Is Dasam Granth Guru Ji's Bani?

[Sikh80]

It is a very old thread. Last post ---2006. How come these kinds of post appear on the main panel. New soft ware!Oh! may be yes.

Where are the smilies.??

 

[Astroboy]

This only shows how addicted we all are to SPN.

God teach me patience, but please hurry!!!

 

[Sikh80]

I respect that you re-initiated this thread.
Thanks anyways. BTW there are other ongoing threads on the topic ,friend. It is not addiction ,it is preference not by default by by design.


God never hurries. HE always like all those who are patient.
What is the hurry??
Regards.

 

[Astroboy]

Not me, someone else who did should appear on the scene.

 

[Sikh80]

Does it matter ?????

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

the thing to remember is...."name dropping".
Bhai Sahib Bhai Mani Singh Ji is just too great...any one knows that if this August Name is "attached" to naything..letter/book/poem/hukmnama/etc etc All Sikhs will attach utmost respect just because of the attached name of Bhai mani Singh Ji. Simialrly such "name dropping" also occurs in Founders of Organisations...like..OUR Taksaal is founded by Baba DEEP SINGH JI..Ours is founded by Bhai Mani Singh Ji...etc etc...ours is by Piara Dya Singh Ji...so on and so on...
The task is to sift the wheat from the chaff..find out verify the truth of the "name dropping"..is the book/letter etc really and truly by so and so...whats the irrefutable proof ? Simply attaching a name doesnt prove anything...

Gyani Jarnail Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

old posts ?? TRUTH never gets old !! maybe thats SPN admins way of refreshing our desktops/screens....looks good to me..and YES i agree with NamJapp that SPN is addictive..highly so.
Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Amrik Singh]

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji ke Fateh !
Thinkh about it: The khalsa, the true Singh 's are ksatria who deffend the Sikh Dharam against invaders and oppressors. The original sikh army survived british occupation only in Nander with Azoory Sikhs Khalsa and Buda Dahl Akali Nihangs .Both reconise Dassam Granth beside Adi Granth as Guru (and also Sarab Loh Granth). In Punjab survived only the taxales originals samparas who's role is to form granthis and preachers but in the absense of the Akali nihangs who were adminitring Amrit the task was take over mainly by marginals groups cooperating with the britishs .Even so the british neededed good soldiers keeping the sikh military qualities :in front of the sikhs regiments of the british army both Adi Granth and Dassam were carried with equal respect.The British did'nt want any sikh military tradition ouside the british army so developped what is call
"englese sikhi" :amridary sikh who do not carry weapons carry only a mini ,blunt kirpan have no fighting knowledge and disregard the Dassam Granth.
Without the Dassam Granth there is no sikh military tradition
there is no ardas
no Nit Nem
no Amrit Sanchar
no Sikh separate from hindoos
So what is left? : Hindus coming for Darshan and lissening to Gurbany.
That is exactly what RSS and other ennemys of the Sikhs want.
Peopel who pretend to deffend Sikhi and reject the Dassam Granth are imposters or the most foolishs among foolishs.
I am sorry if I offended any one .

 

[KAUR13]

yes that was a very nice description i have heard so far in favour of dasam granth
buh a question arises wen guru sahib gave guruship to guru granth sahib ji and sed (giani gian singh z words) aageya bhaee akal ki tabey chalayo panth.. sabh sikhan ko hukam hai guru maneyo granth
guru sahib didnot mention dasam granth at that time ... so i guess calling dasam granth GURU and presenting it on the same level, doing parkash of it rite next to guru granth sahib ji ... i think its totally wrong... im no one to judge who wrote what .. buh still dasam granth should not be given the title of GURU and should not be parkash at the same time as guru granth sahib ji is because NO ONE is higher than guru granth sahib ji

and another thought before we even go on discussing dasam granth.... i see no point because we stil haven't found everything from guru granth sahib ji so why move on something that is not even our omnipresent guru?

 

[pk70]

guru sahib didnot mention dasam granth at that time ... so i guess calling dasam granth GURU and presenting it on the same level, doing parkash of it rite next to guru granth sahib ji ... i think its totally wrong... im no one to judge who wrote what .. buh still dasam granth should not be given the title of GURU and should not be parkash at the same time as guru granth sahib ji is because NO ONE is higher than guru granth sahib ji
and another thought before we even go on discussing dasam granth.... i see no point because we stil haven't found everything from guru granth sahib ji so why move on something that is not even our omnipresent guru?

Kaur 13 Ji

Your views are excellent, they bear ultimate truth Sikhs should carry all along. Guru says" Guru Granth is your Guru" some of his followers say" No Guru ji, whatever either compiled or added in your names is also our Guru, Panj pyare are our Guru, because you live in Khalsa, so Khalsa is our Guru, so dear Guru ji you are wrong we are right" I call it active violation of Guru Hukam to allow Dasam Granth published as Guru Dasam Granth and give equal status of Guru as per Guru Gobind Singh's own wishes. Some claim they read it and found it is written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji" Some disagree. Controversy goes on. The truth is still so big that over centuries to come, Sikhs Guru will be only Guru Granth Sahib Ji no matter how big this show people make. Authorship of Dasm Granth must be resolved by together by setting up a Sikh Punchait by keeping every thing available in this context.

