Meaning Of This Shabad Please Ang 388

[prakash.s.bagga]

ASTROBOY Ji,
From Gurbanee we can at least know what the MITHAEE is ? Certainly no one can tell the TASTE of this MITHAEE.that is for idividual to experience and smile like GOONGA smiles after consuming the MITHAEE.
But we always seem to be trying for the TASTE rather than to know the MITHAEE
that is why we keep moving in circles of different understandings.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Astroboy]

But we always seem to be trying for the TASTE rather than to know the MITHAEE
that is why we keep moving in circles of different understandings.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Could you provide an analogy on your above statement because I don't quite understand.

 

[passingby]

Prakash ji,

Please explain your point already, ...please! I have been reading your posts and expecting that soon you will explain the points you are referring to, such difference between Naamu and Name.
I request you to please don't make the readers go guessing, and waiting. It would be so great if you explain the point on hand in one plain, expository post.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Could you provide an analogy on your above statement because I don't quite understand.

My point is related to what GuRu ji is telling us to search. We are not recognising that.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash ji,

Please explain your point already, ...please! I have been reading your posts and expecting that soon you will explain the points you are referring to, such difference between Naamu and Name.
I request you to please don't make the readers go guessing, and waiting. It would be so great if you explain the point on hand in one plain, expository post.

I appreciate your concern .In fact this difference is fundamentallly related with the grammar of Gurbanee words.
I have always been posing the three forms of words as GuRoo-GuRu and GuR.
You should sincerely try to understand the Basic grammar of these three words .This also is posted in detail in the Gurbanee Grammar thread and even in several other threads.
Once you understand this you are definitely going to get the difference between NAME and NAAMu.
As a hint you should understand that NAME is always Singular and Single Number whereas NAAMu is also SINGULAR but for a pair of two NOUN words.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Taranjeet singh]

Passingby ji,

I share with you in brief that I understand of naam. Post is only exploratory and not comprehensive in any manner.

In Gurbani we have reference to Naam ,Nao and Name of Lord./Creator. Sometimes, these are used, by translators as synonyms only. However, there is tangible difference between Naam and Name. I have intentionally omitted Nao as it is a variant of Naam/Name.

Name would imply the name of the Lord as is conventionally understood. Guru Granth sahib employs many names of creator including Ram, hari, Mukund, krishna etc.

To understand the exact meaning one shall have to refer carefully to various tuks of bani.Let us start with Jap ji sahib that is the opening verse of Dhan Sri Guru Granth sahib.

In Jap ji sahib we have reference to ‘Nao’and ‘Naam’.There are few attributes of the same given in Jap ji sahib e.g. He is true and so is his name[Nao] and it should be uttered with great love and reverence.[Jap ji-2-3] The entire universe and creation is manifestation of His Nao[Jeta keeta teta nao.Jap ji,4-9] Nao is all pervasive.[Jap Ji 4-10]He is greatest of all and so is his nao.[Jap ji ,5-1] In fact Nao is greater than him as well. Only one who has reached a certain stage can know him. In fact he has to be as great as He himself is. In slok at the conclusion of Jap ji sahib we get the word Naam.i.e Jini Naam dhiyaya Gaye Mashkat Ghal, Nanak de mukh ujle ket chutti Naal

Translators have translated Nao as Name.Let us see the meaning of Nao

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
(1) ਨਾਮ। (2) ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਨਾ, ਨਹਾਉਣਾ। (3) ਵਡਿਆਈ, ਸ਼ੋਭਾ, ਨਾਂ। (4) (ਨਾਂ) (ਨੳਮੲ)। (5) ਨਿਆਂ, ਨਿਆਉ ਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ, (ਭਾਵ) ਨਿਰਣਾ, ਫੈਸਲਾ। (6) ਕਿਸ਼ਤੀ, ਬੇੜੀ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਊਚੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਊਚਾ ਨਾਉ॥ {ਜਪੁ ੧, ੨੪:੧੨ (5)}। ਅਜਹੁ ਸੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰ ਮਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ॥ {ਸਲੋ ਕਬ, ੩੯:੨ (1366)}। ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤ



Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia
ਫ. "ਨਾਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰੈ". (ਵਾਰ ਰਾਮ ੩).ਸੰ. ਨੌਕਾ. ਨਾਵ. ਕਿਸ਼ਤੀ. "ਭਵਜਲ ਬਿਖਮ ਡਰਾਉ, ਗੁਰੁ ਤਾਰੇ ਹਰਿਨਾਉ". (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੧)। (2) ਨਾਮ. "ਨਾਉ ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਹਸੀਐ". (ਵਾਰ ਆਸਾ)। (3) ਸਨਾਨ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਨ੍ਹਾਉਣਾ. "ਅੰਤਰਿਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ". (ਜਪੁ)। (4) ਨ੍ਯਾਯ. ਇਨਸਾ
Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com


http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਉ



On the other hand Naam is used in specific sense. Its meaning is:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ (ਸ਼ਬਦਾਰਥ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ। (2) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ, ਹਰੀ। (3) ਨਾਂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਅੰਧੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਏਹ ਨ ਓਹੁ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੩, ੧*:੨ (15)}। ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ॥ {ਜਪੁ ੧, ੧੨:੫ (3)}। ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੧੭, ੧*:੨ (20)}। ਦੂਖੁ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਰ

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia
ਦੇਖੋ, ਨਾਮ. "ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ". (ਜਪੁ)। (2) ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ, "ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪਿਆ". (ਬਾਵਨ).
Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਮੁ

Thus Nao and Naam are one and same thing. This naam cannot be realized by one self of his own efforts. One has to work as per Gurmat and when the Guru is pleased, one receives the Lord's Naam.[146-1] Guru Nanak dev ji has further shown the significance of Naam,” I am forever a sacrifice to the one who listens and hears, who understands and believes in the Name/Naam.”[152-9] Naam goes along with the mortal till the end[152-10] It is through Naam that we become desireless or get complete control over our desires.[152-16]Those who are committed to the Naam, see the world as transient phenomenon.[153-1] Without the realization of the Naam, the house of the body and the store of the mind are empty.[153-1] Naam is also stated to be Nectar.[153-6]Naam is obtained only when there is heart felt love for Lord.[158-19]

With the small introduction it would be clear the nao and naam are synonym and when Akal is pleased with the devotee he is blessed with naam and Guru sahibaan are divine intermediaries who give naam to the seeker. The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is collected in the vessel of the mind. Nothing is collected if the vessel is upside-down. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Naam abides within the mind.[158-14,15]

Naam is the essence of Sikhism. Sikhi is also, therefore , called as Nam Marg. There are various attributes of Naam. Naam is also mentioned as 'vakhar' and 'sabad' in Gurbani. It is the only mode of knowing the Creator. We receive it when he casts his Glance of Grace.

Kindly ignore the mistakes.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Taranjeet Singh ji thanks for your post.

One thing if I may observe is the following. In common usage when someone mentions someone's/something/etc. name, we immediately get a picture of the aspects we know of,

• Where lives/belongs
• Where works/what delivers
• What does
• Who are relations
• What is good about ....
• What is bad about ....
• What I don't know
• ............... and so on

So for me at least, the name is just a marker of all the information, understanding, knowledge we have about the referenced object, person, concept, persona, etc.

Can we have a name reference when we don't fully understand? Of course we can. Does the name change when we know more? No it is the same. So Waheguru, creator, etc., they don't change, our understanding and knowledge increase. Is there a magic moment when we reach a level of critical and as much as possible knowing state of Waheguru? There probably is and it for sure requires Guru's grace or Gurparsad as referenced in SGGS.

Just some thoughts,

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

TARANJAEET SINGH Ji,
With all respectful consideration to your views mentioned in your post I can only say the considerations are non grammatical therefore it is not possible to get the understanding of the meanings of the word NAAu (it is not NAO) and the word NAAMu.

In Gurbanee we have only three references as NAAu,NAAMu and NAAMA.
An interesting observation in Gurbani is that you would come across as HARi NAAMu,RAM NAAMu and HARi NAAu you will not find the reference as RAM NAAu anywhere in SGGS ji. Why snce you analyse this you are going to get the understanding of the difference between NAAu and NAAMu

Further we can see that how grammatically NAAu and NAAMu are different.

NAAu is SINGULAR and its PLURAL is NAAV
NAAMu is SINGULAR and its PLURAL is NAAM

The word NAAU is for place ,person or thing as SINGLE whereas NAAMu is the reference for GuR JoTi/PRABHu JOTi only. e.g The word RAM as Singular can be used to refer any person whereas NAAMu for the word RAM is <RAM.RAM>.
You can make an observation that NAAMu is always a pair of two NOUN words whereas NOUN is always a Single word.

