Janam Sakhi Are True Events

[kharkoo4life]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

The next argument about the fact that one guru did something which has been termed a miracle and then why did the other gurus not use miracles to prevent their own martyrdom, this is about perception when guru arjan dev ji took shaheedi he did so to set a stone of martyrdom in sikhism this is why he responded to mian mir that "please do not stop my execution you laid the foundation stone of harimandar and i am going to lay the foundation stone of martyrdom", their were political reasons for why the gurus carried out what they did, it is the will of god that guru showed the power of naam through what people today term as miracles and it is through the power of naam that guru performed the sacrifice of martyrdom.

With all due respect veer ji, i agree with you, what the average person views as miracles are merely an extension of those powers of God which man does not fully understand or has become familiar with. And yes, these "miracles" are indeed possible for nothing is impossible when we realize that Gods Grace is behind all actions.

Hwever the point i was making was that regardless a miracle being possible or not, no guru would ever dare to partake in the display of any such power, or shuktee, regardless what the reasoning or motive was. Why would Guru Nanak try to stop a boulder with his bare hand? Cuz he was afraid of dying? He wanted to show ppl the power of Naam? Was he not willing to live life by the same means as the everage person and use the same means in every aspect of his life, including confronting danger?

On the other hand, why would guru gobind singh fight four wars with his bare hands, let thousands of his fellow singhs and singhnees be killed if he could simply excercise the power of naam and dispell all the attacks? DId he not posses the power of naam? If guru nanak was not willing to let himself get injured or die at the hands of a rock why would guru gobind singh be willing to not only let himself die but thousands of other ppl die along with him if he cud of prevented it?

The reason is that Guru Gobind SIngh, regardless of the powers he possessed, wanted to show that all men should live by the same means (no matter how much shukthee they may acquire thru naam). That is why every guru, ate, slept, fought with their own bare hands like any average human being. To show humanity that every man and woman is capable of the same things they did so long as they put full faith in the One Creator. No guru would ever do something which would contradict the actions or teachings of another guru.

If we argue that the guru wanted to show the power of naam by display of what we call miracles, then why was ram rai dispelled from the panth for the use of these same powers when he shwed them to the emperor? Because the Guru watned every sikh to realize that no sikh is allowed to excercise of any of thse powers (ridhee sidhees) regardless if he acquires them. A sikh shall always live byt he same simple means that all other men live as. And that is thru honest hard effort.

 

[ISDhillon]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

Satsriakal Kharkoo Ji

“Why would Guru Nanak try to stop a boulder with his bare hand? Cuz he was afraid of dying? He wanted to show ppl the power of Naam? Was he not willing to live life by the same means as the everage person and use the same means in every aspect of his life, including confronting danger?”

This all happened by divine hukum of akal purakh we should not try to second guess the mind of our gurus, the parable shows how the valli khandari was humbled when he saw the power and then he discovered the truth that he had been living his whole life as a lie. Also if I were to second guress the mind of the guru I would not say the event never happened I would say the guru had a lot more work to do in the body of nanak before the jot was passed to angad, but again I am not one to speculate because its poitless I accept the traditional view whole heartedly I also know that if guru tegh bahadar did not give his shoulder to makkan shahs boat no one would have known who the true guru was in a village of pretenders, how do you explain that one?, and this guru also attained martyrdom.

You then make a statement then answer it yourself, the guru is already the purpose of sikhi which is self-realisation therefore has the power of naam, but the ordinary sikh does not but with devotion will achieve with guru kirpa, this is the reason why he organised a temporal body known as khalsa to conduct and deal with people as all human beings would, he did not do it because he thought it was outrageous to show miracles, you yourself say that the guru created the panth so they could behave as ordinary human beings but this does not mean the guru did not have shakti, plenty of sant mahapurash have shown takht of akal with guru kirpa, lets stopping calling it a miracle.

Ram rai was not expelled for showing a miracle he was expelled for saying "mitti baimaan ki" instead of "mitti mussalmaan ki" in the moghul court, but I know atal rai was admonished for bringing his friend mohan back to life because he was bit by a snake, then baba atal rai committed suicide and guru ji built a tower in his honour it is a hexagonal shaped building at harimander. Its funny you believe that ram rai was expelled for showing miracle but guru ji couldn’t have shown a miracle?, guruji can show a miracle only guru can as akal purakh is guiding guru but dhirmalias were occultist the 2 are different, my gurus miracles are apart of divine order not free choice.

Gurfateh!

indy

 

[S|kH]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

Satsriakal Kharkoo Ji

“Why would Guru Nanak try to stop a boulder with his bare hand? Cuz he was afraid of dying? He wanted to show ppl the power of Naam? Was he not willing to live life by the same means as the everage person and use the same means in every aspect of his life, including confronting danger?”

This all happened by divine hukum of akal purakh we should not try to second guess the mind of our gurus, the parable shows how the valli khandari was humbled when he saw the power and then he discovered the truth that he had been living his whole life as a lie. Also if I were to second guress the mind of the guru I would not say the event never happened I would say the guru had a lot more work to do in the body of nanak before the jot was passed to angad, but again I am not one to speculate because its poitless I accept the traditional view whole heartedly I also know that if guru tegh bahadar did not give his shoulder to makkan shahs boat no one would have known who the true guru was in a village of pretenders, how do you explain that one?, and this guru also attained martyrdom.

You then make a statement then answer it yourself, the guru is already the purpose of sikhi which is self-realisation therefore has the power of naam, but the ordinary sikh does not but with devotion will achieve with guru kirpa, this is the reason why he organised a temporal body known as khalsa to conduct and deal with people as all human beings would, he did not do it because he thought it was outrageous to show miracles, you yourself say that the guru created the panth so they could behave as ordinary human beings but this does not mean the guru did not have shakti, plenty of sant mahapurash have shown takht of akal with guru kirpa, lets stopping calling it a miracle.