 

[Amrik Singh]

Gurfateh! in the understanding of azuri sikhs , akali nihangs ,taksales originals samparas (and my humble self)Sry Guru Granth Sahib is Adi Darbar Ji, Dassam Darbar Ji ,Sarabloh Darbar Ji.
Adi Guru Darbar is the foremost Granth others are second and third .An acceptable opinion (but not mine) is that the Dassam Granth is to be keep and respected as a Gutka Sahib but not instal besside Adi Guru Granth Sahib .If Mata Sundri,Bhay Mani Singh, and the Guru Khalsa Panth at the time had faith in the Dasvan Patsha Granth it is good enough for me.

 

[spnadmin]

Jios,

Have been staying out of this discussion on purpose. But take a look at the title of the thread. It is confusing isn't it? The task of untangling what is GurBani and what is not GurBani is not made easier by the topic title.

How could Dasam Granth be Guruji's Bani if Guruji is Sri Guru Granth Sahib? They are too completely different books -- logically it is impossible.

Now I am not missing the point of the discussion either. Because then another question comes up. Is Dasam Granth the Bani of the Guru? This is a different question and leads a person in a different direction completely. This question has more possibilities in terms of debate.

Now I am going to be quiet again. Let you guys figure it out.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

How could Dasam Granth be Guruji's Bani if Guruji is Sri Guru Granth Sahib? They are too completely different books -- logically it is impossible.

Bani (Punjabi ਬਾਣੀ), short for Gurbani (Punjabi ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ)

It means from the mouth of the Guru. Aad0002ji, the banis a Sikh (and by Rehitnama an Amritdhari must read) recites as daily paath includes banis from Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. To take too simplistic an approach to defining Sikh religion SOLELY on Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is mistaken. There is no debate or confusion that Guru is Guru, and Dhan Dhan Shri Shabad Guru Ji Maharaaj is unquestionably Guru of the Sikhs, Dasam Pita Ji Himself ordained this. Otherwise you are asserting that the Panj banis which a Sikh prays are taken from a fake and invalid book, and although refered to as Guru's bani, are alleging they are not from the mouth of Guru. It's not like Christian religion which has a doctrine of Sola Scriptora, meaning "solely by the (accepted) scriptures. But Sikhism includes a lot of history and tradition as a framework for many things which are not expressly found in Shri Guru Granth (or are veiled or hidden (gupt) teachings as insightfully explained by supportive vaaran such as written interpretation of Bhai Gurdas Ji who himself had darshan of 4 living forms of Guru and whose own pen handcopied the Aadi Granth). Without Dasam Granth we would not even have Dasam Pita Ji's Zafernama against Emperor Aurangzeb. For the simplist example...


How do we know that Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Guru?


We know this by tradition. We know this by rehitnamay. We know this by the same exact tradition which teaches that the formation of the Khalsa Panth as Guru also ordained the Aadi Granth to be Guru Granth.

But you will not be able to quote this in a tuuk from Guru Granth Sahib. Because Tenth Master did not write His bani in the Aadi Granth. Does that mean everything else Tenth Master taught and said which were preserved in Rehitnamay and tradition are completely invalid and to be removed from acceptance in Sikhism? Could there ever be a single word which Tenth Master, Sacha Patshah uttered which would be spurious, invalid or unimportant just because it was elected BY HIM not to be recorded as part of Aadi Granth?

Not only is there Dasam Granth Gurbani, but possibly also Sarbloh Granth, while it has also been criticized like Dasam Granth, the Panth has not officially defined it's position, and the Nihang Jatha has kept most of it hidden (gupt) from the Panth, although the previous Jathedar Nihang Baba Santa Singh Ji released publication of portions of it recently. The reason I mention Sarbloh Granth in conjunction with Dasam Granth is because many debates on forums center around the validity of the Khalsa, the validity of the Takhts and central authority of Akal Takht. Debates constantly revolve around themes like, "where does it say in Guru Granth Sahib that a Sikh has to keep uncut hair? Keep and honor shastars? Wear Panj Kakkars? Receive amrit from Khande Ki Pahul? Pray the Nitenam banis?

And the answers to all those questions are found in 1. Dasam Granth, 2. Sarbloh Granth, 3. various Purataan Rehitnamay

The Dasam Granth (Punjabi: ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ), historically known as Dasven Padshah Ka Granth (Punjabi: ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ) (Book of the Tenth Emperor), is a scripture of Sikhism, containing texts composed by the 10th Sikh Guru, Guru Gobind Singh. The compositions of the Granth set out the ideas, thoughts and guidlines for the future of the Nanak panth as enshrined in the Khalsa. The Jaap Sahib, Tvye Prasad Sawaiye (Amrit Savaiye) and Benti Chaupai, all compositions from the Dasam Granth, are part of the daily prayers Nitnem of the Sikhs, which serve, as well, as a part of the Sikh initiation Khande di Pahul...

