Meat - Is It Against Sikhi?

[S|kH]

The guy who posted the "violent Bhindranwale link"
can you please fix the link, its not working properly.

I'd like to give it a read, thanks.


And also, as I said before :

Meat does not have much to do with religion or higher spirituality. I think that was Guru Nanaks aim. Hence, the reason we dont eat halal meat is because its meat that has been performed under religious rites.

If you do not choose to eat meat, there are plenty of noteful reasons, such as you can be scared of increase in diseases, or you do not wish to "torture and kill an animal."
These are all valid reasons, but have nothing to do with religoin. People will attempt to use those reasons as back up and claim that meat is against religion.

Nor does religion say that eating meat is ok or should be allowed. It is a personal choice, that will not make you higher in spirituality.

 

[Admin]

By our Member, Vijaydeep Singh Ji, i have not read fully but its seems to be a deep post, i would love some reviews from members.

Ek Oankar WahiGuru Ji Ki Fateh
Dear Brethren since das did go in for the study of Huqumnama of Sixth master which is told to be forbidding Sikhs to eat meat, Vars of Bhai gurdas Ji and life of Sixth master inGuru Bilas Patshahi Chhevin(in Granth Suraj Prakash by Giani Gian singh and Tika (Expalanation by Sodi Teja Singh) so Das took some time to reply.

Few words to be expalined like Hukumnama ie Letter(Nama) of order(Huqum) sent to A particular sangat at the the particular time. Hukum is order given in words to sangat or a section of Sikhs. Rahit nama is Letter of Rahit(prohibitions).

Few Sakhis state that in order to test First master told Second master to eat dead body. Likewise Second Master told Third Master on second meeting to eat meat to Let him be near Sikhism from Vaishnavism. Such orders wereonly relevant to the orderer and the orderee not for all Sikhs at all time other than giving them inspirations .

Lets talk of Huqumnama of Sixth master in qustion. There are four wrtings given in book of Ganda singh showing to be from Sixth master . The hukumnama was discovered by Bhai Randhir Singh point to be noted. From the place of Patna Sahib. The Takht of Patna sahib had oftrn kept more pro Hindu postures .
The bir Of Dasam Granth Sahib Kept there has more verses than Standard bir of Bhai Mani Singh. In that Bir we Have Chhake Patshahi Dasvin(Regarding goddess Durga.) perhaps Often Hindus interpret a verse from it thet Khalsa was formed for Hinduism and he prays to goddess. Panth does not recoganise it as standard bir(copy). If it is true it has different meaning.

So there are two hukumnamas which are telling Sikhs to “not to come near meat and Fish”. Firest is that we need to get a carbon dating done of thease papers to se if it is from gurudevs era. Other could be Dating of nuclear isotops. As we have sen that the writing of Sixth master on Nishan and mool mantra given on Firest copy of Adi Guru Darbar(Still could be seen at Thmu Ji Sahib,Kartarpur,District Jalandhar on Vaisakhi Day Research has confiremed it to be firest) . Is totally different from the rest of three writings. At last two hukumnanmas only it is written to not to come near meat and fish. In former Firest wrting at Kartarpuri bir words are wrtten joined whereas in other three writings they are written separated. May be other three were written by drafter and signed by Sixth master. But in both of the last two writings spelling of meat are apearing to be incorrect maybe it is true or maybe the photo graphs of the true copies are blurred. There vowel aa ie arha in Gurmukhi which is represented as dot in those writing is missing so it is read as mus(ink) not maas so a clearer photo graph is needed. But das is sure that it is pointing towards meat and fish.

It is addressed to sangat of east so doesit mean that it is only for them as present day Sikhs can not live with Japeji and Gurdas ji (Sikhs of those times if this gurdas is same Bhai Gurdas who wrote Varan as he also lived in east India At gurudevs time then This means that Sikhs were instructed to follow him) . Nor can we send all that to Sixth master what all he has asked for in letter like Koel or Pigeons etc. Any way As it is written that remain Ek Dasi(follower of one) so this is universally truth so it has to be followed. Many people say that in Malar di var first master did not addressed the man kind but a Vaishnav panda to not to hate meat so why canot we say that this Hukumnama is only addressed to Sangat of east not to mankind only due to universal fact mentioned in it which say Say the name of Kartar(creator) and reamain slave of one.

Firest Hukumnama has three pages. Sign of Gurdev are at 1st page. Perhaps this is the only letter which carries the name of gurudev ji(observation made by Ganda Singh). Telling not to come near Fish and Meat is on second page which does not have Masters signature but writing is similar to first page.

The second hukumnama only has mark of gurudev ie nishan. It has mention that sangat of east is his Khalsa. If this means Khalsa which was created by tenth master then this letter is fake as this lettr has to be much much before birth of Khlasa. Other meaning of Khalsa is the one who dierctly pay tax to king. So this may mean that thease Sikhs did not have any masands who were via media for tenthee (daswandh). But it is historical fact that we still have about five hundred thousend Nanak Panthi Sikhs in Bihar(East of India) who were made Sikhs by Missionary(who was previously a Sanyasi(acetic) by Sixth Guru. So we may have to see that if we did not have any Masands over there at that time. But it does contain name of bhai Jaita who is also mentioned in var 10 pauri 31 of Bhai Gurdas.the first letter had no such thing.

Guru Ji in letter one ask for an Ilaicha(Lacha) of rate ten to be sent to him. Lacha is cloth in rectangular form. It has border often made up of silk. Sikhism does not forbids Silk. In Bhai Gurdas Ji Var Silk is given in postive light.(var 17 pauri 15) silk has non-veg origion as made up of cocoon of insect. Like wise in Dasam Granth in Vichitra Natak Tenth master mentioned Nagaras during the wars he fought. Nagara(Big Drum beaten to create noise of War). Like wise we have mention of Dhole and mridnagam in court of God(read Arti sahib) . All of them have leather in it. So das has a questions to all those who say that in Malar Di Var Firest Master Talked meat in general term and not the meat to be eaten. Perhaps that fish is mentioned along it.

So few points to be noted.

If this hukamnama is true it was targeted to all sikhs but only at that time. As in first letter Gurudev ji state that he got the letter from Sangat and came to know Haqiqat(reality).Which he only knew. Ganada Singh who compiled the book also gave references to Sau Sakhi(the hundred testimonies) . Which states that Sikh of Guru Govind Singh can eat meat. Das himself has few doubts on some contents of Sau Sakhi which state that Sikh must not convert Turk in Sikhism or He should not learn Persian as such things were done by tenth master himself. And it goes against Dasam Granth. So all wrtings other than Adi guru Darbar and Dasam Granth Ji have to be tested on the Standard of the two books mentioned before. If it contrast the two great book it is unauthentic else usefull.
Ramraiyas, Dhirmaliyas consider(ed) themselves as Sikh of Sixth Guru but not of Tenth Guru. Dhirmaliyas were extinct after the conversion of their head Baba Vadbhag Singh into Sikhism(he was Baptised by Nawab Kapur Singh). Ramraiyas still exist with headquarter in Dehradoon ,Uttranchal ,India. They consider themselves as Hindu.
Sikhs of Guru Hargovind Sahib Ji did not carry name as Singh, nor they were having Saber nectar the Khanade bate da Amrit. They use to have Charan Pahul. Panj Piaras were not baptized. It is fact that all gurus were one that is due to the fact that all were one with God. Who is Nit Nava(always new) and Bahurangi(Multi colored). Words common in Gurbani. This signifies the nature of our God. He is not bound by any predefined law but makes law for us and Change them too. He is the King of Kings( Rajan Raj). So posibility of change of will of God so the change of policies followed by God’s manifestations the great Gurus are a fact. Policy of Fifth and Ninth Gurus were of martyrdom and mass awakening were unlike the one followed by their successors who organized army and fought wars. So if Khalsa of tenth master has different code then the Sikhs of Sixth master then nothing to worry. Likewise at one time Seli Topi(a sort of cap was worn) but know cap is banned in Sikhs.
Gurbani is not the poetry as misrepresented by Hindus who call it poetry praising their deities. It is dhur ki Bani ie Voice of Pole( here meaning origin who is no one else than God). It is nothing else but manifestation of God in the form of words which guide us. So it is our Guru. Any one who doubts the Gurship of gurbani cannot be a Khalsa. As tenth Guru Said that If you want to see me see a true Sikh and if you want to talk to me read Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Since firest Master our guru has been God and word he sent to us in form of Gurbani. All ten master did not preach to follow them but bani,to worship God as told by him via Bani. Which was ihalm(Heavanly verses) coming down on Gurudevs,Bhagats,Bhats among others. All find place in Adi Guru Grnath Sahib.
A. Bani is not always in rein(TukBandi) Example see 37 and 38 verses of Japuji Sahib

“Tithai Bhagat vasai ke loa. Kare anandSacha amn soi..
Sach khnad vase Nirankar(u).Kar Kar Vaikhe nadir Nihal..”

