Is It Better To Just Insulate Yourself In Your Own World?

[Harry Haller]

@Harry Haller started reading this book, and I am loving it!

that is impossible, I have lent this book out maybe 40 times, and I do not believe anyone got past the first 2 pages......

strangely enough I read the treatise last night whilst eating rice pudding

 

[sukhsingh]

Anyone can do good yes. Many people, on doing good deeds, will fall into ego of seva aka Trishna. Humans are susceptible to corruption, self glorification and fear based decision making. The remedy for these ills are the death of the ego.

The only way to avoid the above flaws are to accept that you are nothing, you have nothing, you do nothing- it's All Him and All is by His Grace.

So simple, yet this is humans greatest challenge. I am sh*t and that's it (excuse the language).

Corruption exists everywhere, charities have become a scam, 'great' leaders will perform great deeds one day, and bomb a city full of innocent civilians the next. Governments are full of mass murdering serial killers spending billions on arms and satellites while people starve and many heads of corporations have become greedy interested only of filling their own pockets. People in power have abused the power He's blessed them with and it's become their curse.

The difference between the 10 Kings and the false egotistical kings of today are that the 10 were devoid of ego, fear and enmity. They were as Satgurus, uncorruptable and 100% trustworthy. You cannot get a King/ Royal/ leader as perfect as that. Hence they were the perfect masters of Miri and Piri- of both spiritual and temporal authority.

They may have been Satgur or 100% trustworthy however they ask us not to have blind faith. The truth they espouse is non-dogmatic. It is a truth one and all can realise by being a sikh ie. By searching for truth, by khoj. We say they are 100 % trustworthy because we recognise there greatness however they never claimed it. In fact they warned us against it and blind faith.

 

[RD1]

that is impossible, I have lent this book out maybe 40 times, and I do not believe anyone got past the first 2 pages......

I am enthralled by it! And it really does connect with the original post in this thread.

strangely enough I read the treatise last night whilst eating rice pudding

by Hume?
On the Genealogy of Morality by Nietzsche is next on the list for me.

 

[sukhsingh]

..I accept ! but because post 31 was loaded, I expressed it as such.

..do you always carry an umbrella ?

..that's because coming to SPN wasn't your choice alone ! so much so, the baggage [good baggage] you're carrying can only be unloaded amongst likeminded people [sat sangat]. External situations n circumstances together with life's trials n tribulations have brought you here for a very good reason; to move closer to the ultimate reality. That's how Waheguru works - call it evolution if you like !

..that's a human trait and not a doctrine ! Atheists also contribute, don't they ?

..question ? what is the primary function of Sikhism, for isn't the provisions of social, economical and political facets the remit of a Government ?

...were the gurus the first humans to do all of the above or would you say human history is full of such altruistic endeavours and sacrifices ?

..do you think they could've moved away if they had the opportunity to do so ? No ! you know why ? because their righteous minds wouldn't have allowed them to do so. Righteous mind is "God" [SGGSJ, 441] all humans are expected to uphold morality, meaning, you don't have to be a Sikh to be a good human.

..leadership, leader of the pack is an evolutionary trait for survival sake ! just imagine for a moment if Nanak hadn't come on to the scene what the Islamite's would've done to the Indians ? They would've been mullered. Forget about Sikhism, Hinduism would've been a thing of the past. Classic examples, are places like Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines , etc. So yes, there was the "need" for a leader ! And it happen to be our Gurus !

..correct !

..lol..better versed today than I was yesterday, shall we say ! I didn't come to SPN to argue, alas no ! I saw the sign Sikh and checked-in. I'm still waiting for the real deal because spiritual Sikh is cut from a different cloth and the spiritual Nanak is the real deal. All else is airy fairy.

As regards your original post, I put it to you my dear, that it is a prerogative and privilege of us humans to quest for a meaning to our life and to question whether such a meaning exists at all. It is to this end, Nanak's Sikhism was founded and rises to meet the challenge head on, thus:

॥ ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥ ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥ SGGSJ, 12
Translation: ..hey RD1, human birth is to meet the Lord, all else is neither here nor there, go therefore, congregate with the lovers of truth [satnam].