Ram rai was not expelled for showing a miracle he was expelled for saying "mitti baimaan ki" instead of "mitti mussalmaan ki" in the moghul court, but I know atal rai was admonished for bringing his friend mohan back to life because he was bit by a snake, then baba atal rai committed suicide and guru ji built a tower in his honour it is a hexagonal shaped building at harimander. Its funny you believe that ram rai was expelled for showing miracle but guru ji couldn’t have shown a miracle?, guruji can show a miracle only guru can as akal purakh is guiding guru but dhirmalias were occultist the 2 are different, my gurus miracles are apart of divine order not free choice.

Gurfateh!

indy

Miracles can't happen, specifically the ones you speak of. These go against the nature of science. Do not get faith and logic twisted.

Also, why can't we question the minds of the gurus ? I think thats ont of the key points in learning how the gurus minds worked -- is by questioning why they did what they did. I question them all the time, and sometimes even disagree -- am I bad human or sikh?

Is that not what the Gurus wanted...for them to lay a foundational belief system and then we build off it by ourselves?

No one brought anyone back alive from the dead. No one stopped a huge boulder with one hand. No one fought a war while holding their head in their hand. These are all myths. Read science, read logic...these things go against basic laws of life.

No one is above these laws of life, no matter how "divine" or "big" other people think you are.

One of the things I love about Sikhi is that the Gurus were normal human beings, there were not superhuman or divine. They were just extraordinary in thought and action. A turn-off for me is when people like to claim the gurus were like Christ, or even that Christ was so extraordinary, so superhuman, he was resurrected from the dead.

I don't understand how anyone thats alive in 2006 can believe such stories. But, to each their own.

 

[kharkoo4life]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

Fateh,

If you wish to believe that the gurus engaged in performane of miracles or display of supernatural shakti for whatever reasons they deemed necessary, then that is a choice you are entitled to. But i for one do not view the gurus as superhuman who needed to display extraordinary powers for any reason whatsoever.

For me, the fact that they were able to live the virtuous lives of highest character given the intense obstacles and hardships they had to face is a miracle enough in it self. The fact they lived the same life as you and me, using the same means as you and me yet still were able to become 'one with god' is enough inspiration. I do not see the need of any miracle laced stories to prove to me what great men the gurus were.

The "traditional views" you talk for mostly originate from sakhis and stories written much after the demise of the gurus. In most cases these stories are filled with brahmincal influences, and innumberable concepts, idead which go completely against the very fundamental tenets of gurmat. To accept them as authentic proof of actual events simpply cuz of tradition or past generations taught us about them or believed in them would be tantamount to blind faith. SIkhi on the other hand runs completely on the other end of the spectrum and is founded on logical reasoning and questioning.

One cannot be a student unless one is willing to learn, and one cannot learn unless they have questions which they are willing to ask. To question eevents in the gurus life is not a sin, nor is it a show of disrespect. If anything, simply accepting any story one conjures up about the gurus as being true, simply cuz the gurus name is used in it, or some sant or baba told it in some katha would be a real show if disregard for the true sanctity and values that the gurus stood for.

Indeed sikhi should be founded on a strong commitmment and faith in the guru, but this faith should not be blind. It should be developed on a ground of logical reasoning and discerning intellect. Otherwise the sikhi we follow and teach others will quickly become (as it already is in many cases) no different then the heavily diluted mytholigical story driven hindu dharam.

 

[ISDhillon]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

The last 2 responses show a myopic understanding of sikhism and its doctrine, yes you can presume what the guru thought but you cannot rule out the miraculous happenings, the reason why you all reject it today is because you are not capable of doing the same, i couldnt care less whether it was 2050 the simple fact remains that the guru was not operating from their maan the were one with god all times and therefore sat kartar flowed with gods hukum whenever the need arises. Just because science and logic has failed to account for my guru and other transcendetal phenomenon does not mean i am going to let go of my gurus hand and accept the law of science, NO WAY!!!!, All the sakhis are true and if you fear brahmanism they you need to do some naam simran because you are being directed by panj chor.

Their are gurdwaras all over the world in far off places where such divine happenings took place are these all myths or conspiracies, wake up everybody you are being consumed by atheist scientific culture and dont even realise it. The gurus were allpowerfull and we as sikhs can also be allpowerful but that should never be our premise for bhagti.

and what about bhai gurdas is he a liar:

Vaar 1 Pauri 32 At Mecca
bwbw iPr m`ky gXw nIl bsqR Dwry bnvwrI]
Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
baabaa fir maakae gayaa neel basathr dhhaarae banavaaree||
Line 1

Awsw h`Q ikqwb k`C kUjw bWg mus`lw DwrI]
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.
aasaa haathh kithaab kaashh koojaa baang musaalaa dhhaaree||
Line 2

bYTw jwie msIq ivc ijQy hwjI h`j gujwrI]
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.
baithaa jaae maseeth vich jithhae haajee haaj gujaaree||
Line 3

jW bwbw su`qw rwq nUM v`l mihrwby pWie pswrI]
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,
jaan baabaa suthaa raath noon vaal mehiraabae paane pasaaree||
Line 4

jIvn mwrI lq dI kyVHw suqw ku&r ku&wrI]
the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.
jeevan maaree lath dhee kaerrhaa suthaa kur kuaaree||
Line 5

lqW vl ^udwie dy ikauNkr pieAw hoie bjgwrI]
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.
lathaan val khhudhaae dhae kiounakar paeiaa hoe bajagaaree||
Line 6

tMgoN pkV GsIitAw iPirAw m`kw klw idKwrI]
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.
ttangon pakarr ghaseettiaa firiaa maakaa kalaa dhikhaaree||
Line 7

hoie hYrwn kryn juhwrI ]óò]
All got surprised and they all bowed.
hoe hairaan karaen juhaaree ||aa||

 

[kharkoo4life]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

The last 2 responses show a myopic understanding of sikhism and its doctrine, yes you can presume what the guru thought but you cannot rule out the miraculous happenings, the reason why you all reject it today is because you are not capable of doing the same,

My ground for rejecting something isnt so self centered that if i cant do it, or dont undertand it that it cant be true. I reject the display of miracles by the gurus becaue they go against the fundamental tenets of gurmat.