The Dasam Granth is all rhymed poetry. It was designed to be heard, so there is considerable repition, and a variety of meteres to hold the attention. The language of most of the Dasam Granth is largely Braj veering towards Sanskrit at one extreme and simple colloquial Hindi at the other. The Braj dialect is a variety of medieval Hindi with a mixture of Sanskrit, Persiona, and Arabic words. The Zafarnama and the Hikayats are in Persian using Gurmukhi characters and several passages in other works are in Punjabi. The 'author/s' not only used this melange of languages but also coined words half Arabic half Sanskrit (and sometimes words without any meaning just to create a musical effect). Some of this kind of writing has great power and beauty.

Most of the poetry of the Dasam Granth is hardly intelligible to the modern Punjabi reader without the aid of a commentary. Experts tell us that the Guru's poetry is of the highest order:
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Dasam_Granth

An expert on Braj and on Dasam Granth was Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, a Sikh who was recognized and honored by all Takhts.

In his various books on Sikh theology he quotes very appropriate verses from the Gurbani freely and with apparent ease. He had a deep insight and scholarly expertise in Punjabi, Brij Bhasha of Sri Dasam Granth, Persian, Urdu and English. He even distinguished himself as an Urdu and Punjabi poet during his college days.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhai_Randhir_Singh

Are there spurious banis and rehitnama? Yes! But not all of it is. And that is why it is a matter of legitimate debate and discussion. BUT, before discrediting or declaring inauthentic based on personal opinion, I urge the forum participants to treat as potentially Gurbani ANY bani, while discussing possibilities, disagreements, etc in an atmosphere of RESPECT for the bani. You can disagree with and not invalidate, discredit or bring reputation into ruin as in a formal attack. And THIS is what Akal Takht Sahib Ji has objected to in their edict against discussions involving Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. At this point, nothing formal has been declared about Sarbloh Granth. But historically, Sikhism rests on the interpretation of Guru Granth Sahib on the Purataan rehitnamay and bani of Tenth Master. I believe this is an area which should be treaded with RESPECT, CARE, and minimization of personal, frivolous or insulting opinions intended to defame or cast aspersions against what may likely be Guru's bani. Who among us here is a historian and scholar who is an expert in the languages in which Dasam Granth is written who can offer a challenge against the insights of such a scholar?

If it is NOT Gurbani, the Panth will declare this. As to this date, there has been no such declaration, and in fact an edict against defamation of Dasam Granth, and the formation of educational seminars to instruct the Sikh Sangat as to the accepted VALIDITY of Dasam Granth as bani. So it seems the direction is clearly one of Panthic acceptance. This renders as "spurious" those opinions which are contrary to the accepted Panthic authority. And as such, I urge a tone of respect when discussing the validity or invalidity of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, and restraint at this time in attempts to discredit Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji.


There is a movement to do just this, and discredit the entire basis of the formation of the Khalsa Panth at Baisaikhi. And this was why the Akal Takht are strongly enforcing an edict NOT to defame, slander, or diminish importance of Dasam Granth as bani, while stipulating as bani it is to be respected and treasured, but Guru Granth is still indisputed Guru.

Adi Granth: literally means "the first book." This is the early compilation of the Sikh Scriptures by Guru Arjan, the fifth Sikh Guru, in 1604. This Granth (Book) is the Holy Scripture of the Sikhs. The tenth Sikh Guru, Guru Gobind Singh added further holy Shabads to this Granth during the period 1704 to 1706. Then in 1708, before taking leave for his heavenly abode, Guru Gobind Singh affirmed the Adi Granth as the perpetual Guru of the Sikhs and the Granth then became known as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Important Milestones

• 30 August 1604: Completion of Adi Granth

• 1 September 1604: Adi Granth installed for the first time at Harimander Sahib by Guru Arjan Dev ji

• 1705: The Damdama Sahib Bir was completed by Guru Gobind Singh from memory.

• 20 October 1708: Installation of the Guru Granth Sahib as eternal Guru

Please see Sri Guru Granth Sahib for full details
The original copy of the scripture, called Adi Granth, compiled and authenticated by Guru Arjan Dev still exists today and is kept at Kartarpur which is a town about 15 km. north west of the city of Jalandhar, Panjab, India. This is the only Holy Scripture in the world which was written by the founders of the religion during their lifetime. All other holy scriptures were completed after their founders had left for their heavenly abodes. Further, this is the only holy scripture that can be considered a "universal Granth" because it contains the hymns of both Hindu and Muslim saints....



The "Bani", Gurus inspired utterance, had always been the object of highest reverence for the Sikhs as well as for the Gurus themselves. It was equated with the Guru himself. "The bani is the Guru and the Guru bani" sang Guru Ram Das in measure Nat Narain. By accumulating the canon, Guru Arjun wished to affix the seal on the sacred word. It was also to be the perennial fountain of inspiration and the means of self-perpetuation for the community.