Remain, connected to "shabad guru" all else will pan out beautifully !

Take care - goodnight

PS - I tend to thought provoke to search for the ultimate reality. How ? by distilling the essential elements of our everyday beliefs.

Can you please qualify what you mean by had guru nanak not existed Hinduism would have been destroyed?

 

[sukhsingh]

@Original Nanak believed that humans could have a character much better than what nature has ordained them with and felt there is no reason why such a character couldn't be had, hence, Sikh.

I think guru nanak suggested our true nature was masked by maya. I don't understand what you mean by ordained?

 

[sukhsingh]

@Original Nanak believed that humans could have a character much better than what nature has ordained them with and felt there is no reason why such a character couldn't be had, hence, Sikh.

I think guru nanak suggested our true nature was masked by maya. I don't understand what you mean by ordained?

@Harry Haller started reading this book, and I am loving it!

If you like steppenwolf, read the glass bead game and siddharta also by Herman Hesse.. Great books

 

[Harry Haller]

I am enthralled by it! And it really does connect with the original post in this thread.

yes, yes, it does, I cannot read it without getting goosebumps, I have a huge affinity for Hesse, I read it first when I was 27, and now I am the same age as the main character, and strangely enough, in the same situation.

by Hume?

err I think its Ambrosia, although I prefer Marks and Spencers own brand, they have more nuts.

 

[Harry Haller]

@Original Nanak believed that humans could have a character much better than what nature has ordained them with and felt there is no reason why such a character couldn't be had, hence, Sikh.

I think guru nanak suggested our true nature was masked by maya. I don't understand what you mean by ordained?

If you like steppenwolf, read the glass bead game and siddharta also by Herman Hesse.. Great books

Siddartha I only read again a few weeks ago, but I could not relate to it as much as I related to Steppenwolf, Demian, is of course famous for being quoted on Abraxas by Santana, and is again very much like steppenwolf, quite dark, but I think for genuine pleasure in reading, Narcissus and Goldmund takes the biscuit.

and then we can move on to the dice man!

 

[Original]

Good morning Everyone,

Can you please qualify what you mean by had guru nanak not existed Hinduism would have been destroyed?

...this was said within the context of "evolution" on the proviso, Islam is inherently prone to conquer n convert [pre-enlightenment] the fate of Hinduism would've been short-lived if evolution hadn't favoured its survival. Baba Nanak together with the rest of Sikh Society was to this end - save a particular social group [albeit religious] from extinction.

The case in point was "leader" to demonstrate how evolution works.

And, if I could digress to show how this is analogous with what you're trying to do in relation to mix-marriages - spearheadeding as it were to accommodate evolutionary niche.

Sorry, bit long-winded !

 

[Original]

@Original Nanak believed that humans could have a character much better than what nature has ordained them with and felt there is no reason why such a character couldn't be had, hence, Sikh.

I think guru nanak suggested our true nature was masked by maya. I don't understand what you mean by ordained?

...I wouldn't say true nature because in truth we are spiritual, yes our physical embodiment is masked by maya. The reason I used the word "ordained" was again within the context of evolution to reflect the "human condition. And, Baba Nanak [opening verse of Asa di Var] acknowledges from an ideological perspective that human nature can be elevated to spiritual heights, meaning, the potential to become. This concept is further compounded by maxims such as "chardi kala", meaning, ascending spirit.

 

[sukhsingh]

Good morning Everyone,

...this was said within the context of "evolution" on the proviso, Islam is inherently prone to conquer n convert [pre-enlightenment] the fate of Hinduism would've been short-lived if evolution hadn't favoured its survival. Baba Nanak together with the rest of Sikh Society was to this end - save a particular social group [albeit religious] from extinction.

The case in point was "leader" to demonstrate how evolution works.

