Is It Better To Just Insulate Yourself In Your Own World?

[Original]

But if this Truth seeker wants to try and make sense of part of it then so be it.

..on the proviso that metaphysical truths [God] transcends both the empirical sciences [senses] and rational analysis [mental activity].

The ultimate reality is Nothing

..really ? according to science, even the vacuum of space is a lively soup of particles n waves popping up out of 'nowhere' ! Nanak's Nirankar [ultimate reality] cannot be known or expressed in words. It can only be experienced, meaning, take you for example; Sikhilove as a human being can be studied by various disciplines of art n science. We can know what she eats, how she sleeps, when she laughs, how she laughs, why she laughs and the rest, but what we cannot know is what Sikhilove is in her self, alone Sikhilove can experience being Sikhilove, does that stack up ? I'm kinda getting dizzy. So in a roundabout way, alone the experiencer know what "anhad shabad" [ultimate reality] is.

but it's been relayed to us for us to

..no girl ! its always been here, its you waking up to it, "bingo"!

Apply it to our lives and contemplate

...you'll miss out on all the good bad n the uglies then ? Have a think ! and if you ready, read verse on page 1412 SGGSJ, when Baba Ji warns, "....if you think you ready to come n play with me then there is no going back".

The application and the contemplation comes when one is ready ! It comes to all, maybe not in one life, hey, few more revisits perhaps !

We must experience it for ourselves.

YES ! Remember, it doesn't have to happen when you're sitting cross-legged, it can happen anywhere, anytime to anyone - Nanak calls such an experience "Gur Prasad" [by the grace of God]

Nanak invites the good bad ugly liar cheat n the drop-outs, to come n play the game of the soldier saint and "experience" the "God" factor !

Goodnight -

 

[davinderdhanjal]

Very apt topic for something that has worried me for some time now.
Keeping in mind the sacrifices our Gurus made for Humanity and Sikhi they did not have it easy or convince all - there were always 'for and against'.

By deffinition Sikh is there to learn. Ways of learning may be force feed, easy luring, life experiance or Sangat. I believe we choose the simplest form of learning - which can be easily maniuplated and made emotional and suffer consequences.

An example I came across recenltly was battle of Saraghari and sacrifices made by Amritdhari Sikhs by a non Sikh and well meaning person - it exaggerated the Singhs' achievements of killing thousand rather than a hundered of the attackers. The way to get close to the reality is by reading opposite sides claims and comments. This needs time and fair judgement the Gurus instilled in us.

By insulating ourselves may be responsible for new Sects, Deras, etc., unable to live a normal life and diluting Sikhi and possibly causing more harm than good.

As all that happens is 'God's Will' - that has two elements (at least) Karma and present life which we have some control over if we follow the Guidance to correct the mistakes of previous existance.

In my understanding we can not change anybody leave alone the world. But take a lesson from our children as they grow up - we do not teach them 'every thing' ninty percent of their learning is watching us tackle life day to day - if we are true to ourselves it will be reflected in our behaviour for all to see (especially children) and this will set an example for all - knowing fully well even that will upset some but we are able to live 'truthful' life.

 

[RD1]

The way to get close to the reality is by reading opposite sides claims and comments. This needs time and fair judgement the Gurus instilled in us.

Agreed, we must expose ourselves to different perspective, and different versions of a story/event to get the whole picture. This applies very much to the news and media today.

By insulating ourselves may be responsible for new Sects, Deras, etc., unable to live a normal life and diluting Sikhi and possibly causing more harm than good.

.
I feel this is already happening today. There are a lot if misunderstandings about Sikh teachings, especially when it comes to equality, and superstitions/rituals. Perhaps by insulating ourselves, we become more ignorant and oblivious, not only regarding Sikhi, but to the world around is - how it works, how much people are suffering.

