Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux

[Inder singh]

Truth does not remain hidden.

Randip

You deleted my post and only one line was left out of that. May i know the raeson for that? Or it is a personal whim.

 

[spnadmin]

Ajmer ji

I don't have an answer because I do not know what you did when you uploaded. Best thing is to send it to me and let me upload it.

antoniadonofrio@gmail.com

Sometime today I will get it up.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Veer Tejwant singh,
If misunderstanding is there, please re-write your question. Why i wrote to Gyaniji, may be in some pretext, i don't remember. I wonder one thing your's and Gyani ji's views always favoring each other whereas if i protest, i do appreciate also. Why so?
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Following is the post #120 I am reposting for you as per your request. So I will wait for your response.


You write:

Veer Tejwant Singh ji, gueu fateh !!
You yourself is a wise person and you know that their couldn't be any reference of Hemkunt in Guru Granth Sahab ji, Than why do you ask me this silly question.

My response:

I get bewildered by the Sikh scholars, historians or those who call themselves having knowledge of Sikhi, when they use immature and infantile words like SILLY as you have to show your disdain towards what I have asked. It shows that you are trying to prove that you are superior and happen to know more , hence your conclusion made my question SILLY in your thought process, which shows more about yourself than about my question.

Let's get to the facts. Following is your claim.

Pardon my ignorance but I am confused by your statement,"if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge tha authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also"

And following is my question regarding your claim:

Can you please elaborate it a bit from Gurmat point of view? Please keep in mind that our only benchmark is Sri [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-granth-sahib/"]Guru Granth Sahib[/URL] Ji.

Please show me in my post above where I asked you to give me the references from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I never did. Please read my question again and respond accordingly rather than with your infantile remarks.

I will discuss the other parts of your post after your response.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

veer Tejwant ji, Your question is....Can you please elaborate it a bit from Gurmat point of view? Please keep in mind that our only benchmark is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Well see benchmark is AGGS, right and elaboration from Gurmat point of view. What to elaborate?.....
"if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge the authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also"
So where i am wrong? If you want to elaborate from Gurmat point of view the authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib, that no one can. Only the believe and faith upon 10th Guru.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

 

[spnadmin]

Ajmer ji - Take a look and tell me if this is correct. Was there a picture or was it a document. The file came through as a docx in a zip file. If I have it wrong, then I have to try a different way.

docx files cannot be uploaded using SPN v-bulletin software. That is why you couldn't upload it.

I saved the docx file as a pdf file. You can see it on the right hand side of this post.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

veer Tejwant ji, Your question is....Can you please elaborate it a bit from Gurmat point of view? Please keep in mind that our only benchmark is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Well see benchmark is AGGS, right and elaboration from Gurmat point of view. What to elaborate?.....
"if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge the authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also"
So where i am wrong? If you want to elaborate from Gurmat point of view the authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib, that no one can. Only the believe and faith upon 10th Guru.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please elaborate how can " only then believe and faith upon 10th Guru"- your words, not mine- be authenticated? It is oxy{censored} and also self contradictory to even think like that because authentication of anything requires hard facts not belief and faith.

So your claim is not only false but also misleading.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Benchmark of SGGS.... is the clue...to a complete answer on Hemkunt.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Guru Granth Sahib as the only Sikh Canon; Fresh Look at the Text and History of Dasam Granth