You can find in Gurbannee there can be as many NAAM u as NAAu words.Thus every NAAu word has its respective NAAMu

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Now...

The Name is strange thing as you could add or subtract from the the actual thing and still have the same name. For example, I would still be Bhagat whether I lived here or in India, whether I painted or not, etc. I could grow in size, lose a limb or two, cut my hair, put on a larger turban, change my clothes, my skin colour, get a metal heart, different personality, etc and still be Bhagat. I could in fact die! and still be called Bhagat. So Name is the constant in the change. It is the constant of the changing form.

Ram is the constant of the world. Whereas the world is constantly changing, Ram is the eternal unchanging. Hence why the name of the eternal unchanging, Ram, is to be contemplated.

Now in fact, the changing world (whose constant is Ram) is unimportant. The Truth which was True in all ages, the name Ram, is of utmost importance to a Sikh. What the name represents is illusory, only the Name is true. One wonders, "Bhagat isn't that shallow? Don't the qualities, the attributes, of the Name make the Name what it is? How can they be illusory while the Name is real?"

The painter is known by the painting but once you know the painter's painting, and you come to know that the painter. Then the painting does not matter as much. You are more interested in what the painter is up to rather than any particular painting. It is all about the painter. Sure the attributes, behind the Name, make up the Name. But once you know the Name, the attributes do not matter. Then it becomes all about the Name.

Another example is a brand name X. You know a certain brand is going to provide you with quality shoes. But once you experience that the quality shoes came from that brand Name, once you go out looking for high-quality shoes and found that X makes good shoes. Next time you go looking for shoes, you simply go look for X.

Now it's actually more accurate to say that the painter and painting merge together. The quality shoes and brand name are one. Recognized through recognizing the painter and brand name.

This makes way for the repetitive uttering of "Ram, Ram" that some people dislike. The scriptures say do simran of "Ram", think about "Ram", meditate on "Ram". Yes, it is the name you are focusing simraning, contemplating and meditating on. This is done to get the mind's attention to the unchanging. Only in a constant repetition can a constant be recognized.

Now a rosary simply helps to keep the attention on the exercise. It also keeps the hands busy. Our hands always want to do things or to touch things, they are full of energy and vitality. So to create a comfortable flow of energy a rosary helps. If no rosary is available it helps to get the thumb and the fingers in touch for better flow of energy. See for yourself. Feel the energy and vitality in your hand while you perform various tasks. You'll see the difference early on.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

The answers to all questions about NAAu and NAAMu lies in knowing what is RAM NAAMu according to Gurbanee.
One can see that RAM NAAMu accordingto Gurbanee is HARi HARi> .... Not RAM.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Passingby ji,

I share with you in brief that I understand of naam. Post is only exploratory and not comprehensive in any manner.

In Gurbani we have reference to Naam ,Nao and Name of Lord./Creator. Sometimes, these are used, by translators as synonyms only. However, there is tangible difference between Naam and Name. I have intentionally omitted Nao as it is a variant of Naam/Name.

Name would imply the name of the Lord as is conventionally understood. Guru Granth sahib employs many names of creator including Ram, hari, Mukund, krishna etc.

To understand the exact meaning one shall have to refer carefully to various tuks of bani.Let us start with Jap ji sahib that is the opening verse of Dhan Sri Guru Granth sahib.

In Jap ji sahib we have reference to ‘Nao’and ‘Naam’.There are few attributes of the same given in Jap ji sahib e.g. He is true and so is his name[Nao] and it should be uttered with great love and reverence.[Jap ji-2-3] The entire universe and creation is manifestation of His Nao[Jeta keeta teta nao.Jap ji,4-9] Nao is all pervasive.[Jap Ji 4-10]He is greatest of all and so is his nao.[Jap ji ,5-1] In fact Nao is greater than him as well. Only one who has reached a certain stage can know him. In fact he has to be as great as He himself is. In slok at the conclusion of Jap ji sahib we get the word Naam.i.e Jini Naam dhiyaya Gaye Mashkat Ghal, Nanak de mukh ujle ket chutti Naal