Guru Arjun called Bhai Gurdas to his presence and expressed to him the wish that the compositions of the Gurus as well as those of some of the saints and sufis be collected. Massages were sent to the disciples to gather and transmit to him the hymns of his predecessors. Baba Mohan, son of Guru Amar Das, Nanak III, had two manuscript collections of the Gurus' hymns inherited from his father.

Bhai Gurdas travelled to Goindwal to bring these pothis but the owner refused to see him. Bhai Buddha, one of the oldest Sikhs from Guru Nanak's days, was similarly turned away from his door. Then Guru Arjun went himself. He sat ha the street below Mohan's attic serenading him on his tambura. Mohan was disarmed to hear the hymn. He came downstairs with the pothis and presented these to the Guru. As says the Gurbilas, the pothis were placed on a palanquin bedecked with precious stones. The Sikhs carried it on their shoulders and Guru Arjun walked behind barefoot. He refused to ride his horse, saying that the pothis were the very spirit of the four Gurus — his predecessors.
Adi Granth - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

There have been a lot of scholarly debates over this issue for decades now, but the accepted consensus within the circles of Panthic authority has already unquestionably accepted every part of Dasam Granth as Gurbani. So while a discussion is now allowed (and was restricted while Panthic scholars investigated to prevent potential nindya of Gurbani or propaganda against Gurbani to Sikhs, that restriction has now been lifted with the caveat NOT to do nindya of Shri Dasam Granth Ji bani as an edict from Akal Takht Sahib ji. The restriction is lifted to allow education of the Sikh sangat as to WHY Panthic Scholars have accepted Dasam Granth, not to allow defamation or delegitimization of Dasam Granth.)

So I would urge you as a sincere Sikh, before simply reading debates on this forum for education on the subject, to investigate what is the Akal Takht position on this subject, and WHY...

Now there are those who do not recognize validity of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji or Akal Takht Sahib Ji which is a different matter than someone who has doubts or interest in question and learning. The focus for these people is to delegitimize and undermine Dasam Granth, and the entire framework of the Khalsa Panth and the Takhts of traditional Sikh authority. Consider it like the Protestant reformation that sought to replace centuries old Patristic writings and historical Councils with the new idea of "individual interpretation." While not exactly analogous, there are similarities. These people want to delegitimize traditional Sikh authority with their own, and thus make their own opinions speak for the "mouth of Guru." Since any invalidation of the primary authority of: 1. Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 2. Guru Panj Piara, 3. Akal Takht Sahib Ji literally attacks the very basis and foundation of Sikh religion.

Sikhism has a framework of Nationhood, which includes Panthic Authority. Are all the definitions put forth by Panthic Authority to be accepted by every individual? No, we all have different understandings and freedom of choice. HOWEVER, all decisions and definitions of Panthic Authority are to be RESPECTED, and there is a fine line where debate ends, and heresy begins.

First Dasam Granth Seminar Held in North America:
http://www.panthic.org/news/123/ARTICLE/3927/2008-02-28.html


~Bhul chak maaf

 

[spnadmin]

Bhenji Harjas

I know what it means. I was deliberately taking a simplistic approach so that lines of argument would be less tangled together than they have been. At least two and maybe more directions are possible. So thank you for taking up the thread and laying it out in a clear fashion.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

How could Dasam Granth be Guruji's Bani if Guruji is Sri Guru Granth Sahib? They are too completely different books -- logically it is impossible.

But your statement is not neutral, it is plainly discrediting the validity of Dasam Granth being bani of the Tenth Master on the basis of it not being incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib.

So I was trying to point out that bani is still Gurbani, and it doesn't have to have the same throne as Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Simply because Nanak Tenth did not include the bani as Guru doesn't invalidate His composition as NOT being Gurbani. And I included many points to illustrate this.


How do you know that Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Guru? The same way you know that the Khalsa Panth and Panj Piare are Guru. The same way you know that the banis used for nitnam are valid (and 3 of which come from Dasam Granth)...

and that is not because they were written in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but in tradition, Dasam Granth, Sarbloh Granth, purataan rehitnamay. If you know that bani means from the mouth of Guru, and Akal Takht has accepted Dasam Granth bani as being Gurbani, why would the fact that it is a separate composition from the installed Shri Guru Granth Sahib make it no longer Gurbani? It doesn't seem a logical invalidation. Unless you are inferring that ONLY Shri Guru Granth Sahib speaks for the sum total of historical Sikh religion, in which case we no longer have a basis for uncut hair, amrit sinchaar, panj kakkars, nitenam banis, etc.

Which is illogical? The one that adds and explains the entire tradition or the one that takes away any platform of continuity and understanding?

 

[spnadmin]

Oh Gee! I have been trying to stay out an argument over so many things on the forum. The statement you quoted is addressing the sentential logic of the thread title. That is all. I have no quarrel whatsoever with the Dasam Granth -- how could I?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Oh Gee! I have been trying to stay out an argument over so many things on the forum.

