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Is It Better To Just Insulate Yourself In Your Own World?

Dalvinder Singh Grewal

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I consistently strive to learn the truth about this world. So much of what we are fed is a complete lie. The history we learn is distorted, what politicians and the media tell us is distorted, the news is distorted, what big corporations tell is distorted. We are exposed to constant lies. This world is not just, human rights are consistently violated, money and greed takes precedence over everything else, our environment is destroyed, humans are just a commodity. The T.V. teaches us who is good and who is bad, and who to hate.

When you seek this truth, you realize how hellish this existence is - how much violence we commit to one another, how much poverty there is intentionally created, how much suffering there is in the world, and how truly powerless and small we are against the huge powers that dominate and control this world.

This truth seeking, and attempt to not delude myself, has opened my eyes to these awful discoveries. And essentially, I feel more negative, more hopeless, more miserable.

I see other people - perfectly good, happy, loving, positive people - who do not bother to concern themselves with this truth seeking. They do not constantly question what it is that is really happening in this world, they do not voluntarily expose themselves to uncovering the horrors of this world. They live in their own little life - taking care of their families, having a good time, working, travelling, watching entertaining shows, maintaining some sort of spirituality, doing some seva, and not thinking so above and beyond. They just live and be in their own lives. They seem better off for it - happy, loving, positive, and perfectly good people. I admire these traits that they have and cannot seem to emulate them so well myself.

If Guru has indeed blessed us with a good, comfortable life, then is it better to just insulate yourself in your own world, and just live and be? Why concern oneself with the truth of our existence, with the tragedies of the world brought upon by our corrupt societies, if it will bring about negativity within us?


It is not that the positive or happy people isolate themselves from what you see and get disgusted. They see the world on a wider canvass. You appear to be looking on the material world which is only a part of the original world. Universe is much more than the material world; the show being presented to you daily by various communication channels; media or people around. You have to go beyond and see the vast nature instead. There are animals, plants, mountains, rivers, sea, jungles sands and much more. They add to the glory of the creation. Try to enjoy them as well; try to appreciate the creation of God as well. You will find immense enjoyment. It is not the isolation but widening your canvass which will help you to be happier and positive because you will find nothing negative in nature.
 

RD1

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@Original - There many reasons why people commit violent crimes - and many reasons that we do anything at all. Does that mean that in every case the offender had absolutely no control of themselves? As @Harry Haller pointed out, what about murder? A carefully planned out and plotted out murder, is there a tendency to taker this more seriously than a carefully planned out sexual assault? If so, isn't that a reflection of patriarchy and misogyny? No doubt that many forces are at play, however, that does not mean that in every circumstance the perpetrator had total loss of self-control.

here is one article: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/05568640903420889

..I think the question here would be the whole human psyche. I mean, why give precedence and superiority to "man" in the first place if it were to be condemned later in time ? Evolution wouldn't have advanced such inequality if it deemed unfair, no way !

Your comment here is unclear. Who gave the precedence and superiority to men? Why? Are you saying men are superior?

So you are saying the inequality and the fact that men can get away with things are strictly evolutionary based? It has nothing to do with socialization, this socially-constructed world - that we as humans have enough intelligence to change?

Evolution is a process of change. So things can certainly change.

matter of opinion !

indeed, my posts are my opinions.

1. Husband who tried to strangle his wife.
In his defence the mitigating circumstances were that the husband served as a soldier in Vietnam during the war. He was conscripted, put through intensive training designed to condition him to attack on the slightest provocation, and then plunge straight into combat. Before that time the husband's character was impeccable and violence had been completely alien to him.
2. A woman accused of trying to kill her hubby with a knife:
It emerged during mitigation that the woman at the time of the alleged offence was suffering from unusually severe pre-menstrual tension [monthly periods causing hormonal imbalance]. And that otherwise, she is generally cute as a cucumber and is known to everyone as a model of calm and restraint.

..sentence or sympathy Judge RD 1, how much of it is their fault ?

In these cases where the perpetrator did not act out voluntarily - then definitely, this requires understanding, and the individual requires assessment and treatment/rehabilitation. These are unique scenarios. However, as I have pointed out, it is erroneous to say that all sexual assaults, just like murders, are involuntary.

In addition, victims' voices need to be heard and can add valuable insights.
 