Also, if the previous two posts represent a myopic understaning of sikhi, then i must say that one who blindly clings to 2nd and 3rd hand accounts of stories about the gurus lives and alleged performance of miracles despite its being compeltely contrary to sikhi sidhaant would be a reprentation of brahmincal influenced understanding of sikhi.

Just because science and logic has failed to account for my guru and other transcendetal phenomenon does not mean i am going to let go of my gurus hand and accept the law of science, NO WAY!!!!,

No one is asking you to let go of the gurus hand. No one is asking u to disregard SGGS and go bow to a science textbook either. I have simply stated that when trying to understand the guru we should use an approach based on reasoning and discerning intellect, not one based on blind faith.

hwir pirE suAwmI kY duAwrY dIjY buiD ibbykw ] rhwau ]I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect

Everday we make a similar request in our ardaas, sikha nu sikhi dhaan, kes dhaan, rehit dhaan, bibek dhaan... what use is it asking for this bibek budhi if we are not gonna use it or are afraid that by using it we are questioning our faith in the guru? If anything, one who follows the guru without any questions in their mind (in beginning at least) would be tantamount to living by blind faith. This is how the brahmnis got the average person to follow them for hundreds of years. But the guru never employed such a strategy. They always taught thru reason and logic. It was thru this open engaging discourse that many sadhus, pirs, yogis, etc who were well versed and extremely intellectual ppl came to realize that 'hey what guru nanak says makes sense' and became his followers. They didnt simply jus look at him and magically say we wanna follow u.

All the sakhis are true and if you fear brahmanism they you need to do some naam simran because you are being directed by panj chor.

I do not fear brahmanism but am definitely worried about its every growing influence on the sikh panth. Everywehre you look, sikhs are engrossed in blind rituals, ceremonies, karam kaand and forgetting the true message of gurabni. Which true lover of sikhi would not be worried bout this and wish to put a halt to this and restore sikhi to its true form?

As for doing naam simran, thank u for the suggestion, but might i also suggest perhaps you do some study of what naam simran is. Naam simran is not some sort of magical mantar one recites which makes one spiritual and fight off the five vices (tho most babay n sants will tell u otherwise bout naam simran). Simran means to remember god, and naam is a representation of all His Divine Virtues. Thus naam simran is actually a lifestyle, or way of living, where one is continually in remembrance of God and his virtues at all times in all situations and tries to emobdy those same virtues in every thought, word and deed of his own.

Their are gurdwaras all over the world in far off places where such divine happenings took place are these all myths or conspiracies, wake up everybody you are being consumed by atheist scientific culture and dont even realise it.

Just because someone tells a story of some event somewhere does not make it true. And how many ppl say this story is true doesnt effect the validity of its truth either. Thousands of ppl talk of ufo's everyday, of seeing them, does this make ufos a reality?

I always find it funny that babay, sants, or mahapursh have no trouble recalling stories of miraculous happenings in india, or other poor villages around the world, or how they themselves saw or displayed these powers but when they come to western countries and are confronted with ppl who wish to see proof or evidence of their alleged stories they suddenly have none but mere verbal testimony. Why is it that no miracles happen here on western soil (uk, canada, us). They say they got these powers or shakti thru naam simran so does thsi shakthi disappear as soon as they board the airplane? Or does it not work in certain logitudes and lattitudes? Making up stories and spreading their grandeur is the fastest and easiest way to create followers. And in no religion is this being exploited more than in Sikhi.

The gurus were allpowerfull and we as sikhs can also be allpowerful but that should never be our premise for bhagti.

I agree gurus were all powerful (BUT NOT AS PoWERFUL AS GOD) and sikhs too can be as powerful as guru (but again not as powerful as god). For to be as powerful as god would make one equal to god and this would go against the very first words of SGGS, IK Onkar. There is only one God with no equal.

Also u state that becoming all powerful shouldnt be the premise of our bhagtee, why do u make such a statement? Are u agreeing that doing bhagtee in desire of these pwers would make one egotistical? And if so, wouldnt displaying these pwers once acquired also be a display of similar ego? How then can u say that the gurus would engage in display of these powers? If on the one hand it is not the premise of bhagtee, but on other hand its ok to use it if acquired it doesnt make any sense.

With regards to ur refernce of Bhai GUrdas ji, you could simply have used one of the countless stories within SGGS itself, for it is full of references to many mythological stories from hindu dharam. If u wish to believe them as being true it is ur choice. But i for one, do not view gurbani as textbook of historical accounts. I see it as living poetry which uses metaphors and analogies (be it from everyday events, common examples, or old fables n stories) to drive home deeper concepts and ideas. Rather than geting fixated on the metaphors and stories we should try and udnerstand what the message is behind them. But at the same time it is important to realize that they are merely metaphors, and if we make them anything more than metaphors and try to prove them as true events, then the whole point and message of the shabad will be lost.

 

[ISDhillon]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

:u):

“If anything, one who follows the guru without any questions in their mind (in beginning at least) would be tantamount to living by blind faith”

A wise man once said it is ok to have blind faith for it is the religion which has the vision, so the mind is actually blind, and anyway guru wants you to surrender to his message not refute it eg, je tu prem killen ka chaau sir tal talli galli mere avauh”,

“I reject the display of miracles by the gurus becaue they go against the fundamental tenets of gurmat.”

Gurmat says that all mracles are from naam therefore what you see in the guru is a product of naam its not his fault that he has power of naam why do you presume he wants to impress people he is just doing his job. Look:

3 BairaarheeGuru Ram Das​

iriD buiD isiD suK pwvih Bju gurmiq hir rwm rwm ]1] rhwau ]
Riches, wisdom, supernatural spiritual powers and peace are obtained, by vibrating, meditating on the Lord God, under Guru's Instruction. ||1||Pause||



Look when gurgaddi was passed to guru angad dev ji supernatural powers were passed also:


20. Page1392 Line 18 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das: Kal

iqqu nwim risku nwnku lhxw QipE jyn sRb isDI ]
thith naam rasik naanak lehanaa thhapiou jaen srab sidhhee ||
Nanak delighted in the Naam; He established Lehnaa as Guru, who was imbued with all supernatural spiritual powers.

