Sects Lets Talk About Radha Swami's

[badshah]

badshah ji

Your dedication to the path of Sikhi undivided devotion for Sri Guru Granth Sahib is coming through loud and clear. That is something I share with you. But one question, it is not clear how Seekr3kji is defending RadaSaomis. Could/would you elaborate?

You can see it by reading his posts........ if I put forward something against Rada Soamis (attack) then he says something in response (defence)

Example - I said we got naam simran (recitation of Wahegurus name)...... he said well how do you know that is the right naam - suggesting that one can only get the right naam from Rada Soamis (his defence)

 

[badshah]

Seeker3K - "You also asked about the miracles that other sadhus done. You wanted the proof of those miracles. Before we ask other for the proof we should look in our gurus stories. How many miracles have been associated with our Guru’s?
"

Why do you want to ask such a stupid question....... we do not look at our Guru for miricles specifically since they never pretented to...... but panja sahib is one, maybe Koda Rakhshas being turned into a good guy....... but the point is that they never went around saying come to me and I will heal you but instead said that God was everything, Father, mother, healer etc etc

 

[Seeker9]

You can see it by reading his posts........ if I put forward something against Rada Soamis (attack) then he says something in response (defence)

Example - I said we got naam simran (recitation of Wahegurus name)...... he said well how do you know that is the right naam - suggesting that one can only get the right naam from Rada Soamis (his defence)

Dear All
SSA!

I have been viewing the debate with interest

I can understand to a certain extent where Seeker3k Ji is coming from as I too am of the view if folk are happy on a particular path, then let them be. It's only when they start interfering with other paths or try to dominate them that there should be a problem.

I do not however subscribe to a viewpoint that could be summarised by a statement like "if you are not with us you are against us" (Not a statement from this thread incidentally)

I could be mistaken but that sort of viewpoint appears to be coming across with Badshah Ji assuming Seeker3K Ji is RS by his defence of their right to practice what they believe

Perhaps I am more tolerant of RS than others as I have had greater exposure to it and have hopefully been able to provide some alternative viewpoints to some of the rumours that have been circulating

If you look at those posts, you will also see I am critical of them as well so clearly I am not RS myself. But I not going to make them out to be something worse than I think they actually are either, (in terms of my own personal experiences and perceptions)

Ultimately, may I respectfully suggest if no middle ground can be found in this debate, perhaps posters could agree to disagree instead of inferring particular sympathies or motivations or making accusations along these lines

Hope I have not said anything to offend anyone. If I have please accept my apologies as that is not the intention

 

[badshah]

"by his defence of their right to practice what they believe" - therefore defending Rada Soamis - thanks for backing up my point.......

 

[Seeker9]

"by his defence of their right to practice what they believe" - therefore defending Rada Soamis - thanks for backing up my point.......

Well no, I don't believe I have backed up your point at all

Let's be clear on what this means

I referred to a "right"

One can defend a right to follow a path without being a believer or defender of the tenets of faith of that particular path

Sikhism allows for tolerance and respect for other paths doesn't it??

Seeker3k Ji has said on more than one occassion that he is not RS

As long as no one tries to infer he is that or anti-sikhi then I guess that is fine

Here's a fine quote that comes to mind:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-- The Friends of Voltaire, 1906

Or another way of looking at this, I have gay friends and will defend gay rights, but I am not gay!!! Nor am I anti-heterosexual!!

winkingmunda

 

[seeker3k]

Thank you seeker9,
The problem with badshah is he is so mad at me that he don’t read and understand what one says. To him I am liar. He do not believe me that I am not Radha Soami.
When person has his mind made up there is nothing can change his mind.
This is my last post on this topic.
He can believe what ever he want to.

 

[badshah]

Well no, I don't believe I have backed up your point at all

Let's be clear on what this means

I referred to a "right"

One can defend a right to follow a path without being a believer or defender of the tenets of faith of that particular path

Sikhism allows for tolerance and respect for other paths doesn't it??