RD1

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Having seen the darkness, some are blessed to get up and rise to action, detach from the rubbish and to help lost souls get back on track. Our Gurus were the perfect examples of bringing people back to Truth, back home.

This is the leap that one has to decide to take when they have become aware, have been exposed to the darkness.....to use the darkness to inspire light..
 

RD1

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Humans by nature are not criminal, hate and disgust is not the answer. The hate factor intensifies the focuses into emotion-cultivating and rage-rallying. Don't need that, Sikhi teaches different. We could collectively contribute towards getting more resources put into preventing and dealing with crime generally. We could collectively advocate for the diversification of resources into conducive enterprises and build close community networking to foster human values. We could invest much more into research and development to eradicate some if not all of our contemporary issues. The Indus valley civilisation [meaning us] once championed such a euphoric state where crime was never heard of. And, I'm humbled to acknowledge that our moral standards are high and high will they remain.

I agree with this.

However, when we become aware of the priorities that have been set in this world today, and how hate, fear, discrimination, and division make the dollar go round, this circumstance you describe is unfortunately a dream.
 

RD1

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It is not that the positive or happy people isolate themselves from what you see and get disgusted. They see the world on a wider canvass. You appear to be looking on the material world which is only a part of the original world. Universe is much more than the material world; the show being presented to you daily by various communication channels; media or people around. You have to go beyond and see the vast nature instead. There are animals, plants, mountains, rivers, sea, jungles sands and much more. They add to the glory of the creation. Try to enjoy them as well; try to appreciate the creation of God as well. You will find immense enjoyment. It is not the isolation but widening your canvass which will help you to be happier and positive because you will find nothing negative in nature.

Excellent reminder! It is important to be aware of the realities of this worldly life. However, to prevent getting so lost, negative, and hopeless in that, it is just as important to show gratitude and appreciation to all the beauty God has placed all around us. Just observing and immersing in nature is breathtaking, it must not be forgotten and taken for granted! It can refresh us and reset us. We need to strive for balance, and not lose awareness of the beauty when exposed to the darkness. Thank you for this reminder!
 

Original

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Good morning Everyone - thank you for sharing your thoughts !

RD1 Ji - human mind is designed to "do" morality just as it is designed to do language, music, sexuality and so on. Human nature is intrinsically moral, but also, moralistic, critical and judgemental. Leading to self righteousness is the normal human condition. It is a feature of our evolutionary design. Our righteous minds made it possible for human beings to produce large cooperative groups, tribes and nations.

Criminals are not born, they become. This is a question for the social scientist to entertain and like I said, research n development within a variety of disciplines can help reshape society - make it better and open pathways to understand human behaviour.

However, the philosophical problem of free will, which I'd undertaken to examine was to question whether or not we are justified in holding these beliefs about ourselves to be true. Are we autonomous agents capable of making free choices ? And the two case scenarios which I've highlighted earlier were to illustrate how very easy it is for doubts and qualifications to assail our ordinary ideas about choice, responsibility and culpability. And, how quickly those doubts [forces n factors], once admitted, threaten to undermine the whole structure of our belief in the freedom of the will. Popular science is of the view that we are not entirely responsible for what we do; our physical natures and our environments are responsible. We do not choose our characters and the action that result from them; they are chosen for us, by forces entirely beyond our control.

If that'd be correct, then the dilemma for the moral philosopher is that, whilst on the one hand it does seem quite unfair to hold people responsible for actions that were caused by influences entirely beyond their control. And on the other, once we allow these kinds of submissions to permeate the fabric of our judicial system then there seems no reasonable point at which to stop. What next ?

Perhaps, one day we may be able to explain and engineer human behaviour to our best valued endeavours. Until then, let moral philosophy assume that human beings have at least a degree of free will. Rightfully so, because otherwise there can be no intelligible notion of responsibility. If we are not considered responsible for our actions then it makes little sense to say we acted rightly or wrongly. What weight does a moral judgement carry if we have no choice in the action we've taken ?

From a Sikh perspective, the net value of all I said is not to hate perpetrators but to understand them and find ways to make better our lives and the lives of others.

Thank you -
 

Sikhilove

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..does he ?