Not everything that we can see is the measure of existence in this regard look what gurmat says about intellect:

• Page50 Line 5 Raag Sriraag: Guru Arjan Devjo dIsY so ivxsxw mn kI miq iqAwgu ]1] rhwau ]
  jo dheesai so vinasanaa man kee math thiaag ||1|| rehaao || Whatever is seen, shall pass away. Abandon the intellectualizations of your mind. ||1||Pause||

Intellect is only awakened through naam:

• Page92 Line 4 Raag Sriraag: Saint KabiraupjY shju igAwn miq jwgY ]
  oupajai sehaj giaan math jaagai || Intuitive peace and poise well up within, and the intellect is awakened to spiritual wisdom.

So in reality gurmat does not say that janamsakhis are untrue because they are not miracles they are well within the capability of those who have power of naam so my guru is represented by fair account in janamsakhis in full respect of gurmat.

“They didnt simply jus look at him and magically say we wanna follow u.”

this where you and me differ on an intellectual level, I believe that we don’t have to understand the words of bani because they are for your soul and that is why people took to the gurus because the gurus words awakened the soul within them, but it is good to understand the words if you want to but we should not make that the rule of law because that is your opinion. Bani is god.

“Which true lover of sikhi would not be worried bout this and wish to put a halt to this and restore sikhi to its true form?”

sikhi is about transcending duality we cannot do this if we keep trying because ultimately you just need to do what you as an individual have to do as a sikh and when you are saved you will save those around you, it starts with you no one is stopping your sikhi it is just fear in you.

“As for doing naam simran, thank u for the suggestion, but might i also suggest perhaps you do some study of what naam simran is. Naam simran is not some sort of magical mantar one recites which makes one spiritual and fight off the five vices”

this is your personal opinion you are not the guru everyone has their own sikhi there is not one way our practices are not rigid if I have learned from bani that I can become spiritual and fight of the 5 vices then that’s my progress if you achieved something more then you are free to dwell In it but I disagree, can you from now on back up your comments from gurbani I will too:

30. Page32 Line 1 Raag Sriraag: Guru Amar Das

AMDI nwmu n cyqeI sB bwDI jmkwil ]
andhhee naam n chaethee sabh baadhhee jamakaal ||
The spiritually blind do not even think of the Naam; they are all bound and gagged by the Messenger of Death.

45. Page59 Line 8 Raag Sriraag: Guru Nanak Dev

igAwnu iDAwnu Duin jwxIAY AkQu khwvY soie ]
giaan dhhiaan dhhun jaaneeai akathh kehaavai soe ||
Know that from the vibration of the Word, we obtain spiritual wisdom and meditation. Through it, we speak the Unspoken.



59. Page94 Line 4 Raag Maajh: Guru Ram Das

guir pUrY hir nwm isiD pweI ko ivrlw gurmiq clY jIau ]1]
gur poorai har naam sidhh paaee ko viralaa guramath chalai jeeo ||1||
The Perfect Guru has attained spiritual perfection in the Name of the Lord. How rare are those who follow the Guru's Teachings. ||1||

and there are many more quotes.
I am not saying that showing powers would make someone egotistical I never said that, I said that even though the powers come to bhagat we should never want anything but if when attuned to god his hukum asks for power to be used then it is by his order it has nothing to do with ego don’t twist my words. I also believe that mool means divine essence and we all have 1 divine essence, but there is only one god but we are the same quality of god in essence but not god at the same time and yes we have the same power as god, “man to jot saroop hai apna mool pachaan” we then use formula of mool which is mool mantar to discover our own ik onkar, don’t try to use your personal opinion of Sikhism as being exclusive yours is but a personal opinion as is mine.

I don’t know about the fake babas but my gurus weren’t fake and they were capable and did carry out such “miracles” people believed then but with time faith becomes diluted and some people stop believeing and start having a pick and choose sikhi.

“If u wish to believe them as being true it is ur choice.”

It is also your choice to reject the truth as it is in plain language rather than look for hidden meanings I accept the gurus message as it is and for me bani is not poetry but something which is supernatural and it guides my spirit even when I do not understand the meaning. We are both approaching the faith from different perspectives, I believe it is ok to understand bani to mould your life for the greater good of societal reform but that is not the premise of bani, it is for the soul and self-realisation. But you can follow your sikhi the way you want and I will too.

Good day

Isdhillon

 

[drkhalsa]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

Dear Khalsa ji

I agree with Indy ji as per my current understanding

Miracles are possible as all of them are from akal himself

Journey of any quest is from known to unknown and the thing that cause progression is Creativity

Laws of science are the known facts but there was a time when they were unknown facts but creativity of some sciectist/philosopher lead to it and it become known

Akal is the only creative force and leads to new scientific laws and this will continue in future as well just like flying in air was miracle few centuries ago but it is scientific law now

Same is true for miracles . and akal is not bound by Scientific laws but our understanding is .



Jatinder Singh

 

[kharkoo4life]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

The contention is not whether "miracles" can or can not happen. God is infinite and His powers are infinite as well. For one whose powers are so feeble (us humans) in comparison to the Creator it would be pointless to argue whether miracles can or cannot happen. It would be akin to trying to describe and quantify all of Gods attributes -- a futile endevour from any approach.

The whole discussion (or at least my point) was around the fact whether the gurus would ever voluntarily engage in the display of these miracles to others. The gurus always stressed the need for man to live by the Hukam of Waheguru. That is why in in so many stories we hear of average folk goin to sadhus, yogis etc to fulfill their wishes (i.e. make rain fall when their fields were in prolongued drought). IN each case the guru would stress to the people why go to these men to get ur wishes filled, instead keep faith in the One Creator and accept all that He does as good. In effect, the gurus openly rejected the use of any special powers (ridhis sidhis). So why then would they for their own individual purposes, whatever they may have been, themselves went against their own philosophy and engaged in miracles? It would make them hypocrites.