Well that's no fun!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Well that's no fun!

obvioulsy..all the fun in fishing is when the fish bite....when they just swim away...???

Seriously i think all this huu haa is really unnecessary- especially when it is brought up during the ALL IMPORTANT 300th Anniversay of the GURUSHIP of SGGS.imho its to create unnecessary friction and waste the Sikh panths energy by vested anti sikh interests.

1. SGGS is the One and Only GURU.

2. SIKHS have had only ONE GURU at any one time... even when in a point of time in Sikh history multiple human bodies were alive and living..example Guru nanak ji was alive at the same time as Bhai lehna Ji, Bhai Amardass ji, Bhai Jetha Ji. Baby Arjun Ji used to sit on the lap of Guur Amardass Ji and was blessed as bani da Bohitha - Ship of Gurbani....and also at other points in time as Guur Harkishan Ji and Teg bahdur Ji and Gobind Rai were living at the same time...BUT ONLY ONE GURU at any one time.
ONLY the ILAHI GURBANI from a GURU is GURBANI. What we have in SGGS is GURBANI as it is STAMPED and CERTIFIED as GURBANI by the GURU HIMSELF. Period. No discussion. Some of the compositions in SGGS are NOT BY THE SIKH GURUS per se... bhagat Kabir is not a Sikh GURU....BUT his compositions are GURBANI for us because they are NOW incorporated in the SGGS..the Living GURU. So when we BOW to the SGGS as GURU..we BOW to Kabir jis writings..we bow to SHeikh farid Jis sloks...and when Bhagat Kabir jis sloks are read as a HUKMNAMA/VAAK...that is GURBANI from the GURUS MUKHVAAK. When Bhagat Ravidass Ji speaks to us via the SGGS..its our GURU SPEAKING.
Guru Hargobind Ji Sahib, Guur Har rai Ji Sahib..and Guru harkishan Ji Sahib...are also our GURUS..even though not a single tuk from them appears in the SGGS....we SIKHS will NEVER hear a MUKHVAAK from Guru Harkishan JI..it doesnt mean anything...we will also not hear a single word from the wriitngs of (if any) Bhai Amardass Ji when he wasnt GURU AMARDASS JI...Tomorrow soembody may make a sudden discovery of a long lost "pothi" containing poetry by Bhai Amardass Ji when he was a DEVI BHAGAT going to annual pilgrimages to the Devi..WILL that POETRY become "GURUBANI" ?? NO NEVER. Simply because it is NOT in SGGS as certified by Guur Arjun Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

3. The SGGS is the JYOT of ALL TEN GURUS....even though three of them didnt write a SINGLE WORD/and there are NO other "GRANTHS" known as Chevaan granth/Satvan Granth/Athvaan Granth etc for them. No SIKH has ever raised any doubts as to how the SGGS can be the JYOT of ALL ten Gurus IF the three dont have separate Granths as the Dasvan Granth. Its ridiculous to say such things but they are being said in defence of Dsvaan Granth. ( Its alleged that those who disregard Dsvaan Granth dont beleive in the TEN GURU JYOT as a Sikh MUST beleive in the SGGS being the JYOT of ALL TEN Guurs and.....if one disbeleives the dasvaan granth..it follows that we are not beleiving in the Ten Guurs as One Jyot..) So if i can SAFELY Disregard the Chevan granth/satvan granth and athvaan granth..i can also do the same for the dsavaan granth and still beleive the SGGS is the JYOT of ALL TEN GURUS. Period.

4. The NITNEM BANIS, the Khalsa PAHUL, the Panj kakars, the SRM are all part and parcel of SIKHISM. No one disputes that. The PAHUL Ceremony is a CEREMONY to ADMIT a Sikh into the KHALSA BROTHERHOOD. Nothing less nothing more. When Guru Gobind Singh ji bowed to the PUNJ at vasakhi 1699 He BOWED to the GURU KHALSA PANTH and its FOREVER. No power on earth can vanquish this KHALSA of the VAHIGURU. Period.The Nitnem Banis will cotinue to be used to admit abhilakhees into the Khalsa Brotherhood BUT these will be read in the AUGUST PRESENCE of the ONLY GURU- SGGS. Without the GURU present no such Pahul ceremony can take place..so the GURU SGGS Comes FIRST..and as long as we have SGGS as the GURU..the Khalsa Lives forever. Waheguru ji ka KHALSA Waheguru ji ki FATEH...is not an idle boast..its reality the anti-sikh forces of dark vader/pujareewaad/fake humanrights etc cant stomach...

5. anyone noticed..just for the fun of it..to muddy the already muddied waters..another grnath..the trilogy sarb loh granth is also beign subtley introduced into the battle field..just so that if the SIKHS manage to settle the dsavvan granth issue..then another Battle Royale can begin....the Anti-Sikh Forces cannot afford to let the sikhs sit in peace...