Summary
By Jasbir Singh Mann


Personal Guruship was ended by the 10th Guru after finalizing the Sikh mission and sanctifying and passing succession to Guru Granth Sahib as a future Guru of the Sikhs in 1708. This was the final culmination of the Sikh concept of Guruship, capable of resisting the temptation to defy the lines of human Gurus. The Tenth Guru while maintaining the concept of Shabad Guru also made the Panth distinctive by introducing corporate Guruship. The concept of Guruship continued and the role of human gurus transferred to the Guru Panth and that of the revealed world to Guru Granth Sahib making Sikhism a distinct modern religion in 1708. This historical fact is well documented in Sikh sources of 18th century. Sainapat (1711), Bhai Nandlal, Bhai Prahlad, and Chaupa Singh, Koer Singh (1751), Kesar Singh Chibbar (1769), Mahima Prakash (1775), Munshi Sant Singh on account of Bedi family of the Una, Unpublished records, Bhatt Vahis. Persian sources: Mirza Muhammed (1705-1719 AD), Sayad Muhammed Qasim (1722 AD), Hussain Lahauri (1731), Royal Court News of Mughals, Akhbarat-i-Darbar-i-Mualla (1708). Western accounts of 18th century including Father Wendel, Charles Wilkins, Crauford, James Browne, George Forester, and John Griffith clearly emphasize the tenants of Nanak as enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib as the only promulgated scripture of the Sikhs.
There was no Dasam Granth found in Punjab or Delhi area in 18th century. There is no evidence that in 18th century”Adi granth was not given any exclusive preference over the bani of Guru Gobind Singh” as this idea was floated by Mcleod & Grewal J.S. Malcom’selfcreated story ”at time of Khalsa Initiation ,Five weapons were presented to the intiate” which is further promoted by Pashaura singh & Mcleod “ Orgnizers of Singh Sabha Movement replaced the tradition of Five Weapons with that Of Five religion symbols(known as Five Ks)” is not Based on any Sikh or western Source. There were 32 Dasam Granths circulating in the Amritsar’ area by 1890. The presently published Dasam Granth (1902) was created by the Sodhak Committee formed of British Cronies (1895-1897) to give a closer to the Granth floated by them in the late 18th century with the help of Nirmalas at Patna. The manuscript of this granth was implanted in the East India Library by Colebrook & Charles Wilkins and used by John Malcom in 1810, in his book “Sketch of the Sikhs”. Devnagri Dasam Granth (Presently in British Library, London) was written in February 1847 after the Sikhs lost the first Anglo-Sikh War (Second treaty with Lahore December 16, 1846 at Bhairowal when Britishers became virtual masters of Punjab). Treacherous Sardar Tej Singh was the chief of the regency council when this Devnagri Dasam Granth was created. In recognition of his services, the title of Raja was conferred on him on August 7, 1847. Story of Mani Singh compiling a Dasam Granth between 1721 to 1738 during his stay at Amritsar at the request of Mata Sundri is difficult to prove by evidence as the Dasam Granth reported to be compiled by him was found only in 1818 and the first part of this manuscript is a Bano Version of Guru Granth Sahib which makes it very unlikely to be the composition compiled by Mani Singh who compiled the Damdami version earlier. The story of Mehtab Singh and Sukha Singh slaying Massa Ranghar and reward of successful mission keeping the various parts of Dasam Granth as a single volume cannot be supported by any historical evidence. Babadeep Singh is said to have compiled another manuscript of Dasam Granth in 1747 A.D. as reported by Giani Singh which ends at Asfotak Kabit. Only Sangrur Bir as studied by Padam & Jaggi Is reported to end with final title Asfotak Kabit .Therefore, probably it is the same Manuscript as reported by Giani Gian Singh . The first portion Of This Manuscript is Guru Granth Sahib & 2nd portion is Dasam granth.This Manuscript Contains additional compositions Like Sansahar Sukhmana, Vaar Malkauns and Chakka Bhagoti Which Were edited & deleted by Sodhak Committee in 1897, therefore cannot make this manuscript authentic. By history Babadeep Singh bir/Sangrur bir appeared in 1857 only. The author has reviewed the history and text of Dasam Granth from 18th to 20th century and the summary of the findings is as follows:
• [/FONT]Historical analysis shows that 10th master may have made many Granths noted in the literature e.g. Smudsagar / Avtarlila / Vidyasagar Granth/Vidyadar Granth / Bachitar Natak /Satsai Granth. But no original Granth is available as they were lost in river and warfare.