Nearly all other religions are filled with stories of how the founders, or prophets engaged in various miracles to prove that these men were truly one with god. But the beauty of Sikhi lies in that each Guru, though being completely in oneness with god, ALWAYS LIVED THE SAME SIMPLE LIFE AS ANY AVERAGE MAN. They always used the same means of hard honest effort to achieve any goal they set out to. And they only relied on logical reasoning, seasoned with love and tolerance to convey their message to everyone around them. IS it not enough that the gurus were able to achieve miraclous success in transforming the average mans psyche and spirit from the lowest of the low to lofty heights all thru regular everyday means? Why do we need to follow the path of other religions and add the use of "miraculous powers" to the gurus undertakings? WIll their value as a guru lessen if they used ordinary efforts like everyone else? Will they be any less inspiring if they didnt perform any miracles?

The majority of the sakhis in which these miraculous accounts are written are full of so much information, events, and ideas which are contrary to gurmat that any honest follower of Sikhi would be forced to at least analyze these stories individually using the kusvutee of gurbani. Whehter the inclusion of miracles in these janamsakhis was done intentionaly to confuse and dilute sikhi with brahminological ideology or was done innocently merely as a metaphorical tool to help drive home a deeper meaning one thing remains certain: That sikhs as a whole seem to be more infatuated and fixated on the miracles of the guru rather than the underlying message of the guru. And I believe the only way one can undo this damage is by taking time to read and understand gurbani so that we can get a clearer picture of gurmat philosophy in its true form. And once we do this, i think it become very clear that the gurus performing any sort of miracle could never be true.

Rab Rakha

 

[ISDhillon]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

I agree with Dr Khalsa all that happens even miracles are from akal why do we devalue the human, the greatest defiance of the law of non-contradiction is that we share the same divine essence as akal but we are not akal at the same time,

With respect to Kharkko4life Ji.

You seem to be holding on to this idea that sikhs who accept miracles are salvaging a sense of self worth and if i may say so in you mind set that "is not cool", that the current trend should be to have the gurus as human beings and that their words were theonly thing that amazed people and then logically if they did perform miracles then that would mean that they were trying to be famous this is silly!:}--}:

“IN each case the guru would stress to the people why go to these men to get ur wishes filled, instead keep faith in the One Creator and accept all that He does as good.”

Well guru arjan dev ji sent mata ganga ji to baba Buddha ji so she could have a baby why did she not just sit back and say oh well guess its not in my karam, all is gods hukum even going to sadhus, where does gods hukum start and stop there is no answer to any of these questions.

“themselves went against their own philosophy and engaged in miracles?”

it is your personal opinion and not gurus philosophy when you talk of miracles why don’t you provide solid evidence to back up your claims.

“ALWAYS LIVED THE SAME SIMPLE LIFE AS ANY AVERAGE MAN.”

AND THE AVERAGE MAN IS CAPABLE OF WHAT YOU DEEM AS MIRACLES HOWEVER AS PER MY UNDERSTANDING OF SIKHI MIRACLES ARE JUST PART AND PARCEL OF BEING HUMAN.

“Why do we need to follow the path of other religions and add the use of "miraculous powers" to the gurus undertakings?”

Well miracles mean nothing to me I listen and take advice of plenty of people including my lectururers but they never performed any miracles, but guess what I would respect the guru whether they did miracles or not but I am not going to reject the miracles because someone thinks my level of faith is appeasement through miracles that is your presumption and I am sure people are impressed by such things but trust me a person can believe in miracles but the words or bani still means more to them.

“i think it become very clear that the gurus performing any sort of miracle could never be true.”

Good luck my personal view is that it will never happen because there are plenty of individuals like me who do understand the underlying message and still accept the janamsakhis as being true, not everyone is out to bigup their faith just because of miracles you just accept and move on cos in reality my guru is here today and that’s all I need I don’t need history of past gurus everytime I read path I am with my guru.

Please readjust your thoughts,OMG

ISDhillon:{;o:

 

[kharkoo4life]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

Fateh,

Much Thanks for the silly-faced icons. Dont know what place those faces hold in a discussion about gurmat, or if u felt that perhaps their use would somehow make me more likely to be left in amazement of ur remarks and be more inclined to accept ur viewpoint. By the way, looking at the volatile range of emotions displayed in the icons u used, seems like perhaps a little relaxation mite be a gud idea (hehe).

You seem to be holding on to this idea that sikhs who accept miracles are salvaging a sense of self worth and if i may say so in you mind set that "is not cool", that the current trend should be to have the gurus as human beings and that their words were theonly thing that amazed people and then logically if they did perform miracles then that would mean that they were trying to be famous this is silly!:}--}:

Firstly, i am not trying to make ppl see the gurus as human beings. That is already a fact! They were not avtaars, incarnations, demi-gods, or superhumans etc., they were the same old regular type of human beings as you and I. The only difference was they were living at a completely different spiritual level (i.e. the highest state of brahmgyani, or anotherwords completely immersed as one with God). I have no need to make ppl believe this, for the fact they were human like us is common sense.

As for what part of the guru amazed ppl, i never stated it was just their words. In fact, for me everything about the gurus is amazing. How they thought, how they spoke, how they acted. It was not just their words which was amazing but also all their actions. The only caveat to this is that their actions did not include the need for display of any miracles. The regular ordinary actions they performed, i.e. never being afraid, always speaking out for others rights, always acting out of love even to the cruelest of attackers etc. amidst the most difficult and threatening of environments, to me these actions themselves are amazing and beyond belief sometimes. I have no need to see the gurus performing miracles to validate their greatness.

As for why they would perform miracles, i have yet to see a single reasonable answer. To simply state that the miracles happened and we should just accept them as true is a very naive and immature argument. To say that i believe every 100% of what is written in the janamsakhis simply cuz it is written is tatamount to blind faith, not reason based faith of a true learner (sikh).