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

First the appealing to fear among the Sikh sangat that recognizing Dasam Granth as Gurbani somehow challenges or replaces Shri Guru Granth Sahib is false and defamatory. The fact that Gurbani from Dasam Granth has been used to form the basis of nitenam banis proves Sikhs accept nitenam banis to be Guru's bani, and since they are from Dasam Granth what does that tell us? That it is some accident or malign conspiracy to undermine Sikhism? Else, why would Sikhs be reciting from Dasam Granth as part of rehitnama of Khalsa? Because it is NOT Gurbani? That doesn't make any sense. Obviously, it is Gurbani. And equally obvious Dasam Granth, nor Sarbloh Granth nor Prem Sumarag, nor commentary Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas have been installed as Guru of the Sikhs. How does the existence of historical granths, vaaran and rehitnamay violate the sanctity or exclusiveness of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or constitute some anti-Panthic conspiracy against Sikhism? And if you remove the validity of these historical sources, and equally the unwritten traditions of the Khalsa Panth, the nitenam banis, etc, I ask you, on what basis can you support that Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is actually Guru Granth? Because you cannot eliminate the historical supportive sources which are the framework of the Khalsa Panth without also eliminating the internal logic and cohesiveness of Sikh Nationhood and religion.

A large objection is often made about Shri Dasam Granth bani because it contains Hindu stories. Yet no one is clicking the links to hear the scholars from the Dasam Granth seminar explain how the teachings are conformed to Sikh religion and the Hindu devtas are subordinated to Akal. Is this different from the clarification of Vedic teaching, yoga references or Hindu devtas in Gurbani of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? No! The same exact clarification and subordination is the same, as well as the same references to Hindu devtas and even to base kaami corruptions. It is a coherent message.

The real problem is most Sikhs gloss over the Hindu stories and references, teachings and clarifications in Gurbani of Guru Granth, yet they are clearly there, Hanuman, Mahesh, Narasimha, Raamchandra. So why is their mention in the martial tradition of the Khalsa of Shri Dasam Granth suddenly offensive?

Shri Guru Granth also mentions the 10 avataaras of Vishnu and has at least 2 references to Guruji as being an avataar. So why is Chaupis avatar in Dasam Granth bani challenged as being conspiratorial? Rather every Sikh should analyze the purpose of why the Gurbani is saying these banis and clarify that Shri Dasam Granth bani is essentially not saying anything new and without a simialr reference also found in Shri Guru Granth Sahib to support it. Nothing is contradictory whatsoever except the limitation of people's understanding of deeply mystical and profound teaching. The fact that Dasam Granth is bani doesn't replace that Gurgaddhi and primacy are given to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but clearly shows the intensity of the teaching between the two Granths exists and is not an invention of the Arya Samaj or RSS. What we all need to do is analyze the true historical and spiritual purpose behind lesser known references to Hindu devtas and stories of their corruption in time and warnings to the Khalsa that they too could fall, rather than dismissing Guruji's bani out of OUR ignorance of the historical validity.

Explain this please if all Bachitter Natak is considered too offensive to be bani of Guruji.

ਅਜੌਂ ਨ ਪਤ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਇ ਨਿਗਮ ਭਏ ਸਾਖੀ ॥੩॥
ajaan n pathyaae nigam bheae saakhee ||3||
I do not have faith, even though the Vedas bear witness to the Lord. ||3||

ਗੋਤਮ ਨਾਰਿ ਉਮਾਪਤਿ ਸ੍ਵਾਮੀ ॥ਸੀਸੁ ਧਰਨਿ ਸਹਸ ਭਗ ਗਾਂਮੀ ॥੪॥
gotham naar oumaapath svaamee || sees dhharan sehas bhag gaanmee ||4||
Shiva cut off Brahma's head, and Gautam's wife and the Lord Indra mated; Brahma's head got stuck to Shiva's hand, and Indra came to bear the marks of a thousand female organs. ||4||

ਇਨ ਦੂਤਨ ਖਲੁ ਬਧੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਰਿਓ ॥
ein dhoothan khal badhh kar maariou ||
These demons have fooled, bound and destroyed me.

ਬਡੋ ਨਿਲਾਜੁ ਅਜਹੂ ਨਹੀ ਹਾਰਿਓ ॥੫॥
baddo nilaaj ajehoo nehee haariou ||5||
I am very shameless - even now, I am not tired of them. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 710




ਸੰਕਰਾ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਬਸਤਾ ਸੁਰਸਰੀ ਇਸਨਾਨ ਰੇ ॥
sankaraa masathak basathaa surasaree eisanaan rae ||
The moon dwells in Shiva's forehead; it takes its cleansing bath in the Ganges.

