Is Homosexuality / Transsexuality A Punishment Because Of Karma Of Previous Lives?

[Seeker2013]

I know many gay indians who are married, have kids, their wives know about their sexuality and they have their boyfriends on the side including a couple of Sikh families. One can notice from their gestures about their real sexuality

Not every gay guy can be detected by his gestures becoz not all are effeminate . Even I am fairly guyish and many don't have those gestures you speak of
Stereotyping much ?
http://towleroad.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c730253ef017d3cb974d6970c-800wi

Don't the Indians make such similar stereotypes of us sikhs and we don't like it do we ?!! when they think and portray in movies how all sikhs/punjabis are humorous , joke-cracking people or comic elements and carefree !
Stereotypes are never good brother ! Its a generalization

This is all due to the stigma in the Indian society where the drug addicts, the mentally weak, the gays and others are all kept in the closet.

OHH :}:} The more someone use 'society' word , the more I feel passionate to be like a rebel . And honestly I have NO RESPECT AND NO ADAB FOR THIS SOCIETAL RULES . NONE ! NO !

But I hope you do not have to do that. You did not choose this, but it will be rather impossible for your parents to understand that part, not because of them, but because of the value system.

The value system ? NO !!!!!! Why do people never ever realize the surest way to spark a movement is to oppress people . Again , I might be going a bit off-topic here but even the khalsa movement was a rebellion against the established hukams , no ??

I did read a katha in which someone said "the only reason Dashmesh guru wore kalgi was becoz people were told not to if they were not kings "
So , it was rebellion against established dogma !

AND I WANNA REBEL , thats what my inner spirit says , even thought it might be weak now and feels scared by the outcome of rejection , humiliation , etc but still I simply cannot envision myself bowing before the shiitty rules of the society ! It would be such a massive disrespect for the truth and an undeserving victory of these present day mughals ! >_<

 

[Seeker2013]

veerji what makes you so special lol

I really don't understand how can god be benevolent if he creates its creation and then sends him in a world where they are ridiculed/harassed/raped/denied rights - all this why ? jst becoz they are black/fat/ginger/short/white/yellow/simple/bald/hairy
they didn't even get a choice for his gift.....

I think you are comparing apples and oranges here !
Sure , people despise fat , ginger , short , black , bald , etc etc people
but then again these folks are not rejected in the same way as homosexuals are !
Gingers , fats, blacks , balds , etc are not considered criminals , are not considered mentally ill , have not suffered throughout the history , have not been denied marriage , have not been thrown at the fringes

The only people I know who have probably suffered more or as much as the homos are transgenders (khusrey , as we call in punjabi ).

 

[Seeker2013]

God has given you a gift, a way of expressing yourself and your love, you have no idea how lucky you are, think of the thousands with no passion, no love, no gift, they go through the motions of life, do as others do, aspire as to what others have, and then they die, never knowing the meaning of the word passion, not for the self, not for others and certainly not for God, God remains a distant deity that one fears, that one tries to please, to not let down, you have this, you have the gift, enjoy it, but never forget God in your passion, , do not waste a moment, live a full happy passionate life, share it with all around you.

I never could have doubted the existence of god when I was the 13 yr old , amritdhari kid but now I do ! Infact I am almost agnostic/athiest . Humans made god ! As human brain evolved (neocortex) , humans evolved curiosity and thus concept of god !
So god exists in only one place -- heads of his believers ! I doubt there is a universally pervading spirit trolling the whole universe as religion would like me to believe .

You know god simply doesn't compute by logic ! Simply doesn't ! Like for eg : Japji sahib :"hukme andar sab ko bahar hukam na koe" (Everything is inside creator's will , nothing outside of it) Well , if everything is inside its will , then why are people having karmic debt !?? Why good karam and bad karam , why do we blame people for their karams when infact they were just puppets in hands of god and simply did what god wanted !?
And if you say people are free to do their karam , then you are contradicting above line of Japji !
Anyways who cares ! god jst likes to fool around like the biggest troll of this effin huge universe !

Now , let me give you a little inside information about your god !

I jst love this video . The devil has a valid point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jARp24AJWLk

never forget to do his bidding here in this single life

What the hell does this mean ??

God has given you a gift

Why doesn't he give a land gift to the local gurudwara . He owns the whole universe , doesn't he ?
sure can give a bit of maya to run his flattery centers here on earth !

But no ! he doesn't even pay the monthly garaahi ! Well I think the next time the gurudwara people come for garaahi , I would remind them how big their god is ! lol

 

[Seeker2013]

God has given you a gift, a way of expressing yourself and your love, you have no idea how lucky you are, think of the thousands with no passion, no love, no gift, they go through the motions of life, do as others do, aspire as to what others have, and then they die, never knowing the meaning of the word passion, not for the self, not for others and certainly not for God, God remains a distant deity that one fears, that one tries to please, to not let down, you have this, you have the gift, enjoy it, but never forget God in your passion, never forget to do his bidding here in this single life, do not waste a moment, live a full happy passionate life, share it with all around you.