Translators have translated Nao as Name.Let us see the meaning of Nao

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
(1) ਨਾਮ। (2) ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਨਾ, ਨਹਾਉਣਾ। (3) ਵਡਿਆਈ, ਸ਼ੋਭਾ, ਨਾਂ। (4) (ਨਾਂ) (ਨੳਮੲ)। (5) ਨਿਆਂ, ਨਿਆਉ ਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ, (ਭਾਵ) ਨਿਰਣਾ, ਫੈਸਲਾ। (6) ਕਿਸ਼ਤੀ, ਬੇੜੀ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਊਚੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਊਚਾ ਨਾਉ॥ {ਜਪੁ ੧, ੨੪:੧੨ (5)}। ਅਜਹੁ ਸੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰ ਮਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ॥ {ਸਲੋ ਕਬ, ੩੯:੨ (1366)}। ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤ



Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia
ਫ. "ਨਾਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰੈ". (ਵਾਰ ਰਾਮ ੩).ਸੰ. ਨੌਕਾ. ਨਾਵ. ਕਿਸ਼ਤੀ. "ਭਵਜਲ ਬਿਖਮ ਡਰਾਉ, ਗੁਰੁ ਤਾਰੇ ਹਰਿਨਾਉ". (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੧)। (2) ਨਾਮ. "ਨਾਉ ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਹਸੀਐ". (ਵਾਰ ਆਸਾ)। (3) ਸਨਾਨ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਨ੍ਹਾਉਣਾ. "ਅੰਤਰਿਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ". (ਜਪੁ)। (4) ਨ੍ਯਾਯ. ਇਨਸਾ
Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com


http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਉ



On the other hand Naam is used in specific sense. Its meaning is:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ (ਸ਼ਬਦਾਰਥ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ। (2) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ, ਹਰੀ। (3) ਨਾਂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਅੰਧੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਏਹ ਨ ਓਹੁ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੩, ੧*:੨ (15)}। ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ॥ {ਜਪੁ ੧, ੧੨:੫ (3)}। ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੧੭, ੧*:੨ (20)}। ਦੂਖੁ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਰ

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia
ਦੇਖੋ, ਨਾਮ. "ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ". (ਜਪੁ)। (2) ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ, "ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪਿਆ". (ਬਾਵਨ).
Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਮੁ

Thus Nao and Naam are one and same thing. This naam cannot be realized by one self of his own efforts. One has to work as per Gurmat and when the Guru is pleased, one receives the Lord's Naam.[146-1] Guru Nanak dev ji has further shown the significance of Naam,” I am forever a sacrifice to the one who listens and hears, who understands and believes in the Name/Naam.”[152-9] Naam goes along with the mortal till the end[152-10] It is through Naam that we become desireless or get complete control over our desires.[152-16]Those who are committed to the Naam, see the world as transient phenomenon.[153-1] Without the realization of the Naam, the house of the body and the store of the mind are empty.[153-1] Naam is also stated to be Nectar.[153-6]Naam is obtained only when there is heart felt love for Lord.[158-19]

With the small introduction it would be clear the nao and naam are synonym and when Akal is pleased with the devotee he is blessed with naam and Guru sahibaan are divine intermediaries who give naam to the seeker. The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is collected in the vessel of the mind. Nothing is collected if the vessel is upside-down. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Naam abides within the mind.[158-14,15]

Naam is the essence of Sikhism. Sikhi is also, therefore , called as Nam Marg. There are various attributes of Naam. Naam is also mentioned as 'vakhar' and 'sabad' in Gurbani. It is the only mode of knowing the Creator. We receive it when he casts his Glance of Grace.

Kindly ignore the mistakes.

Our Gurbanee dictionaries or even Mahan Kosh does not give any information about the grammar of the words.
Out of so many reference meanings what is correct for Gurbanee interpretation how you are going to decide.
This the you are going to make use of wide choice whereas Gurbanee requires specific meaning for specific word as per context of its application.
I have personally gone thru many tikkas and many dictionaries the problem is same.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Our Gurbanee dictionaries or even Mahan Kosh does not give any information about the grammar of the words.
Out of so many reference meanings what is correct for Gurbanee interpretation how you are going to decide.
This the you are going to make use of wide choice whereas Gurbanee requires specific meaning for specific word as per context of its application.
I have personally gone thru many tikkas and many dictionaries the problem is same.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash.S.Bagga ji I regretfully disagree with your approach to always complicate things beyond recognition and necessity. All your specifics or Hari as exclusive to the use of the following are basically your own manipulation. The following and these words don't need your Ram, Hari, etc., to be given meaning,

• ਨਾਮੁ (nām-eu)

• ਨਾਮ (nām)

• ਨਾਉ (nā▫o)

These are used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and of course the context determines their application. Your deductions and generalizations are basically false and misrepresentations.