See the combination Loa and Soi and Nirankar(u) and Nihal. It is message from God unbounded by rule but itself is a rule to be followed.

See 38 verse favourite to Damdami Taksal

“Bhau khala agani taptau. Bhanda Bhau Amrit t(i)at(u) Dhali..
Gharhiye sabad(u) Sachi Taksal. Jin Kau Nadir Karm(u) tin Kar..

So se the combination of Taptau and Dhali and Taksal and Kar.

Last line is “Nanak Nadri Nadir Nihal” odd fifth line out of pair.

Gurbani was not written by GuruDev Ji but was just transferred to us from God via Gurudev(his own manifestation.
Such examples are plenty in Adi Guru Darbar.

B. Gurbani Did not carry Instructions for Sikhs. Gurbani is a Guide(Guru) what else does a guide contain if not instructions. There are many such examples but das is presenting one only Take for example Salok Mahala Nauvan which is near the completion(culmination) of Adi Guru Darbar take 25 th verse “the way bubble from water gets created and destroyed as a routine. The way is univrsal creation is created says Nanak Listen friend. “ Here ninth master is telling to listen and understand some thing. Like wise take 35 th verse or 48 th verse. So we have many such verses which give us instructions.

So When Tenth Gurudev completed the Damdami Bir (Copy of Adi Guru Darbar which had bani of Ninth Guru included) If he or his Master Akal Purakh would have wanted all the Sikhs to follow the hukum nama of Sixth Guru it might have had been included into Adi Guru Darbar. As in order to be for all Sikhs and mankind Bani can be in the form of order/instruction. Proven above. It may not be a poetry either. Likewise we have Letters also included in Adi Guru Darbar Example is Sabad “Mera man loche Guru Darshan Tahi” is Majh mahala Panjavan(Page 95 or 96 of Shri Guru Granth Sahib { das apologises to sangat for the fact that in Sateek copy of Adi Guru Darbar Page correspondance with mool Bir is not accurate so in case of doubt for exact page two adjacent pages could be given Sangat can find it on any one of the page)}) This Sabad composes of letters written to Fourth Gurudev By Fifth guru Dev.

C Likewise many brother say that at different times the same Holy Verses (Bani) has different meanings. As it is the handiwork of ever dynamic God this can not be denied. But their should be no doubt in Sikh’s mind should remain regarding the meaning of Gurbani. If we our self are unaware of it how can we preach other. Damdami Taksal was created with main purpose to maintain the Taksali(real) Arth(meaning) of Gurbani. So was the work of Prof. Sahib Singh Ji. Sant ji gave his comforts to let the Maryada(Code) of Gurbani remain.

So at last Das will say that if this hukumnam is true it has relevance only if it is proven in Adi guru Granth Sahib ji that Meat eating is not OK. If other wise proven then it will mean that the said Hukumnama was only addressed to the selected Segment or was only relevent in a particular time. Our Guru Granth Sahib Ji who are the Sabad,The Guru of all the Gurudevs Since First Master,
are our eternal Guru and No other thing can match our holy book.

GurBani is unpeckable for ages(jugo jug atal) and no one can twist it. Only non Sikh can think of “twisting” it. By calling Muslman written in Adi guru Darbar Beiman Ramrai was shuned by his father(Seventh Master for ever),When Bhai Mani Singh wrote Adi Guru Darbar in the patteren of writers then in the patttern of Ragas he Had to pay for it by letting his body part cut. So no one can replace Gurbani.

Before we procede to see if meat is allowed in Gurbani or not lets have a look at the life of Sixth Guru.
Mohsin Fani wrote an account on his life. His being muslim does not debar him from writing truth as he was very near to Gurudevs time in chronology so panth belives in his account. By clubbing and generalizing all Muslims together and saying that if Muslim write true for Sixth Guru so we must believe in other Muslims who wrote about other gurudevs is like saying if we believe in Marco polo as he was Christians so we should also believe in fictions writer Rudyard Kipling or forecaster nostrodamous as they were also Chrestians.

Mohsin Fani wrote that gurudev converted Muslims in Hinduism (Sikhism in reality) if he was wrong., Lets Say Giani Gyan Singh was wrong. But is Gurudwara Kaulsar is also wrong which was made by Gurdev for Mata Kaula who converted to Sikhism from Islam. If we are believing in other things from the accounts of Mohsin Fani or Giani Gian Singh but not believing things which go against our secternal ego we are closing our eyes like pigeon does on seeing the cat coming to catch it. Suraj Prakash Granth ras 4 to 8(called Guru Bilas Patshahi Chhevien) have the account of Sixth Guru life and it is supposed to be the source of most of the writings putting light to his life.

As per Giani Gian Singh Account Gurudev Kept Falcon (Baz) which is a bird kept to hunt other birds, Skirmish between the Gurudev and mughal king did happened as Bazs of both of them came down with same Surkhab (Bar -Headed geese), Gurudev fed the meat of dead quail to his falcon, He killed a wild boar, Departure of his son Baba Gurdita from world also highlights an attempt of Sikh to hunt dear.

Here Bhai Gurdas is reported to tell something to Baba Budha ji.
Similar observations were made by Bhai Gurdas Ji himself.
See Var 26 Pauri 24
“Earlier Gurus use to sit on asan(a sitting place) and preached satisfaction but this guru keeps dogs and play(go for) hunting.”

Note dogs (genetically) same as wolves, Cheetahs, Caracal are hunting animals which were kept in past by hunters due to their instinctive skills as hunters viz. a viz. Their pray ,which humans utilized to get his own pray/game in hunting. So Dogs kept by Gurudev Ji were kept only to hunt. Dog could only hunt herbivores ungulates at ease. This proves that Gurudev also hunted herbivores animals.

May be birds and animals killed by him to debar them to destroy crops as they could have been vermin. Tenth Nanak in Vachitar Natak wrote(page no. 60 of Shri Dasam Granth Sahib)
“ With various games in did hunting and killed Bear, Blue Bull (considered Cow by Hindus but this proved that Sikhs have not restrictions on cow Slaughter) , Swamp Deer etc. there.”

“Chose many Lions and killed(them) and destroyed Blue Bulls and Bears.”

So same animals were killed and recorded by tenth Nanak himself.

Nanak in tenth form did killed Dear.

This itself put end to those peoples argument who say that animal be not eaten as killing animal is forbidden in Sikhism. Gurbani itself states that life or death ,Good or evil are in God’s hand.

So if these animals were killed to protect crops then were not they being killed for food, That is instead of making them food they were killed to protect the potential food of Man.

So what is the answer for those who say to not to kill the animal for food.

Many people state that meat causes illness, It is not the meat but rotten food which causes the illness. So if such food is Veg. Than too it will cause the illness.

Many people say we have lots of other things to eat so why eat meat ?
So if this is something which God made for you to eat , By not eating it we are going against the Lord.
Likewise often we are told that on food if there is doubt over it should not be eaten.

People associate Liquor with meat. Whereas people combine both as non-veg diet seems to minimise damage done by liquor to body. It is like taking tonic with poison(which is liked due to habit/taste) With no fault of tonic. So in Haryana many Hindus do not eat meat but take alcohol with peanut, Cottage cheese, Walnut etc. should we ban them to.

Who are in Sikhs who are more near vegetarianism?

People who are very much under the influnece of Hinduism an belive in Sangrands, Puranamshis,Ekadashis etc. And on thease days abstain to eat cereals etc also. So later on they can debar us from saying that since the grains contain life so cereal be not eaten. So we may not eat Karha Prasad or Have amrit even as both have cereals(Amrit contains Batashas which has mix of sugar and cereal). Only Faith in worldwhich preaches vegitairianism is hindusim(including Jains).


