Is Bisan Of Guru Gobind Singh Jee And Kabeer Jee Different?

[Astroboy]

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ­i­ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

ਰਾਮੁ ਗਇਓ ਰਾਵਨੁ ਗਇਓ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੁ ॥
रामु गइओ रावनु गइओ जा कउ बहु परवारु ॥
Rām ga­i­o rāvan ga­i­o jā ka­o baho parvār.
Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives.
Guru Teg Bahadur - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Archived_member2]

Deletion: Personal attacks against both a moderator and a forum member. Please observe forum rules.

 

[Astroboy]

[SIZE=-1]ਆਸਾ ਇਕਤੁਕੇ ੪ ॥
आसा इकतुके ४ ॥
Āsā ikṯukė 4.
Aasaa, 4 Ik-Tukas:
ਸਰਪਨੀ ਤੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਬਲੀਆ ॥
सरपनी ते ऊपरि नही बलीआ ॥
Sarpanī ṯė ūpar nahī balī­ā.
No one is more powerful than the she-serpent Maya,
ਜਿਨਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਛਲੀਆ ॥੧॥
जिनि ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ छलीआ ॥१॥
Jin barahmā bisan mahāḏė­o cẖẖalī­ā. ||1||
who deceived even Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. ||1||
ਮਾਰੁ ਮਾਰੁ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜਲਿ ਪੈਠੀ ॥
मारु मारु स्रपनी निरमल जलि पैठी ॥
Mār mār sarpanī nirmal jal paiṯẖī.
Having bitten and struck them down, she now sits in the immaculate waters.
ਜਿਨਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਡਸੀਅਲੇ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਡੀਠੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जिनि त्रिभवणु डसीअले गुर प्रसादि डीठी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jin ṯaribẖavaṇ dasī­alė gur parsāḏ dīṯẖī. ||1|| rahā­o.
By Guru's Grace, I have seen her, who has bitten the three worlds. ||1||Pause||
[/SIZE]

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ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਅਕਾਰ ॥
पवणु पाणी अगनि तिनि कीआ ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस अकार ॥
Pavaṇ pāṇī agan ṯin kī­ā barahmā bisan mahės akār.
He created air, water and fire, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva - the whole creation.
ਸਰਬੇ ਜਾਚਿਕ ਤੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥੪॥
सरबे जाचिक तूं प्रभु दाता दाति करे अपुनै बीचार ॥४॥
Sarbė jācẖik ṯūʼn parabẖ ḏāṯā ḏāṯ karė apunai bīcẖār. ||4||
All are beggars; You alone are the Great Giver, God. You give Your gifts according to Your own considerations. ||4||

.................................................................................................

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa­oṛī.
Pauree:
ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸਣੁ ਖੜੇ ॥
तुधु धिआइन्हि बेद कतेबा सणु खड़े ॥
Ŧuḏẖ ḏẖi­ā­īniĥ bėḏ kaṯėbā saṇ kẖaṛė.
The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You.
ਗਣਤੀ ਗਣੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਤੇਰੈ ਦਰਿ ਪੜੇ ॥
गणती गणी न जाइ तेरै दरि पड़े ॥
Gaṇṯī gaṇī na jā­ė ṯėrai ḏar paṛė.
Uncounted are those who fall at Your Door.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਾ ॥
ब्रहमे तुधु धिआइन्हि इंद्र इंद्रासणा ॥
Barahmė ṯuḏẖ ḏẖi­ā­īniĥ inḏar inḏrāsaṇā.
Brahma meditates on You, as does Indra on his throne.
ਸੰਕਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣਾ ॥
संकर बिसन अवतार हरि जसु मुखि भणा ॥
Sankar bisan avṯār har jas mukẖ bẖaṇā.
Shiva and Vishnu, and their incarnations, chant the Lord's Praise with their mouths,
ਪੀਰ ਪਿਕਾਬਰ ਸੇਖ ਮਸਾਇਕ ਅਉਲੀਏ ॥
पीर पिकाबर सेख मसाइक अउलीए ॥
Pīr pikābar sėkẖ masā­ik a­ulī­ė.
as do the Pirs, the spiritual teachers, the prophets and the Shaykhs, the silent sages and the seers.
ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਮਉਲੀਏ ॥
ओति पोति निरंकार घटि घटि मउलीए ॥
Oṯ poṯ nirankār gẖat gẖat ma­ulī­ė.
Through and through, the Formless Lord is woven into each and every heart.
ਕੂੜਹੁ ਕਰੇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ਧਰਮੇ ਤਗੀਐ ॥
कूड़हु करे विणासु धरमे तगीऐ ॥
Kūṛahu karė viṇās ḏẖarmė ṯagī­ai.
One is destroyed through falsehood; through righteousness, one prospers.
ਜਿਤੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਗੀਐ ॥੨॥
जितु जितु लाइहि आपि तितु तितु लगीऐ ॥२॥
Jiṯ jiṯ lā­ihi āp ṯiṯ ṯiṯ lagī­ai. ||2||
Whatever the Lord links him to, to that he is linked. ||2||

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Naam Jap Jee!