Well guru arjan dev ji sent mata ganga ji to baba Buddha ji so she could have a baby why did she not just sit back and say oh well guess its not in my karam, all is gods hukum even going to sadhus, where does gods hukum start and stop there is no answer to any of these questions.

The above sakhi u quote goes to show just how ridiculous some of the contents of purataan janamsakhis is and how heavily influenced they are by brahmincal ideology. Firstly, if someone came to the guru for a baby why would guru arjan dev on one hand accept their request and grant them a baby (be it thru them or 2nd person like baba budha) while at the same time be compiling SGGS as the eternal guru in which it states:

jMmxu mrxw hukmu pCwxu ]1]
Understand that birth and death come according to the Lord's Will. (p.412)
jMmxu mrxw hukmu hY BwxY AwvY jwie ]
Birth and death are subject to the Command of the Lord's Will; through His Will we come and go. (p.472)

Did guru arjan dev ji consider baba budha ji equivalent to God that mata ganga should go to him for a child? Isnt it ironic how much this story resembles the then (and in many cases still present ritual) of ppl going to pandits, sadhus, brahmins etc in hopes of gettin a certain wish filled. The brahmins of then (and now) would say if u want a child come to me with ur prayers and do such and such service for me and then i will grant u the gift of a child (by myself doing various 'special' prayers and mantars). The only difference in this story is that mata ganga is told to take her prayers to baba buda ji and do some sewa of him and by that she will be blessed with a child. Whatever happened to the notion that Guru Nanak stated above that all birth comes about thru Gods Will? Why then would a sikh go to another human being in hopes of having a birth in their family? This is what i mean by the janamsakhis in many cases contain so much unchecked information that if analyzed with a critical eye they make the gurus into complete hypocrites both when compared to other gurus and compared to the gurbani they wrote.

it is your personal opinion and not gurus philosophy when you talk of miracles why don’t you provide solid evidence to back up your claims.

You are right, i am not claiming to be an all knower of sikhi and neither do i claim every word of mine shud be accepted as pure truth, for the only pure truth i would ever advise anyone to accept is gurbani period. However with regards to providing solid evidence, i am not sure what u are referring to, but i could definitely ask you of the same. When u say that miracles did happen what evidence do u have? The janamsakhis? Do u consider them to be of equal level as gurbani? And where in gurbani does it show the guru engaging in any kind of miracle or for that matter condone the displayin of miracles by any man?

AND THE AVERAGE MAN IS CAPABLE OF WHAT YOU DEEM AS MIRACLES HOWEVER AS PER MY UNDERSTANDING OF SIKHI MIRACLES ARE JUST PART AND PARCEL OF BEING HUMAN.

You seem to be in too much of a hurry to try and break down my argument that you fail to properly read my posts. I never contested whether one is or isnt capable of engaging in "miracles". The powers of the human mind, once in complete harmony with the Lord are beyond description. My whole argument was and is whether the gurus would ever perform miracles and if so why.

Every action the gurus did they always provided reason for it. They never simply did something and said ok you must simply accept this cuz i am your guru. How would that make them any different than the self-righteous pandits, and brahmins who preached to the masses to follow their every word simply cuz they were "brahmins"? The gurus wanted to pass on the torch of sikhi to each memebr of the panth equaly, and the only way this could be done is through the dissemination of the same knowledge and understanding that they possessed to the followers. That is why, if the gurus made a certain remark, or did a certain action and the sikhs questioned them of what the purpose of that was the gurus would always give them answers with clear reasoning behind it. Only thru this process of sharing their own understanding would the gurus be able to be sure that the sikhs could then pass this same understanding onto others.

gurU isKu isKu gurU hY eyko gur aupdysu clwey ]
The Guru's Sikh, and the Sikh's Guru, are one and the same; both spread the Guru's Teachings. (p.444)

The Gurus teachings werent simply teh guru did this so u must accept it, or the guru says do this so go do it. The gurus teachings were all founded on logical reasoning which every person could understand and be able to realize the significance of. Thus if we are to accept the gurus as performing miracles i must ask, since the gurus always gave reasons behind their actions, they surely must have given reason behind the miracles that they engaged in, so would you be so kind as to share those reasons with everyone else. Why did they perform the miracles that they did? What was their purpose? What did they achieve thru them?

Good luck my personal view is that it will never happen because there are plenty of individuals like me who do understand the underlying message and still accept the janamsakhis as being true, not everyone is out to bigup their faith just because of miracles you just accept and move on cos in reality my guru is here today and that’s all I need I don’t need history of past gurus everytime I read path I am with my guru.

IF u wish to accept the janamsakhis as true, then by all means keep doing so i would never force anyone not to. And if u already understand the deeper message of gurbani than i honestly am happy for you. However, as im sure u are aware, the great majority of ppl out there, particularly the youth, have a very weak understanding if any of Sikhi. For someone with a strong knowledge of gurbani (as it seems u have) they are unaffected by whether miracles did or didnt happen cuz to them the message is more important than the means used to convey it, for they already know the deeper message and can focus on that. But for newcomers, they will be more drawn and fixated on the 'miracles', 'powers' of the gurus shown in these stories rather than the deeper underlying message. For them, having a concrete picture of the sakhis (i.e. whether miracles did or didnt happen) is much more important and cant simply be left with the attitude "dont worry about it and just focus on the shabad guru"

Please readjust your thoughts,OMG

ISDhillon:{;o:

[/quote]

You will be glad to know that I am always readjusting my thoughts as i learn new things. For anyone to ever claim i never have to readjust my thoughts would mean they already know everything and could never be wrong. However, whenever i do adjust my thoughts, i make sure to use one standard guideline, and that is gurbani. If it is in accorandance with gurbani then i will accept it and change my thoughts, but if gurbani says otherwise then i will not.

Sincerely,

 

[ISDhillon]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events



“I have no need to see the gurus performing miracles to validate their greatness.”

Nor do I but I still accept them as being true.