2 .Other are “high Caste” Sikhs. Castes in Hinduisms like Jats, Jangirha(Carpanters) etc are staunch vegitarians. Kshatrias are been told in Manu Samriti to eat Goat mutton. According to high caste they have superior blood and Low Caste people eat unclean things. So we have Jat like Jaimal Singh who started Radha Swamis(Anti Sikh Faith), So we have another Jat of Ludhiana who is much more better and higher than Das himself yet unintentionally he also brought his Jat tendency into Faith by preaching anti meat policy.

People of some Jathas it perhaps appears do not eat from the hand of other Baptised Sikhs even in Gurudwaras even as lattter could eat meat leave aside eating in same bowl. This is casteism and nothing else as Panth preachs that God is in all so no one is unclean.

So if someones create doubt if to eat meat or not them Gurbani is there to remove doubts. A person can not be doubtfull and Sikh at same time.

Few use full terms.

Halal- Killing of animal by Muslim way ie draining out its blood till it dies of anemia. Panth is only against the killing of animal by brutality but concept of Halal or Kosher(“animal killed by jew rites) are against the Gurmat.

In old testment when Abraham(Abram at that time) sacrifises his child at that time his God tells him that kill animal by draining blood out of it as blood is life. Again Moses was also instructed on it. Islam does believe in Halal as Jews. Gurmat disagree that life is in blood and not in flesh. We believe God to be every where and not such discrimination based on matter which is decayable. As God is Same in flesh as in blood so why shed blood.

Sutak (Birth) and Patak (Death)- during such occasions in house food is not cooked as during such time it appears to be seen that house is not pure. As human membranes/body parts may disintegrate then and may contaminate food. Veg-Non-veg theory seem to work here.

They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world,
And eat a simple diet of grain and water.
(SGGS p467)

This is “ Those(people) broke the bond of world eaten cereal and water less.” .
In Indian AnnPani or Ann Jal is to stand for food in general. So here eating less is preached not eating cereal only. As sugar Part of Amrit and Karha prasad is not cereal yet used by us. It is not preaching to eat cereal and water only but to eat less.

You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain.
(SGGS p332)

There it is written twice
“ Make deities (male and female) and offer sacrifice”
“Cut(Kill) living beings and worship non living (it) is heavy(difficult) at end(ie may lead to suffering aftwer death)”
If we read the whole Rag Gaurhi Bairagni 1 Kabir Ji to which it is a part we will come to know that verse is against deity worshiping and opposing the Sacrifises being made in front of non livig deities.

We will see another verse also (SGGS p477 or p478 ) This is bani of Kabir Ji.
“(you) pluck the leave (o) female gardener which has life but for stone(idol) these leaves are plucked that stone is non-living”

“Brahma is leaf, Vishnu is Branch, Shiva is flower”

In above mentioned also idol worshiping is forbidden and offering vegetarian material is to them is forbidden. So we are not told to not to eat veg food but not to worship deities. As we use Sehras(Flower garland) on SGGS, We use Dona(Leaf bowl) for Karrah Prasad which is not anti panthic.

(SGGS Page 474 or 475)
“One vessel full of cooked Chicken and one vessel full of water (liqueur) (is kept). Around it sit Five yogis(vices) and in between nose less(Shame less) Queen(mammon)”
Here a poetic way is used to explain mammon related matter with the example of 3 ms of Tanatric type of people ie Madira(Liqueur),Mans(Meat) and Maithun(Sex) which is their form of worship. Panth opposes such worship.

Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ?
(SGGS p1350)

It is in reality
“do not call Vedas (or) Kateb(bible and kuran) false but false are who do not think (on them). If (you) say one God in all than why (do you) kill hen..1..Mullah tell (is this the) justice of God. Illusion of your mind does not go..1..Rahau.. Living Creature is held (and) brought, body got destroyed, Mud is trampled. Light(of creature) gets assimilated to lord, than what is Halal..2..”

So this is addressed to Mullah who is killing(Halal) the hen. This is reproted about the hypocracy of him that once he consider that God is in all(as told in Vedas and Kateb) then why should there be halal and as at end body (and other matters) are going back to soil.

Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt.
You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ?
(SGGS p1378)

Here lets see
“Kabir doing force is oppression, says name is Halal.(in) office of God when account will be asked than what will be condition (who will be responsible)..187.. Kabir good to eat Khichari which has salt(like) nectar. For Hera(meat) roti(bread) who should get the throat slit..188..”

here Hera is described as meat with spices for taste.

so Kabir Ji opposed Halal and prefer to eat Khichari than meat for which thraot is slit here of animal and with God of defaulter.

Hera seems to be coming from Herna ie searching in bhojpuri dialect(of area where Kabir Ji lived). Yet as per Gurbani traditions Hera here is used for meat.

In halal throat sliting is must but not in Jhatka.

In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs;
They eat rotting dead bodies for food.
(SGGS p1242)

Here we have “ In Kaliyuga people have become dog mouth (i.e. greedy),Their food has become Murdar(the unruly(unauthorized) provisions(like bribe))”

Murdar is not murda(Dead) as term is used by first master in Siri Rag(SGGS p23 or 24) .
Sayeth Kabir, sayeth thou by "forcefully" killing living beings, Halaal.
When in God's house, your accounts be taken, what will then there happen to you!
(SGGS p1375)

Here we have “Kabir if you kill living beings with force and say it halal. When in office(of God)you will be accounted for than what will be the situation.”

Here he again opposes the halal. Many people say Jea stands for self (heart) and killing jea means here suppressing self with force but Das thinks that here Jea stands for living beings.

Kabeer bhang mashalee suraapaan, jo jo pranee khaan-he
teerath barat neym kee-ey, te sabh rasaatal jaan-he (1377)

It has meaning
“ Who so ever eats cannabis, Fish, Alcohol drink. (in spite of their) doing pilgrimage, Abstaining ,living a life with rules they are going to nether world(as per Islamic Background of Kabir Ji this is implies hell)”

Panth opposes pilgrimage and abstaining but support the life with rule. But Kabir Ji does not support the heavan or hell as per panthic idealogy (SGGS p)335 or 336. Here it could be implied that such person may be given rebirth or his God deeds go down (the drain) or may be Punishment by God.

But people targeted are those hypocrites who at one time take intoxicants (Fish could be a safe guard against ill effect of liquor) and do other rituals along side may not get salvation.

Lastly we have “ (If) Blood attaches to cloth ,Dress becomes unclean. Mind of person who drinks the human blood can how be clean”(SGGS p141 or 140). This was said to be addressed to qazi(judge) for him to be just in his deeds.

Now lets start for Sabads which appear to support Non -veg consumption.
For the following all the sabads Das request the Sadh Sangat to Read them all in totality here das is only giving quotes out of them.

Following Sabad has a legend that once while seeing fisherman catching Fish Gurudev’s Companions Balal Ji and Mardan Ji became unhappy so first master got this Bani from God.“He(God) is fisherman,(he is )Fish,(He is )water,(He is also )the fishing net. Type of beads tied to net and Mani precious stone obtained from the Stomach of fish is also God.(SGGS p 22 or 21).

Here Jains were too concerned about not killing living beings das only gives one quate from whole of verse “That God only kill or keep the living being alive no one else can keep them.”(SGGS p 148 or 149) Das ask you all to read this whole verse in SGGS .

Now das gives an account of Sutak.

Kabir Ji also wrote about it on pages 330 or 331 of SGGS.

Das requeat sangat to read it.

Das has already wrote above that sutak and Patak are terms used by Hindus for birth and death event in home and food is considered to be unclean at that time due to the introduction of perhaps non-veg elements in atmosphere of home due to decay of dead body or discharge of delivery from mother or son. This is of organic past ie it is from living beings.
So on page 471 or 472 of SGGS das is only giving few quotes must be seen in context.
“”as much are the grains of cereal they are nothing else but living beings.” “Water is life which gives freshness to all.” “Sutak Uncleanly ness is not removed just like that but (divine) Knowledge remove it wash it.”