Seeker3k Ji has said on more than one occassion that he is not RS

As long as no one tries to infer he is that or anti-sikhi then I guess that is fine

Here's a fine quote that comes to mind:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-- The Friends of Voltaire, 1906

Or another way of looking at this, I have gay friends and will defend gay rights, but I am not gay!!! Nor am I anti-heterosexual!!

winkingmunda

Wow, one minute you agree with me and then some time later you go and edit your post and disagree...... oh well, the two seekers do not know what they want to say......... what can one do when you speak to people who are not sure of what they are saying.........?

 

[badshah]

Thank you seeker9,
The problem with badshah is he is so mad at me that he don’t read and understand what one says. To him I am liar. He do not believe me that I am not Radha Soami.
When person has his mind made up there is nothing can change his mind.
This is my last post on this topic.
He can believe what ever he want to.

....but you cannot accept to yourself that you have defended Rada Swamis in this post......... nothing wrong with defending RS....... oh well...

 

[Seeker9]

Wow, one minute you agree with me and then some time later you go and edit your post and disagree...... oh well, the two seekers do not know what they want to say......... what can one do when you speak to people who are not sure of what they are saying.........?

Wow indeed!

Yes I did edit the post in the interests of clarification and it was a few minutes later after I had re-read and reflected on what I had written but I did not change my opinion

So please provide before and after examples to back up your accusation

May I also suggest you show more courtesy to other SPN'ers as you do come across as being quick to put them down, as demonstrated by your last response to me

You don't know me from Adam!

You are in no position to comment on what I know or what I don't know

 

[spnadmin]

One aspect of Rada Soami that has not been discussed very much if at all is the presence and the influence of babas. Babas are very important in the sangat and control/influence money, contributions, life style, and other aspects of sangat life. Perhaps not of the occasional visitor, but yes for the sangat member.

Babas?????????? What place to they have in our lives? How consistent is adherence to Baba Wisdom with Sikhism and gurmat?

 

[Seeker9]

One aspect of Rada Soami that has not been discussed very much if at all is the presence and the influence of babas. Babas are very important in the sangat and control/influence money, contributions, life style, and other aspects of sangat life. Perhaps not of the occasional visitor, but yes for the sangat member.

Babas?????????? What place to they have in our lives? How consistent is adherence to Baba Wisdom with Sikhism and gurmat?

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Dear Narayanjot Ji[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You are absolutely right! The concept of the Baba or “living Master” is central to these movements![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thanks for steering this thread in this direction and I look forward to some stimulating and balanced debate.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I guess ultimately it could be argued that Sant Mat is a neo gnostic movement: we all carry a bit of the Divine within us; our purpose is to merge with the original Creative Source; but you can only do that through a living teacher who imparts secret knowledge (naam), which will enable you to achieve this goal.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thus, most RS will tell you that the thing that makes their movement special is the fact that they have a living Master. Just as we would not expect our children to school themselves via textbooks, we cannot achieve enlightenment through reading Scriptures alone.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Personally I have some difficulty with the alleged divinity of the RS Masters for a number of reasons which I will summarise here in no particular order:[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1) Pre-succession life – basically, they go from ordinary individuals to Master's of the Way to Sachkhand overnight! Over time, the sangat will develop tales of how a Master showed signs of divinity from childhood or deep spiritual wisdom and knowledge beyond their years. But ultimately, they appear to have been no different from any of us up until that point.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If we look at the present Master of the RSSB path, I have heard RS talk of his first UK Satsang in 1990 and how poor he was as a preacher compared to his predecessor. However, if you were to look at him now, what a transformation! So clearly he has learned and grown spiritually over the last 20 years[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2) Keeping it in the family – just look across the variant RS lineages and you will see nepotism appears to be rife. Why? And why not women? The Chinese Sant Mat Master of the Ching Hai method is a woman. Mira Bai was a woman. I won't say any more on this point as someone reading this may attempt to make a similar argument about the Sikh Gurus. But whereas Sikhism had one pure unbroken line of Gurus, the RS lineages have a common root, then branch off individually and each one appears to have a bit of the family business about it.![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3) Variant lineages – like I said above, there is a common root and then the different RS paths branch off. Why? Well if you read up on it, there doesn't appear to be much going on spiritually. In fact, most of it appears to be driven by internal politics and empire building![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4) Dependency culture – the sangat become dependent on the Master treating him like a living God. I have very great difficulty with this. Don't get me wrong, as far as the present RSSB Master (Beas lineage) is concerned, I have listened to him a few times and I will confess here on this thread that I respect him....as a teacher of a spiritual path but not a living God! I have attended satsangs where the sangat will ask all manner of stupid questions that do them no credit and probably account for the negative views that the non- RS have of them. But the responses they get from their Master tend to be refreshingly succint, down to earth and containing good spiritual advice.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But ultimately, I do not subscribe to the view that a living Master is necessary.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, I do believe in personal endeavour and making your own spiritual progress through meditation.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sikhism does not require a Baba ...it just needs a disciplined mind to apply oneself to the Scriptures
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, I've rambled on a bit there and apologies for the length of this reply![/FONT]