In my understanding we can not change anybody leave alone the world. But take a lesson from our children as they grow up - we do not teach them 'every thing' ninty percent of their learning is watching us tackle life day to day - if we are true to ourselves it will be reflected in our behaviour for all to see (especially children) and this will set an example for all - knowing fully well even that will upset some but we are able to live 'truthful' life.

Well put. Our actions and behaviours can speak louder than words. It may not always be effective to preach or lecture others, but it may be better to really embody the teachings for ourselves, and let it show in our actions - strive to live truthfully.

 

[sukhsingh]

Agreed, we must expose ourselves to different perspective, and different versions of a story/event to get the whole picture. This applies very much to the news and media today.


.
I feel this is already happening today. There are a lot if misunderstandings about Sikh teachings, especially when it comes to equality, and superstitions/rituals. Perhaps by insulating ourselves, we become more ignorant and oblivious, not only regarding Sikhi, but to the world around is - how it works, how much people are suffering.



Well put. Our actions and behaviours can speak louder than words. It may not always be effective to preach or lecture others, but it may be better to really embody the teachings for ourselves, and let it show in our actions - strive to live truthfully.

I would go further and say 'insulation' is a symptom and result and manifestation of the limits of our 'sikhi' when we double down and say I know what is right what is wrong then we stop being Sikh.. Really it's a scale some people find the idea of questioning the reality around them terrifying and take solace in absolutes some of us believe we are introverted and have a desire to explore and understand.. However when we say I know better than the other we are also creating walls and hence becoming insulated.. I believe that is why the highest principles before anything guru sahib teaches us kirat Karo, naam japo, vandh shako... Because to do those things who have to do them without any discrimination and presumed intellectual superiority is a form of discrimination

 

[RD1]

I would go further and say 'insulation' is a symptom and result and manifestation of the limits of our 'sikhi' when we double down and say I know what is right what is wrong then we stop being Sikh.. Really it's a scale some people find the idea of questioning the reality around them terrifying and take solace in absolutes some of us believe we are introverted and have a desire to explore and understand.. However when we say I know better than the other we are also creating walls and hence becoming insulated.. I believe that is why the highest principles before anything guru sahib teaches us kirat Karo, naam japo, vandh shako... Because to do those things who have to do them without any discrimination and presumed intellectual superiority is a form of discrimination

I think this is also why the Gurus taught that we should control the ego, and see ourselves as "nothing." The more confident, successful, intelligent, and socio-economically comfortable we see ourselves, the greater our egos can grow, and the more insulated we can become this way too - we can start seeing ourselves as 'superior' in some ways, more accomplished. The more sure we feel of ourselves, the less likely we may be inclined to question our reality and perspectives.

Thinking in absolutes is a death to a reflective mind. How much out there is really so black and white? Everything is a shade of grey. We want to convince ourselves that all is just black and white to simplify life for ourselves. But this is ultimately breeding ignorance and falsehood. And it has also led to serious suffering, discrimination, marginalization, hate, and violence towards those that do not neatly fit into "black or white" When we put ourselves into these rigid boxes, we will also inhibit knowing our true full selves - all of our own vastness.

 

[sukhsingh]

I think this is also why the Gurus taught that we should control the ego, and see ourselves as "nothing." The more confident, successful, intelligent, and socio-economically comfortable we see ourselves, the greater our egos can grow, and the more insulated we can become this way too - we can start seeing ourselves as 'superior' in some ways, more accomplished. The more sure we feel of ourselves, the less likely we may be inclined to question our reality and perspectives.

Thinking in absolutes is a death to a reflective mind. How much out there is really so black and white? Everything is a shade of grey. We want to convince ourselves that all is just black and white to simplify life for ourselves. But this is ultimately breeding ignorance and falsehood. And it has also led to serious suffering, discrimination, marginalization, hate, and violence towards those that do not neatly fit into "black or white" When we put ourselves into these rigid boxes, we will also inhibit knowing our true full selves - all of our own vastness.