This is your wish. The Satsang must go on.

It may increase your curiosity.

The true Guru's Vaaks are these, with translations provided.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ*i*ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.


ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
बनवाली चक्रपाणि दरसि अनूपिआ ॥
Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi*ā.
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

Please ponder. How is this possible? In the referred first Vaak the great Raam Chand has no form and feature. In the next Vaak He is adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in His hand, His form is incomparably beautiful.

**************

Thanks for referring the great Vaaks from the true Gurus mentioning Bisan.
Those all are clearly explaining that Maya has deceived Bisan. HE created Bisan and Bisan chants Hari praise.
Not one of these Vaaks explains that Bisan is the creator.


Balbir Singh

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Dear PK70
your quote" you have no substance to debate, no logic, no understanding of Gurbani add to it your answers as proved, are contradictory, ambigous and judgmental. In debate, such statements are called meritless efforts to debate. I now repent why did I waste my time on an entertainment of a confused mind."

I whole heartedly support you on your above statement. Personal hostility expressed against moderators. Debate the issues. have said in. PK70, You have done a good job at post his laundry on the net. Please debate the issues. Not matter how correct one is he will tell you that you are wrong. This is a long post and I enjoyed reading it. I could not help it to congratulate you. Good job. Please debate the issues not the personalities of moderators.

Just as a point in passing, when Guru ji refers to Ram the King as an example to make a point, he is emphasized as so, all other places Ram is referred to as a Godly attribute.

Kind regards

ekmusafir ajnabi

Same as above.

 

[Astroboy]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Naam Jap Jee!

This is your wish. The Satsang must go on.

It may increase your curiosity.

The true Guru's Vaaks are these, with translations provided.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ*i*ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.


ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
बनवाली चक्रपाणि दरसि अनूपिआ ॥
Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi*ā.
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

Please ponder. How is this possible? In the referred first Vaak the great Raam Chand has no form and feature. In the next Vaak He is adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in His hand, His form is incomparably beautiful.

**************

Thanks for referring the great Vaaks from the true Gurus mentioning Bisan.
Those all are clearly explaining that Maya has deceived Bisan. HE created Bisan and Bisan chants Hari praise.
Not one of these Vaaks explains that Bisan is the creator.


Balbir Singh

Balbir Singh Ji,

This verse of Guru Arjan Dev ji -
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ­i­ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

Are you asking that it is not possible for Raam Chand (one of the Avtaars) to have no form ?

What do you understand by Gur Ishar Gur Gorakh Brahma, Gur Parbati Mai ?

The True Guru is "sarab viapak" - sargun and nirgun. True Guru is Nirankar.
He can take any form He likes. If words to explain the highest Absolute, beyond duality residing Lord God has to be used e.g. Nirankar - devotees of Raam Chand who only know Raam Chand and no one else, have to be explained step by step. Semantics ? Partly yes.

It's like explaining to a kid what estacy means. So we have to go down to the kid's level and start explaining to him/her something he/she can relate to.

Balbir Singh Ji - don't make chatnee out of every thing because you are already tasting your chatnee of Shabad which is within you. Written words cannot convey the real message. You have to taste the chatnee to understand and experience. If you are already experience that 'chatnee' then why bother to come down the rung and create duplicate chatnee in the realm of the written word and spoken speech ?

Charan Kamal Ki Mauj Mein,
Rahay ant ar aad

Did I get the tuk right, PK70 Jee ?
Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Astroboy]

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸਹਿ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਡੋਲੈ ਦੇਵ ॥
चरन कमल जा कै रिदै बसहि सो जनु किउ डोलै देव ॥
Cẖaran kamal jā kai riḏai baseh so jan ki­o dolai ḏėv.
When Your Lotus Feet dwell within one's heart, why should that person waver, O Divine Lord?
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਕੀ ਮਉਜ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਉ ਅੰਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਆਦਿ ॥੧੨੦॥
चरन कमल की मउज महि रहउ अंति अरु आदि ॥१२०॥
Cẖaran kamal kī ma­uj meh raha­o anṯ ar āḏ. ||120||
From beginning to end, I abide in the joy of the Lord's Lotus Feet. ||120||
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear PK70
your quote" you have no substance to debate, no logic, no understanding of Gurbani add to it your answers as proved, are contradictory, ambigous and judgmental. In debate, such statements are called meritless efforts to debate. I now repent why did I waste my time on an entertainment of a confused mind."