• [/FONT]Bhai Mani Singh is reported to compile Dasam Granth between 1721-1738 at request of Mata Sundri but no original available.Photgrphs as published by Dr. Padam In His 3rd Edition reported to be in possession of Mata sundry Has no Histry of 18th&19th century.
• [/FONT]Controversy of Dasam Granth Authenticity started in 18th century and still continues
• [/FONT]By the end of 19th century (1895), 32 birs of Dasam Granth were in circle in Amritsar which were used by Sodhak Committee to finalize the final version of Dasam Patshahi GURU Granth Sahib sahib JI.
• [/FONT]. Lahore Singh Sabha With 118 associations DID NOT Recognize This new Dasam Pathshai Guru Granth Sahib in 1897. 3 articles published in Khalsa Akhbar Lahore against this committee on october 4th,25th&november 1st 1895.
• [/FONT]1897 - Above bir has no significance among the Sikhs as not mentioned by Akali Ran Singh, 1905 in his book about Dasam Granth
• [/FONT]Kahan Singh Nabha in 1930 in Mahan Kosh does not mention 1897 sodhak Committee report or dasam granth published in 1902 based on this report. He talks about only two birs of Mani Singh & Sukha Singh Bir& requests more thorough work on this issue.
• [/FONT]Dharam Pal Ashta 1959 Based his Thesis On Sodhak committee Report of 1897 without confirming Authenticity of Dasam Granth Manusripts he used in his study.
• [/FONT]Historical analysis shows that no bir of Dasam Granth was seen in Punjab or New Delhi area ia 18th century, only Charles Wilkins in 1781 sees some second Granth in Patna which he reported appeared later and also reported that Guru Granth Sahib was the only sanctified and promulgated.
• [/FONT]Historical records show, Banda Singh, Nawab Kapur Singh, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, and Sikh Misals of the 18th century do not revere Dasam Granth. Baghel Singh built 8 hitorical Gurudwaras in New Delhi in 1784 and no evidence of Dasam Granth installed anywhere.
• [/FONT]Textual analysis of all known birs of Dasam Granth show variations of titles in Tatkara, variation of titles at start of composition and variation of contents. History of no DG birs goes before 1818.
• [/FONT]No original Khas patra available. Letter of Mani Singh is spurious
• [/FONT]Historical inconsistencies in Bachitar Natak. There are various scribes of Dasam Granth. Difficult to discuss orthography as no original is available.
• [/FONT]Ideological inconsistencies and ideological variations
• [/FONT]Heterogeneous Granth of different collections compiled by Sukha Singh and promoted by the British
• [/FONT]Dating inconsistencies. Wrong chronology, 7 compositions excluded in 1897 published Text ?
• [/FONT]Bachitar Natak, a manipulative collection with no mention of martyrdom of 5th Guru. Reverence of Adi Granth compiled in 1604 and as spiritual guru to the Sikhs since then. No mention of creation of Khalsa and Amrit ceremony.
• [/FONT]Malcom’s sketch of the Sikhs created a distorted Sikhism to diminish the spirit of the Sikhs and their government as proposed by William Franklin in 1803 in his account.
• [/FONT]10th guru only gave sanctification to A.G.G.S. alone in 1708 and not to any other Granth
• [/FONT]Bani of A.G.G.S. is the sole Guru for Sikhs and a sole canon to accept any idea, concept, suggestion, and any writing
• [/FONT]Based upon above doctrine Banis / writing of 10th Guru accepted in Sikh Rahat Maryada got Sanctfied By Guru Panth (1927-1936) are final and unquestionable. Japu Sahib, 10 swaeyas(swarg Sudu Waley 21-30 akal ustit) Chaupai, Ardas (as sanctioned RehatMaryada).including Akal Ustit (except Chhand 201-230),khalsa mehma, 33 Swaeyas, Shabad Hazarey and Zafarnama are banis / writings of 10th Guru. Khalsa Panth collectively is allowed to make / accept any changes based upon the doctrines as established in A.G.G.S. acceptable to the Guru Panth
• [/FONT]Presently published Dasam Granth is a piece of Sikh literature like many other books in Sikh history. It is a compilation of heterogeneous granths in late 18th century by Mahant Nawal & Dayal Singh and Sukha Singh Granthi at Patna by converting a Hindoove language manuscript “Nanak Panthi Kabya” to Gurmukhi Granth, Dasmi Patshahi Granth. They interpolated Bani and writings of Patshahi 10 and other simialar saloks like GGS to gain credibility of this Granth which was promoted by Malcom initially in “Sketch of the Sikhs” published in 1810,1812. Brought to Punjab Gurdwaras by Nirmalas in early 19th Century
• [/FONT]Sikhism an integrated religion with unity of Sikh thought between the first and tenth Guru. Tenth Guru sanctified only one Granth (cannon), that is Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