I agree I do think however seeing things as not black or white can lead to moral relativism which is also dangerous.. It can make us unknowingly apathetic and amoral.. It's a fine line.. But I believe that to help bani gives us guidance

 

[RD1]

I agree I do think however seeing things as not black or white can lead to moral relativism which is also dangerous.. It can make us unknowingly apathetic and amoral.. It's a fine line.. But I believe that to help bani gives us guidance

Fine lines indeed, and perhaps ultimately balance is required. Seeing things as black and white can also foster apathy and amorality as it can lead to dehumanization of anything that falls in the grey.

Everything has to be assessed in the specific context from which it arises. Context matters and makes all the difference.

Agreed. Bani is our supreme source of guidance.

 

[sukhsingh]

Fine lines indeed, and perhaps ultimately balance is required. Seeing things as black and white can also foster apathy and amorality as it can lead to dehumanization of anything that falls in the grey.

Everything has to be assessed in the specific context from which it arises. Context matters and makes all the difference.

Agreed. Bani is our supreme source of guidance.

It's so difficult sometimes to delineate... I for one am a pacifist however there was a time when I was younger and would be bullied that I would without a second thought get in to a fight.. When I had a epiphany about the nature of truth it made me become totally debilitated by the thought of raising my hand.. However I then after many years also realised that actually I had now become afraid of confrontation.. Which was equally misguided... I came to the conclusion that I I must be open to new ideas whilst not being able to be fearless in challenging.. Insulation has many facets...

I think that is why mool mantar is so powerful.. Without going beyond anything we can or at least I do measure that singular expression of truth.. BTW I come up short most of the time.. When as a child I experienced my own interpretation of sat naam I thought if we look deep enough we know what sat is.. I know when I'm being or have been insulated when I'm being lazy I don't need some one to tell me.. Although that can help

 

[RD1]

It's so difficult sometimes to delineate... I for one am a pacifist however there was a time when I was younger and would be bullied that I would without a second thought get in to a fight.. When I had a epiphany about the nature of truth it made me become totally debilitated by the thought of raising my hand.. However I then after many years also realised that actually I had now become afraid of confrontation.. Which was equally misguided... I came to the conclusion that I I must be open to new ideas whilst not being able to be fearless in challenging.. Insulation has many facets...

It definitely can be difficult.
What you wrote reminds me about what @chazSingh said in a different thread - "accept that God takes you one way and then the other...the director..." - its like you went from one way to another way of thinking/behaving, and eventually, from both experiences, you were able to develop a more wholesome and balanced perspective.

I think that is why mool mantar is so powerful.. Without going beyond anything we can or at least I do measure that singular expression of truth.. BTW I come up short most of the time.. When as a child I experienced my own interpretation of sat naam I thought if we look deep enough we know what sat is.. I know when I'm being or have been insulated when I'm being lazy I don't need some one to tell me.. Although that can help

Yes, looking deep enough - questioning and reflecting on our ownselves can certainly bring us closer to the truth.

It really can help when someone tells you....sometimes i know i can get too carried away with something or start getting "insulated" or trapped in a certain way of thinking and behaving. Having someone to put me in my place helps. Bring me back to self-reflection if I have strayed a little from it....

 

[sukhsingh]

wrote reminds me about what @chazSingh said in a different thread - "accept that God takes you one way and

I'm not sure whether I agree 'God' does anything.. Rather the pursuit of truth does I don't really believe in the idea that 'god' is a agent.. But I'm probably talking cross purposes for this topic

 

[RD1]

I'm not sure whether I agree 'God' does anything.. Rather the pursuit of truth does I don't really believe in the idea that 'god' is a agent.. But I'm probably talking cross purposes for this topic

How much God takes a direct vs. indirect role, or how much we take such statements literally vs. figuratively is always an interesting topic!

 

[sukhsingh]

How much God takes a direct vs. indirect role, or how much we take such statements literally vs. figuratively is always an interesting topic!