:happysingh:

 

[badshah]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Dear Narayanjot Ji[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]You are absolutely right! The concept of the Baba or “living Master” is central to these movements![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thanks for steering this thread in this direction and I look forward to some stimulating and balanced debate.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I guess ultimately it could be argued that Sant Mat is a neo gnostic movement: we all carry a bit of the Divine within us; our purpose is to merge with the original Creative Source; but you can only do that through a living teacher who imparts secret knowledge (naam), which will enable you to achieve this goal.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thus, most RS will tell you that the thing that makes their movement special is the fact that they have a living Master. Just as we would not expect our children to school themselves via textbooks, we cannot achieve enlightenment through reading Scriptures alone.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Personally I have some difficulty with the alleged divinity of the RS Masters for a number of reasons which I will summarise here in no particular order:[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1) Pre-succession life – basically, they go from ordinary individuals to Master's of the Way to Sachkhand overnight! Over time, the sangat will develop tales of how a Master showed signs of divinity from childhood or deep spiritual wisdom and knowledge beyond their years. But ultimately, they appear to have been no different from any of us up until that point.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If we look at the present Master of the RSSB path, I have heard RS talk of his first UK Satsang in 1990 and how poor he was as a preacher compared to his predecessor. However, if you were to look at him now, what a transformation! So clearly he has learned and grown spiritually over the last 20 years[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2) Keeping it in the family – just look across the variant RS lineages and you will see nepotism appears to be rife. Why? And why not women? The Chinese Sant Mat Master of the Ching Hai method is a woman. Mira Bai was a woman. I won't say any more on this point as someone reading this may attempt to make a similar argument about the Sikh Gurus. But whereas Sikhism had one pure unbroken line of Gurus, the RS lineages have a common root, then branch off individually and each one appears to have a bit of the family business about it.![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3) Variant lineages – like I said above, there is a common root and then the different RS paths branch off. Why? Well if you read up on it, there doesn't appear to be much going on spiritually. In fact, most of it appears to be driven by internal politics and empire building![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4) Dependency culture – the sangat become dependent on the Master treating him like a living God. I have very great difficulty with this. Don't get me wrong, as far as the present RSSB Master (Beas lineage) is concerned, I have listened to him a few times and I will confess here on this thread that I respect him....as a teacher of a spiritual path but not a living God! I have attended satsangs where the sangat will ask all manner of stupid questions that do them no credit and probably account for the negative views that the non- RS have of them. But the responses they get from their Master tend to be refreshingly succint, down to earth and containing good spiritual advice.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But ultimately, I do not subscribe to the view that a living Master is necessary. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, I do believe in personal endeavour and making your own spiritual progress through meditation. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sikhism does not require a Baba ...it just needs a disciplined mind to apply oneself to the Scriptures[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, I've rambled on a bit there and apologies for the length of this reply![/FONT]




:happysingh:

Are these babas worshipped in any way?