“To simply state that the miracles happened and we should just accept them as true is a very naive and immature argument”

janamsakhis were the evidence, you have adopted an opposition argument what may I ask is the evidence which supports your opposition, it is wishful thinking to suggest that the janamsakhis must be proved their will be no account on video as it was invented much later on, therefore you must also reject the guru granth sahib also because these were words that were written also where is your evidence that the granth was written by the guru and how do you prove it?

“Whatever happened to the notion that Guru Nanak stated above that all birth comes about thru Gods Will?”

this statement is a clear indication of how your attempt at logic is lame, why is it that the will of god is not in going to a baba and asking for blessings of a child like I said in my previous post where does gods hukum start and finish, the fact that I am writing this post now is also gods hukum if I was to ask a baba to write my post for me that would also be gods hukum, the gurus wife was mata ganga and he sent her himself to a sikh it was to show that you should go and do service of gurmukhs it was not to show that the guru endorsed jantar mantar.

“they make the gurus into complete hypocrites both when compared to other gurus and compared to the gurbani they wrote.”

I think I have addressed above how this statement is irrelevant I don’t mean to sound knowledgable on sikhi but your idea of gurmat is incorrect.

“Every action the gurus did they always provided reason for it.”

No they did not. Prove it?

“The gurus teachings were all founded on logical reasoning which every person could understand and be able to realize the significance of”

no it was not this is what you would personally like it to be where is your proof of all of this, in fact I have provided you plenty of quotes from sggs in my previou post none of which you have addressed because deep down inside you know your position is flawed, the guru is noor ilahi the radiant form of the guru was enough to not shatter any faith or question the guru.

“Why did they perform the miracles that they did? What was their purpose? What did they achieve thru them?”

because it was the will of god, and these questions are in fact pointless because I have already said that no –ne can second guess the mind of the guru but I am willing to do this just for you so lets look at a few youll be surprised how simple the answers are it doesn’t take a genius:

valli khandari: to stop a boulder and give water to mardana
evil kauda: to stop him from eating mardana
mecca: to show that god exists everywhere
makkan shah: to show what is possible with true devotion to guru
Baghdad: to show there are many other worlds than just this and falisification of semitic revelations

I could go on but from the above, the miracles were never to show the guru was an amazing person or to appeal to wider public, the guru takes away people ignorance, the guru used spiritual power some used physical power some used mental power there is nothing that is condoned or disallowed, it just is, their does not have to be a reason. the wandering mind is afflicted by such questions, are you doing your bhagti? If so your questions will stop and you would seek all answers from bani but not use bani to look into past history their is nothing gained from that just more questions.

“But for newcomers, they will be more drawn and fixated on the 'miracles', 'powers' of the gurus shown in these stories rather than the deeper underlying message”

I hope you don’t feel that I am always disagreeing with you but I am this time, the youth are more obsessed with shaheeda because the martial aspect of sikhi has always been overplayed especially in sakhis,

Isdhillon

 

[kharkoo4life]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

Fateh,

Do not worry. I do not take anything personally and do not see this as an "argument" but rather as an open discourse between two people, each with their own thinking and perspectives, both in hopes of learning from the other.

Who is ultimately right and who is ultimately wrong only the guru/god knows. I do respect your views as well as ur right to believe in what you choose to. In the same way i choose to hold onto my own beliefs. As long as we can both make use of our own beliefs in understanding and realizing the Gurus message (to be kind,caring individuals out to help others) then it becomes a moot point of who is right or wrong. Hopefully our aim is the same (to become immersed in waheguru) though our thought processing may be different.

However, for the sake of debate i shall answer ur questions shortly when time permits. Until then, stay in anticipation.

Rab Rakha

 

[Sugmad]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

haha,
so once again this debate will start. I hope I dont get banned.

Janam Sakhris are NOT true events, they are scientifically impossible. They were created and designed for the sole purpose to incite courage and other features which the average person could assosciate with.

I ask you this, if you regard Janam Sakhris as true, then do you regard other stories which various religions state as true also?

There are those who try to understand things solely with their mind. In the Japji Sahib is written that you can think millions of times but you will never understand the path to GOD through your mind. This path of lofty height was given by the Gurus to those Gurmukhs only. Manmukhs have their own way of thinking and rely solely on temporary things. Things that are beyond their understanding do not exist. This path is the path of the SOUL. The Soul came from Sach Khand and on its way picked up the mind as its instrument that also is a curse.GOD does not need to prove anything to anybody and neither were the Gurus.
ALL POWER comes from GOD and before that LORD nothing can stand.
There are believers and then there are disbelievers. This game will never end. Whether the Janam Sakhis are true or not is for the Gyan(knowledge) of that particular individual. Grace comes from GOD only and if grace is not given,there is no way to proceed. Grace comes to those that GOD himself deems ready to proceed back to him.Guru Nanak Ji was not an ordinary Guru. He was sent by Akal Purush. There are those who will shudder to hear the name of the Guru spoken and others who dont feel anything.
We are not here to prove anything. The intellectuals
will never understand because they are using the mind.
The existence and the method of the SOUL they know not.
There are people who said why Jesus , Guru Arjan Dev Ji,
Guru Tegh Bahadur and others didn't defend themselves as they had all these powers.
As you will understand,they were beyond the realm of the senses of pain and pleasure.
Jesus didn't cry in pain as portrayed in movies. He didn't show any emotions. So were the great Gurus.People try to understand things that are beyond themselves and try to bring them lower to their own puny selves to understand.
Life or Death meant nothing to them but to us is something else. So who are we to understand GOD ?
Can you understand something that is beyond the MIND? The ways of the Gurus
are also beyond the ways of the Mind.
Only the real Khalsa can understand the other real Khalsa. In this world there are very few indeed.

Satnam Sri Waheguru Ji

 

[Archived_member2]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

Satsriakal to all and dear Sikh Ji!
Your first post on this topic was on 24.08.2004. Your last post on this topic was on 28.01.2006.
In both the posts your age is mentioned twenty (20).

Is this a miracle too?

**************

People act as God's Will. Some persons write about people's activities. Many others read and discuss about it without recognizing Truth.

One, who realizes Truth, finds miracles in all activities and silence at the same time. He does not argue what came first, the egg or the hen.