As you can probably tell I always take issue with the semantics around that particular issue! Lol it makes me very uncomfortable for some reason

 

[RD1]

As you can probably tell I always take issue with the semantics around that particular issue! Lol it makes me very uncomfortable for some reason

Semantics can make all the difference!

 

[sukhsingh]

Semantics can make all the difference!

Absolutely especially when discussing bani.. It is crafted to perfection.. Which was the point I was making earlier about the difference between 1, ek etc

 

[sukhsingh]

On a different thread (in Punjabi) Exegesis Of Gurbani As Per Sri Guru Granth Sahib-Ajooni Saibang

 

[RD1]

Absolutely especially when discussing bani.. It is crafted to perfection.. Which was the point I was making earlier about the difference between 1, ek etc

Bani is beautiful. From what i have read here and there, it is so poetic and metaphorical. It really requires deep contemplation to try and grasp the underlying messages. But even then, we can all interpret it slightly differently....and it therefore becomes very difficult to know whos interpretation is "more accurate" than anothers....

 

[sukhsingh]

Bani is beautiful. From what i have read here and there, it is so poetic and metaphorical. It really requires deep contemplation to try and grasp the underlying messages. But even then, we can all interpret it slightly differently....and it therefore becomes very difficult to know whos interpretation is "more accurate" than anothers....

Exactly the fact that it is poetic and set to music means that we can not be dogmatic about it we have to accept its inherent nature. We have to apply critical thinking.. If we find a if or but it means going back to the drawing board

 

[RD1]

Exactly the fact that it is poetic and set to music means that we can not be dogmatic about it we have to accept its inherent nature. We have to apply critical thinking.. If we find a if or but it means going back to the drawing board

And this goes back to not becoming too insulated, but always being open to learning, to re-learning, to re-interpreting, to integrating new information into our mindsets.

Sikhism truly is about being a student, being a contemplater, and striving towards truth. Always questioning, all the while keeping Oneness and Love at our core.

 

[sukhsingh]

And this goes back to not becoming too insulated, but always being open to learning, to re-learning, to re-interpreting, to integrating new information into our mindsets.

Sikhism truly is about being a student, being a contemplater, and striving towards truth. Always questioning, all the while keeping Oneness and Love at our core.

I know I really don't relate to when people articulate absolutes in interpretation of bani.. Except mool mantar I struggle to find any example of absolutist statements.. More like a unpeeling of a onion, it forces one to constantly go deeper and learn... The perpetual student.. To truly seek.. We are members of a tribe called quest.. I always think how fitting it is that the transliteration of a sikh is one who seeks ..
 
My own interpretation of Gurprasad has always been that knowledge will bestow the realisation of onkaar else it would be guru prasad.. The humility guru sahibs had is truly great

 

[Pathfinder]

Bani is beautiful. From what i have read here and there, it is so poetic and metaphorical. It really requires deep contemplation to try and grasp the underlying messages. But even then, we can all interpret it slightly differently....and it therefore becomes very difficult to know whos interpretation is "more accurate" than anothers....

Prose has more or less a literal translation. Poetry, that is one of the reasons the truth was revealed thus in the Guru Granth Sahib ji by the Guru's. A profound reason that they chose poetry. So one can feel the truth.

Poetry affects each soul in its own way. Some find it soothing, some find it uplifting, some draw strength, hope, inspiration and so much else. The same hymn can mean differently with each recitation depending on one's state of mind or spiritual progress.

Is it not amazing that we find a new perspective each time we let the same Bani penetrate our soul?.
The truth is the same, is one, is Akaal but just the fact that we see it from a better vantage point with the tiny spiritual progress some fortunate souls make.

You can compel the Bani to resonate in your soul using just a little teeny weeny bit of will. The Bani compels one to fall in love and then one begins to contemplate, guide and lead one towards the wondrous truth.

The Bani is poetry of the highest order. Just being around within earshot provides so much solace. Just imagine how basking in its beauty will do.