And, if I could digress to show how this is analogous with what you're trying to do in relation to mix-marriages - spearheadeding as it were to accommodate evolutionary niche.

Sorry, bit long-winded !

I'm sorry you've lost me.. How was the survival of Hinduism dependent on Sikhism I'm lost

 

[Sikhilove]

They may have been Satgur or 100% trustworthy however they ask us not to have blind faith. The truth they espouse is non-dogmatic. It is a truth one and all can realise by being a sikh ie. By searching for truth, by khoj. We say they are 100 % trustworthy because we recognise there greatness however they never claimed it. In fact they warned us against it and blind faith.

Of course. On the same note, one can recognise a false baba today if one is a real truth seeker.

Blind faith is actually what IS needed in another sense. To recognise Him everywhere in everything and everyone without the need for visions. This is what our Gurus taught us.

In recognising a false baba, you realise that big talk, miracles, and ego shows etc are not what are needed, it's true real humility and this is what the world sensed and felt from the Gurus. It's intuition and a resonance with the gyan spoken that guides a being to the truth.

 

[sukhsingh]

Of course. On the same note, one can recognise a false baba today if one is a real truth seeker.

Blind faith is actually what IS needed in another sense. To recognise Him everywhere in everything and everyone without the need for visions. This is what our Gurus taught us.

In recognising a false baba, you realise that big talk, miracles, and ego shows etc are not what are needed, it's true real humility and this is what the world sensed and felt from the Gurus. It's intuition and a resonance with the gyan spoken that guides a being to the truth.

I get where you are coming from however I think the gurus don't ask for blind faith. For me The creative genius of gurbani is that the guru's described and articulated universal truths and the fact that they used poetry and music only reinforce that. Bani is bani and we can worship the words and the beauty but ultimately inherent nature of poetry requires us to transcend. I personally have always been transfixed by the genius of mool mantar to the point I have after many years of study not even studied in detail the whole of jap ji sahib.. When I think just about the grammar, the fact guru sahib choose a numeral instead of writing it out. Then followed by onkaar, which in one innovative symbol/letter incorporates a profound concept. For me what makes bani so amazing is that you can't really argue with it from whichever perspective you approach it from.. Ie. I am sure that if one was to talk to Richard Dawkins and explain to him mool mantar he would find it scientifically acceptable. 1 indivisible source which is beyond definition (whatsoever was before the big bang) . From which a primal creative vibration emanated from and from which everything originates (mass is finite, all the atoms in the universe can be traced back to that singularity). So for me you don't need blind faith it's all very rational. In bani the guru's don't really express themselves in terms of right or wrong, rather they elucidate and provoke thought so we can see for ourselves. They never ask us to just agree and not experience the truth for ourselves...
That's how I feel anyway and it blows my mind every day just thinking how carefully they crafted each and every piece of syntax.

 

[Sikhilove]

I get where you are coming from however I think the gurus don't ask for blind faith. For me The creative genius of gurbani is that the guru's described and articulated universal truths and the fact that they used poetry and music only reinforce that. Bani is bani and we can worship the words and the beauty but ultimately inherent nature of poetry requires us to transcend. I personally have always been transfixed by the genius of mool mantar to the point I have after many years of study not even studied in detail the whole of jap ji sahib.. When I think just about the grammar, the fact guru sahib choose a numeral instead of writing it out. Then followed by onkaar, which in one innovative symbol/letter incorporates a profound concept. For me what makes bani so amazing is that you can't really argue with it from whichever perspective you approach it from.. Ie. I am sure that if one was to talk to Richard Dawkins and explain to him mool mantar he would find it scientifically acceptable. 1 indivisible source which is beyond definition (whatsoever was before the big bang) . From which a primal creative vibration emanated from and from which everything originates (mass is finite, all the atoms in the universe can be traced back to that singularity). So for me you don't need blind faith it's all very rational. In bani the guru's don't really express themselves in terms of right or wrong, rather they elucidate and provoke thought so we can see for ourselves. They never ask us to just agree and not experience the truth for ourselves...
That's how I feel anyway and it blows my mind every day just thinking how carefully they crafted each and every piece of syntax.