 

[Inder singh]

•Presently published Dasam Granth is a piece of Sikh literature like many other books in Sikh history. It is a compilation of heterogeneous granths in late 18th century by Mahant Nawal & Dayal Singh and Sukha Singh Granthi at Patna by converting a Hindoove language manuscript “Nanak Panthi Kabya” to Gurmukhi Granth, Dasmi Patshahi Granth. They interpolated Bani and writings of Patshahi 10 and other simialar saloks like GGS to gain credibility of this Granth which was promoted by Malcom initially in “Sketch of the Sikhs” published in 1810,1812. Brought to Punjab Gurdwaras by Nirmalas in early 19th Century

I wish Jasbir singh Mann should participate in the discussion here and clear my points on Dasam granth.

His statement that this is written by some nirmala mahant has been proved wrong on learning-zone when he was quoting some verse from Gian probodh to show that Nirmla mahant's name comes in that. After that he stopped writing there. This happened four years back.

His statement about Nanak Panthi kabya is also wrong and lacks credibility. We have done research on that. He is trying to give impression that Dasam Granth was an import of British and before eighteenth century there was no Dasam granth in Punjab.

Charles malcolm a british Commander came to Punjab in 1805 in pursuit of Holkar a maratha rebel who had taken shelter of Ranjit singh. Charles malcolm came there with permission of Maharaja ranjit singh ji. There was Gurmatta held at akal takhat in 1805. He saw that and later on when he wrote his book " Sketch of sikhs" he mentioned what he saw in that gurmatta.

Below is a refrence from his book " Asketch of sikhs"

quote

Note: The following is an excerpt from a book, Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab,written by Sir John Malcolm* in 1812. John Malcolm’s work is one of the rarest firsthand information recorded by a western historian on the lifestyle, belief systems and traditions of the Sikhs in Punjab during the 18th century .​

Guru-mata​

When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs.

When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: "Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!" on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: "The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united." This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab.

(pages. 120-123)
________________________
*Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India(1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826), and Life of Lord Clive (1836)


Unquote


Most of us know that Punjab was taken ovevr by British in 1849. Before that gilding work of Harmandir sahib was undertaken in first decade of 1800s by maharaja ranjit singh and entrance door of Harmandir sahib had inscription of beginning of Ardas from Chandi di vaar.


I personally invited him to attend seminar at sacramento on dasam granth in 2007 as we had a lot of literature and if any doubts of him could be removed by us. One evening before seminar he phoned me and expressed his inability to come.

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Veer Tejawant ji, Guru fateh !!
Instead of getting annoyed on unnecessary t hings, please calm down.
Believe and faith upon 10th Guru and you require authentication. What do you think me a fool or you want to make me by such ideology. Please don't distract from the main subject. I dsare to say again i can't answer such silly questions. The same i have quoted earlier.So please excuse me, if any other readee can answer you, he is welcome.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

 

[spnadmin]

Please forgive my interrupting your discussion with a moderator's note. I have deleted 3 posts in this thread. One by Gyani ji which seemed to be a duplicate post. And two identical posts by Inder ji which also seemed to be a duplicate and triplicate of an earlier post. Please take a careful look to make sure that I was not seeing things, and in fact they were duplications. Thank you: aad0002

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Mine was duplicate..and i was pretty sure i pressed submit only once. anyway i had already institued laptop shut down as i was already late going out..so left it for later. Thanks aad ji for doing the needful.

btw has happened a few times - maybe aman ji can check out IF its a glitch at spns end...because i am sure the others may also be sending only once..but spn gets two posts. Thanks.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

interesting discussion

but i think no one is answering the original questions

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Ajmer singh ji,
gurfateh.

Can you clarify ( as per your understanding)
WHICH JYOT was doing penance on Hemkunt ?..Nanak JYOT or some other ?
Guru naank Ji came FIRST...His AUTHENTIC GURBANI is with us in SGGS..He didnt say a single word about His JYOT sitting on any seven peaked mountain....and Guur nanak ji PLACED HIS JYOT into Guru Angad...and then on the SAME JYOT to GURU GOBIND SINGH JI..and NOW into SGGS.
NONE of the Nine Gurus mentioned ANYTHING..not a peep about any such places, mountains etc. DIDNT THEY do nay such??

2. HEMKUNT is ON THIS EARTH...and the JYOT was doing PENANCE ON THIS EARTH..for how long...YUGS ??? Can a JYOT feel the cold/heat ?? does it have to SIT on one place ?? SHIVJI is always shown sitting on some snow laden peak with snake around his neck...is this Penance similar to what you beleive Guru ji did ...ISNT GURU JYOT SUPERCEDING THE UNIVERSE...confining this JYOT to a mere HIMALAYAN MOUNTAIN FOR YUGS and YUGS is a ???? preposterous idea....like caging a LION in a parrot cage ???