“ for uncleanly ness to be spread from one to another as told is illusion(untrue). Life and birth is (under the) order (of GOD) ,With his will coming and going(life and death) occur. Edibles and drinkables is clean which is given as roji (reward of employement )by God. Says Nanak
Those who understand the crux of Guru’s saying are devoid of uncleanly ness.”

Lastly das considers the Var Malar Ki M.(Mahala) 1
content on p 1288 or 1289 of SGGS

We have clear views of Akahnad kirtani Jatha that here Guru Ji did not said us to eat meat so we will not take it as order to eat meat.

Other people say that this was only addressed to a vaishnav brahamin.

Lets take the former argument see some examples below

Sayeth Kabir, sayeth thou by "forcefully" killing living beings, Halaal.
When in God's house, your accounts be taken, what will then there happen to you!
(SGGS p1375)

Here Kabir Ji did not tell us to not to kill by halal or not to eat halal but we have implied it from the crux of massage that we are forbiddan to take Halal.

“ Who so ever eats cannabis, Fish, Alcohol drink. (in spite of their) doing pilgrimage, Abstaining ,living a life with rules they are going to nether world(as per Islamic Background of Kabir Ji this is implies hell)” (1377)

Here to by giving us some other words we are told to not to take things mentioned above.

So we must not assume that Gurbani is what we desire it to be, We canot ask Kings of King(God) to say as we want, Rather we will have to understand what he said.

Second case is that if this is only for brahmin.
Had it been so then it would have been only an updesh and not the Part of Adi Guru Darbar each of its Verse is guidance to mankind. It is bringing Castism into our Holy book also like in Hindus we have some scriptures reserved for some castes.

Gurubani has addressed made to Sants,Mullahs, Perhaps bhai Lalo also but they are divine words for us all. In verse mentioned before dealing with Jains Guru JI preach them to take bath. Since it is only for jains so we must not take bath. In fact it is good for to take bath for all.

Verse as follow
..Salok m. 1 .. Initially Conceived by Flesh (Meat)(process of mother getting pregnant),Then lived in flesh(mothers body). When got birth got Bone, skin ,body which is also flesh. Came out (of womb) got food (from) flesh as from breast feeding . Mouth, Tongue all are made up of flesh,Breath(Life) live in flesh. Grew up, Got married brought flesh(wife) at home. Flesh reproduces flesh(Children are born) and all relations are produced by flesh. When meet with Satguru, Realize the will of God than only this whole action gets validity. Says Nanak that by self attempt we are not delivered and by thease saying goes to destruction. (Das comments that this implies that Salvation can not be obtained by Humans weather to remain veg eater or not).

..M 1.. Fools quarrel on meat (flesh) not knowing (divine) knowledge, remembrances. What is meat what is vegetable which contains Sin. As per angels nature humans sacrificed Rhino to them for Yagna(worshipping on alters). People who leave meat and sit holding their nose eat human at night. They hold and pretend to people did not think of the knowledge, Remembrance. Real blind is the one who earns blindness(Ignorance towards Justice/Truth) whose hearts(minds) are without eyes(of knowledge). Produced by blood of parents but do not eat meat or fish.(das wants to know that is only that brahmin in born out of blood of parents and are we all not).When man and woman meet at night it is utilisation of flesh. Concieved by flesh, Born of flesh wall are pots of flesh.(this means we cannot free ourselves of flesh inspite of not eating it). This brahmin who consider himself as clever does not thinks of knowledge,Rememberance.(this means we are told to not to follow the hypocratic vegitarianism of Brahamin).Dislike the exterior flesh but like lord flesh of home(Family). Living beings(animate(Jant)) are from flesh and (had initial) stay (in flesh womb). Those who have blind(fool) Guru leave edible and eat Inedible (Perhaps edible here is Meat and latter is consumption of food earned by unfair means. As here we told that for such people do not eat meat ,The same people also leave edible(do not eat it) so this implies that meat is edible.). Meat is puranic meat is katebic(as mentioned valid in them) the four ages earned meat. In Yagnas and marriges meat is prevailing (it is still ture). Man, Woman, kings, emperors all evolved out of flesh. If they are sen going to hell than should not have taken offering from them. Quite strang that givers go to hell and taker goes to heavan. ‘clever’ pandit does not understand himself but explains the other people. O Pandit you do not know that from the meat comes. Water produces Cereal, Sugercane, Cottan etc. Tribhuvan (whole worlds) is made up of water (scientifically true that fluid created all)(so meat, Cottan, Cereal, Sugercane all are made up of one thing so could they be hated or loved alike). As per pandit water is holy but it also takes into various corruptions and it changes it form into various rasas(chemichals) so by leaving all things mentioned then only could one be Sanyasi(aesetic) says Nanak.

Lastly Das will look Into vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji

The Vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji are known as the 'kunji' (key) to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
Var 31 pauree 9 : "Just because the Guru has saved the butcher,That does not mean that we can kill animals and eat them."

It states “If butcher has been salvaged it does not mean that Creatures be killed and destruction be eaten(brought in).”

Bhai Ji wanted us to relaise to not kill creatures on pretext that Butcher Killed them so he got salvation Killing is not the media of salvation . Salvation is not obtained by killing(for getting salvation copying Butcher) but by will of God.

See Var 23 Pauri 13.

Discourse by medium of Goat.
Due to pride elephant is not eatable,Due to power Lion is also not eatable.
Due humbleness Goat is respected every where. On deaths,Marriges etc and on Yagnas ,its eating is acceptable. Householder consider its flesh as clean ,Its intestines are made as strings in musical instruments. Its leather is used to make shoe for Saints who are absorbed in devotion for God. Tablas and mridangas are made of its skin so in Sadhsangat(company of holy men) beneficial glory of God is sung. Going to the Company of holy/godly men is going in refuge of true guru.

Var 25 Pauri 17
(Goat)
when goat reached lion for being killed it laughed .
Lion asked with surprise that on this occasion why are you laughing.
With humbleness goat said that our male offspring’s are casterised.
Inspite of our eating plants like aak and dhatura(both are not good for man) our skin in pulled and beaten.
(Whereas you who) eat meat after cutting the throat what will be your Situation.
At end body of proud and humble be ashes but of Proud(lion) it is unedible but for Humble its body id edible. Whoso ever comes to world will have to die.

So this proves that all have to die but humble like Goat is great as after its death its body is used as a food (by man) but not same for lion.
Point to be noted that lion can eat Goat or other lion so for lion flesh of lion is not edible but for man flesh of proud lion is unedible.
Das thanks Sangat as he could read so many great things in Adi Guru Darbar Ji,Dasam Granth Ji, Var Bhai Gurdas Ji, Huqumnamas and other great books.

Main Reason for dass writing this article was to let panth comes out Hinduisms bad influence of vegitarianism which trys to turn lion into sheep.

At end das seeks an apology in the feet of panth if any mistake has been commited.

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Fateh
Getting registerd so let RSS agents do not use my name

Vijaydeep Singh

 

[S|kH]

Interesting read.

Although the typing is sometimes hard to decipher lol
and in the beginning it takes quotes from Dasam Granth, which the source is debatable. But it does a relatively nice explanation of these supposed myths that Sikhs should not eat meat.

I'd just like to fix this one thing :
Halal- Killing of animal by Muslim way ie draining out its blood till it dies of anemia. Panth is only against the killing of animal by brutality but concept of Halal or Kosher(“animal killed by jew rites) are against the Gurmat.

Halal is not draining out the blood, Halal is one cut and the animal is dead, it is a relatively very quick method of killing, the animal dies in an instant. Sometimes this is faster than shooting the animal with a gun. I have spoken to muslim scholars about this, because I was under the assumption Sikhs do not eat Halal because the method of killing the animal is long and causes torture.

It is incorrect, Halal meat is meat that is pointed towards mecca and killed in an instand under God's name. Sikhs were forbidden to eat this meat because we do not kill animals in God's name, whether it be Allah, Waheguru or God. We do not acknowledge such sacrifices.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

AKAL TAKHAT doesnt ban meat ( only halaal sacrifical meat )

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

The SIKH REHAT MARYADA approved by the AKAL TAKHAT only lists HALLAL (sacrificial) Meat as BANNED.