In 2003, the "Archives of Neurology" carried a clinical report of a middle-aged man with no history of any misdemeanour or other related illnesses that were likely to certify him uncivil. He then at some point in time began to stash child pornography and sexually started molesting a young child of eight. Following police intervention when push came to shove, it was discovered through a brain scan that the frontal area of his brain had a tumor growing, invading the septum and hypothalamus [regions known to regulate sexual behaviour] accordingly. After the removal of the tumor his sexual appetite returned to normal.

These kind of cases raises questions of free will. Case in point being, how much control do humans have and on what ?

...all in all ...enjoy what you write...thank you !

Everyone has a choice, everyone knows right from wrong. And if they claim they don't, they should seek answers. Humans use poor excuses not to practice Truth and to instead surrender to maya.
 

Sikhilove

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You are absolutely right. Sexual violence is the most deplorable act. It is using an intimate act as a weapon. The scars that it can leave on the victim are tremendous and tend to be lifelong. It can destroy the entire essence of a person. So many victims fall into severe mental illness, their entire lives are shattered. They are never the same. There needs to be more outrage, more condemnation. And, it is very powerful when men themselves stand up and speak against it, alongside women. And also, while women by far are most violated, it is important to remember that men and children can all be victims. And if anyone knows that someone else is committing such violence, it must be reported.

Sometimes I am not so sure if people pay for their horrific acts in this lifetime... There are many people that get away with committing violence. You have your big powerful people in the world that cause so much destruction, but still live safely and in wealth, with all opportunities in the world available to them.

I've had a lot of friends who have been through this as children and it is truly awful. Counselling is important as well as spirituality including truthful living which heals the soul and moves the victim away from the darkness and into strength and light.

Sadly the perpetrators often don't lose sleep over their misdeeds, but what goes around always comes around whether in this lifetime, others or after death. Karam is always served, and those who think they've gotten away with their misdeeds are the biggest fools and often are not prepared when karam is finally served.
 

Sikhilove

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By heaven, I mean the "ultimate heaven" - Waheguru. Not the "worldly" heaven. I hope that being exposed to this earthly hell, can encourage me more to find God within, and become closer and closer to the One.

It's the age, Kalyug that's hell, not the earth realm. Earth is a paradise, it is stunning.

Kalyug= when the vast the majority of the inhabitants of a planet practice a hellish psychology. Peoples psychology makes it hell.

Satyug= where the vast majority of a realm practice Truth.

Be in chardi kala, it only takes one star to light up the sky :)
 

Original

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Similarily,
There many reasons why people commit violent crimes
..yes !

and many reasons that we do anything at all
..yes, we do all we can to protect the innocent from harm, hence law n order !
Does that mean that in every case the offender had absolutely no control of themselves?
..no, not absolutely !

A carefully planned out and plotted out murder, is there a tendency to taker this more seriously than a carefully planned out sexual assault?
no, a crime is a crime ! to find the accused guilty intent tests vary in degree not in principle.
If so, isn't that a reflection of patriarchy and misogyny?
lol....not on planet earth !

No doubt that many forces are at play, however, that does not mean that in every circumstance the perpetrator had total loss of self-control.
...correct !

Your comment here is unclear. Who gave the precedence and superiority to men? Why? Are you saying men are superior?

So you are saying the inequality and the fact that men can get away with things are strictly evolutionary based? It has nothing to do with socialization, this socially-constructed world - that we as humans have enough intelligence to change?
..this was in view of the widespread ignorance and rejection of a sociological perspective when people think about human behaviour. Take the knife for example, quite a useful tool with many functions; only when it's abused [used as a weapon] does its invention get questioned, but otherwise, wow, what an invention ! If evolution had stopped to think of the potential abuse, do you think it would've allowed it to go past the invention stage ? No ! Similarly, if Singh has been the King in the past, evolution have allowed it for very good reasons. The pursuit of understanding cannot be held responsible for the misdemeanour of the few nor should it be impeded to reform society.
Evolution is a process of change. So things can certainly change.

...agree 101% !

Take care -
 
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Original

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What happened to him?
..sorry H, I'm unable to answer because the case above was one that rendered concrete the "issue" of free will. Did the man have free will ? Was he responsible for his behaviour ? Can tumour usurp one's free will ? And, since this was philosophical and not legal, I'm unable to comment at present [topic for another day in a another thread perhaps].