3. WHY not a SINGLE GURU in SGGS ever mention any such jyots and penances etc. Neither did any Bhagat....in fact NO ONE says anything..not even a WHISPER..why ?? GURU NANAK JI JYOT came from where...didnt HE come from WAHEGURU DARBAAR...and WASNT HE SENT to ESTABLISH DHARAM in 1469....didnt HE FIGHT TYRANNY and INJUSTICE...???
Thank you for your replies... Please quote any Complete SHABADS from SGGS if you have nay.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

interesting discussion

but i think no one is answering the original questions

Amar ji..

highly embarassing observation..dont you think ?

IS it so...because the questions are basically UNANSWERABLE..TRUTHFULLY !! so beat around the BUSH..and hope for the BEST....some poor pigeon with closed eyes will fall into the trap..trouble is due to the IT AGE..just about everybody ahs his eyes wide open and no piegeon is sleeping...all fly awaay at the slightest noise....wow..

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Hell and punishment

Gyani ji and other learned members

can someone share thoughts on this

pp 278

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:

ਸੁਖੀ ਬਸੈ ਮਸਕੀਨੀਆ ਆਪੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਤਲੇ ॥
सुखी बसै मसकीनीआ आपु निवारि तले ॥
Sukẖī basai maskīnī▫ā āp nivār ṯale.
The humble beings abide in peace; subduing egotism, they are meek.

ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਗਰਬਿ ਗਲੇ ॥੧॥
बडे बडे अहंकारीआ नानक गरबि गले ॥१॥
Bade bade ahaʼnkārī▫ā Nānak garab gale. ||1||
The very proud and arrogant persons, O Nanak, are consumed by their own pride. ||1||

ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥
असटपदी ॥
Asatpaḏī.
Ashtapadee:

ਜਿਸ ਕੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਾਜ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
जिस कै अंतरि राज अभिमानु ॥
Jis kai anṯar rāj abẖimān.
One who has the pride of power within,

ਸੋ ਨਰਕਪਾਤੀ ਹੋਵਤ ਸੁਆਨੁ ॥
सो नरकपाती होवत सुआनु ॥
So narakpāṯī hovaṯ su▫ān.
shall dwell in hell, and become a dog.

ਜੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੈ ਜੋਬਨਵੰਤੁ ॥
जो जानै मै जोबनवंतु ॥
Jo jānai mai jobanvanṯ.
One who deems himself to have the beauty of youth,

ਸੋ ਹੋਵਤ ਬਿਸਟਾ ਕਾ ਜੰਤੁ ॥
सो होवत बिसटा का जंतु ॥
So hovaṯ bistā kā janṯ.
shall become a maggot in manure.

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਕਰਮਵੰਤੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
आपस कउ करमवंतु कहावै ॥
Āpas ka▫o karamvanṯ kahāvai.
One who claims to act virtuously,

ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਵੈ ॥
जनमि मरै बहु जोनि भ्रमावै ॥
Janam marai baho jon bẖarmāvai.
shall live and die, wandering through countless reincarnations.

ਧਨ ਭੂਮਿ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਕਰੈ ਗੁਮਾਨੁ ॥
धन भूमि का जो करै गुमानु ॥
Ḏẖan bẖūm kā jo karai gumān.
One who takes pride in wealth and lands

ਸੋ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਅੰਧਾ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
सो मूरखु अंधा अगिआनु ॥
So mūrakẖ anḏẖā agi▫ān.
is a fool, blind and ignorant.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਸ ਕੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥
करि किरपा जिस कै हिरदै गरीबी बसावै ॥
Kar kirpā jis kai hirḏai garībī basāvai.
One whose heart is mercifully blessed with abiding humility,

ਨਾਨਕ ਈਹਾ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਆਗੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
नानक ईहा मुकतु आगै सुखु पावै ॥१॥
Nānak īhā mukaṯ āgai sukẖ pāvai. ||1||
O Nanak, is liberated here, and obtains peace hereafter. ||1||

ਧਨਵੰਤਾ ਹੋਇ ਕਰਿ ਗਰਬਾਵੈ ॥
धनवंता होइ करि गरबावै ॥
Ḏẖanvanṯā ho▫e kar garbāvai.
One who becomes wealthy and takes pride in it -

ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਸਮਾਨਿ ਕਛੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
त्रिण समानि कछु संगि न जावै ॥
Ŧariṇ samān kacẖẖ sang na jāvai.
not even a piece of straw shall go along with him.