The reason why Hallal (sacrificial) meat is Banned is because such meat is SACRIFICED to a Devi/Devta/Mandir ( as in Hindu Goat sacrifice etc at Kali Mata mandirs). It has been an ancient practise to OFFER BLOOD SACRIFICE... the Blood of the Victim is DRAINED OFF and offered to the diety...this custom is also observed in Hallal sacrifice whereby the Throat is cut and the blood allowed to drain off by the pumping heart. The KHALSA being the Khalsa Of Waheguru declines to eat "such second hand meat" (meat that has already been offered to someone else !!).

The meat issue is a NON-ISSUE brought into Sikhism by the sant/derawallahs who lean too much towards Brahminism. If we read Sidh Ghost, the Bani that contains the dialogue of Guru nanak and the Sidhs/Rishis/Sants?sadhs of Hinduism/Yog Matt etc...there is One important question in which the Head Yogi tells Nanak that their diet consists of Roots/berries etc.
Guru nanak answers EACH adn EVERY question of the Yogis...BUT strangely enough just IGNORES completley this DIET part ( kand mool - roots/berries). This is proof enough that this diet was a NON-ISSUE as far as Guru Ji is concerned. IF Vegetarian diet was that IMPORTANT, surely GURU JI would have confirmed it here..but no Guru Ji just ignored it completley.

2. Vegetarian proponents are always quoting Bhagat kabir's shabads such as Kio Murgee mareh etc etc as being Anti-Meat. The simple answer to this line of thought is that whatever Bhagat kabir is writing is addressed to the MUSLIMS....in this particular shabad bhagat ji asks the Qazi: You say God is in everything....then WHY do YOU KILL the MURGII as "SACRIFICE" . rememeber the Sacrifice aspect in Islam is meant to PLEASE ALLAH. Bhagat is asking how can God be pleased to see his own creation being killed to "please him" The shabad is NOT about killing murgees for FOOD !!

Guru Ji is very clear that taking what is not your own is BAD....as bad as pork to a muslim and beef to a hindu....Haak Pariyah Nanaka us soor us gai !!! How could anyone intrpret this line as saying guru ji is agaisnt eating pork and beef...yet i constantly hear this as well.

The truth is that the AKAL TAKHAT as the Highest seat of Miri-Piri in Sikhism sanctions MEAT that is not hallal 9sacrificial). If you feel like eating it - go ahead and if you dont - that is also your perogrotive. That is why the PANJ PIYARE DONT tell you meat is banned...because it ISNT. Meat is banned only in the "fringe maryadas" followed by various splinter groups such as AKJ, Dam dami taksaal , nanaksari babas, and MOST FERAWALLAH SADHS.

Waheguru will judge you according to what is in Your MANN - not what is in your stomach. Meat eaters can be calm, peaceful, religious....and vegetarians can be rapists, violent, atheists, murderers...DIET has nothing to do with it.

Jarnail Singh

 

[Amarpal]

Dear members,

Eating meat is not against Sikhi. Guru Nanak Dev Jee too had eaten meat. This is narrated in the book 'History of Sikhs by Gopal Singh.

Amarpal

 

[Neutral Singh]

Amarpal Ji, I also 'heard' that Guru Nanak did eat Meat... Could you please put some more light on this incidence and its autenticity.

Regards

 

[Amarpal]

Dear Member (sikhphilosophy)

Yes, tomorrow I will give the detaied reference and some details of the incident.

Amarpal

 

[Arvind]

Waheguru will judge you according to what is in Your MANN - not what is in your stomach. Meat eaters can be calm, peaceful, religious....and vegetarians can be rapists, violent, atheists, murderers...DIET has nothing to do with it.

Gyani ji,

Above are just possibilities. They say - You are what you eat. Diet certainly has got lot of things to do with thinking pattern.

By above statement, I am not arguing about the focus topic, whether to eat meat or not.

Regards.

 

[Amarpal]

Dear Member (sikhphilosophy Jee),

I am here giving details on Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee teachings to us on consuming meat.

This is from the book 'History of Sikh People' by Dr Gopal Singh, which I had purchased at a subsidised rate from the committe's out let at Gurdwara Bangla Sahib, New Delhi.

The incident is on page 74 and 75 of this book.

It all happend in Kurukshetra.

A follower of Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee offered him deer-meat. Guru Sahib allowed him to roast it for his meals. Local people objected to it. Guru Sahib' reply as mentioned in the book follows.

" Only they who have never seen flesh are exercised at its sight, but why a man who's conceived in flesh, and is himself nothing but flesh and bones; who is fed on bothre's breast, who is with the tongue of flesh, who marries flesh, who produces flesh and breaths in flesh. Is there a man or woman who deals not in flesh"

The locals still opposed and Guru Sahib said:

"Do we not take water from which springs all life? It gives life to man,as to the animal and to vegetation. Shall we then shun water because it produces life? And don't the plants have life? They breathe, they love, they live and they die. And what is one to say of those who do not eat animal flesh but devour men and suck their blood?"

Guru Sahib further told them:

"O men. I do not eat for the relish of the palate, but take what ever is offered to me in good faith by one who has earned with the sweat of his brow. It will be ungodly for me to refuse to eat what comes to me in God's will".

This what I has referred to in my last posting on this thread.

With love and respect for all

Amarpal

 

[Neutral Singh]

yeah thanks sir,

 

[Kandola]

meat is normally eaten just for its taste.

is that what the gurus said? kill things for taste?

no!

you can eat meat, as a last resort. just like bandha singh bahdur. he only ate horses, because he was surrounded. sikhi was in his hands.

now, if we eat plants, why not meat?

simple, its a last resort. plants give us what we need, proteins and other stuff. its what simpletons eat. because its a last resort. but we dont have it for taste now do we? we have it because it keeps us going.

also the zafarnama says not to eat meat.

saying that, gyani sant singh maskeen says you can eat meat, its up to you. he abides by the akal takhat maryada.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

one of the writers above said Halla meat is killed in an "instant".

This is not the way it is.. The Muslim way of killing an animal is NOT INSTANT. The animal is pinned down, then a sharp knife is drawn across its throat slowly as Kalma are read and its Carotid arteries are cut open for the blood to drain out. Then the Head is slowly severed in a saw like motion...the naimal suffers immensely all the time before its heart stops due to lack of blood and oxygen as its trachea is also cut.

The JHATKA way of killing with ONE STROKE is truly instant.

If you want a visual of hallal.....look at one of those famous Head Cutting videos from Iraq. Those are the way hallal is done.

jarnail singh

 

[Arvind]

On lot of forums, I read discussions about 'Whether Meat or Not', 'Whether Halaal or Jhatka' etc.

Amarpal ji has summed up the information, which appeals to me very much i.e.

"O men. I do not eat for the relish of the palate, but take what ever is offered to me in good faith by one who has earned with the sweat of his brow. It will be ungodly for me to refuse to eat what comes to me in God's will".

Killing is killing, whether from any kingdom. Most of the Eating is for taste sake only. No one is living in a jungle now. People have lot of options with them. If one lives in a jungle, got no options, then go for whatever you want. But sitting at home with all kind of options open, then wondering about halaal or jhatka etc, doesnt seem to make sense to me.

With no offence to anyone please.

Regards.

 

[Singhstah]

taken from http://tapoban.org/meat.htm

Arguments Against Meat


In hukumnamas collected by Dr. Ganda Singh jee and published in his book "hukumnamas" each one of Satguru Hargobind Sahib's hukumnamas state "guru guru japna janam savar sangat dee kamnaa guru pooree karraygaa. Sangatee da ruzgaar hog, ik daasee rahinaa. Maas muchee day naray nahee avanaa." Please examine the last line. Clearly it says not to even go near meat or fish. This can't be just a hoax because all hukumnamas collected issued from Satguru jee bear this order.

Bhai Gurdas jee, whose banee was called the key to SGGS by Satguru Arjun dev jee says:

Sheeh pajooti Bakkari, maradi hoie harh harh hassi, Ak Dhatura khadian kuh kuh khal ukhal vinassi, Maas Khan gal wad ke, haal tinada kaun hovassi. (Vaar 25-7)

Means the goat says, "I was eating Ak and Dhatura plants (weed plants found in India) for whole of my life, to which no body else liked to eat. And even then I am being brutally killed and my skin being ripped, What will happen to those who cut my throat and eat my meat?

