truthful all the time but we can retrospectively reflect upon our actions and try and become more truthful..
Reality is a illusion because we will never have the tools to measure things in absolute manner.. We can only measure them to the best of our knowledge .. So like in science we must always strive to refine, and our starting point has to be based on critical thinking ...
Personally that is why Mool mantar is so compelling.. It states a truth that cannot be undermined .. It articulates succinctly in simple way the only things we can say about reality