I whole heartedly support you on your above statement. Personal hostility expressed against moderators. Debate the issues. have said in. PK70, You have done a good job at post his laundry on the net. Please debate the issues. Not matter how correct one is he will tell you that you are wrong. This is a long post and I enjoyed reading it. I could not help it to congratulate you. Good job. Please debate the issues not the personalities of moderators.

Just as a point in passing, when Guru ji refers to Ram the King as an example to make a point, he is emphasized as so, all other places Ram is referred to as a Godly attribute.

Kind regards

ekmusafir ajnabi

Same as above.

Dear EkMusafir ji

Welcome Back !

Your love for Spn and its posters seems to be ever ending that brings you back yet again .

and I am sorry I missed your Kind words( your post was edited before I read it ) abou t me .But I am sure you have something ineresting and valuable for us .

YOu can share your knowledge about the topic and let all of us know what you think beside your whole hearted support of Sarcastic remarks written by other posters

Thanks

Jatinder Singh

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Dear EkMusafir ji

Welcome Back !

Your love for Spn and its posters seems to be ever ending that brings you back yet again .

and I am sorry I missed your Kind words( your post was edited before I read it ) abou t me .But I am sure you have something ineresting and valuable for us .

YOu can share your knowledge about the topic and let all of us know what you think beside your whole hearted support of Sarcastic remarks written by other posters

Thanks

Jatinder Singh

Dear Jatinder ji,

I was not sharing rocket science but it seemed to have gone beyond the understanding of Aad ji that as usual and as expected she takes a keen interest in cut-cut-cut . I was merely admiring you for being the only one with the ability to understand (perhaps due to your medical experience) Balbir Singh. Aad ji was also his devotee for a considerable time but has fallen behind (perhaps become wiser) whereas you are still standing your ground but are being ignored by him and pleading for attention.

As far as knowledge is concerned it will make no difference even if the truth was staring at ones face, (nothing personal to you) so why disrespect Gurbani among those who have no respect in the first instant.

your quote" you have no substance to debate, no logic, no understanding of Gurbani add to it your answers as proved, are contradictory, ambigous and judgmental. In debate, such statements are called meritless efforts to debate. I now repent why did I waste my time on an entertainment of a confused mind."

This quote by PK70 is an excellent analysis of Balbir Singh. Some names come to mind that I would like to add to it but that will not serve any purpose.

I will keep a copy of this on the computer in case Aad ji has another uncontrolable urge to exercise cut cut cut. I will pm the contents for you.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


Please feel free to delete it after reading it.

 

[spnadmin]

Dear Jatinder ji,

I was not sharing rocket science but it seemed to have gone beyond the understanding of Aad ji that as usual and as expected she takes a keen interest in cut-cut-cut . I was merely admiring you for being the only one with the ability to understand (perhaps due to your medical experience) Balbir Singh. Aad ji was also his devotee for a considerable time but has fallen behind (perhaps become wiser) whereas you are still standing your ground but are being ignored by him and pleading for attention.

As far as knowledge is concerned it will make no difference even if the truth was staring at ones face, (nothing personal to you) so why disrespect Gurbani among those who have no respect in the first instant.

This quote by PK70 is an excellent analysis of Balbir Singh. Some names come to mind that I would like to add to it but that will not serve any purpose.

I will keep a copy of this on the computer in case Aad ji has another uncontrolable urge to exercise cut cut cut. I will pm the contents for you.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


Please feel free to delete it after reading it.

This post of yours I will not alter. Let others see for themselves and decide for themselves. You are warned. The goading of members and moderators must stop. Learning can move forward in tolerance even for the views of even those who are ridiculous; or learning can wither in an atmosphere of sarcasm and ridicule.

1. Respect: Treat all members with the kind of respect that you expect from them in return for yourself.

2. Unity in Diversity: Many members on SPN, come from various religious and cultural backgrounds and may have variable conflicting opinions. Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know. Un-necessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguements only take us away from the topic in hand. Please avoid them at any cost.