Thanks

 

[Seeker9]

Hi Badshah Ji

Perhaps you could expand on what you mean by worship but I would be inclined to answer yes, a lot of RS do worship their Master and can have lots of photos of him and previous Masters in their homes which is essentially a form of Idolatary

When they meditate, their objective is to see their Master in his radiant form as opposed to his physical form

This is what they believe

It's not what I believe

 

[badshah]

Hi Badshah Ji

Perhaps you could expand on what you mean by worship but I would be inclined to answer yes, a lot of RS do worship their Master and can have lots of photos of him and previous Masters in their homes which is essentially a form of Idolatary

When they meditate, their objective is to see their Master in his radiant form as opposed to his physical form

This is what they believe

It's not what I believe

I dont know the exact lines of paat for what I am about to say but maybe someone else can fill in the gaps..... basically in SIkhism it says that Issa (Jesus) came and everyone started worshipping him so he failed and then about Idol worship in Hinduism is also prohibited...... so if RS which is one of the most earliest kind of movements even looked at the SGGSJ then would the babas have not prohibited the worship of themselves. I say this because Sikhism is one of the newest religions and we had a chance to look at all the other religions over the course of 10 gurus and come up with a refined religion..... so why would RS ignore the sins of worshipping a man where there has been shown clear eveidence that this is wrong........?

Isn't the fact that worshipping the baba in it self evidence to suggest that the cult is already wrong?

I am sure these people do a lot of good for people but in this new age nothing is for free.... so there must be a trade off somewhere.....

 

[seeker3k]

Babas

Babas play very good and some bad part in our society. When Nanak was on earth he was also called baba Nanak. It is always the babas who start the religion. When the numbers get bigger then they are called guru. Weather we like it or not baba’s are going to be here till the end of the time. According to some it maybe soon.
As a Sikh I should keep my mind open to every channel where I can get the knowledge.
It is wrong to say the door is closed to wisdom. Christian claim there is no other Christ. Jesus is the one. Look around how many other religions have sprung up since Jesus died.

 

[Seeker9]

I dont know the exact lines of paat for what I am about to say but maybe someone else can fill in the gaps..... basically in SIkhism it says that Issa (Jesus) came and everyone started worshipping him so he failed and then about Idol worship in Hinduism is also prohibited...... so if RS which is one of the most earliest kind of movements even looked at the Sri Guru Granth SahibJ then would the babas have not prohibited the worship of themselves. I say this because Sikhism is one of the newest religions and we had a chance to look at all the other religions over the course of 10 gurus and come up with a refined religion..... so why would RS ignore the sins of worshipping a man where there has been shown clear eveidence that this is wrong........?

Isn't the fact that worshipping the baba in it self evidence to suggest that the cult is already wrong?

Dear Badshah Ji
You are absolutely correct
The RSSB Baba has also stressed this. One example is that he has only allowed 2 official portraits in 20 years whereas his predecessor had dozens
The sangat unfortunately often does it's own things contrary to their Master's teachings

 

[seeker3k]

Dear seeker9,

You made 4 point about the RS. If you look at the Sikh gurus how it happened. You will see it is no different then RS. How the 2nd and rest of the gurus manipulated the sanngat.
There were attempt made get the gadi.
There is no spirituality in any ism. All the ism are for money and power. The sangat is innocent and sangat is being abused by people in power.

However, I do believe in personal endeavour and making your own spiritual progress through meditation


How the meditation should be done? This meditation has been done by people from the start of the time. In Sikhism how can I do the meditation?

What you wrote as you said it is your own opinion.

Some time I wonder how many Gods there are in the world. I think no 2 person will agree to one God. Even in same religion 2 men will have some difference in their belief. They will agree in the concept but not in every aspect of God.

As a man: can not believe in second best religion. His religion is the BEST.
This is where the problem comes in. Man forces his religion on others.

Spiritually is individual not in group. In group we get motivation. All the scriptures are like salt water. It can not satisfy the thirst rather it will make one thirstier.