At some other place, Bhai Sahib talks about goat being cut by butcher to be eaten :

"kuhe Kassai Bakkari, lai loon seekh mass proyia" Hass hass bole kuhidi, khade ak haal eh hoyia, Maas khan gal churi de, haal tinada kaun aloyia" (Vaar 37-21)

Means: Goat is being killed, cut into pieces and salt being spread on the pieces. While being killed goat says this all happened to me while I was just eating Ak plant (weed found in India's desert fields). In last line goat puts a question, what will be the fate of those in the court of god who cut my throat with a knife and eat my meat?

Bhai Gurdas Ji in Vaar 31 gives strong warning against eating meat. He said, due to some good doings in previous births, Pootna (a witch who tried to poison Krishna Ji) was forgiven. But don't take it as that act of poisoning others is acceptable. And due to some pious acts in previous births and grace of Lord, Sadhana the butcher was forgiven (there is mention about him in Gurubani too, later on he became bhagat). But it should not be interpreted as, that killing animals and eating their meat (word "Bhanga" here) is acceptable. Please read the following lines of Bhai Sahib Ji:
"Jekar udhari pootna, Wihu pialan kam na changa, Je Kassai udharia, jeean ghai na khaiye Bhanga" (Vaar 31-5)

(Thanks to www.panthkhalsa.org for these quotes).

In SGGS banee which none of us can deny, there are also lots of tuks that say it is important not to eat meat. "Kabeer, jee jo maraahi jor kar, kahitay hai jo halal. Daftar daee jab kaid hai, hoigaa koun havaal" Meaning, those that used force and kill and call it halal, after going to the court of god, what will be their state? Here it may be argued that this tuk relates to halal, but think about it. Isn't force used in killing any animal for meat? Banee says "Parthai saakhee mahaa purakh bolday, saanjhee sagal jhaanai" meaning, what mahaapurakhs say applies to all, not just who they are specifically talking too. Here this line is addressed to Muslims, but it also applies too all who eat meat. . "Kabeer joree keeay julm hai, khaitaa naao halaal. Daftar laykhaa mangeeay tab hoigo koun havaal". Also, "Kabeer, jor keeaa so jolm hai, lay jabaab khudai. Daftar lykhaa neeksai mar muhai mohai khaii” meaning it is evil to use force and kill, god will certainly take you to task for it. When you must present your deeds in the court of god, you will face blows to the face. And "kabeer, bhaang maachulee suraapaan, jo jo praanee khai, teerath barat naym keeayai sabhai rasaatal jai” here Kabeer jee clearly states eating meat, fish and liqour is wrong and religion is not possible while eating these. "Bayd katayb kaho mat jhootay, jhoota jo na bichaarai. jo sabh mai eayk khudai kahit ho, to kio murgee maarai." meaning, the Semitic and Hindu scriptures aren't false, false is he who does not reflect on them. If they say that there is god in all, then why do you kill a chicken? Finally, Bhagat Kabeer jee says "Kabeer, khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa maih amrit loan. Hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kutaavai koun” meaning it is good to eat kicharee (mixture of rice and pulses), that has been tastefully prepared with salt. Who should risk having their throat cut (in the after life) just for a meal of meat and bread?

Mercy is of utmost importance in gurmat "daya jaanai jee kee kich pun daan karai" from aasaa dee vaar tells us to have mercy on all living things. Guru jee also tells us "dookh naa dayee kisai jee, pat sio ghar jaavo" give pain to no living thing. go home with honour. Athsath teerath sagal punn jeey dayaa parwaan: Going to the 78 places of pilgrimage, of greater merit and acceptance is having mercy upon living things.

I could give hundreds of tuks on the importance of mercy in gurmat. There is no mercy in killing an animal if there are hundreds of other things we can eat. Plants feel no pain, they don't move or squirm when we harvest them. I know a screaming goat can feel the pain when I kill it. Plants have no nervous system. Plants are a life form that can't feel pain. Animals are not as such. Many brothers/sisters may say that Maas Maas kar moorakh jhagray shabad makes meat ok. No. This shabad tells the sanyaasees that vegetarianism is not a religion. It will not bring muktee. It criticises those who wish to call vegetarianism the greatest religion. I could translate this shabad and show this, but I'll leave it for now. If someone wants though, I would be happy to translate all shabads that meat eaters want to use for support and show that they don't even begin to support meat. I hope I haven’t hurt anyone's feelings and just wish everyone would be brave to find the truth and then accept it.

 

[GushK]

Quick thing, not as elaborate as everyone else's posts.

Being vegetarian myself, I do have a certain bias in this argument but there seem to be many people who argue for being able to eat meat and quote gurbani etc. It seems to me that it's very easy to argue you're point when the meat you wish to eat is available pre-packaged, blood drained, skinned, plucked and ready to cook.

I wonder how the meat eaters choices would be if they had to actually do the killing themselves. I wonder how many people would be able to deliver that killing stroke and take a life to satifiy their hunger when many other options present themselves....

Ask youself.....would you? could you?

 

[Prabjyot Kaur]

Quick thing, not as elaborate as everyone else's posts.

Being vegetarian myself, I do have a certain bias in this argument but there seem to be many people who argue for being able to eat meat and quote gurbani etc. It seems to me that it's very easy to argue you're point when the meat you wish to eat is available pre-packaged, blood drained, skinned, plucked and ready to cook.

I wonder how the meat eaters choices would be if they had to actually do the killing themselves. I wonder how many people would be able to deliver that killing stroke and take a life to satifiy their hunger when many other options present themselves....

Ask youself.....would you? could you?

Ditto. I am Vegetarian myself & was not told to do so by Panj Piyare. Living with the vegetarian family; I made this choice for myself long time ago.

 

[drkhalsa]

Ditto. I am Vegetarian myself & was not told to do so by Panj Piyare. Living with the vegetarian family; I made this choice for myself long time ago.

Dear prabjot kaur ji


This means that even panj pyaras are not doing their work properly so does this mean that they should be corrected as they are wrong or you mean to say that you dont care what they say

 

[truthseeker]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!

GushK ji has a very good point,

How many ppl here would be able to honestl say that they could go out and kill an animal just to satisy there hungry? We eat because he have to to survive, but then shouldnt we just eat what we need, not what we feel like. If u were in the middle of a jungle then of course u would have to eat sum kind of animal but now adays we have everything at our convienece so y eat a poor inocent animal when we could eat vegetables, lentil etc... We do not NEED meat to survive.

One may say 'We need to have protein" and that it tru but you can eat lentils, tofu and even soya products that will give that. In the end the choice is up to the individual but they should think how would they feel if they were that animal being killed just becuase someone else felt like eating it?

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguur ji ki fateh!

 

[Prabjyot Kaur]

Dear prabjot kaur ji


This means that even panj pyaras are not doing their work properly so does this mean that they should be corrected as they are wrong or you mean to say that you dont care what they say

DrKhalsa ji,
Panj Piyare very much are guru-roop and are doing their work properly. They follow the rehat Maryada as per SGPC Rehat Maryada; which prohibits 'kutha' only and does not ask you to stop eating all kind of meat and eggs too.

Prabhjot

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Brother Arvind Singh Ji and sister P Kaur
do not take das as wrong as Das may sound offense but this directed towards often some people who come in our way to do something for Panth.
Here 'you' word is in Genral sense and should be taken as 'someone' and it is not at all a personal offense.
Das do respect the Vegitarian ploicy of Nirmalas,Damadami Taksal,Akhand Kirtani Jatha,Nanaksar,Rara Sahib and others.

But Das is rather sad that actual meaning of his views was changed.

From here does Das starts :-


Eating is not for taste but to live.To live we do kill plants.Science has proven that plants also have life and emotions.The instrument made by Jagdessh Chandra Basu showed that even if the gardener wasd hurt,Respiration of plant was increased.

If no nerves then does not means that it is without life and feeling.Science is still to get what Gurmat got during the time of Gurus.God is in All.And life is in Andaz,Jeraz,Setaz and Utbhoj.One of them is plant kingdom.

And what about killing an animal who has a nerous brreakdowen or whose nerves we can make numb before killing(This is anyway not needed in Jatka)
Khalsa is Raj Yog,the suprereme union,Here we are not the doer buy God Akal is doer.Karta mean doer and creator both.In Karam Yoga me may have deeds but in Khalsa order it is Karmu(mercy) in Arebic and not deeds (Karma) of Sanskrit.