ਕੁਲ ਜਨ ਮਧੇ ਮਿਲ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ​*ੋ ਸਾਰਗ ਪਾਨ ਰੇ ॥
kul jan madhhae miliyo saarag paan rae ||
Among the men of the moon's family, Krishna was born;

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਕਲੰਕੁ ਮਫੀਟਸਿ ਰੀ ॥੧॥
karam kar kalank mafeettas ree ||1||
even so, the stains from its past actions remain on the moon's face. ||1||

ਬਿਸ੍ਵ ਕਾ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਸ੍ਵਾਮੀ ਤਾ ਚੇ ਰੇ ਸੁਆਰਥੀ ਪੰਖੀ ਰਾਇ ਗਰੁੜ ਤਾ ਚੇ ਬਾਧਵਾ ॥
bisv kaa dheepak svaamee thaa chae rae suaarathhee pankhee raae garurr thaa chae baadhhavaa ||
Aruna was a charioteer; his master was the sun, the lamp of the world. His brother was Garuda, the king of birds;

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਅਰੁਣ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਰੀ ॥੨॥
karam kar arun pingulaa ree ||2||
and yet, Aruna was made a cripple, because of the karma of his past actions. ||2||

ਅਨਿਕ ਪਾਤਿਕ ਹਰਤਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਨਾਥੁ ਰੀ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਤਾ ਲਹੈ ਨ ਪਾਰੁ ਰੀ ॥
anik paathik harathaa thribhavan naathh ree theerathh theerathh bhramathaa lehai n paar ree ||
Shiva, the destroyer of countless sins, the Lord and Master of the three worlds, wandered from sacred shrine to sacred shrine; he never found an end to them.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਕਪਾਲੁ ਮਫੀਟਸਿ ਰੀ ॥੩॥
karam kar kapaal mafeettas ree ||3||
And yet, he could not erase the karma of cutting off Brahma's head. ||3||

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਸੀਅ ਧੇਨ ਲਛਿਮੀ ਕਲਪਤਰ ਸਿਖਰਿ ਸੁਨਾਗਰ ਨਦੀ ਚੇ ਨਾਥੰ ॥
anmrith saseea dhhaen lashhimee kalapathar sikhar sunaagar nadhee chae naathhan ||
Through the nectar, the moon, the wish-fulfilling cow, Lakshmi, the miraculous tree of life, Sikhar the sun's horse, and Dhanavantar the wise physician - all arose from the ocean, the lord of rivers;

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਖਾਰੁ ਮਫੀਟਸਿ ਰੀ ॥੪॥
karam kar khaar mafeettas ree ||4||
and yet, because of its karma, its saltiness has not left it. ||4||

ਦਾਧੀਲੇ ਲੰਕਾ ਗੜੁ ਉਪਾੜੀਲੇ ਰਾਵਣ ਬਣੁ ਸਲਿ ਬਿਸਲਿ ਆਣਿ ਤੋਖੀਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥
dhaadhheelae lankaa garr oupaarreelae raavan ban sal bisal aan thokheelae haree ||
Hanuman burnt the fortress of Sri Lanka, uprooted the garden of Raawan, and brought healing herbs for the wounds of Lachhman, pleasing Lord Raamaa;

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਿ ਕਛਉਟੀ ਮਫੀਟਸਿ ਰੀ ॥੫॥
karam kar kashhouttee mafeettas ree ||5||
and yet, because of his karma, he could not be rid of his loin cloth. ||5||

ਪੂਰਬਲੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਮਿਟੈ ਰੀ ਘਰ ਗੇਹਣਿ ਤਾ ਚੇ ਮੋਹਿ ਜਾਪੀਅਲੇ ਰਾਮ ਚੇ ਨਾਮੰ ॥
poorabalo kirath karam n mittai ree ghar gaehan thaa chae mohi jaapeealae raam chae naaman ||
The karma of past actions cannot be erased, O wife of my house; this is why I chant the Name of the Lord.

ਬਦਤਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ॥੬॥੧॥
badhath thrilochan raam jee ||6||1||
So prays Trilochan, Dear Lord. ||6||1||


ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸੈਣੁ ॥
sree sain ||
Sri Sain:

ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ ਘ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਾਜਿ ਆਰਤੀ ॥
dhhoop dheep ghrith saaj aarathee ||
With incense, lamps and ghee, I offer this lamp-lit worship service.

ਵਾਰਨੇ ਜਾਉ ਕਮਲਾ ਪਤੀ ॥੧॥
vaaranae jaao kamalaa pathee ||1||
I am a sacrifice to the Lord of Lakshmi. ||1||

ਮੰਗਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਗਲਾ ॥ਨਿਤ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਇ ਕੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
mangalaa har mangalaa || nith mangal raajaa raam raae ko ||1|| rehaao ||
Hail to You, Lord, hail to You! Again and again, hail to You, Lord King, Ruler of all! ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 695


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ਗਾਵਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਈਸਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥
gaavanih thudhhano eesar brehamaa dhaevee sohan thaerae sadhaa savaarae ||
Shiva and Brahma and the Goddess Parvaati, so beautiful and ever adorned by You, sing to You.
~SGGS Ji p. 347

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Here is another view:

Tuesday, May 27, 2008

Darshan Singh's Anti-Dasam Granth Phobia

Darshan Singh's Anti-Dasam Granth Phobia
Controversial Ragi, Darshan Singh who has recently been declared 'Pakka Tankhayia' (habitual offender) for his anti Panthic activities and for defying the Hukamnamas of Sri Akal Takht Sahib is busy touring and playing with the emotions of the sangat by instilling a fake fear of the 'Dasam Bani' among them.