You want to know the origin of both. I hope you are bored watching the evolution.

**************

Fairy tales make a person aware of miracles.

Miracles become true with Naam Simran.


Balbir Singh

 

[dalsingh]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

Janam sakhis are not literally true in my opinion.

I think it is important to bare in mind that Panjab in the past (and even now!!) is full of illiterate people with whom rational reasoning is difficult. In the past preachers may have made their points through the use of miraculous stories which impress such people. So for example when Guru Nanak goes to Bhai Lalo's house, avoiding rich Malik Bhago's feast, which ends in the miracle where milk pours from food from Lalo's house and blood from that of Malik Bhago's, the deeper point is one regarding honesty, exploiting the vulnerable and ostentatiousness and stuff. This is the deeper meaning, the important message I believe. It should also be noted that an old version of the sakhi actually doesn't include a miracle but ends with Guru Nanak simply 'saying' that the milk of humility is contained in Lalo's food and the blood of the poor in Bhago's. Possibly the miracle was added later to a true story in this case. But other stuff like stopping boulders, talking to animals, making stuff appear from nowhere and bringing dead folk back to life are suspect.



Dasam Granth

Page 131. Bachitar Natak. Guru Gobind talking about his fathers sacrifice and failure to produce a miracle infront of the emperor:


Naatak chetak kooe kukaajaa|| Prabh logan kah aavat laajaa||14||
The saints of the Lord abhor the performance of miracles and malpractices.


No miracles please I'm educated. Don't bring our Gurus to the same level as fairies and conjurors.

Plus it would be nice if the miracle believers explain the above quote!

 

[Sugmad]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

The Gurus by themselves live in the WILL (MAUJ) of GOD ALMIGHTY. They by themselves do not defend themselves as their WILL has merged into GOD . Whatever happens , is GOD's will . The realm of miracles is not outside of GOD's plays but are sometimes shown.
GOD can appear inside a rock if there was faith great enough to produce it. Without that great faith , there is nothing inside that rock. That faith comes through intense love and sewa of the Lord. The Faith of the Gurmukh Khalsa is beyond description. In the old days
were also stronger people mentally. We live in a present age where our crops are sprayed
with pesticides,fruits are laden with toxins, processed foods that make us sicker in body and mind. Many of our chores are simpler. You only need to read or see Ripley's Believe it or not and see for yourself the things that cannot be done by ordinary folks. Many strange things are there in this world of ours. Truth is Stranger than Fiction. The biggest miracle
for me was the coming of GURU NANAK DEV JI to this world of ours and to give us the
message from GOD HIMSELF.

Sat Sri Akaal

Janam sakhis are not literally true in my opinion.

I think it is important to bare in mind that Panjab in the past (and even now!!) is full of illiterate people with whom rational reasoning is difficult. In the past preachers may have made their points through the use of miraculous stories which impress such people. So for example when Guru Nanak goes to Bhai Lalo's house, avoiding rich Malik Bhago's feast, which ends in the miracle where milk pours from food from Lalo's house and blood from that of Malik Bhago's, the deeper point is one regarding honesty, exploiting the vulnerable and ostentatiousness and stuff. This is the deeper meaning, the important message I believe. It should also be noted that an old version of the sakhi actually doesn't include a miracle but ends with Guru Nanak simply 'saying' that the milk of humility is contained in Lalo's food and the blood of the poor in Bhago's. Possibly the miracle was added later to a true story in this case. But other stuff like stopping boulders, talking to animals, making stuff appear from nowhere and bringing dead folk back to life are suspect.



Dasam Granth

Page 131. Bachitar Natak. Guru Gobind talking about his fathers sacrifice and failure to produce a miracle infront of the emperor:


Naatak chetak kooe kukaajaa|| Prabh logan kah aavat laajaa||14||
The saints of the Lord abhor the performance of miracles and malpractices.


No miracles please I'm educated. Don't bring our Gurus to the same level as fairies and conjurors.

Plus it would be nice if the miracle believers explain the above quote!

Was there any other way for Guru Nanak Dev Ji to bring light to that man's folly. Eduaction has nothing
to do with miracles. The way of the Saint's are strange enough. They do not abide by any rules . They do produce miracles if permission is
given by GOD himself. They do not live outside of God but from within
GOD's Loving heart.That quote says abhor . Saints can if they want to
but they will not do it for their own sake. Didn't that miracle showed
the mistake that was done by that
guy and that story has comed down to us later generation to teach us
to EARN OUR OWN LIVING and not live on others blood. Truth is Highest
but Higher still is Truthful Living.
Content on our state and be happy and share whatever little we have.
This after all is the Way of the Gurus.

 

[dalsingh]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

I'm not saying our Gurus weren't powewful. But the inconsistencies regarding miracles is so plain in Sikhism. Guru Arjan Dev Ji didn't perform a miracle, nor Guru Tegh Bahadhur despite being asked before they were martyred. Ram Rai was excommunicated for it. Traditional accounts say that Baba Gurditta died early because he had performed a miracle. Guru Gobind explicitly condemned it as in the quote. Despite this we still subscribe to miracles. It isn't like the Gurus message isn't big enough without them.

Sugmad Bhai Ji, do you not even consider the possibility that there may be later exaggerations in the Janam Sakhis?

 

[Sugmad]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

I'm not saying our Gurus weren't powewful. But the inconsistencies regarding miracles is so plain in Sikhism. Guru Arjan Dev Ji didn't perform a miracle, nor Guru Tegh Bahadhur despite being asked before they were martyred. Ram Rai was excommunicated for it. Traditional accounts say that Baba Gurditta died early because he had performed a miracle. Guru Gobind explicitly condemned it as in the quote. Despite this we still subscribe to miracles. It isn't like the Gurus message isn't big enough without them.

Sugmad Bhai Ji, do you not even consider the possibility that there may be later exaggerations in the Janam Sakhis?

YES

 

[dalsingh]

re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events

YES

So where does the miraculous stuff fit in?

Shouldn't we discount it all?