ਬਹੁ ਲਸਕਰ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਊਪਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਆਸ ॥
बहु लसकर मानुख ऊपरि करे आस ॥
Baho laskar mānukẖ ūpar kare ās.
He may place his hopes on a large army of men,

ਪਲ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸ ॥
पल भीतरि ता का होइ बिनास ॥
Pal bẖīṯar ṯā kā ho▫e binās.
but he shall vanish in an instant.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਆਪ ਜਾਨੈ ਬਲਵੰਤੁ ॥
सभ ते आप जानै बलवंतु ॥
Sabẖ ṯe āp jānai balvanṯ.
One who deems himself to be the strongest of all,

ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਇ ਭਸਮੰਤੁ ॥
खिन महि होइ जाइ भसमंतु ॥
Kẖin mėh ho▫e jā▫e bẖasmanṯ.
in an instant, shall be reduced to ashes.

ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਬਦੈ ਆਪਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ॥
किसै न बदै आपि अहंकारी ॥
Kisai na baḏai āp ahaʼnkārī.
One who thinks of no one else except his own prideful self -

ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਰੇ ਖੁਆਰੀ ॥
धरम राइ तिसु करे खुआरी ॥
Ḏẖaram rā▫e ṯis kare kẖu▫ārī.
the Righteous Judge of Dharma shall expose his disgrace.

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਿਟੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
गुर प्रसादि जा का मिटै अभिमानु ॥
Gur parsāḏ jā kā mitai abẖimān.
One who, by Guru's Grace, eliminates his ego,

ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ ॥੨॥
सो जनु नानक दरगह परवानु ॥२॥
So jan Nānak ḏargėh parvān. ||2||
O Nanak, becomes acceptable in the Court of the Lord. ||2||

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Amar Ji
Gurfateh.

IMHO..Guru Ji is using metaphorical language to explain the LIVING HELL people with those "qualities" described. IMHO GURBANI is FOR THIS WORLD. Guru Ji TOOK BIRTH among US...to TEACH US HOW TO LIVE OUR LIFE..successfully and in SPIRITUAL PEACE....how to achieve Jeewan Muktee..being sved while ALIVE.
Even the non-Gurbani readers will know that its said..KUTTA RAAJ bahaleah..FIR Chakee Chatteh. Even IF a DOG..is made a KING..he will still lick the atta chakee if given half a chance. I would take a simple example from Punjab. Badal has been made aKING..has billions stashed away..BUT given half a chance..HE still wnats to lick the atta chakee..by making his son..daughter in law..other relatives..to power..THAT is the DOG BIRTEE..the GREED in a FULLY FED DOG..that manifests rapidly the moment the dog sees food..he will run towards it to LICK..even though hsi stomach ois bursting full. THAT SORT of LIFE is aLIVING HELL !! comparedc to SANTOKH..peace a hard working labourer feels at night when his hard labour has managed to feed his family with simple roti daal..

ITS all about EGO, Hankaar, LOBH, MOH, Kaam, KRODH...all ANIMAL QUALITIES..that reside in MAN..and cna take him PRISONER..or they cna be Controlled and he is LIBERATED. IMHO the Liberated one is accepted in Gurus darbaar..he is in Peace..heaven..free from rebirth..etc..and the SLAVE is in HELL..being REBORN ( everytime he ahs these animal instincts REJUVENATED..he gets REBORN..and every time he KILLS them..he is LIBERATED from REBIRTH.