Thank you -
 

RD1

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Everyone has a choice, everyone knows right from wrong. And if they claim they don't, they should seek answers. Humans use poor excuses not to practice Truth and to instead surrender to maya.

There are definitely certain people, such as those that develop brain tumors or a mental illness, or sustain a brain injury, who literally may no longer know the difference between right and wrong. In these particular scenarios, these individuals are not making excuses. If the part of one's brain that allows you to determine right from wrong is now damaged, then how can we expect that person to know the difference, to function normally? Our brains control everything about us. And these people may also not have the brain capacity to seek answers. If a part of one's heart is damaged, would be expect their heart to function normally? Same goes for people who have some sort of brain disease.

These particular people do need compassion, or at least understanding. They need medical/psychiatric treatment and rehabilitation - and even with that some of them may not ever get better. In those cases, if they are a threat to others, they need to be institutionalized. People with mental illness and such already face a lot of stigma, and it is important to not add to that, but to educate oneself about their situation, so we can understand.

Not everyone who acts wrongly has a brain injury or mental illness, but the ones that do, their situations do need to be looked at differently.
 

RD1

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If evolution had stopped to think of the potential abuse, do you think it would've allowed it to go past the invention stage

Evolution does not think. Whatever traits/genes allow a species to adapt, thrive, and perpetuate, will survive.
 

Original

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Has there ever been a time when this actually existed? From all we know from history up to today, it seems Kalyug has been in dominance, unfortunately.
..yes, it has always existed and still does! Nanak says, "..ad sach, jugad sach, habi sach, Nanak hosi vi sach [SGGSJ, 1]. Meaning, truth was in the beginning, truth was in every age, the same truth is here today and the same truth will always be. In other words, eternity. The question is, finding it, accepting it and practicing it. If you could do that, guess what you'll have ? Satyug ! and, it is to that end SIKH, an ideal human being.

Read up Thomas More's "Utophia" to get an idea of the ideal society. Such a state is not all fictional, there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary and suggestive that the "Indus Valley Civilisation" [pre Aryan invasion, meaning, free from western contamination] met all the conditions to have found such a social organisation where there was, abundance, freedom and peace.

From a religious perspective, given sat [truth] is eternal and can be had at anytime the essential toolkit required is "belief n practice". And, yes, that is exactly what Sikhi is, a society within a society where there is abundance, freedom and peace, only if you believe n practice. Intellectual discussions could be had until the cows come home. All religions are moralising [meaning, do good, eat good, sleep good n experience good], they all talk of the one truth [God], Nanak goes beyond; he says, "don't talk about it, live it - let me show you how ". Hence, Khalsa !
Hmm I am not sure if you understand the role that patriarchy and misogyny play a role in sexual violence towards women and "rape culture" - which is live and well.
...maybe, maybe not ! I'm a Guru's Sikh and accept His Will and know that the land of the five-alive is particular and unique. And that justice and decency are not carried in books on board western institutions, but in the hearts of humans, and it is for that reason the admiralty is always sought to anoint its Sikhs from the ranks of individuals that have developed their conscience and are able to regulate it harmoniously, demonstrating spiritual wisdom and intellectual supremacy. Patriarchy and misogyny are social concepts of the western civilisations, not to say, they are entirely regional, but closer examination will reveal otherwise.

Note: I'm not intimating gender divisions nor am I advocating male supremacy, I'm talking about truth [satnam]. Accept the world as it is and move on to realise the "truth" within and not without. The battle is not with the world and how unjust everything is, the battle is with the self in accepting, "OMG, how true, what next" and let the power of Waheguru show you the world within.
Evolution does not think. Whatever traits/genes allow a species to adapt, thrive, and perpetuate, will survive.
....agree wholly solely, hence, said guru ji, 'it is not the strongest, nor the intelligent but the one most responsive to accept change, accept therefore O foolish manmukh the way of the gurmukh'.

Much obliged - bhul chuk maff !
 

RD1

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..yes, it has always existed and still does! Nanak says, "..ad sach, jugad sach, habi sach, Nanak hosi vi sach [SGGSJ, 1]. Meaning, truth was in the beginning, truth was in every age, the same truth is here today and the same truth will always be. In other words, eternity. The question is, finding it, accepting it and practicing it. If you could do that, guess what you'll have ? Satyug ! and, it is to that end SIKH, an ideal human being.