4. Introspection: Try to find your own fault and purify your mind.

5. Karma: Always check your karma and its fruit from participating in this network.

7. Moderation: SPN Management reserves all the rights to delete or modify all the

10. Personal Attacks or Sect Bashing: Do not engage in personal attacks or sect bashing. HATE MESSAGES WILL BE REMOVED WITHOUT NOTICE.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Namjap Jee!

Quote "Are you asking that it is not possible for Raam Chand (one of the Avtaars) to have no form ?"
No. Raam Chand also merges in the formless God. Anyone may merge into God with true Hari Naam Sabad.
Please first try to get the correct translation.

Quote "What do you understand by Gur Ishar Gur Gorakh Brahma, Gur Parbati Mai ?"
This is another great Vaak from Gurdev. Please start a new topic to enjoy it.

Quote " If you are already experience that 'chatnee' then why bother to come down the rung and create duplicate chatnee in the realm of the written word and spoken speech ?"
I do not know why God is engaged in such activities through us right now.


Balbir Singh

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear ekmusafir_ajnabi


YOu have rasied some points that are concerned with me and I fully agree with all of them without any hesitation at ll what so ever .
Infact I welcome such comments toward me ( plz spare other who dont want such comments)


I dont wish to speak for others but I dont have any doubt about it that I dont have any disrespect for gurbani although I dont understand much of gurbani in my present understanding but I am making little progress everyday

In the process if I have to fall at feet of other like you than I thinkit is my destiny written by one himself.

so take care and share your view point in good spirit and always remeber what anybody thinks and write on forum is not REALITY but a viewpoint of it so take things in their relative prospective and it can make things easier

Thanks for you post

Jatinder Singh

 

[Astroboy]

ਜਿਸਹਿ ਜਗਾਇ ਪੀਆਵੈ ਇਹੁ ਰਸੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੨॥
जिसहि जगाइ पीआवै इहु रसु अकथ कथा तिनि जानी ॥२॥
Jisahi jagā­ė pī­āvai ih ras akath kathā ṯin jānī. ||2||
Only those who are awakened by the Lord to drink in this Sublime Essence, come to know the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||2||
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


Gurdev is singing in Raag Guaree - and I understand this that we have to be awakened by the Lord first before he makes us drinketh of the sublime essence. And only after we drink/partake this SE that we can come to know of this Unspoken Speech.

Three steps to it, Balbir Singh Ji.
No.1 - to be awakened
No.2 - Drink the SE
No.3 - Know the US

Kindly explain (without opening a new thread) how one should go about having No.1 first.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Namjap Jee!

Thanks for the truthful, simple and straight Vaak from Gurdev.

In my experience the order list is as follows.

No.1 - Whom He awakes.
No.2 - He makes one to drink this Ras.
No.3 - One comes to know the Kathaa that he cannot tell.

Till then this Sansaar is in Bikaar and sansai and finds a ground to sleep further.

One comes to know the taste of Naam Ras and wonders. God wakes him up and he realizes the true Kathaa.

Total awakening is Brahm Gyaan, the wisdom of totality.


Balbir Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Nam Jap, in my view --

These points you make are, in my humble opinion, the keys, essential for eventually understanding, why we are here in this thread and on this earth. These questions are the keys that open the gates to the fortress so that we can start on the path with renewed understanding.

ਜਿਸਹਿ ਜਗਾਇ ਪੀਆਵੈ ਇਹੁ ਰਸੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੨॥
जिसहि जगाइ पीआवै इहु रसु अकथ कथा तिनि जानी ॥२॥
Jisahi jagā*ė pī*āvai ih ras akath kathā ṯin jānī. ||2||
Only those who are awakened by the Lord to drink in this Sublime Essence, come to know the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||2||
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


Gurdev is singing in Raag Guaree - and I understand this that we have to be awakened by the Lord first before he makes us drinketh of the sublime essence. And only after we drink/partake this SE that we can come to know of this Unspoken Speech.

Three steps to it, Balbir Singh Ji.
No.1 - to be awakened
No.2 - Drink the SE
No.3 - Know the US

Kindly explain (without opening a new thread) how one should go about having No.1 first.

 

[spnadmin]

Balbir ji and other jios,

I have gone back once again to examine the ideas that started this threa d,

First Balbir, you said

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Lately I had a chance to listen, Prof. Harpal Singh Pannu's lecture on Dasam Granth delivered at a seminar held in Sacramento in California. He referred Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Vaak from Dasam Granth.

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥
Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon||
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu


Today I came across the Vaak from Bhagat Kabeer Jee and its translation.
ਵਵਾ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ॥
ववा बार बार बिसन सम्हारि ॥
vavā bār bār bisan samĥār.
WAWA: Time and time again, dwell upon the Lord.