Jokes apart ! I do agree with what you are trying to convey ! I should see the good side of things more ! And TBH as far as sexuality is concerned , its not really that bad here ! hell its not like iran where they r gonna stone u to death .
In my very own city lives a guy who is out to everyone and he isn't getting murdered , taunted , etc . He said this himself . India is not such a bad place for homosexuals as we may think !

I remember having destructive thoughts when I realized I was gay and how people woult treat me like garbage if they came to knew . At times , I wished an asteroid to slam in earth . Thats how much I hated my own species .
And this was just a few months back . But I think over time I have developed patience . Infact I think best way is to be a good gay person and let people see for themselves and have a change of their heart =)

 

[spnadmin]

Seeker2013 ji

You are beginning to take on a hostile attitude and bordering on abusive of some members. Argumentative also, which is different from a strong debating style. I count about 6 accusations against "God" who could care less, but the tone is bound to stick in the mood of the thread.

If we are taking a turn here, from the discussion of Karma, which TBH seems to be stalled, then let's get back on track. If instead you wish to discuss profound theological questions that are common to all religions, then things are headed off-topic.

A rough approximation would be, Why would God will his creation to suffer? This is a question that crosses religious boundaries. So to ask why a Sikh God may have caused suffering for bad karmas by turning someone gay so he/she can atone in this life, and by asking what you ask in this forum, makes it seem as if Sikhs have some accountability to answer for God's acts. Your questions also presume a rather simplistic and literal idea of God, or you are assuming that others think simplistically and need to be challenged in your special way. It also begs the question of what you came here for in the first place.

It is very unfair, if not disingenuous, to begin a thread spilling suffering and need, when instead you are aiming to pick us up by our theological ears. Several members took your plight to heart and have been very kind. What then is your idea of a fair echange?

 

[spnadmin]

I would request that members wishing to explore persistent theological questions start a new thread to do so. These questions include but are not limited to: 1) whether God is good, just, benevolent, kind; 2) why God in spite of his omnipotence either allows or creates evil and suffering, or even; 3) whether God is a "prankster" as the video declares, and has rules like "look but do not touch" "touch but do not eat" "eat but do not swallow, Hah Hah Hah" !

Digressions from the topic of this thread will be deleted without further notice. Thank you

 

[Seeker2013]

Seeker2013 ji

You are beginning to take on a hostile attitude and bordering on abusive of some members. Argumentative also, which is different from a strong debating style. I count about 6 accusations against "God" who could care less, but the tone is bound to stick in the mood of the thread.

yeah about god ! not against the sikh god or the muslim god or the christian god but the idea of god I was raised with !
I don't understand why would anyone be offended by a mortal's criticism for god when god himself doesn't care any less as you said !

So to ask why a Sikh God may have caused suffering for bad karmas by turning someone gay so he/she can atone in this life, and by asking what you ask in this forum, makes it seem as if Sikhs have some accountability to answer for God's acts.

I dislike all religions equally if you are going to talk of me attacking a particular religion here ! NOPE ! TBH , even though it may not sound so , but I respect sikhism way more than other religions like islam and christianity which have the potential to make lives worse for people

Your questions also presume a rather simplistic and literal idea of God, or you are assuming that others think simplistically and need to be challenged in your special way.

I have not challenged anyone here ! to each their own

It is very unfair, if not disingenuous, to begin a thread spilling suffering and need, when instead you are aiming to pick us up by our theological ears. Several members took your plight to heart and have been very kind. What then is your idea of a fair echange?

I have not personally attacked anyone or anyone's idea of god if you haven't noticed yet !
I was told god is 'infinitely merciful , infinitely loving , infinitely insert all good sounding words here ' but since real world is totally different than that , unless ofcourse people who are already privileged members of the society might not notice the misery and mistaken lack of misery for 'mercy and love of god' . So if a person who was told abt this very cool , powerful invisible dad has suffering in his life , it will raise doubts in his mind and whats wrong then if he questions what he was told , that doesn't mean he's attacking someone or someone's idea

 

[Ishna]

I was told god is 'infinitely merciful , infinitely loving , infinitely insert all good sounding words here ' but since real world is totally different than that , unless ofcourse people who are already privileged members of the society might not notice the misery and mistaken lack of misery for 'mercy and love of god' . So if a person who was told abt this very cool , powerful invisible dad has suffering in his life , it will raise doubts in his mind and whats wrong then if he questions what he was told , that doesn't mean he's attacking someone or someone's idea

Do you think Guru Arjan was thinking that when he was being cooked alive?

There are many modes of thought about "god", and the simplest one by far is "he's a man sitting on a cloud playing with us like puppets". You can see the ridiculousness in this idea, and you can see how logically curious the idea of karma is - so now the challenge is to think about the puzzle in a different way.

Out with the old modes of thinking and in with the new!

Have a read of this with regard to reincarnation, karma and caste and tell me how you feel: http://sikhbulletin.com/Bulletins/SikhBulletinJanFeb2009.pdf

 

[aristotle]

yeah about god ! not against the sikh god or the muslim god or the christian god but the idea of god I was raised with !
I don't understand why would anyone be offended by a mortal's criticism for god when god himself doesn't care any less as you said !