All your emphasis and mis-guidance to restrict these to HAR, HARi, RAAM, etc., is distortions to drive towards Hinduvta linkages and meanings. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses understood meanings of deities as metaphors and you insist on trying to make them something else. I find it distasteful. Taranjeet Singh ji wrote pretty accurate and clearly.

I do know that none of dictionaries, books or others exist to totally suit your purpose as you have berated Mahan Kosh, Prof. Sahib Singh ji and started banding about Talwara ji's work. I am sure once someone uses Talwara ji's work you will find something else to criticize.

Remember Guru ji did not prescribe any such books for understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so you are no one to do so. There are aids, cheat sheets, general rules, but these are not of necessity only of need to those who do choose. That is totally your issue so please stop from confusing and making such as issues for others.

You are manufacturing issues where there are none.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash.S.Bagga ji I regretfully disagree with your approach to always complicate things beyond recognition and necessity. All your specifics or Hari as exclusive to the use of the following are basically your own manipulation. The following and these words don't need your Ram, Hari, etc., to be given meaning,

• ਨਾਮੁ (nām-eu)

• ਨਾਮ (nām)

• ਨਾਉ (nā▫o)

These are used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and of course the context determines their application. Your deductions and generalizations are basically false and misrepresentations.

All your emphasis and mis-guidance to restrict these to HAR, HARi, RAAM, etc., is distortions to drive towards Hinduvta linkages and meanings. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses understood meanings of deities as metaphors and you insist on trying to make them something else. I find it distasteful. Taranjeet Singh ji wrote pretty accurate and clearly.

I do know that none of dictionaries, books or others exist to totally suit your purpose as you have berated Mahan Kosh, Prof. Sahib Singh ji and started banding about Talwara ji's work. I am sure once someone uses Talwara ji's work you will find something else to criticize.

Remember Guru ji did not prescribe any such books for understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so you are no one to do so. There are aids, cheat sheets, general rules, but these are not of necessity only of need to those who do choose. That is totally your issue so please stop from confusing and making such as issues for others.

You are manufacturing issues where there are none.

Sat Sri Akal.

Your disagreement is not going to change the very facts of Gurbanee.
You may like it or not
It seems that some clear observations of Gurbanee are difficult to understand and digest.This is the basic problem.
It is surprising we are getting uncomfortable with correct application of grammatical indications given by our GuRu ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Here is a Quote for your consideration
(SATiGuRu Dataa RAM NAAMu KA Horu Data Koee Nahee pp1258-1259 sggs

So first recognise SatiGuRu in Gurbanee then only you can get What is RAM NAAMu.

Many Many thanks for disagreeing and for your valuable suggestions.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash.S.Bagga ji I regretfully disagree with your approach to always complicate things beyond recognition and necessity. All your specifics or Hari as exclusive to the use of the following are basically your own manipulation. The following and these words don't need your Ram, Hari, etc., to be given meaning,

• ਨਾਮੁ (nām-eu)

• ਨਾਮ (nām)

• ਨਾਉ (nā▫o)

These are used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and of course the context determines their application. Your deductions and generalizations are basically false and misrepresentations.

All your emphasis and mis-guidance to restrict these to HAR, HARi, RAAM, etc., is distortions to drive towards Hinduvta linkages and meanings. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses understood meanings of deities as metaphors and you insist on trying to make them something else. I find it distasteful. Taranjeet Singh ji wrote pretty accurate and clearly.

I do know that none of dictionaries, books or others exist to totally suit your purpose as you have berated Mahan Kosh, Prof. Sahib Singh ji and started banding about Talwara ji's work. I am sure once someone uses Talwara ji's work you will find something else to criticize.

Remember Guru ji did not prescribe any such books for understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so you are no one to do so. There are aids, cheat sheets, general rules, but these are not of necessity only of need to those who do choose. That is totally your issue so please stop from confusing and making such as issues for others.

You are manufacturing issues where there are none.

Sat Sri Akal.

Better you try to understand the meanings of the following words given in Gurbanee as HARiiNAAMu, RAM NAAMu and HARi RAM NAAMu.
You can not close your eyes from the words of Gurbanee.I think since your mind is always preoccupied with phobia of Hindi=uism you are unable to recognise and accept what actually GuRu ji is saying.