 

[Seeker9]

Dear seeker9,

You made 4 point about the RS. If you look at the Sikh gurus how it happened. You will see it is no different then RS. How the 2nd and rest of the gurus manipulated the sanngat.
There were attempt made get the gadi.
There is no spirituality in any ism. All the ism are for money and power. The sangat is innocent and sangat is being abused by people in power.

However, I do believe in personal endeavour and making your own spiritual progress through meditation


How the meditation should be done? This meditation has been done by people from the start of the time. In Sikhism how can I do the meditation?

What you wrote as you said it is your own opinion.

Some time I wonder how many Gods there are in the world. I think no 2 person will agree to one God. Even in same religion 2 men will have some difference in their belief. They will agree in the concept but not in every aspect of God.

As a man: can not believe in second best religion. His religion is the BEST.
This is where the problem comes in. Man forces his religion on others.

Spiritually is individual not in group. In group we get motivation. All the scriptures are like salt water. It can not satisfy the thirst rather it will make one thirstier.

Dear Seeker 3k Ji

There are a number of ways to do meditation but the results can vary

I believe it also requires significant practice and personal discipline

I admit I am a complete novice in this area which should be a lifetime endeavour, so am unable to give you more practical advice - sorry

However you could regard SGGSJ as an instruction manual for this purpose

The point I was making in my last post was about personal effort as opposed to putting your faith in a Baba and relying on them to help you progress spiritually

 

[seeker3k]

Dear seeker9,

I thank you for the honest reply. As I said before in my posts. I don’t understand the whole Granth. I have been out of India for more then 50 years. I hardly wrote back to my childhood friends in Gurmukhi. I can read but Granth is written in slokes some in different language. What I can understand from the Granth is gurus said over and over to do the naam simran karo. It the blessing of the guru that give to the naam. What blessing mean to me is when some one give some thing to a person on his own. It is not asked for it. When I ask for some thing from guru or any one it become begging elm. In Granth is repeated over n over gurparsad not elm. My dilemma is how Granth can give me naam by its own.
My intention is not to insult any one’s belief. I respect every one’s belief. I am just explaining what I think.
Granth also give instruction how to live life based on the truth.

Meditation is a technique to control the mind, thought. It is like taking gee from the milk. There is a process. With that process one can take gee from milk. With out the prosess one can not take gee out of the milk. We have to know the prosess how to control the mind and thought. It is the thought that control us. We have no control over our thoughts.
Meditation can help us to control our thoughts.

There is only one rule to live by. Do not think to harm any life. Before we can harm any one we must have thought to harm some one. It is the thought that make us do good or bad.

Just by reciting waheguru can not do any thing? No matter how melodious we sing it.
We have concept that when we say waheguru or Ram the God is listening to us. God never told any one what is his name. So can he will hear when we recite Ram or any other name. God is not sitting some where he is look at us and hearing us.

Those who want to recite the name of their god let them. Let the other who want to seek the truth do what they want to. Most of us can not handle the truth and we do not want to know the truth. Why are we afraid to learn from some one who is not Sikh?

This where the babas comes in. They talk one on one. If I want to know what is written in Granth I have to ask bhai ji or granthi or kathawach. Dosent the bhai ji become baba ji? Most of the time I have seen so called bhai ji don’t even know the meaning of the bani. How can they guide us?
We can not hold the monopoly on the God or spirituality.

If any one out there knows how to meditate from the Granth please tell me.

 

[findingmyway]

Why do they call themselves Sikh? Although yes a religion was formed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji which then evolved over 9 gurus to a saint soldier religion that was sealed as a faith called Sikhism, they only believe in the first 5 gurus so how can they be Sikh. You would have to believe in all 10 gurus, especially the 10th since he gave us the uniform.

Actually to be a Sikh you have to believe all 11 Guru's.

I have no issues with Radhaswami's per se. However, I do have issues with them trying to come under the umbrella of Sikhism as they are not-they are separate as shown clearly in this thread and others.