MY POINT is GURBANI is FOR THIS WORLD..it was written to IMPROVE OUR LIVES..teach us JEEVAN JAACH..way of LIFE...Not FRIGHTEN US about what will happen later...or try teh carrot approach of hooran and rivers of honey palaces of gold etc ( of what use is honey and gold papalces to a SOUL..no one bothers to ponder !! ALL this shows is that is the DESIRES of the Body IN THIS WORLD...so they PROMISE those desires fulfilled in the NEXT..after all who knows what happens there..promise the MOON also can ) GURBANI...doesnt deal in PROMISES..its a PRACTICAL WORKING PAPER that can WORK...to be IMPLEMENTED HERE and NOW...:happy::happy::happy:

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Gyani ji,
very tactfully you are dragging me into the discussion of authenticity of Bachitar Naatak and Dasam Granth. Before Guru Gobind Singh ji none of the nine Gurus ever disclosed their incarnation but the credit goes to Guru Gobind Singh ji only. Not only he disclosed about his meditation at Hemkunt in his previous life but you forget that when he visited at Nander, He got involved in the controversy of ownership of land there. Guru ji ordered his Sikhs to dig the land and recover his belongings beneath the layers of the earth to mark the prove that, that land was belonged to him and it was his hermitage in Satyug from where he went to Hemkunt.
The approved story of Hemkunt is described in Bachitar Naatak and the story of Nanded , I have read in folklore books written of Banda Bahadur, this can be verified from Jathedar of Hazoor sahib also.
The jot was one and that’s why in whole AGGS, every where is described as Mahalla ! to….. Mahalla 9. So no controversy to that.
You are very well aware of the fact that there is no Baani of Guru Gobind Singh ji is added in AGGS so I can’t quote. But at last I disclose one fact that in many hand written manuscripts of AGGS , the 54th salok in salok mahalla 9, is said to be of Guru Gobind Singh ji. In those manuscripts it is mentioned as salok mahalla 10. You are the scholars , historians and mum on this matter so far.(with ref. to Gurmat darsan by Prof. Sher Singh ji gyani . published by SGPC; it is a translation of “Philosophy of Sikhism earlier published in 1944".
Guru Fateh !!
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

 

[Inder singh]

Ajmer singh ji

This discussion had ended but some members are keen to keep it revived by posting personal opinions of individuals.

The banis of tenth master are reflected in all contemporary writings of sikhs of his era starting from Parchain sewa das ji written in 1708. Then another foreign writer visited Patna sahib in 1781 and he wrote very clearly about prakash of two granths at patna sahib. His writing is preserved. People are going on making their own assumptions without seeing the conditions in which Guru sahib had left Anandpur sahib. To such people we have to prove nothing. Those who doubt their Guru are not friend of anybody.

Incidentally Kavi sainapat completed his book Gurshobha in 1711. Whole book is written on the pattern
of Bachitra natak.

 

[Inder singh]

MY POINT is GURBANI is FOR THIS WORLD..it was written to IMPROVE OUR LIVES..teach us JEEVAN JAACH..way of LIFE...Not FRIGHTEN US about what will happen later...or try teh carrot approach of hooran and rivers of honey palaces of gold etc ( of what use is honey and gold papalces to a SOUL..no one bothers to ponder !! ALL this shows is that is the DESIRES of the Body IN THIS WORLD...so they PROMISE those desires fulfilled in the NEXT..after all who knows what happens there..promise the MOON also can ) GURBANI...doesnt deal in PROMISES..its a PRACTICAL WORKING PAPER that can WORK...to be IMPLEMENTED HERE and NOW...

A sikh of Guru does not aspire to get material rewards for becoming Gurmukh. Gurbani taechings are we have got this birth due to good deeds . So avail of it and remeber akal purakh and contemplate upon him. The purpose is to get rid of births and rebirths by realing akal purakh. of course good deeds form the basis of all this.

Guru sahib writes

aasaa mehlaa 5.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
bha-ee paraapat maanukh dayhuree-aa.
This human body has been given to you.

gobind milan kee ih tayree baree-aa.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

avar kaaj tayrai kitai na kaam.
Nothing else will work.

mil saaDhsangat bhaj kayval naam. ||1||
Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. ||1||

saraNjaam laag bhavjal taran kai.
Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean.

janam baritha jaat rang maa-i-aa kai. ||1|| rahaa-o.
You are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya. ||1||Pause||

jap tap sanjam Dharam na kamaa-i-aa.
I have not practiced meditation, self-discipline, self-restraint or righteous living.

sayvaa saaDh na jaani-aa har raa-i-aa.
I have not served the Holy; I have not acknowledged the Lord, my King.

kaho naanak ham neech karammaa.
Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!

saran paray kee raakho sarmaa. ||2||4||
O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary; please, preserve my honor! ||2||4||
soihlw rwgu gauVI dIpkI mhlw 1(12-10)