ਬਿਸਨ ਸੰਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਹਾਰਿ ॥
बिसन सम्हारि न आवै हारि ॥
Bisan sammhār na āvai hār. SGGS Ang 342-10
Dwelling upon the Lord, defeat shall not come to you.

May I ask if Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'? Please express your views. I will be thankful.


Balbir Singh

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Then I responded

My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways.

Your question, again, is very interesting.
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Then Balbir ji, you responded

Quote "My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways."
In my observation, Guru Gobind Singh Jee did not use the number three nor Guru Arjan Dev Jee limited Lord within the number one in His Vaak.

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Then Nam Jap added this

Here are two quotes about Vishnu (Bishan) by Nanak V and Kabeer:-

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ मोहिआ ॥
Barahmā bisan mahāḏė*o mohi*ā.
She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਮਾਲਾ ਮੇਲੀਂ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
कबीर बैसनो हूआ त किआ भइआ माला मेलीं चारि ॥
Kabīr baisno hū*ā ṯa ki*ā bẖa*i*ā mālā mėlīʼn cẖār.
Kabeer, what good is it to become a devotee of Vishnu, and wear four malas?
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
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Following this pk70 added

Please do not deviate from your statement. You wrote " . . . Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
I could not find one instance where Gurdev has called Bisan the creator. Please let all know which Baabaa has convinced people that Bisan is the creator, or it is your mind.


Bisan is Bisan. Bisan is not the creator who created Bisan. The same is with Raam, Brahma or Mahesh.

You wrote "Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar." And quoted
bRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] ds AvqwrI rwmu rwjw AwieAw ]
barahmaa bisan mahays dayv upaa-i-aa. barahmay ditay bayd poojaa laa-i-aa. das avtaaree raam raajaa aa-i-aa. 1279-18
Also, the above Vaak clearly states that Brahma, Bisan and Mahesh are created.

Guru Angad Dev Jee is also not explaining here that Brahma, Bisan, Mahesh or Das Avtaaree Raam is a Hindu.

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Subsequently Archived Member 1

added this clarification in response to my understanding that Guru Gobind Singh was talking about aspects or attributes within the One God.

you are exactly right. balbir "forgot" to post the complete line. posting half of a line of gurbani can be extremely misleading.


ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (Waheguru).434.

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Susequently I quoted

ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥
kott bisan keenae avathaar ||
He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu.

Kishan is a reference to Krishna, and again this is not a simple matter.

ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥
kisan sadhaa avathaaree roodhhaa kith lag tharai sansaaraa ||
Kisan is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world?
Guru Amar Das, Ang 559

as well as

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
Guru Nanaak, Ang 908.
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pk70 then wrote


Quote "As explained above, same 'RAM' word is used for Ram Chandar and the Creator as well. Words are the same; however, context it different. Being a Sikh, I hope, you are very well aware of the truth that Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator."
I could not find one reference where Guru Saahibaan have called Raam, Muraar, Krishna, Sanwla the creator. Please provide one reference and oblige

Sir I already gave quote about this, let me give once again

.
ਦਸਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ॥(1279)
ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ॥37 Japji
In the first quote, it is about "Ram Chandar" specifically.
In the second one it is about the Creator who permeates in HIS nature.

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Since then Nam Jap in more recent posts has added additional clarifications from Gurbani.

Balbir ji or anyone,

Compare the early comments with the latest comments. How much progress have we made answering the thread starting questions? Have we reached closure on Bisan? Or can we conclude that there are very understandaable reasons why Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Kabeer ji use "Bisan" differently to speak to different issues. Yet their uses of Bisan are not in contradiction to Shabad Guru.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Quote "Compare the early comments with the latest comments. How much progress have we made answering the thread starting questions?"
Why have you missed my observation from this post?
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...n-guru-gobind-singh-jee-kabeer.html#post76211

This is the emphasized part of that post.
"Why translations are different? Bisan is the same though."

Some participants tried their best to prove that Bisan of Kabeer Jee is the creator Himself while Bisan of Guru Gobind Singh Jee is the Hindu God.

Gurbaanee says. God created Bisan. All Activities belong to God.
Ignorant categorize those under worldly religions.

Quote "Have we reached closure on Bisan? Or can we conclude that there are very understandaable reasons why Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Kabeer ji use "Bisan" differently to speak to different issues. Yet their uses of Bisan are not in contradiction to Shabad Guru."
The true Gurus suggest receiving the Sabad Guru. One does not need to borrow experiences anymore.

One other way is to discuss and go on referring. Who said what, where, and when?


Balbir Singh