This is what I feel from your critic comments .

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Astroboy]

My point is related to what GuRu ji is telling us to search. We are not recognising that.
Prakash.s.Bagga

We are not recognising that - does that include you yourself or that you already understood and are trying very hard for us Moorakhs to understand. If that's the case, please make us understand it in a child-like manner. In baby steps. We don't quite understand grammar. For us grammar is like an uphill task so please don't put us through it.

Do you find it difficult to explain what Namu is (in words because it is the experiencing of it which creates the understanding).

 

[Luckysingh]

Our Gurbanee dictionaries or even Mahan Kosh does not give any information about the grammar of the words.
Out of so many reference meanings what is correct for Gurbanee interpretation how you are going to decide.
This the you are going to make use of wide choice whereas Gurbanee requires specific meaning for specific word as per context of its application.
I have personally gone thru many tikkas and many dictionaries the problem is same.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash Ji,
You seem to be quite persistant that many tikkas and translations have a problem due to this lack of consideration for grammar.

You have caused many of us and myself to start double, triple, quadruple checking our interpretations.
I have to agree with Ambarsaria ji that you seem to be creating an unnecessary problem for some of us.
I, myself have in the last few weeks started working on my vocab and doing my own translations where I can.
I have made a few attempts on the Sukhmani sahib thread that Ambarsaria ji kindly compiles for us.
Now, in doing these, along with the tikkas and Prof.Sahib ji's input, we can all deduce our own intepretations.
I have been using a method not so advanced as my punjabi and gurmukhi is very limited, but my approach has been working word for word and then getting each sentence back together, as this is the way that I learnt french, german and spanish.
Amazingly, I do sometimes get different words as many gurmukhi words have multiple applications in english, but overall, the essence and message is always the SAME. It's just that for me, my way makes it easier for me to perceive the message from a shabad.

Saying all this, I really can't understand why you are being critical for all these scholars that have put in a lot of work in to giving us this gift.
I have not yet come across any message in gurbani by them that is different in any sense.
You seem to keep putting a huge question mark on the gurbani in the sense- is it what it seems??
If it's not what it seems, it is much more than what we may see at first, but it's not in any way something ELSE in disguise, is it ??

I kindly request that you explain to all of us who are at disadvantage here, with some relevent shabads and tikkas, and then give us your valid message that is supposed to be different and more accurate considering the grammar applied.
This is the only way, we can come to some conclusion here.

Please, take your time and give us a few valid examples that you can find. Put us all out of this misery, thanks.

I look forward to your 'valid' reply.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

We are not recognising that - does that include you yourself or that you already understood and are trying very hard for us Moorakhs to understand. If that's the case, please make us understand it in a child-like manner. In baby steps. We don't quite understand grammar. For us grammar is like an uphill task so please don't put us through it.

Do you find it difficult to explain what Namu is (in words because it is the experiencing of it which creates the understanding).

I am simply presenting the observstions from Gurbanee.I think you are finding that difficult to understand.It does not require any explanation.

If any one feels that grammar is an uphill task then one should first acquire the understanding of grammar from any available book.
That is the only option.Child requires spoon feeding which is not possible .
You have to learn yourself.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash Ji,
You seem to be quite persistant that many tikkas and translations have a problem due to this lack of consideration for grammar.

You have caused many of us and myself to start double, triple, quadruple checking our interpretations.
I have to agree with Ambarsaria ji that you seem to be creating an unnecessary problem for some of us.
I, myself have in the last few weeks started working on my vocab and doing my own translations where I can.
I have made a few attempts on the Sukhmani sahib thread that Ambarsaria ji kindly compiles for us.
Now, in doing these, along with the tikkas and Prof.Sahib ji's input, we can all deduce our own intepretations.
I have been using a method not so advanced as my punjabi and gurmukhi is very limited, but my approach has been working word for word and then getting each sentence back together, as this is the way that I learnt french, german and spanish.
Amazingly, I do sometimes get different words as many gurmukhi words have multiple applications in english, but overall, the essence and message is always the SAME. It's just that for me, my way makes it easier for me to perceive the message from a shabad.

Saying all this, I really can't understand why you are being critical for all these scholars that have put in a lot of work in to giving us this gift.
I have not yet come across any message in gurbani by them that is different in any sense.
You seem to keep putting a huge question mark on the gurbani in the sense- is it what it seems??
If it's not what it seems, it is much more than what we may see at first, but it's not in any way something ELSE in disguise, is it ??