Your deeds are Mercy(Karmu) By Akal and not your Karma.

JapuJI Sahib say,In order/control(of God) are all,Out of control is none,Says Nanak,who understand control does not say/feels Haumai(ego).

In Jains or in our own class of some Sikh ego is more strong in the one not eating meat then one eating meat.Because they still have a sense of doer.And that if you say that you are a doer then you are having a dualist or Dwait feeling called Duja Bhav in Panth.

Think self,food or any thing other then called or feeling there is something second from first(God) is Duja Bhav,till we have it,It will not let us atain Realisation of Truth.(our Salvation is not mukti type of hindus but it is love to the lotus feet of God).

God has compeeled us to eat life,as plant,As microbes in air we breath or water we drink.Water which we drink after purification as a good lot of dead organisams,If God has kept us compelled then how can we librate ourself by being selective in food and with hope of doing good and salvation.

hope or action are not in Sikhism but more in jainism.We only have faith and divine knowledge given to us by Akal.

Das statrted the topic related to beef and as usual meat issue came there a few things das will put from there also.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikhphilosophy/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=5171

In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242

here it is only symbol to cruppt practice,Term Maass(Meat) is not used but term Murdar(Dead) is used. In India so called lower classes/castes are hated as they eat dead(died of natural death,In Sura 2 of holy Kuran for Muslim eating Murdar(Dead) animal is prohibbited,Same is in jews,Some Nihung too do not eat Dead(There is a great diiference between dead and killed for eating)).
das is will given the correct and full meaning below.
slok mÚ 1 ] (1242-18)
salok mehlaa 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:
kil hoeI kuqy muhI Kwju hoAw murdwru ] (1242-18, swrMg, mÚ 1)
kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.
Here You can see that food is terned as dead and not as meat.And as you see further it is said for wrong practises.
kUVu boil boil Baukxw cUkw Drmu bIcwru ] (1242-19, swrMg, mÚ 1)
koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.
They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.
belowAnd these are the Bad habits which Gurudev say.

ijn jIvMidAw piq nhI muieAw mMdI soie ] (1242-19, swrMg, mÚ 1)
jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.
Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.
Page 1243 iliKAw hovY nwnkw krqw kry su hoie ]1] (1243-1, swrMg, mÚ 1) likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay. ||1|| Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. ||1||kUVu Curw muTw murdwru ] (24-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.
Falsehood is my dagger; deception is carcasses of the dead.
Above a hundter/looter caste is made to explain a satate of mind(Sakhi even says that Gurudev might have taken such form to give a lesson).

Below there are versions which Clearly give the Differance between Dead (Murdar) and Meat(mass)
See the one underline.

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (15-2)
sireeraag mehlaa 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
lyKY bolxu bolxw lyKY Kwxw Kwau ] (15-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
laykhai bolan bolnaa laykhai khaanaa khaa-o.
As it is pre-ordained, people speak their words. As it is pre-ordained, they consume their food.
lyKY vwt clweIAw lyKY suix vyKwau ] (15-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
laykhai vaat chalaa-ee-aa laykhai sun vaykhaa-o.
As it is pre-ordained, they walk along the way. As it is pre-ordained, they see and hear.
lyKY swh lvweIAih pVy ik puCx jwau ]1] (15-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
laykhai saah lavaa-ee-ahi parhay ke puchhan jaa-o. ||1||
As it is pre-ordained, they draw their breath. Why should I go and ask the scholars about this? ||1||
bwbw mwieAw rcnw Dohu ] (15-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
baabaa maa-i-aa rachnaa Dhohu.
O Baba, the splendor of Maya is deceptive.
AMDY nwmu ivswirAw nw iqsu eyh n Ehu ]1] rhwau ] (15-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
anDhai naam visaari-aa naa tis ayh na oh. ||1|| rahaa-o.
The blind man has forgotten the Name; he is in limbo, neither here nor there. ||1||Pause||
jIvx mrxw jwie kY eyQY KwjY kwil ] (15-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jeevan marnaa jaa-ay kai aythai khaajai kaal.
Life and death come to all who are born. Everything here gets devoured by Death.
ijQY bih smJweIAY iqQY koie n cilE nwil ] (15-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jithai bahi samjaa-ee-ai tithai ko-ay na chali-o naal.
He sits and examines the accounts, there where no one goes along with anyone.
rovx vwly jyqVy siB bMnih pMf prwil ]2] (15-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
rovan vaalay jayt-rhay sabh baneh pand paraal. ||2||
Those who weep and wail might just as well all tie bundles of straw. ||2||
sBu ko AwKY bhuqu bhuqu Git n AwKY koie ] (15-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
sabh ko aakhai bahut bahut ghat na aakhai ko-ay.
Everyone says that God is the Greatest of the Great. No one calls Him any less.
kImiq iknY n pweIAw khix n vfw hoie ] (15-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
keemat kinai na paa-ee-aa kahan na vadaa ho-ay.
No one can estimate His Worth. By speaking of Him, His Greatness is not increased.
swcw swhbu eyku qU hoir jIAw kyqy loA ]3] (15-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
saachaa saahab ayk too hor jee-aa kaytay lo-a. ||3||
You are the One True Lord and Master of all the other beings, of so many worlds. ||3||
nIcw AMdir nIc jwiq nIcI hU Aiq nIcu ] nwnku iqn kY sMig swiQ vifAw isau ikAw rIs ] (15-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
neechaa andar neech jaat neechee hoo at neech. naanak tin kai sang saath vadi-aa si-o ki-aa rees.
Nanak seeks the company of the lowest of the low class, the very lowest of the low. Why should he try to compete with the great?
ijQY nIc smwlIAin iqQY ndir qyrI bKsIs ]4]3] (15-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jithai neech samaalee-an tithai nadar tayree bakhsees. ||4||3||
In that place where the lowly are cared for-there, the Blessings of Your Glance of Grace rain down. ||4||3||
isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (15-9)
sireeraag mehlaa 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
lbu kuqw kUVu cUhVw Tig KwDw murdwru ] (15-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.
Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

See here Murdar is used
pr inMdw pr mlu muK suDI Agin k®oDu cMfwlu ] (15-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal.
Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.
rs ks Awpu slwhxw ey krm myry krqwr ]1] (15-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar. ||1||
I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator! ||1||
bwbw bolIAY piq hoie ] (15-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay.
O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.
aUqm sy dir aUqm khIAih nIc krm bih roie ]1] rhwau ] (15-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep. ||1||Pause||
rsu suienw rsu rupw kwmix rsu prml kI vwsu ] (15-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas.
The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,
rsu GoVy rsu syjw mMdr rsu mITw rsu mwsu ] (15-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas.
the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet and the pleasure of meat
As you could see thats the difference.
eyqy rs srIr ky kY Git nwm invwsu ]2] (15-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas. ||2||
-these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart? ||2||
ijqu boilAY piq pweIAY so boilAw prvwxu ] (15-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan.
Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.
iPkw boil ivgucxw suix mUrK mn Ajwx ] (15-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan.
Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!
jo iqsu Bwvih sy Bly hoir ik khx vKwx ]3] (15-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan. ||3||
Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said? ||3||
iqn miq iqn piq iqn Dnu plY ijn ihrdY rihAw smwie ] (15-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay.
Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.
iqn kw ikAw swlwhxw Avr suAwilau kwie ] (15-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay.
What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?
nwnk ndrI bwhry rwcih dwin n nwie ]4]4] (15-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay. ||4||4||
O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name. ||4||4||


Das is not encouraging Non Veg but is totaly against the misinterpreting of Gurbani.Ram Rai was shunned and another Sikh during the time of Tenth Guru was beaten,Legend Say that Bhai Mani Singh went to Shaheedi as he seperated Bani of different Gurus From holy Granth so he paid by seperation of body parts.
(Das may be wrong for last instance).

so as per above verses,Guru is just trying to tell that real dead eating and mater of hate are wrong deeds.Das here want to put forth that dead eating lower castes are hated by upper caste and Guru said that by eating they are not Bad but by doing wrong by anyone is Bad.(incidently das has seen may so called Sikhs who hate non vegitarians but do eat murdar by cheating others.)