The Rehat, Amrit, Nitnem and Ardas of the Khalsa have its origin in both Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. However Ragi is propagating an imaginary conflict between the banis of these two pious Granths and is busy cashing this imaginary conflict with his notion of restoring honor for Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

"Recently while leaving a Gurdwara in Vancouver Ragi was physically confronted by Singhs after he refused to answer their queries..."



When the whole Sikh nation has focused its attention on Takht Sri Hazur Sahib for the 300 year celebrations of the Gurgaddi Diwas of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Ragi Darshan Singh is stooping low by advising Sikhs not to go to Takht Sahib and participate in those celebrations. Ragi has also used this occasion for using derogatory and offensive language for the 'Dasam Bani'.

From his latest discourses on the 'Dasam Banis' it is quite obvious that the Ragi, has a microscopic knowledge about it. At one instance he even made a mockery of himself by asserting that there are more than 15 beerhs of Sri Dasam Granth that are assigned to Bhai Mani Singh Ji. He crossed all limits of sanity when he took out a paid advertisement in a newspaper owned by an excommunucated Sikh where he proposed setting up of a panel to discuss the authenticity of 'Jaap Sahib', 'Benti Chaupai' and other Nitnem banis.

These were some reasons that Akal Takht Sahib had issued a Hukamnama on January 8, 2007 asking Sangat to beware of Ragi for his lies and deceit.

"...he has found a fan base among members of the 'Kala Afghana' cult...they have found a new messiah in the form of the Ragi who can carry on with their anti Panthic agenda."

Gur-Ta-Gaddi Nanded Tercentenary Celebration: Darshan Singh's Anti-Dasam Granth Phobia

Sikhs who respect Dasam Granth as a holy book say that while Guru Granth Sahib is the spiritual capital of Sikhs that will guide them through times of doubt and disturbance, Dasam Granth, however, is a repository of religious, political, cultural and literary desires of the Sikhs. It is a testament of Guru Gobind Singh’s trials and tribulations. It conceptualizes Dharm Yudh by citing from the prevailing beliefs. The concept of divine and demon has been elaborated. Divine comes to the rescue of those who fight against the rising authority of demons. But in the process, victorious gods behave in the same way as demons they were fighting against. . Therefore, Vedas established egoism and racial superiority giving birth to the curse again.

All verses prepare one to fight and uphold moral values. Discourses of god and demons have not been narrated in a flat manner. They have a great symbolic significance that has been invested with multi-meanings. They show whenever there is a battle for Dharma, the heroes become oppressor after savoring victory. God sends another Avatar to settle score with god turned demon.

The scholars who doubt the authenticity of Dasam Granth believe that it promotes superstitions, faith in gods and goddesses, casteism and eroticism. They project ‘Chauvis Avatar’ and ‘Ath Pakhyaan Charitar Likhyatav’ as highly offensive poetry to the pious believers. The extramarital affairs of queens, sexual alliances of princesses, and insatiable desire of beautiful women for high-ranking men have been given graphic details. The ravenous hunger for sex outside traditional relationships inspires these women to weave tales of deception on husbands, fathers and brothers. All these women are highly influential, self-assured and daring and deceiving. Some scholars do no believe their Guru can stoop so low as to appeal to their lower depths.

On the other hand, believers of Dasam Granth declare that the controversy is not only unnecessary and meaningless, but also fabricated to create confusion in Sikhs. They cite the evidence that there is no campaign to replace Guru Granth Sahib with Dasam Granth. Then, why is there such a panic? When heroes are prone to repeat demonic behavior, how Khalsa can remain infallible? Is it not the duty of the Guru to show his Khalsa all the pitfalls that can swallow them? ‘Ath Pakhyaan Charitar Likhyatav’ according to believers, is to forewarn Khalsa where they might otherwise end up after tasting victory. They say the debate should focus more on the world-view of Dasam Granth rather than on the question of accepting and rejecting it.
WSN-Opinion-The Rising Tide: Authority of the Akal Takht-3

~bhul chak maaf

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

actually most of this is "Pro'DG Phobia"..and not antiDG"phobia"...simply becasue 99.99% of Sikh Gurdwaras DONT HAVE a single copy of DG and 99.99% of Sikhs havent read a copy.
So the PRODGS are havign the Phobia that DG is not being respected as much as it should be..like being paraksh at par with SGGS as at hazoor sahib/Patna Sahib (Both these are not under Khalsa Panth Control but Govt control).
2. The report on Darshan Singh is totally false and fabricated. The opposite is being reported in www.rozanaspokesman.com. His Kirtan Sessions in vancouver Canada were record breaking attendances for 3 days. The PW is being "updated" almost hourly and 99% of this is PRO-DG reports all the time - proof of PRO-DG PHOBIA. The DG controversy is not being allowed to die a natural death....for obvious reasons.
Gyani jarnail Singh