Rational in a way yes, but then there's the spirit realm, a lot of things in the khel that can't be explained. The fact that The Universe derived from Nothing, no atoms, no Nothing is beyond rationality and logic.

I get what you're saying and yes it's incredibly stunning. Yes they want us to experience the truth for ourselves, that's the point of Gurbani, it's not just to read over and over again, although joy can be had doing so.

It's to read and Apply to our everyday lives and in meditation so we can experience what the Masters did- they want us to become the Saint they describe in Sukhmani sahib Ji, the Brahmgyani etc. They want us read Gurbani and Become Gurbani.

 

[sukhsingh]

Rational in a way yes, but then there's the spirit realm, a lot of things in the khel that can't be explained. The fact that The Universe derived from Nothing, no atoms, no Nothing is beyond rationality and logic.

I get what you're saying and yes it's incredibly stunning. Yes they want us to experience the truth for ourselves, that's the point of Gurbani, it's not just to read over and over again, although joy can be had doing so.

It's to read and Apply to our everyday lives and in meditation so we can experience what the Masters did- they want us to become the Saint they describe in Sukhmani sahib Ji, the Brahmgyani etc. They want us read Gurbani and Become Gurbani.

Nice. I'm not sure however before the universe there was nothing. Isn't that what 1 onkaar articulates in the structure. Onkaar follows 1. The creative primal force as described by onkaar follows 1 but other than knowing that something must have created onkaar we will never know or ever be able to prove. Mass is finite, but where did that mass come from. And where did what created come from ad infinitum. The idea of multiverses also can hang from this idea. I'm kinda thinking out loud here (which is why I love this forum, it's a enabler! )

Moving on I think the moral aspect of of bani is that it offers us a strategy and framework to limit noise and maya. By being selfless empathetic humans ultimately we are rewarded by clearing out maya ie. When we treat people badly whether we admit it or not a part of our own consciousness makes us reflect we may choose to live with the discontent and convince ourselves that the world is all about 'I' however even those this process happens subconsciously ultimately it is a product of not questioning oneself or even more sadly not having the strength to transcend our demons. I think reading gurbani is obviously important but is not necessarily a end in itself...

 

[Original]

Rational in a way yes

..really ? if the mind [rational] were to ferry you across to Nanak's Nirankar then why conjure up the rigmarole for "gurmukh" ? Nanak would've been better of ploughing his fields at Kartarpur than to have wasted his entire life dichotomising manmukh and gurmukh, don't you think ?

but then there's the spirit realm, a lot of things in the khel that can't be explained.

..that's better, like verse 34 to 37 of Japji Sahib, for example ! Here, Nanak reveals the realm of the soul en route to her "real" home [sachkhand].

is beyond rationality and logic.

..indeed it is !

Yes they want us to experience the truth for ourselves, that's the point of Gurbani

..no, that's not the point of Gurbani, Gurbani is the point, Gurbani is the "truth", you have to be a believer to experience what convention calls "mystical experience". Nanak calls it "anhad shabad".

Didn't Archimedes said, 'give me a point to stand on and I will move the earth' ? Isn't that what "nam simran" is ? Of course it is ! It is the metaphysical truth, meaning, the ultimate reality, the one beyond the world of maya, the one beyond the universal mind [rationality], the one beyond empirical science [sense data] the home of the soul. Gurbani is proof, meaning, point !

Guru Gobind said, ".....khoj shabad main lay", meaning, take any word from Gurbani and chew on it, "all" will be revealed !

It's to read and Apply to our everyday lives and in meditation so we can experience what the Masters did- they want us to become the Saint they describe in sukhmani sahib Ji, the Brahmgyani etc. They want us read Gurbani and Become Gurbani.

..beautiful ! Because the Kaur and the Singh are to amplify the "music of the spheres", they are the music, they are the Gurbani, they are the song of "creation" !