Read up Thomas More's "Utophia" to get an idea of the ideal society. Such a state is not all fictional, there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary and suggestive that the "Indus Valley Civilisation" [pre Aryan invasion, meaning, free from western contamination] met all the conditions to have found such a social organisation where there was, abundance, freedom and peace.

From a religious perspective, given sat [truth] is eternal and can be had at anytime the essential toolkit required is "belief n practice". And, yes, that is exactly what Sikhi is, a society within a society where there is abundance, freedom and peace, only if you believe n practice. Intellectual discussions could be had until the cows come home. All religions are moralising [meaning, do good, eat good, sleep good n experience good], they all talk of the one truth [God], Nanak goes beyond; he says, "don't talk about it, live it - let me show you how ". Hence, Khalsa !

Insightful

...maybe, maybe not ! I'm a Guru's Sikh and accept His Will and know that the land of the five-alive is particular and unique. And that justice and decency are not carried in books on board western institutions, but in the hearts of humans, and it is for that reason the admiralty is always sought to anoint its Sikhs from the ranks of individuals that have developed their conscience and are able to regulate it harmoniously, demonstrating spiritual wisdom and intellectual supremacy. Patriarchy and misogyny are social concepts of the western civilisations, not to say, they are entirely regional, but closer examination will reveal otherwise.

Note: I'm not intimating gender divisions nor am I advocating male supremacy, I'm talking about truth [satnam]. Accept the world as it is and move on to realise the "truth" within and not without. The battle is not with the world and how unjust everything is, the battle is with the self in accepting, "OMG, how true, what next" and let the power of Waheguru show you the world within.

Patriarchy and misogyny are not simply social concepts of the western civilisations. Label it what you may, it does not take away from its existence. The fact that there still is a wage gap between men and women performing the same work, the fact that female infanticide exists, the fact that female child marriage exists, the fact that globally women have less access to education, the fact that "honor killings" exist - all reflect patriarchy and misogyny.

As Sikhs, we are to seek the truth and accept it - because through acceptance we can better understand, and then determine what to make of what we have learned. The Gurus did not ask us to simply find and accept the truth, and then sit idly by. We are not to only find the world within - we are to balance our spiritual and worldy lives. Sikhs are encouraged to be an active part of their communities, and actively stand against any and all social injustices - including patriarchy and misogyny.
 
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Original

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Good morning All - hope you're well !

RD1 Ji -

You've left the juicy bits out [above, #57], revisit if you like ! I've intimated that I've no axe to grind, you obviously have; might not you consider discussing social sentiments away from religious arenas? I mean your suffragettes, cause n concerns are legitimate and debate-worthy, requiring as it were, intellectual examinations. A dialectical forum designated specifically to that end, would in my opinion, be most appropriate to ascertain whether social concepts such as patriarchy and misogyny, have intrinsic values, that when fully thrashed would yield spiritual dividends; for isn't that, as I'm led to believe [Sikh] the true activity of the soul in accord with perfect virtue [meaning truth, satnam] ? Not to say, it can't be or shouldn't be entertained here in disguise, indeed it could if it is to help you reach the summit of the intellectual realm and culminate into coherent knowledge of the good, great and the beautiful God of Nanak. if not, then there is little point in pursuing such fruitless excursions, don't you think ?

The real reason for saying what I've said above is that, yes you're right RD1, but guess what ? Sikhism is not a social theory and doesn't seek to address social, economical and political calamites, on the contrary, is a system of belief or resolution if you like, that seeks to propagate metaphysical truths. It is indeed difficult to reconcile with why so many injustices, unexplained horrors, and life's unfair wheeling n dealing continue to permeate every fibre of social organism with no plausible explanations, no justifiable resolutions and God does nothing about it ? Nanak accepts this and thus, "..nanak dukhyia sub sansar" [SGGSJ, 953], meaning, this is the imperfect and suffering world and the wannabe perfect you bang in the middle. What next ? Well, he offers as a result, Sikhism, an ethical theory if you like, to take away not the world horrors and injustices, but you from the midst of it all.

How ?

The Sikh doctrine of karm [deed/thought] and dharm [religion or the righteous mind] are the perfect conceptual tools to hammer home the message WHY everything is, the way it is !