Seeker Ji,
No one is offended your criticism of the 'God' of your definition, infact there have been more serious debates and hardtalks here on SPN. But, the point that the thread is going off track because you are trying to squeeze some completely unnecessary logics and assertions is appropriate....Also, please guard your tone while referring to fellow forum members. Everyone has their own self-respect.

 

[Seeker2013]

Everyone has their own self-respect.

Again , what are you talking about ? I haven't personally attacked anyone !

 

[spnadmin]

Again , what are you talking about ? I haven't personally attacked anyone !

No one said you did! But you have been rude and belligerent. Now you are doing the "Who me?" voice. "I didn't do it! Why are you saying that?"

Let's cut to the chase. Do you believe that being gay is punishment for karmas of your past lives? Please explain why you believe what you believe.

It would be good to take an approach that does not put your parents or God in the dock. If you accept the idea of karma you should be able to manage it. The pranksterisms of God become immaterial because and once you accepted the idea of karma of past lives. The "law of karma" has been put into play. Railing against God is useless.

 

[Seeker2013]

Let's cut to the chase. Do you believe that being gay is punishment for karmas of your past lives? Please explain why you believe what you believe.

How do I know ??
just know I was thinking that men desire physical intimacy with women , but I don't ...
(thinking logically ok?) for one to have physical relationship with someone needs attraction to that person but what requires attraction ?

Simply put
Attraction --leads to--> Love
So , ? --leads to--> attraction

whats the question mark here ? Is it inborn or environmental or just a part of feminine brain wiring . I don't know . Can u help me out ? what do u think ??

The pranksterisms of God become immaterial because and once you accepted the idea of karma of past lives. The "law of karma" has been put into play. Railing against God is useless.

I am not rallying against god , its more like I am just pointing out the incoherence in what I was made to believe ! If I were to accept karma idea , wouldn't I also have to believe that one pankti of japji where it says 'everthing is under god's hukam' . So even if I had bad past karma , god made me do it !
god's still in charge by this logic .jst saying

 

[spnadmin]

Seeker 3k ji

Actually this is not an lol issue. You are now back to where you began in the thread, taking it into circles. I am going to go to bed and will decide tomorrow whether the thread needs to be closed.

I would just want to point out 2 things.

1. You may be reacting to a hypocritical view of homosexuality that comes from society and parents projecting their own moral prejudices onto God. If that is the case, then you are suffering at their hands because of prejudices that have nothing to do with God.

2. I think you have painted yourself into a corner. You can take the view that God has serious shortcomings. Then why take 'God' seriously? Or, you can decide that there is no God. No matter which choice you make, once you make that choice, then God is not part of the equation because you have removed him as a serious player. To put it another way: God has been banned for the season for unnecessary roughness and/or prolonged absence. If God has been banned from the game, how can he be blamed if your team loses? If God is absent then God cannot be blamed for your suffering. You can blame God only if you believe there is a god. Moving on, if you believe that there is a god and that God is illogical and irrational then he cannot be an omnipotent prankster. How then can you blame him for your suffering, or for famine, pestilence and war?

I think you really need to think about point 1 above. You may be reacting to someone else's theory of God and karma. Well now I am off to bed. See you on the threads tomorrow.

And apologies to all for the "he" "God" ... I am being lazy.

 

[findingmyway]

This thread is temporarily closed. I have been watching it for a few days and it is becoming more and more negative. Forum members have tried to be helpful in good faith but it seems the thread opener would like to complain and does not really want help. I suggest the next few days be spent exploring the basics of Sikh philosophy in relation to the topic and then with a better grounding perhaps the discussion can move forward in a more productive manner. Also bear in mind, that everyone has problems and issues in their lives. We are all dealing with baggage and no one person's is worse than anyone else's so having the attitude of a self martyr is not helpful. Here are some links to get you started:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/40108-homosexuality-within-sikhism.html

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/39975-why-is-the-law-karma-rejected.html

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/39836-in-gurbani-is-it-karma-actions.html

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/22289-karma-freewill-and-hukam-in-sikhism.html

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inter...ragic-earthquake-japan-fate-karma-living.html

This is not a comprehensive list. Sikhi is all about learning so own research is required.

 

[spnadmin]

Thanks findingmyway ji

The thread is now permanently closed. No resolution of the connection between homosexuality/trans-genderism and karma ever emerged. It is also very unusual for someone who admits to being misunderstood to then turn on those who make an attempt to understand.


Let me repeat one of my previous questions to Seeker2013 ji. For anyone who is struggling with problems of sexual identity within Sikhi, ask yourself if you are reacting

to a hypocritical view of homosexuality that comes from society and parents projecting their own moral prejudices onto God. If that is the case, then you are suffering at their hands because of prejudices that have nothing to do with God.

p/s Protests won't work. There seems to be consensus among leaders and admin that the thread is not moving forward. findingmyway ji has kindly posted links to background reading. Everyone has plenty now to read. We can reflect before starting new threads on this topic.