Lets see taste factor in the same verse Above Guru says

Pleasure is in Horse riding,houses,wealth,Women(for men),Sweet and meat.So did Sikhs are forbiddan to ride horse or to marry or to attain wealth or house or to eat sweet(Karrah Prasad is sweet) So why is meat forbbidddan.

Gurudev might have had all the pleasure(Ras) so does he says that they are in body.This also prove that he might have had the taste of meat and pleasue from it.If Guru is saying then what is wrong.

Eating for Taste is wrong be it sweet or be it wheat or be it meat. And it is overcome by saying that eater is God only and God is the Bhukta(Japu Sahib). May be Vegitarians miss the taste of meat or have a sort of Trishna(want) for that taste so they tend to think that we eat it for taste.

What taste a boiled pork with salt give on hills or snaowy areas,It gives instant diestable fat to warm body where we do not have electricity or heating arrangement.People who have no military expirance may say
such thing by Giving exceptions but as rule it is impossible for a normal man to live without meat in war or in hard labouer else he/she may liqur.
Many saint do not eat meat,School of Das ie Nirmalas as well as others like Damdami Taksal(There also meat is not sin if nothing edible is to be fouond),Sewa Panthis or Udasis to do not eat meat.Reason is to maintain the heat(of desire) which meat increses but same repruductive fluid of male 's count can increse with chocolates ,peanuts etc.But what abouot the one living in extereme cold or heavy labour or in battlefileds.Das challenge any of Vegitarin supporting Sikh Let him show his/her sternght,let him/her join Army or Hard labouor task where one is exposeed to the vaguries of Nature.Then give Das an answer,People say that saint was seen moving in cold snow of Canada but deers also roam who eat grass as Saint is also vegitarian.But what about wolfs over there who are much more capable to kill the deer.

There are many babas,who want to keep sangat repeat Wahiguru,Wahiguru,Without knowing what is Sabad Guru,They misqoute Gurbani as they want to compete with Sabad Guru(Guru in the form of word) Examples are Baniari,Nirnakri,Asutoos,Radhswamis etc.etc.

such guys are made by Akal to misguide Sikhs into Duja bhav.They help hindtuva in Panth's intrusion.Casue diifernt Code and couse division in Panth.

Das too is from Nirmalas but they have faith in Akal and Guru Granth Ji.

Often when old stories related to Gurus are told in Gurudwaras and use of meat is there,they scip it.

They do not eat meat as they do not fight often they are unamarried.

They belive in caste,Pictures of Gurus ,Gurbani to be used as spell and even dead,Is this Gurmat.

Do Sikhs also be like sheep which eat grass.Or do they be like lion.

And what about animal right terrorists or hitler or RSS people who do not eat meat but are mercyless to man.Some of our so Called Sikh even kill or beat a man who does not belive in vewgitarianism.So is this the peace of mind does vegitarianism gives??

But coming Back to history,In Vichetra Natak,Gurudev himself wrote,it was a narration and he told that he killed Blue bull,Swamp Deer etc.Never it is mentioned that any salvation was behind this.

Let us talk of Salvation.Animal which will be killed for the consumption of Khalsa,The special form of Tenth Nanak or Animal or Plant killed by Khalsa may not that also be librated from birth(yoni) of 'lower form',Who says that animal or plants are lower,Jains or Christians.Singh sees Akal in All,All have Akal equally in all.

Das at end comes on history,

When Second Nanak met Third Nanak first,In Langer meat was served,Third Nanak was a Vaishnav,Who do not eat meat,He said if this Guru is true,I will not be served the meat.Guru told the serving person to not to serve him meat.

Next day in langer again meat was served.This time just to test the faith of New Sikh Baba AmerDas Ji,Guru Angad Dev Ji made him to eat meat.
(Vegis of present day tend to skip or fabricate about this Sakhi,This is falsehood and they will pay for it as a rebirth)

Das has carefully studied the Mangal Prakash Granth at the time of Tenth Guru,There were 500 Testomonis but only 100 at a time are clibbed togather,
Hense called Sau Sakhi.

Many stouch vegitarian Sikhs belive in forecaste of future done in them but they ignore a lot of history wriitenn in there.

At one epsode of Brahmins eating meat Gurudev himself said,'My Sikh can eat meat but Brahmin must not'.Das is not a Brahmin.Sikh Bhai Alam Singh was having Brahmin forefathers,But as he was Sikh he was allowed to eat meat.

History OK,There is Sahki of Bhai Shameer Jatt of perhaps present day KOt Shammer,Gurudev Gives him part of his(Gurudevs) food as a blessing to be eaten to get salvation.That food contained Maha Prasad of Jhatka.So Shmeers Maternal uncle did not let them eat as he worshipped dead peers of Muslims and non Halal food was not allowed.

When Gurudev went to the Garden of MadhoDAs Bairagi,Who later becaem Gurbux Singh Banda Bahadur,Guru let his female deer(doe) and 2 pet Goat(number may be wrong) get killed and cooked.He also wanted to brake the Duja Bhav or ego of Banda.(Present vegis say Guru only destroyed the Garden it is a lie,as there mann(mind) does not belive so they tend to follow mann so they are mannmukh)

There was a Bania Sikh too in the time of Gurudev ,who did not like meat eating guru and failed the test.(Sau Sakhi)

In book of Sohan Singh Sheetal,Sikh Raj Kiven Banya,State abouot Bandai Khalsa ,who belived Banada as there Guru,Grasseater(Vegi) is Habitually less fighter and thence Bandai took more to the care taking of gurudwaras as a Mahants.

Today too most vegies live in cocoon or yoke of Past glory of my father was king(pisram Sulatan bood)About future they are oblivious and tend to live in four wall of Gurudawaras.

About Nihungs taking drugs or alchohal,They are against addiction but in real simulated War(Halla) unlike the play of child which is called Gatka,In True Shaster Vidya,Injuris are real and even fatal if fight is one horse.Till painkiller is not given it may not be done.Let some veg repeat what Nihungs do.

what about medicines like painkillers having many drugs in them or Alchola based homeophathy drugs or cough syrup.

Do not talk about operation blue star.It was a defensive operation by Sikhs.Nations are made by offensive missions.Indian forces left complex asfter they saw,that mat eating solodier of Indian army some of them were taking liqur too were rebeling,The Singhs all of them in complex too were vegitarian.

Babbers's front was broken in 5 hours and one of thier bibi surrendered with hands up.

This is disgracefull.

The first Sultan(King) of Sikh Jassa Singh Ahluwal,Use to eat a whole male goat and 1.5 ser of pucca butter at one time.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!

GushK ji has a very good point,

How many ppl here would be able to honestl say that they could go out and kill an animal just to satisy there hungry? We eat because he have to to survive, but then shouldnt we just eat what we need, not what we feel like. If u were in the middle of a jungle then of course u would have to eat sum kind of animal but now adays we have everything at our convienece so y eat a poor inocent animal when we could eat vegetables, lentil etc... We do not NEED meat to survive.

One may say 'We need to have protein" and that it tru but you can eat lentils, tofu and even soya products that will give that. In the end the choice is up to the individual but they should think how would they feel if they were that animal being killed just becuase someone else felt like eating it?

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguur ji ki fateh!

das want to make a point here,unlike the plant proteen,animal proteen get digested fast.Das had a typhoid,Hindu call it Matijhara Mata,

Das was on meat diet(it is a sin as per hindus) so he never had any problem to do day to day work as it got digested easyly else often hindus looses hairs or even feel every weak in similar ailament or even measal or chicken pox.

Pro Veg people first let it be wriitten of meat product,'injurious to health,' Like tobacco or liquer,Then das think on scientific line.

Rahter in India,high caste pagans who have intruded into Sikhism always use this weapon to manitain high seat in managaement committe,

They say Butchers or other meat eating Sikhs lower caste are not Sikhs at all.
They even do not allow Gurbani to run in Butchers shop(one of The Saint Sadhana,whose Bani is in Adi Guru Darbar,Was incidently a butcher).

There are many poors in India,Who are neo Sikhs,They get cheap proteen as dead animals or goat mear by product or pork.Why should there be a bondage on them.