I kindly request that you explain to all of us who are at disadvantage here, with some relevent shabads and tikkas, and then give us your valid message that is supposed to be different and more accurate considering the grammar applied.
This is the only way, we can come to some conclusion here.

Please, take your time and give us a few valid examples that you can find. Put us all out of this misery, thanks.

I look forward to your 'valid' reply.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

You should understand what is RAM NAMMu according to Gurbanee.
I have given you my observation from Gurbanee that RAM NAAmu is not the word RAM.
Now it is for you to get it confirmed yourself fronm SGGS because confirmation from SGGS would me more convincing for you than you would be knowing from any person .
Mine are only observations for ones clarification by oneself.
If you are not familiar with grammar or you dont have will to understand that there is some grammar in Gurbanee that should be known then you should only not put any effortin this direction.
So dont get disturbed from what you feel comfortable.
Henceforth you should not find any of my post related to grammar of Gurbanee .
But I am sure a time will come when people will think about this because
without application of grammar understanding it is just not possible to understand the true meanings of Gurbanee .I strongly feel so.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Luckysingh]

Dear friends, please share what you understand from this shabad.

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਇਹ ਮਾਲਾ ॥
These two words, Har, Har, make up my maalaa.
ਜਪਤ ਜਪਤ ਭਏ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥
Continually chanting and reciting this rosary, God has become merciful to me, His humble servant. ||1||
ਕਰਉ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੀ ॥
I offer my prayer to the True Guru.
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Shower Your Mercy upon me, and keep me safe in Your Sanctuary; please, give me the maalaa, the rosary of Har, Har. ||1||Pause||
ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਉਰ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥
One who enshrines this rosary of the Lord's Name within his heart,
ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਕਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥੨॥
is freed of the pains of birth and death. ||2||
ਹਿਰਦੈ ਸਮਾਲੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲੈ ॥
The humble being who contemplates the Lord within his heart, and chants the Lord's Name, Har, Har, with his mouth,
ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਇਤ ਉਤ ਕਤਹਿ ਨ ਡੋਲੈ ॥੩॥
never wavers, here or hereafter. ||3||
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਰਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ॥
Says Nanak, one who is imbued with the Name,
ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੭੦॥
goes to the next world with the maalaa of the Lord's Name. ||4||19||70||
(389, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

This thread was from some months back and we all went in the dircetions of har har and naam.
Getting back to the OP, I can now see this shabad in a much different light.
Maybe that is what shabads are supposed to do, maybe they are to give you some inspiration and knowledge in one period and then a more deeper and profound message in the next period.
Anyhow, it's nice to go back ad re-study shabads that you think you may have conquered previously.

Getting back to the beginning here-

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਇਹ ਮਾਲਾ ॥


Har har akẖar ḏu▫e ih mālā.

These two words, Har, Har, make up my maalaa. Continually chanting and reciting this rosary, God has become merciful to me, His humble servant. ||1||



ਜਪਤ ਜਪਤ ਭਏ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥

Japaṯ japaṯ bẖa▫e ḏīn ḏa▫i▫ālā. ||1||


Now we estabilished that the rosary is the malaa within but the description 'har har' was used for God. Now this is mostly done by 4th Nanak and not 5th as discussed earlier in this thread.
He used it for some other specific reason and not to help any rhyming as can be seen.
In my opinion, the term 'har har' when used is mostly 'har' uttered twice or more, it is hardly ever used just once.

Then the shabad mentions that ' these 2 words or akhar, make up my malaa' The malaa that is to go with you everywhere and forever.

This one line, I now see it as telling me what is 'two' ?
First thing that comes to mind is dualities and day and night etc..etc..
But looking a little deeper and maybe trying to 'feel' this shabad, I now see the 2 words or 2 mentions of har har representing each breath.
One for the breath IN and one for the breath OUT.

With every breath the vibration of har har should resonate.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Lucky Singh ji,
Seeing as "Hari Hari" is only used by Guru Ramdas ji and less frequently by Guru Arjan Dev ji (and rarely by other Gurus and Bhagats), it maybe Guru Ramdas ji's mantra! Maybe every amritvela he used to chant "Hari Hari".
I also think that one Hari would be chanted on inhalation and the other on exhalation. But can't say for sure.