 

[RD1]

If you like steppenwolf, read the glass bead game and siddharta also by Herman Hesse.. Great books

Siddartha I only read again a few weeks ago, but I could not relate to it as much as I related to Steppenwolf, Demian, is of course famous for being quoted on Abraxas by Santana, and is again very much like steppenwolf, quite dark, but I think for genuine pleasure in reading, Narcissus and Goldmund takes the biscuit.

and then we can move on to the dice man!

Thanks for all these suggestions!
Inspiring, mind-opening books that I absolutely love if anyone is interested:
The Undiscovered Self - Carl Jung
The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are - Alan Watts
Freedom from the Known - J. Krishnamurti

 

[RD1]

ultimately it is a product of not questioning oneself or even more sadly not having the strength to transcend our demons

Self-reflection, contemplation, introspection - once we start to build these skills, our egos and fears can come to the surface, and then can be worked on, and ultimately our eyes, minds, and hearts open up.

 

[Sikhilove]

Nice. I'm not sure however before the universe there was nothing. Isn't that what 1 onkaar articulates in the structure. Onkaar follows 1. The creative primal force as described by onkaar follows 1 but other than knowing that something must have created onkaar we will never know or ever be able to prove. Mass is finite, but where did that mass come from. And where did what created come from ad infinitum. The idea of multiverses also can hang from this idea. I'm kinda thinking out loud here (which is why I love this forum, it's a enabler! )

Moving on I think the moral aspect of of bani is that it offers us a strategy and framework to limit noise and maya. By being selfless empathetic humans ultimately we are rewarded by clearing out maya ie. When we treat people badly whether we admit it or not a part of our own consciousness makes us reflect we may choose to live with the discontent and convince ourselves that the world is all about 'I' however even those this process happens subconsciously ultimately it is a product of not questioning oneself or even more sadly not having the strength to transcend our demons. I think reading gurbani is obviously important but is not necessarily a end in itself...

Truth is the Master, God was the first Truth knower, he realised himself to be Sat and then wished to share His discovery with another. Hence the Big Bang. But it all derives from the Heart of Truth, from Nothing.

What existed first was the Truth, no image no form, just frequency. All beyond logic. Detach from image and form and see All as One and One in All and you have Nirvair and Nirboah.

..really ? if the mind [rational] were to ferry you across to Nanak's Nirankar then why conjure up the rigmarole for "gurmukh" ? Nanak would've been better of ploughing his fields at Kartarpur than to have wasted his entire life dichotomising manmukh and gurmukh, don't you think ?

..that's better, like verse 34 to 37 of Japji Sahib, for example ! Here, Nanak reveals the realm of the soul en route to her "real" home [sachkhand].

..indeed it is !

..no, that's not the point of Gurbani, Gurbani is the point, Gurbani is the "truth", you have to be a believer to experience what convention calls "mystical experience". Nanak calls it "anhad shabad".

Didn't Archimedes said, 'give me a point to stand on and I will move the earth' ? Isn't that what "nam simran" is ? Of course it is ! It is the metaphysical truth, meaning, the ultimate reality, the one beyond the world of maya, the one beyond the universal mind [rationality], the one beyond empirical science [sense data] the home of the soul. Gurbani is proof, meaning, point !

Guru Gobind said, ".....khoj shabad main lay", meaning, take any word from Gurbani and chew on it, "all" will be revealed !


..beautiful ! Because the Kaur and the Singh are to amplify the "music of the spheres", they are the music, they are the Gurbani, they are the song of "creation" !

Of course Truth is beyond logic, it's beyond image and form. But if this Truth seeker wants to try and make sense of part of it then so be it.

The ultimate reality is Nothing- True unconditional Love and True Love is beyond logic.

Gurbani is the Truth yes, but it's been relayed to us for us to Apply it to our lives and contemplate it, not just to read it ritualistically. We must experience it for ourselves.

 

[Harry Haller]

he realised himself to be Sat

God always knew, I do not believe Ek Onkar had a moment of realisation,