Given that all the calamities and injustices are present, it is difficult, but not impossible to imagine that life is fair. Consider if you will for a moment, that life is fair and it sourced from an orderly perfect being [katra purakh]. Is it possible then that life appears unfair because we are not seeing the completeness of life and that, what is otherwise infinite we are trying to comprehend with a mind that is finite ? Could our limited view of existence be the reason why we fail to see how, and why everything is the way it is ?. Science deem it so, and calls mind's capacity to know it all as, "inconceivable".

If that`d be correct, then surely, if we are to understand how justice operates in the world, we must first study life's big picture. We cannot examine life only from the empirical point of world view, we have to know the spiritual human too, don't we ?. Nanak thinks so and affirms that, where other species are shaped by evolution, humanity must shape its own. And, with candidates like you aren't we heading the right way ? And, aren't you the proof in the pudding to confirm Nanak's affirmation ?

As human beings, we are in a unique position to "understand" the creator and creation. We have the capacity to understand the subtle laws that govern the world. With this knowledge, we make choices that will lead towards a better world view and the world in general, be more harmonious and happy and that today is the result of our yesterdays. Let us therefore make our today's better to effect our tomorrows, law of cause n effect as the scientist would call it, law of karma as KaurSingh would believe it !

In conclusion, yes, the social human being did {censored}-up big time because his then bird brain is now an average kharbuja [melon] and things are on the mend, hence, RD1 Ji !

Good day !
 

RD1

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've intimated that I've no axe to grind, you obviously have; might not you consider discussing social sentiments away from religious arenas

Hmm I have no axe to grind. My original post was not so related to what this thread has evolved into, I have just gone with that flow. I have enjoyed the critical discussions which have prompted me to reflect on my beliefs, and see them more from a Sikhi perspective.

Sikhism is not a social theory and doesn't seek to address social, economical and political calamites, on the contrary, is a system of belief or resolution if you like, that seeks to propagate metaphysical truths.

As I indicated in my previous post - Sikhism promotes being active in one's community. Sikhism cannot be completely separated from social, economical, and political calamities - not at all. Why did the Gurus set up langar? Why did they stand against sati? Why did Guru Har Gobind go into battle? Why did Guru Tegh Bahadur sacrifice himself to protect Hindus? The Gurus did not only seek truth - then find inner peace - and then stop right there. No way. They took their discovered truths and then actually applied them to their worldy lives. The Gurus did not move away from the social, economical, and political calamities around them, but did just the opposite - used their knowledge of truth - the Oneness in all - and actively worked to promote social justice - and love for the One as a result! They directly injected themselves into the social, economical, and political calamities around them!

This is a huge tenant of Sikhism! Miri Piri - balancing spiritual and temporal lives.

Well, he offers as a result, Sikhism, an ethical theory if you like, to take away not the world horrors and injustices, but you from the midst of it all.

Sikhism, as you have alluded does, does indeed promote one to be unaffected from what is going on in the world. However, it also fully promotes one to stand with those that are facing any type of injustice - social, economical, and political - to not just sit idly by, and not to retreat away from the world.

Given that all the calamities and injustices are present, it is difficult, but not impossible to imagine that life is fair. Consider if you will for a moment, that life is fair and it sourced from an orderly perfect being [katra purakh]. Is it possible then that life appears unfair because we are not seeing the completeness of life and that, what is otherwise infinite we are trying to comprehend with a mind that is finite ? Could our limited view of existence be the reason why we fail to see how, and why everything is the way it is ?. Science deem it so, and calls mind's capacity to know it all as, "inconceivable".

I do not spend much time contemplating if life is fair or unfair. Whatever God does, that is what is meant to be. However, that in no way means we just accept injustice, cruelty, and violence towards our fellow beings who all carry a piece of the divine. As I have articulated, Sikhism quite strongly emphasis standing against injustice in our worldly lives, and helping the less fortunate.

As human beings, we are in a unique position to "understand" the creator and creation. We have the capacity to understand the subtle laws that govern the world. With this knowledge, we make choices that will lead towards a better world view and the world in general, be more harmonious and happy and that today is the result of our yesterdays. Let us therefore make our today's better to effect our tomorrows, law of cause n effect as the scientist would call it, law of karma as KaurSingh would believe it !

Completely agree!
Perhaps our apparent "disagreements" are simply misunderstandings! This quote of yours puts us on the same page!
 
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